wow, just wow.

Oblivion, Bioshock and now Fallout 3... sigh.

...Why the fuck would he say that?

At this point he's just inviting Fallout devotees to come to Bethesda's office torch-and-pitchfork style.

Of course Bioshock feels a bit llke systemshock, it practically is systemshock.

PC is sadly dead at this point, so I guess that's not so surprising.

So, I've never play a Civ game before and want to get into the series. Should I wait for the possibly dumbed down one for consoles or buy one of the older games?

(Random moment over)

wow, advancement in graphics, but dumbing down in gameplay, imagination, and idea's. I should just stick to old games where it was more complex now as they were then.

To quote Witz from another post, "This isn't going to end well".

@t0yrobo: Bioshock's a clear descendent and a great game, but System Shock was more complex and (for its time) a far more innovative title.

As for Emil, he's right. For most developers, it seems the consoles simply offer them a better chance at making money. I too used to be a hardcore PC gamer, until finally the Dreamcast and then the Xbox convinced me that I could get graphics that were just as good, for less money, elsewhere. Now that the era of HDTV has begun, it's become even more apparent that the relatively minor graphical and control improvements, and the ever-more-limited selection of exclusive titles gained by gaming on a PC just aren't worth the massive financial investment required to keep up with the Joneses.

Of course, Starcraft 2 hasn't come out yet. Ask me to think again then and I may come to a different conclusion...

@doctorwily: Yeah... just...yeah...

PC is for porn...But, I actually have some good movies on my ps3...which I got from my PC, so, yeah, porn...

@freakout: I'm starting to feel the same way =\.. Though the computer I built a year ago is still doing great, the selection of quality titles is becoming shorter.. But, we always have Blizzard and Valve to look forward to! Their games usually work well with older computers anyways...

as a hardcore console gamer, please, please dumb it down for us, Bethesda! our oafish hands can only handle controllers with 10 buttons and 2 sticks or so, and if there's a lotta readin' and shit, can we skip that and just go online fragging?! that'd be awesome!

also, could someone maybe read me the tutorial when its ready? im looking at maldron here. thanks guys!

So they haven't dombed down Fallout 3.....much, is that what he's saying? I suppose you could call it 'streamlining the gameplay experience'.

*dumbed down

(I should really get some sleep)

I actually didnt like Bioshock. In terms of gameplay it was a stepback from System Shock 2 because I hate console-type menus and controls(and the unreal tournament-type respawning. WTF?).

These are just annoying for PC gamers.

Looks like Fallout 3 is also doomed for me :(

@MasterDex: More like he's saying quit accusing them of dumbing it down, because this is a console game too, and they've gotta worry about making it too complex for them.

He's trying for the best of two worlds. He doesn't want to dissapoint the original fans, but he wants to make a good game for the masses as well. I'd say he's got balls.

He could've just said "we're in the console business now" and walked away.

PC's almost dead, people. Let's move along, shall we?

I'm sad and disappointed. It'll be a good game, but--as I think I've said before--it won't be a Fallout game. Sigh.

However, think about this: while some of us might be disappointed at this kind of talk, think about how Obsidian must feel. I can only imagine much breast-beating, gnashing of teeth, and general homicidal hatred emanating from the heart of the ol' Black Isle crew.

@JustThisGuy: What happened to all the ex-trokia people anyway?

Luke i don't know your favourite game but lets just say that its Halo.

You absolutely lurv Halo and Bungie. Whenever you sit down infront of Halo you enter an euphoria. Every step you take you continue to be amazed at the wonderful game you favourite developer Bungie has created. The graphics, physics, music, gunplay, AI, depth, design, dialogue, story etc.

You dream about a sequel every night for years.

But then four years later Microsoft sacks the entire Bungie staff. Their games were to deep for the mainstream and didn't sell well enough. So your seriously bummed out and your hoping that one of the companies that the fired Bungie guys created or maybe some other great developer like Infinity Ward would make a awsome sequel someday.

Another year passes and you find out that Nintendo has bought the license.
Your a bit sceptical at first but they made Metroid and stuff so you calm yourself.

A couple of years later Nintendo starts to realese screenshots and info about the game but oh wait its Master. Cheif's Toe Training: How Old Are Your Toes?

Your severely disappointed and you vent your concern on some gaming forum only to be told that your a nerd an elitist a fanboy and old.

Fallout 3 will be a awsome game, almost certainly RPG-OTY might even be better than the previous games.
I'm just tired of being called a rabid fanboy as soon as i express scepticism about it. Either way mods fixed Oblivion and they can fix this too.

I don't see why playing a console cannot be for the hardcore gamer crowd just as much as the casual gamers.

My flatmate is very much a casual gamer.
I am very much what you consider a hardcore gamer.
The difference I see when we are playing games are quite funny actually.

If I buy a game, I'll complete it, then move on.
If he buys a game, he'll get 3/4 the way through and then get distracted by the next game.

I listen to the story and watch the cutscenes.
He skips them all and gets angry if he can't and asks me what to do because he didn't pay attention.

I look for hidden stuff and side missions. Trying to get every bit of story or gameplay out of the game that I can.
He follows the arrow like a donkey with a carrot in front of his nose.

Just as an example, playing Bioshock, he took about 8 hours. I took about 15. The end of the game for him was when he found out who Atlas really was. He didn't like it after that because all his hard earned plasmids went screwy.

@Spoit: Well, the three founders--and main minds behind the original Fallout--are still in the industry. Boyarsky's at Blizzard, Anderson is working for Interplay again (on the Fallout MMO, most likely--SQUEE!!!), and Cain's at NCSoft. The rest of their staff (which was relatively small to being with) scattered to the winds, but a good chunk of 'em ended up at Obsidian.

I've actually heard that the word around Obsidian is that YOU DO NOT TALK ABOUT THE BETHESDA GAME THAT IS EMPHATICALLY NOT FALLOUT. Apparently, there are still a few folks who are quite sore over the issue.

Fucking dumb mass gamers,

I don't mind them dumbing down a game for console gamers but put in the options for turn the retard mode off for real games players, oblvion was a yawn fest.

@Spoit: Oh, and an interesting tidbit: Fallout 3's intro song is "I Don't Want to Set the World on Fire", by the Ink Spots. Originally, BIS wanted to use this track for Fallout 1, but couldn't due to one asinine issue or another.

While I'm fairly certain that Bethesda chose this song as a tribute or a knowing wink to the fanbase, the news apparently hit Boyarsky, Cain and Anderson like a kick to the balls. They were furious when they heard about it.

Mind you, none of this is sourced, and this is all hearsay from an ex-Troika now-Obsidian staffer (and my current significant other). I thought it was interesting enough to share, regardless.

Thanks for the info Justthisguy

@jigglypoofs: ah elitism, fun stuff.

o well, won't bother to buy this game then. Dumbed down versions for the lose. Shame because had really high hopes for this game.

Sad how folks forget about their roots and passion. I own a 360 too, but I just love my PC and the games on my HDD (a rhyme, cool!)

why bother making fallout 3 if your not going to follow the pattern that made the original fallout a hit?

@will: You have a good point: Console games aren't inherently casual. Some are, sure, but I would argue a significant portion of console games allow for hardcore gamers to get their fix. Conversely, PC games aren't inherently for hardcore gamers. Bejeweled anyone?

Being a huge fan of the Fallout series, I'm definitely looking forward to numero tres. Bethesda has given us quality games in the past and based on everything I've heard I have no reason to think they won't continue to do so. Even if it's not their original franchise I think they have the ability to do it justice.

In the interview Pagliarulo says they realize there's a market for more hardcore RPGs on the console. Hopefully this means they'll try to keep Fallout 3 to the same level of "hardcoreness" as the original two. If it ends up being "dumbed down" to Oblivion's level I won't be disappointed. Any further and I probably will. Only time will tell.

Worst case I'll just have to wait until the Fallout MMO comes out.

@KroKan: Let's add on to the fire here. The things I absolutely detested about Bioshock are:

1). No inventory screen.

2). Way too much ammunition.

3). Lack of character development. The fact that I could do everything (hack, shoot, psi in SS2 terms) took a lot of the challenge away, I think.

4). How my death merely led to the respawn chamber a few yards away, and the enemies DID NOT REGENERATE THEIR HEALTH. You could just blunt force your way through the entire game like this.

5). Re-use of the Shodan plot-twist, nearly word-for-word.

And etc. etc. etc.

In the next Bioshock, I want to be put into situations where I might have to run away from a large mob of goons. I don't like how I didn't have to worry about things like that, as I can't think of any situation in the game where I couldn't step in on full-auto with my machine gun and plasmids, fully confident that no enemy posed any threat to me whatsoever.

@mondog: Because then all the rabid fans would complain its too cookie cutter?

whats wrong console gamers

the game is too DERP for you?

@jigglypoofs: boy, i wish i was a real gamer! then i could bitch about things like retard mode without having to explain a thing.
you guys have it made!
me, im just gonna go drink some moutain dew and call people on halo 3 fagasaurus rex.

@Waldo2129:

As a rabid fan I'd be more happy with an isometric/top down turn based RPG style Fallout than a first/third person sudo RPG like Bioshock, which to be honest is one of the most overated games I've ever played.

'The same allegations were levelled against Oblivion, if I remember correctly.'

And they were true. Oblivion was very much dumbed down when compared to Morrowind. And the interface for Oblivion was bottle-necked by a menu system obviously designed with a console in mind. The gameplay was more simplistic, and, of course, there was a scaling system with mobs that I utterly detested.

Honestly, I think Morrowind was a better game than Oblivion in every respect except graphics.

This, however, has nothing to do with making money. Money-generation and quality of gaming experience are not necessarily directly related to one another. There are, for example, a lot of pop singers these days who make a lot of money, but does that really mean they're excellent musicians? No, it could just mean that they look hot and have good PR.

It's undeniable that Oblivion made a lot of money. I can understand, from a *business* perspective, why companies are dumping the PC and going to Console releases. But from a purely gaming perspective? I don't think anyone is going to convince me that Consoles are a better platform for such games as RPGs and FPSes. Platform is determined by money-generation, though, not by which one can be used to create the best possible game / gaming envirornment, IMO.

@JustThisGuy:
I agree %100. Hope PC sales will increase this year and developers hear the cries of people like us.

After all how hard can it be to change a few of these console-related annoyances for the PC version?

@mondog: I agree with the Bioshock. It didn't strike my fancy at all.
However it seems everyone gets so uppity when games just copy what they previously did over and over. Then turn around wanting something new, but heaven forbid too new. I for one will most likely wait and see how it turns out before I go rushing to my local store to purchase it. While I do hate to see a great series reduced to this the best I can do is just not buy it I suppose. Until I play it myself I can't say whether or not it was a waste of a franchise.

This is not a surprise or a shock. PCs are MMOG boxes now, with the occasional RTS or 4X or anything else that doesn't quite work on the console.

I'd imagine even these are becoming less and less profitable. Even Civ is making its way to the consoles now, so looks like we're all doomed. Be interesting to see how well Starcraft 2 actually does with respect to similarily anticipated console titles.

The only things really keeping PC games going are games which require a lot of small legible text, or which require precise input devices like mice or keyboards. If your game can be designed an a manner that removes the need for either of these, you'd be fairly foolish not to considering the current market.

I loved Oblivion, and I've started playing it again recently on PC. But I've had to download about 5 different mods just to make the interface moderately useful. I mean seriously, with the amount of items you get in the game, whose idea was it to make only 5 appear at one time in your inventory?
That said, hopefully Bethesda have seen what the mod community has done with Oblivion and will apply some of that logical thinking to Fallout.

I like "Oblivium" because is such a obvious example of the pathology that we call "dumbed down games because consoles" that is really usefull.

If Fallout, version 3, gets dumbed down, It will be a sad day for all gamers, console and PC gamers.

There must be send a message to console players: Your input options are weak!!
Pads, weemote,.. are innapropiate input devices to make games, so games need to be dumbed down for players with that input devices. I laught in a very sad way at FPS titles designed for players that can't walk and aim at the same time, and need to have the Gears of War gameplay where you move OR shot.

I don't know why I'm bothering to write this since the people I'm addressing won't bother to read it. The point is that Fallout 3 (yes, it's a Fallout game too bad if you lost the license) can't be "dumbed down" because it is being developed for consoles and PC simultaneously. The developers are trying to walk a line between being overly complex or overly simplified.

Complaints are often lobbed at Bioshock but it's actually an example of a success story. Bioshock follows in the footsteps of System Shock but pairs down the formula; Bioshock removed much of the RPG elements in favor of a more streamlined FPS experience (Ken Levine tried to emphasize this but apparently no one listened). That might be a point of contention for the game being "dumbed down" but it removed elements that were unnecessary for the kind of story telling and gameplay they were looking for. Constantly pulling up menus to fiddle with inventory or assign points detracts from frenetic gameplay. The decision also removes some of the more punishing elements that locked players into a single "track" and set of behaviors. Bioshock allows players to experience a much larger portion of the game on a single play through than the System Shock games did. I'm not saying that one way or the other is better, but making these decisions isn't automatically dumbing the game down.

The PC isn't dead as a gaming outlet but it is severely hobbled by cost and complexity of upkeep. The PC may end up on top again some day but only if prices come down and choices become (ironically) less complicated.

I don't care if its dumbed down or not. All I want is a good game I can play on my 360 without needing some new fangled controller because the good ol' controller just doesn't have enough buttons. Give me a game that plays well on my 360, and the world will shower you in cash. And even more cash if you make an LE version too.

I'll wait and see what we actually get in the end, but it seems that us PC gamers will have to turn to the indie developers to get any kind of proper games now.

"People like myself and some people that work here actually grew up as hardcore PC guys, and now we're older, we have kids, we don't have that much time, so we've transitioned. We're console players now."

That's exactly how I feel. I still build a new PC every other year, so i can experience the leading edge of gaming on PC. But I spend the majority of my time just popping in a game and playing it on a console for an hour at a time.

@Tei: This is new nonsense. Interesting.

a) No controller limits your ability to both move and aim at the same time.

b) The "move or shoot" genre was on the PC, and for a time was pretty much PC-only. It's a concession to "realism" (which in GeoW elicits a chuckle, I know), designed to control the pace of a game and prevent a Quakeish fragfest.

@agies: You win.

However, I think most fallout fans would consider Van Buren the "real" vision and initial development of Fallout 3, and thus, having the current bethesda effort as a "dumbed down" game.

*Sigh* Frankly, all I need from my fallout are unhealthily high doses of good retrofuturistic apocalypse, black humor, a good story, and freedom to pursue choices, normal and bizarre alike.

The specifics of the SPECIAL system or the combat system, I can live with changes in that.

As long as Fallout 3 supports mods, fans will be able to fix most of the dumbing down anyway.

Still, Oblivion didn't feel all that dumbed down to me, with the exception of the menu that I fixed with a mod. If it becomes a problem, they could always have different gameplay modes, or make an expansion to add the features that were cut in order to streamline it for casual gamers.

@JustThisGuy: I could see why some people might be sad, since to them it's like they had to put their baby up for adoption, but it seems a little mean to vent that onto Bethesda, who is trying their best to stay true to the source material.

@agies: I remember reading about Levine stating things like that before BS was released. The issue I have, however, is that one should not tout their new game as the spiritual successor to such-and-such beloved franchise if you're going to strip the gameplay of the core elements that the franchise's fanbase loved so much. (Christ, apologies for the hideously long sentence.)

For example, the inventory system in SS2 could have been better, but it also made me think about what I want to carry and prioritize my decisions. Limiting me to a set of decisions (created by my own choices on how to use my skill points) made me think tactically about how to approach combat situations. It helped to create an environment of real fear and suspense, a sense that I just didn't get from BS's gameplay--which is why I was so disappointed in it. It's a fine, fine game in and of itself, but--to me--it didn't feel like the spiritual successor to SS2.

And I'm not sure if I'd call a franchise that was stripped from the original creators as an official title. Just to use some (very) popular examples: would you call a new Harry Potter book a Harry Potter book if the rights were somehow stripped from J.K. Rowling by her publishing house? Would anyone really be confident in the new Indiana Jones flick if both Spielberg and Ford weren't at the helm? While I think that we're essentially quibbling over semantics here, I tend to favor the authors in cases like these, both real and hypothetical. Once the material is removed from the creators' hands without their blessing or input, the results strike me as being no different than fan fiction.

That's partly why I'm so leery about Fallout 3. They don't have one ex-BIS staffer on board! I'd be much more comfortable with Bethesda's handling if I had the reassurances of someone like Cain or Avellone.

Well, I'm older and wiser and all this stuff too. However. Fallout 2 is the only game that I have still installed on the Mac Side of my laptop, so it's the game that's easiest to get to and I play the most.

@cordsie: Don't worry about starcraft 2 man. It's a blizzard game, it's going to sell exactly a billion copies.

Ugh.

This was my #1 concern about this Fallout title. Sad to say that pending a few reviews I may just skip this third installment.

"People like myself and some people that work here actually grew up as hardcore PC guys, and now we're older, we have kids, we don't have that much time, so we've transitioned. We're console players now."

So what about the new people growing up on games? They must feel like they're getting the shit end of the stick, constantly reading all these quotes from developers "dumbing down" games. Does no one think about them? Those selfish, selfish developers :P

Then again, since they've never properly experienced those games, I'm sure they're not too fussy.