@jettokisora:
Totally agree! I was trying to say that in my original comment, but you articulated it much better. :)

ca$h

I'm not trying to knock big studios like blizzard, maxis et al but the fact is that they don't make games for the same reasons.

It may be simplistic, but there's 2 'reasons' to make games. For the sales (pleasing investors) or for the players. Studios owned by larger corporations tend to the former as indie studios tend to the latter.

but as much as people here seem to want to go backpatting large studios, innovation isn't coming from them and I think that is the crux of chen's argument. If he was just in it to make something fun and violent, theres about 1000 fps teams he could try and get into. The point was that he wanted to do something new and unique and that isn't compatible with the current corporate vision of the gaming market.

We really should be more embracing the indie market, as this is where a majority of the new ideas (or recycled old ones) are coming from while big studios continue to pump out games that are more along the lines of Sandbox or FPS action clones with different story lines.

Hachi

Wolfers

On a related note, Atsushi Inaba, the Clover Studio producer responsible for Okami, has an interesting take on independent game development: [www.1up.com]
I'm curious to see what PlatinumGames dreams up for their next project.

Innovation is not a common force in this industry, but despite what GamaSutra would have you believe, it is not an exclusive fixture of student projects and XBLA games.

jettokisora

Warcraft, Starcraft, Diablo.

Sim series.

Final Fantasy.

Metal Gear.

Populous, Black and White.

These are just small examples of the games of the past 20 years which have come from developers who thought outside the box with their love of video games. Saying that independantly developed video games are better than companies funded by investors or corporations is wrong. It is a disrespect to people such as Sakaguchi, Kojima, Molyneux, Will Wright, the core development team of Blizzard, etc. Without people like them to bring the industry to the financially acceptable level it is now, a lot of us would probably not be playing the great games we are playing today; whatever you might fancy.

A game doesn't have to be 100% innovative to be a fun game or a stepping stone in video games' evolution. Can you really deny Starcraft's perfection in balance for example?

What Jenova is probably talking in terms of "easy" is joining a company to obtain a comfortable lifestyle is the obvious way to become a developer. Instead, he chooses to be independant to help expand the variety and visions of what a developer can have for video games. He just chose a DIFFERENT way to add to the industry; he's not choosing a necessarily better way.

Kuren

Shalashaska

It's possible, but I don't see it happening, for an indie game to convey the emotions of i.e FF7:CC, or present the experience of i.e Skate, or provide the masses with beautiful massive battles :)

somarix

jettokisora

Jnkzm4

Jenova seems to have fairly broken english and even in this small quote some of you aren't trying to understand what he is saying and are instead flaming him for what you believe you read the first time through. Furthermore, If you guys took the time to read the entire interview you will find that this quote is much longer and that Jenova loves the creativity that was present on the Spore team and that to this day he is not sure why he left it.

Ian342

What? Are you serious? Talk about Elitism. You basically just negated your whole point with that line. Again, I ask what's wrong with flash? Why do you look down on it? As someone who works on a game team, you of all people should understand that there are budgets to consider. For an indie team, flash is a viable option for getting a game created from both a financial choice, as well as a distributional aspect. What better way of getting thousands of people to play your indie title?
Look at The Behemoth guys, all flash created content, Alien Hominid started off as a flash game, and now they're making Castle Crashers, a highly anticipated title for XBLA.
Much like any field, the Tools are just as good as those who wield them.

Jettokisora, PM me your email and where you work, I wouldn't mind ripping you a new one in private.

opt2not

I don't mean any hostility toward Indie developers, but Chen's comments reek of the elitism so common among students coming out of academic game design programs. He speaks with an assumed authority about the development process, but if you read his comments about working on Spore, it sounds as if he wasn't satisfied with the comparatively small contribution each studio member makes to such an enormous project. Personally, I think that's the best part.

I didn't attend any game design school. I got where I am by creating mods in my spare time and jotting down design notes on napkins at restaurants. The studio that hired me out of college last year was independent a decade ago, and although it's evolved with the industry, the creative culture hasn't changed. And I count myself fortunate to be a part of it.

So I'm not taking any offense, but it's hard to sit by and listen to my industry being dismissed by a guy who makes flash games, y'know?

jettokisora

Xinghan Chen, also known as Jenova Chen,

It was in an interview that he took his name from the character in Final Fantasy VII

@jettokisora:

I'm speaking just in terms of what seems to be the average in bigger gaming companies owned by large corporations. I'm sorry if I directed my comment at you when I have no proof of such things.

MikeA

This is not the case. We're doing some truly amazing things with our financial resources. And how exactly does a large budget qualify as a drawback?

>

With a team of only eight people, I'm pretty sure they face some severe constraints on what they can produce.

>

Evidence...?

>

I'm not part of a "corporation." I'm part of a team of 100 talented individuals, nearly all of whom have great ideas every day. Our studio is owned and funded by a corporation. That is the extent of their involvement in the process.

Granted, our studio is unique in that creative power is almost totally vested in our design leads, and team feedback is treated with serious scrutiny. It's a democratic process, and it's far more refined than a team of eight guys pitching ideas at each other.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with Indie game development, but it's absurd to claim that the process is somehow "better." I'm sure Chen would love to command a studio of 100+ developers, but he lacks the financial resources to do so. Once his games are more established, chances are high that he'll attract investors, and then he'll no longer be an Indie developer, will he?

jettokisora

Kudos to Sony for reaching out to and nurturing indie developers, while giving them almost complete freedom.

Btw, about the name... are the English names of Chinese people registered soon after birth, or can that be done at any time? (yes, you can bet his real first name isn't Jenova). It might not be a coincidence his English name is Jenova :D [though J was clearly a female in the game, and in most languages it can't be a male name >_<]

somarix

Allow me to recap.

Is flOw:
Original? No.

Fun? For the first 10 minutes.

Creative? Highly debatable.

A milestone in gaming? Hell to the NO!.

Bottom line is, Jenova is nothing more than a self-promoter who has to rely on making outlandish claims just to get his no-name indie company some exposure. The end result is he comes across looking like a pompous ass, and a complete narcissist who believes he's the next Will Wright.

gee

FP Bleentastic has cake

@ca$h: Pompous? How about not sounding condescending to Indie developers that actually have talent, instead of talking shit about a topic you're completely ignorant too. What's wrong with flash games? What's your beef against Indie developers? Just because indie-devs don't have billions of dollars to throw into the next 4 years creating pseudo-fun games with 100+ development teams, doesn't mean they're any less talented, or creative than the Blizzards of the world. They have a handful of employees, doing something different, creating games that the "big-companies" would never pick up. It's analogous to how the film industry works...small-indie movies that are creative, niche pieces. Look at movies like Juno, No Country for Old Men.

Blizzard and Maxis awesome? yeah right:
Blizzard: Pretty much has only created 3 licenses ever, Warcraft, Diablo, and Starcraft. Though good games, there is nothing ground breaking about them. Starcraft/Warcraft, blatant rip off of the old Dune RTS, the grandfather of that genre. Diablo - a spruced up Gauntlet ripoff if I never saw one. Where's the innovation there? World of Warcraft (Everquest wannabe) developers: "Ah lets take the WC3 engine, duct tape it to work in a MMORPG capacity (i.e add more robust network abilities). Oh and that story we created in WC2, lets totally re-write that in this game"."yeah, the fanboys won't even notice!"

Maxis - makes the sims games. That's all. Got bought out by EA, so that means they can make even bigger sims games. Oh yeah, and they're making this game called Spore, which will never be released in your life-time.

I don't hate these companies, I'm just not a fanboy of any of them nor do you have to be some god to make games. I say if you're able to finish a game, whether in flash, C#, or even Qbasic, you've got more to show for than most people. It's not easy to finish a game, especially at a presentably polished level like FlOw is.

FlOw is a game that does something completely different, that's more than what a company like Blizzard can say. Though Jenova may sound pompous to you, it may be because you have your head so far up your ass that you don't have the pallet to taste some of the real gems of the industry. We need developers like Jenova.
Long live Indie games!

opt2not

I agree with Chen; fl0w and cloud are wonderful.

ohhello

Forget that the man created Flow (got old quick for me), and look at the big picture. Regardless of times, big companies take less risks and some of them don't at all. Most of the new IP's are of existing genre, and don't innovate much. Fun? Absolutely.

I'm pretty sure EA wouldn't even take a chance on Spore if it weren't for Will Wright's record.

SG79

Your view, MikeA, is just as narrow minded as they persons who believe only games with huge budgets and cutting edge graphics can offer anything of worth.

Vydas

I'm pretty sure you are wrong about that. Your "studio" is "probably" held down by budgets and current trend. Jenova's teams on the other hand is free to create what they want regardless of if it will sell well. This is why Indie development will always surpass big name commercial corporations. The sad thing is even if there was a great idea in one of those corporations it would be squashed.

MikeA

"a game who's primary user base ISN'T unemployed stoners"

Really?

firen

Jenova Chen really understands what it takes to make an actual game not some interactive movie carried by its narrative.

MikeA

Jechticknight

I work for a large, 'traditional' studio, and I'm pretty sure we're pushing the emotional spectrum of games more than fl0w ever did. And our game is actually fun. No offense.

Hell, I've been playing GTAIV recently, and despite the series' reputation, some of the choices the story forces you to make are pretty heavy. Big budgets can go a long way in the right hands.

jettokisora

Is he trying to say flOw isn't fun?

BPMο

darktorns

ca$h

flow?

expanding the emotional spectrum. really?

This person sounded pretty damn pompous and self-important to me. If they made a game who's primary user base ISN'T unemployed stoners, I might be inclined to take what they have to say a little more seriously. Until then, go back to making flash games and quit pretending you're company is on the same level as Blizzard and Maxis. Just because you used to work there doesn't mean the company's awesomeness some how got transferred to you. In fact, I'm pretty sure it didn't :/

ca$h

diablofreak