I say the devs are a bunch of tits for even considering such a stupid achievement in the first place.

@Witzbold: I say gamers are a bunch of tits for caring so much about achievements and going out of their way to get them. I mean, come on, if you're playing a game, you're bound to kill yourself and a teammate during a match at some point, by mistake. And in any match you're likely to get at least 1 creature and enemy kill. So eventually, people would just unlock the achievement by chance. If gamers are so ridiculous about achievement hunting that they feel that anytime anybody plays the game there'd be people purposefully killing themselves and their teammates so they can get a couple of measley gamerscore points... that's a bit sad, in my opinion. On the other hand, I like the idea of people getting an achievement for something they wouldn't expect. Like in F.E.A.R. there was an achievement for finishing a match with a negative score, I believe. Something like that. It wasn't worth any points, though. Maybe that would've been a better solution, just make it a patch that reduces the points earned for the achievement to zero and then add the points it originally had available on to some other achievement.

I dont't think it was as much about gamers feeling bad about it, than the fact that it ruined online gameplay.

Teamkilling is a big enough annoyance already, so for a developer to encourage it is really strange.

If they made the achievement in single-player... Well, that would be a different and more interestning story.

@Witzbold: Agreed, very ill-advised.

Bit of a non-issue for me either way, as I have no intention on playing this tosh based on what I experienced in the demo.

@Witzbold:
witzbold as sharp and fast, very very fast, as ever

If this achievement was worth x,000+ points, there wouldn't have been so many complaints. In fact, people would buy this game simply to raise their gamertag.

Why not just remove team kills all together?

@vonk: You know, the only time I've ever been concerned about my gamerscore was when old spice gave out contra for getting 1,000 points. I suffered through king kong and got a free game. other than that, i think i'm still below 3000. i play the games for fun, i don't go out of my way to let people know at a glance how much i play.

I play for fun too, and getting achievements is fun.

@baked ham: Its not the points but the idea of rewarding the already rampant idiocy.

We have enough problems as is without letting the score whores get rewarded for being fuckwits.

My statement still stands that the devs are fucking idiots for having put it into the game in the first place.

Its almost as if they have never played online FPSes with FF on and had to deal with some muppet TKing everyone at the start of the match constantly.

Dude, calm down... They made a mistake. Taking out your angst on the people posting here won't solve anything. Just make your comment, point out what bugs you, then your done...

@Witzbold:

Might as well release a Counterstrike: Source for the 360 and have an achievement for flashing your entire team in a 20v20 match, right? ;D

@Witzbold: Well, if you remove the points, but leave the "achievement" (thereby making it somewhat of a mark of shame, in fact), you remove any connotation of "reward." That was the main idea of my point, I'm okay with them having put it in to begin with, and I'm okay with them listening to people's complaints, and I'm okay with people complaining. But I think if you're going to leave in the achievement, but take out the teamkill and just have suicide remaining as a prerequisite, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

It'd be far better if they just left the achievement as is and remove the points, or make it worth 1 point or something (because you do have to accomplish something to get it, it's not good enough to just kill yourself, by the rules of the achievement, you still have to at least break even in the match by getting 2 legit kills, and in the original case, 2 negative kills). I don't think it's really that stupid of an idea, but it ain't a good one either. I'm neutral to it. I may have more of an objection if it were Halo 3 or Call of Duty 4, but honestly... does anybody really think Turok is going to be all that good?

@baked ham: This isnt about if Turok will be popular or not, its about a fucking idiotic decision made by devs who were obviously high on something hence that it made it into the final code and needs to be patched out.

Suicide harms nobody but yourself in game.

Team killing ruins the experience for others in the game.

If you cant understand something that simple we have nothing more to talk about.

@Witzbold: It's not that I don't understand it, good sir. I just don't see why it's worth getting so incensed about. I was merely trying to make two points:

a) that if gamers care so much about those achievements to purposefully kill themselves & their teammates to get it, rather than just playing and enjoying the game... it's a bit of a sad state that the community has devolved into. When did it become more important to play for bragging rights than for fun?

and b) the developer did not fix the problem appropriately, because they're still encouraging suicide.

reward for team kill is awesome. They should have kept it. I'm sure people will buy Turok just for that.

I thought it was a clever achievement -- after all, it's ONE FREAKING MATCH. They should have kept it.

the team kill achievement sounds good, but patch out killing a teammate and leaving in 'kill yourself'?

i guess its better to take your own life than someone elses?

it's gonna be easy to find an enemy around my town, and it would be easy to find a teammate also, but it's gonna be hard to find a creature / dinosaur around here. but good thing i could find myself, but i still won't be able to complete the 'real-life' achievement, dang it.

it's just a game, i don't understand all the politicking, governmental and control issues surrounding gaming. it's just ridiculous.

Points are a badge of honor. Not for me, but for many people. Killing team mates is stupid, but attach enough points to it and wham! stupid people will play.

@Witzbold:
"Fucking Idiots" wow very eloquent especially from some one who is supposed to be a moderator or whatever your title is.........classy. Getting a little worked up there witz? An achievment they thought some people would like they were wrong and are now taking it out. Rough day? Don't get your panties in a bunch.

Welcome to a world where online gaming is serious fucking business.

I remember when games used to be fun and played for amusement value, now it's all achievements and K/D ratios.

Having people on your team commiting suicide doesnt sound so great either. This is just a dumb achievement.

@ftgf: I call it like I see it. Since they had more than enough time to leave it out of the code when it was first announced they were going to put it in.

The response was highly negative for obvious reasons.

I`d love to see a negative acheivement. Have "Team Killer, kill X team mates" be worth -10 points. That way anybody who gets X amount of team kills with never be able to reach 1000GS.

@kneehighspy: This isn't a social or political issue, and the big bad guv'mnt isn't making them change anything. Simply: who would want to play a game that encourages you to work against your team? They might as well have called it the Griefer achievement.

@Witzbold:
Fair enough...............don't ban me.........:)

@Witzbold: Highly negative cos there are lots out there who methodically hunt down every last achievement to increase their gamerscore, yeah.

Which isn't a bad thing, but I don't think the devs realised that until the backlash started. The way I see it, they figured that TK'ing happens, it'll be neat to somehow incorportate that into an achievement.

Just be glad they weren't "fucking idiots" enough not to listen to what the good people had to say :)

@Clushje: Agreed.

Im all for creative achievements but ones that would reward people for causing trouble to others in game isnt a good idea. They really must have been scraping the bottom of the barrel if thats all they could have come up with.

Dude, team killing is so much fun, if done carefully.

I hate people who spam teamkill.

And if they allow team killing, have anti TK measures (like 3 tk's and a 15 min ban...)

@Witzbold: TK'ing isn't necessarily causing trouble. If you're on a server with a bunch of your friends, and you tk one just cause. Is that causing trouble?

@Witzbold: I'm with Baked Ham. I understand everything that's at play here, I just don't understand why people are getting so incensed about it. Frankly, that strikes me as the idiotic part. It just doesn't seem like that big of a deal, particularly in the context of a Turok game of all things.

Good grief, it's gotten to the point where people are treating on-line play like some sort of sport...or even worse like some sort of gospel...or even worse than that, some sort of adequate replacement for a robust single player experience and split-screen multiplayer in the presence of others.

Aww, whiny gamers ruin everything.
It would be a pretty amusing acheivement if you were playing with your real friends (maybe not at the time your screen blacks out, but later...)

"Dude... what the hell was that!!!"

@Nightshift_Nurse: I'd also add that while it may not have been the greatest game ever made, offing your teammates was an integral part of the multiplayer experience of Kane and Lynch. And that was the only portion of the game that received any sort of across the board praise.

I'm sure there would have been ways to keep the achievement intact without completely spoiling the game for those who took offense.

@Nightshift_Nurse:
Yes we should protest by team killing anyways!

@Nightshift_Nurse: Its what the general public wants. And unfortunatly they greatly outnumber those of us who want a more proper SP experience.

Not to mention the general public is where all the $$$ is instead of the old schoolers.

Devs will be forced to go where the market is which is why so many games have MP in them. It is unfortunate when companies tend to put too much effort into the MP side screwing over the SP side, but its a reflection of what the market wants.

I mean just look at the backlash games get when theres no onlne co-op. Or a proper MP mode.

I have a bad habit of team killing, but only if it's my best friend, Ben.

He knows it's all about the love.

@Witzbold: Tell me about it. I think gamers hit an all time low when they complained about the lack of an on-line mode in Heavenly Sword.

Makes me wonder if anyone will bitch about the same thing in Devil May Cry 4...

For as much as I loathe Halo, I'll give Bungie credit for not tossing SP out the window. Insomniac too.

Like I have been saying in other threads, people take this hobby way to seriously. Take a deep breath guys it is not the end of the world.

I would give anything to get a reward for team killing, its such a shame the devs pussed out and are going to remove that, such a shame because at times you have idiots on your team and what better way to be rewarded then by killing them. So the score may be set back or we may lose the match but getting that team kill is all worth it, bunch a pussies those devs are that they listened to the whiners about no team killing requirement. I am sure in a few months those same whiners will be begging for the achievement back.

I totally agree with Ham. It is up to gamers to decide what achievements are worth going for or stooping down to. Witz seems to be under the impression that developers shouldn't even consider mentioning team killing, totally ignoring the fact that it is actually up to the gamer to go do it.

Guess what - there is an achievement for failing a song on easy in GH2. Guess what else - I never went for it.

I also think hams argument was much more level headed and in general stands more solid, while Witz is just lashing out with tons of expletives off-the-hip commentary that suggests gamers are too stupid to decide whether or not an achievement is worth going for. And I also totally agree that it is ridiculous when anyone, including you, can get so worked up over a friggin achievement. If you don't like it, don't play it.

Also - Witz makes it sound like the achievement devolves into everyone camping at their own base killing everyone who spawns. Its ONE friggin kill, not a jim jones cult style massacre back at the camp. I hate to be the bearer of logic, but a: team kills happen sometimes anyways (accident or not), and B: it doesn't ruin the game - it is simply a minor inconvenience.

Similar to Ham, I don't necessarily think it was a brilliant idea, but outright calling the developers a "bunch of tits" simply because some guy in a backroom came up with what he thought was a creative achievement is simply ignorant.

I have a feeling most of the people who got so angry about this aren't even going to playing the game. It was just another god damned soapbox for a buncha overzealous gamers to jump on and somehow feel as though they just made the world a better place.... **rolls eyes**

Just one more thought:

So many people complain about the repetetive, flash-in-the-pan, cookie cutter nature of games these days. Yet a majority of those people scream for online multi-player...the only time gaming genuinely includes an expiration date. Remember Phantasy Star Online? Played it online lately?

It's sad that so many people are clamoring for features that will make much or all of a game unplayable in two to five years time when a fickle marketplace has moved on to the "bigger, better game".

Warhawk is a good time. People love the game and I'll admit that a huge aerial dogfight is a lot of fun. But the exclusion of bots means that once those servers go down or the games popularity dips, the likelihood of ever seeing a crowded map again is pretty remote. And it makes the inclusion of four-player split-screen totally pointless.

And good god, what about all the effort that's put into and ultimately wasted by developers on games (or portions therein) that will be all but inaccessible in what frequently amounts to a few short years?

I recognize that there are some games like Starcraft and Counter Strike which have been around for years, but overall the amount of energy spent in development, complaint, or practice seems wasted on so much of what's out there.

The silence and/or unusable nature of so many modes and games produced in the last generation or so of gaming (a number which will only grow) is a phenomenon which I'm sure will become the topic of some serious discussion a few years down the road...once gamers stop and look around, and realize just how vast digital landfills have become.

Sad to see that people too up themselves to enjoy themselves can ruin a great achievement idea like this.

@exo: TKing never was something that the online community has considered fun or amusing.

Never give rewards to those who do the wrong thing. Its that simple.

Not to mention not all the new players are going to know about the TK achievement and imagine how irritated they will get when folks on their own team start killing eachother.

Since the game isnt exactly a halo or cod4, we can already assume the community wont be that large either. Unless the gameplay is so damned good that it will be able to pull folks away from the big 2. Now having something that rewards TKing is just a good way to help lower your own online userbase, by irritating players.

Its fucking common sense people.

I wouldnt call a TK achievement "creative" either. Since there is a GOOD REASON why other devs have not done it by now.

They all knew its a BAD IDEA.

@Witzbold:
Since when is "sense" common. Like you who likes to use such mighty fine words to describe the developer and the situation. Do you have some personal investment in this? Sorry I'm not trying to pick on you but I just think your response was childish. I also think exo is right and I think it would have been interesting to see how the community would have handled the achievment. It's just common sense not to let an achivement in a game get the best of you.

not once have you addressed the oft mentioned point of making it a zero point achievement - which in itself would NOT encourage TKing. If anything it would be a mark of guys to NOT let on your team.

And again, you make it sound like a giant team massacre.

I'm tempted to buy this game now simply to sit at my base and kill every guy on my team as many times as I possibly can just to undo all the bitching and moaning the "self policing gamers" have achieved.

@ftgf: If you cant figure that out for yourself Im not going to bother explaining it to you.

I acutally thought that was the only interesting part of the game. Sure if CoD4 or something had it, that would be bad. Who's going to be acutally playing this game though? Might as well be a little creative with the achievements for the people who do, since I bet anyone playing this game will be high (which surprisingly raises your tolerance of bad videogames considerably), and they'd tk without even knowing it at some point.