freespeech

phlask

Quit being a butt, man, and don't project yourself onto all other PC gamers, thinking they should just give it up.

Drake Lake: Encased in a Circuit Board

If there were a Freespace 3 with the kind of complexity of which you speak, I'd likely buy it. If Rockstar put GTA IV on the PC, I'd definitely consider it (I'm not sold on it; it isn't yet a clear must-buy for me ). I'm not going to buy a console in order to play GTA. But! I realize that I am the minority and what I want to pay for apparently isn't profitable. So it goes.

Shevek

"Frankly, I'm sick of people blaming piracy. It is a crutch and borderline strawman argument."

For me, personally, no it isn't. The facts are the reason the first company I work for left PC gaming was because:

1) PC games and the relative safety of consoles

2) the learning curve of our previous games.

Why don't you see Freespace 3 yet? You had to learn the whole keyboard AND a joystick and that is not going to endear you to the general populace.

We shipped a different console-launch title, the hardware wasn't cracked for months and we make a pretty good royalty out of it within the time window of the majority of our sales.

IMO, piracy on the PC is way too easy compared to consoles. Yes, you CAN pirate console titles, but it's more of a deterrent.

Remember, not a barrier, a deterrent which in itself stops a decent amount of people from taking your game that you have created.

As for socio-economic reasons, I call bullshit.

Why? Look at GTA IV. 500 million in sales and how many millions sold in the first week.

If a person wants the game and it's hyped enough, the person is going to buy it regardless and make less with other luxuries.

Why do you think Rockstar has the game out for the consoles and not the PC?

Lessening of complexity, a deterrent for piracy = guaranteed higher sale volume.

JohnnyLA

I don't think it is fair to say that PC players are (entirely) on a high horse. In an ideal world, everyone would get their games and play them, too. The problem is that money is on the consoles (is that the fault of PC players? I don't know) and I think PC properties suffer in translation. Certain genres die off because consoles simply don't have the necessary input devices (although games like Guitar Hero and Rock Band might show some light for the future). Simulations become rail-shooters or action games. RPGs become streamlined FPS-RPGs.

I'm not necessarily saying that streamlined controls are automatically worse than more complicated setups (I liked BioShock a great deal, even though I agree with the criticism of its console elements). I also think that some of the genres I identify as being PC could still exist on consoles (why the Wii has so few adventure or 'boardgame' type games puzzles me, but I suppose they just wouldn't sell). I'm just saying that I look at some of my favorite games and note that they're not longer around. I'd pay money, but there isn't anything to buy.

Shevek

Now that that's over with, I have to say that the first Fallout blew my 10 year old mind when my cousin let me play it on his computer that one time, so Bethesda better not screw this up like they did with Oblivion.

Placentasaurus

The big thing that should change between casual and hardcore is the simplest thing to fix: the ui. You could easily cater to both genres by building for the hardcore, then when the idiot skips the directions and doesn't know what to do, have a hint button in the menu.

Tiber

Once activated, you'll be able to take dozens of machine gun rounds to the chest, you'll rapidly regenerate health, cut scenes will be removed, and the entire game will be divided into individual areas (with a loading screen each time you travel between them).

As a bonus, once Retard Mode is activated, a multiplayer mode is unlocked so they'll be able to bunny hop around while firing rockets at each other's heads to their heart's content (with the help of an autoaim, of course)

Bissrok

*snarl*

*froth*

*snarl*

*rabies*

MagicApple

And, lets all be honest here. If tomorrow there were ZERO games on the PC what do you think those Pirates are going to do? Start stealing chess boards out of Wal-mart? No, you're going to see more console pirating.

People that use piracy as a crutch argument don't deserve the time it takes to read their argument.

Instead we should look more into socio-economic reasons pertaining to stuff you mention such as, "If PC games were as successful as console games then everyone might have a point bitching about "loss of complexity" but since most PC games sell horribly compared to the consoles, this is what you get."

Who has the most disposable income to blow on games? Who can convince t heir parents to buy a 500 dollar console that will last 5 years vs a computer that takes maintenance and a little bit more responsibility? Who has less of an attention span and can't remember when it was blasphemy when a game was only 10-12 hours long? Yes us 20-30 somethings buy a lot of games but to completely ignore the fact that there are TONS more ~14-18 year olds is silly.

ehlaren

But when it comes to the same thing happening for consoles games through casual games: "casuals are killing gaming, simple games are stupid, I want complex games, the sky is falling."

Leanid

bunch.of.wackos

Great...

Duoae

I feel twitchy,
Oh so twitchy,

I feel twitchy and ready to play,

And I pity,
Any girl who isn't me today,

Lalalalalalalala

PeteRR

If the Gen Y and Millennium kids want complexity for complexities sake just download and play an Ultima or old-school RPG..

with no gamefaq, or cheats, and having to put on graph paper all of the dungeons, etc. Then you'll be "hardcore".

Also, to all the pirates out their on the burning PC...You wonder why games are going to consoles and adapted to that system and the PC is an afterthought?

Money.

If PC games were as successful as console games then everyone might have a point bitching about "loss of complexity" but since most PC games sell horribly compared to the consoles, this is what you get.

JohnnyLA

The only thing that upset me about Oblivion in terms of gameplay (this was for me only) was that armor didn't come in different pieces anymore, and made collecting less fun :(

Well, two. Damn voices, over and over, seriously.

"If it becomes a problem, they could always have different gameplay modes, or make an expansion to add the features that were cut in order to streamline it for casual gamers."

I'd wish someone would try these and see how well they do. It's an expansion, so it's less of a risk than a full blown game.

Drake Lake: Encased in a Circuit Board

So what about the new people growing up on games? They must feel like they're getting the shit end of the stick, constantly reading all these quotes from developers "dumbing down" games. Does no one think about them? Those selfish, selfish developers :P

Then again, since they've never properly experienced those games, I'm sure they're not too fussy.

Drake Lake: Encased in a Circuit Board

TransomDan

This was my #1 concern about this Fallout title. Sad to say that pending a few reviews I may just skip this third installment.

Project Thanatos

@cordsie: Don't worry about starcraft 2 man. It's a blizzard game, it's going to sell exactly a billion copies.

Dresarius

For example, the inventory system in SS2 could have been better, but it also made me think about what I want to carry and prioritize my decisions. Limiting me to a set of decisions (created by my own choices on how to use my skill points) made me think tactically about how to approach combat situations. It helped to create an environment of real fear and suspense, a sense that I just didn't get from BS's gameplay--which is why I was so disappointed in it. It's a fine, fine game in and of itself, but--to me--it didn't feel like the spiritual successor to SS2.

And I'm not sure if I'd call a franchise that was stripped from the original creators as an official title. Just to use some (very) popular examples: would you call a new Harry Potter book a Harry Potter book if the rights were somehow stripped from J.K. Rowling by her publishing house? Would anyone really be confident in the new Indiana Jones flick if both Spielberg and Ford weren't at the helm? While I think that we're essentially quibbling over semantics here, I tend to favor the authors in cases like these, both real and hypothetical. Once the material is removed from the creators' hands without their blessing or input, the results strike me as being no different than fan fiction.

That's partly why I'm so leery about Fallout 3. They don't have one ex-BIS staffer on board! I'd be much more comfortable with Bethesda's handling if I had the reassurances of someone like Cain or Avellone.

JustThisGuy

Still, Oblivion didn't feel all that dumbed down to me, with the exception of the menu that I fixed with a mod. If it becomes a problem, they could always have different gameplay modes, or make an expansion to add the features that were cut in order to streamline it for casual gamers.

@JustThisGuy: I could see why some people might be sad, since to them it's like they had to put their baby up for adoption, but it seems a little mean to vent that onto Bethesda, who is trying their best to stay true to the source material.

Tiber

However, I think most fallout fans would consider Van Buren the "real" vision and initial development of Fallout 3, and thus, having the current bethesda effort as a "dumbed down" game.

*Sigh* Frankly, all I need from my fallout are unhealthily high doses of good retrofuturistic apocalypse, black humor, a good story, and freedom to pursue choices, normal and bizarre alike.

The specifics of the SPECIAL system or the combat system, I can live with changes in that.

Grive

a) No controller limits your ability to both move and aim at the same time.

b) The "move or shoot" genre was on the PC, and for a time was pretty much PC-only. It's a concession to "realism" (which in GeoW elicits a chuckle, I know), designed to control the pace of a game and prevent a Quakeish fragfest.

Grive

That's exactly how I feel. I still build a new PC every other year, so i can experience the leading edge of gaming on PC. But I spend the majority of my time just popping in a game and playing it on a console for an hour at a time.

string_theory

MaxS

Salen

Complaints are often lobbed at Bioshock but it's actually an example of a success story. Bioshock follows in the footsteps of System Shock but pairs down the formula; Bioshock removed much of the RPG elements in favor of a more streamlined FPS experience (Ken Levine tried to emphasize this but apparently no one listened). That might be a point of contention for the game being "dumbed down" but it removed elements that were unnecessary for the kind of story telling and gameplay they were looking for. Constantly pulling up menus to fiddle with inventory or assign points detracts from frenetic gameplay. The decision also removes some of the more punishing elements that locked players into a single "track" and set of behaviors. Bioshock allows players to experience a much larger portion of the game on a single play through than the System Shock games did. I'm not saying that one way or the other is better, but making these decisions isn't automatically dumbing the game down.

The PC isn't dead as a gaming outlet but it is severely hobbled by cost and complexity of upkeep. The PC may end up on top again some day but only if prices come down and choices become (ironically) less complicated.

agies

Carnok

If Fallout, version 3, gets dumbed down, It will be a sad day for all gamers, console and PC gamers.

There must be send a message to console players: Your input options are weak!!
Pads, weemote,.. are innapropiate input devices to make games, so games need to be dumbed down for players with that input devices. I laught in a very sad way at FPS titles designed for players that can't walk and aim at the same time, and need to have the Gears of War gameplay where you move OR shot.

Tei

WalkOnWater

I'd imagine even these are becoming less and less profitable. Even Civ is making its way to the consoles now, so looks like we're all doomed. Be interesting to see how well Starcraft 2 actually does with respect to similarily anticipated console titles.

The only things really keeping PC games going are games which require a lot of small legible text, or which require precise input devices like mice or keyboards. If your game can be designed an a manner that removes the need for either of these, you'd be fairly foolish not to considering the current market.

cordsie

Waldo2129

After all how hard can it be to change a few of these console-related annoyances for the PC version?

KroKan

And they were true. Oblivion was very much dumbed down when compared to Morrowind. And the interface for Oblivion was bottle-necked by a menu system obviously designed with a console in mind. The gameplay was more simplistic, and, of course, there was a scaling system with mobs that I utterly detested.

Honestly, I think Morrowind was a better game than Oblivion in every respect except graphics.

This, however, has nothing to do with making money. Money-generation and quality of gaming experience are not necessarily directly related to one another. There are, for example, a lot of pop singers these days who make a lot of money, but does that really mean they're excellent musicians? No, it could just mean that they look hot and have good PR.

It's undeniable that Oblivion made a lot of money. I can understand, from a *business* perspective, why companies are dumping the PC and going to Console releases. But from a purely gaming perspective? I don't think anyone is going to convince me that Consoles are a better platform for such games as RPGs and FPSes. Platform is determined by money-generation, though, not by which one can be used to create the best possible game / gaming envirornment, IMO.

Madoc

As a rabid fan I'd be more happy with an isometric/top down turn based RPG style Fallout than a first/third person sudo RPG like Bioshock, which to be honest is one of the most overated games I've ever played.

mondog

TheIrishNinja

the game is too DERP for you?

ponos

Waldo2129

1). No inventory screen.

2). Way too much ammunition.

3). Lack of character development. The fact that I could do everything (hack, shoot, psi in SS2 terms) took a lot of the challenge away, I think.

4). How my death merely led to the respawn chamber a few yards away, and the enemies DID NOT REGENERATE THEIR HEALTH. You could just blunt force your way through the entire game like this.

5). Re-use of the Shodan plot-twist, nearly word-for-word.

And etc. etc. etc.

In the next Bioshock, I want to be put into situations where I might have to run away from a large mob of goons. I don't like how I didn't have to worry about things like that, as I can't think of any situation in the game where I couldn't step in on full-auto with my machine gun and plasmids, fully confident that no enemy posed any threat to me whatsoever.

JustThisGuy

Being a huge fan of the Fallout series, I'm definitely looking forward to numero tres. Bethesda has given us quality games in the past and based on everything I've heard I have no reason to think they won't continue to do so. Even if it's not their original franchise I think they have the ability to do it justice.

In the interview Pagliarulo says they realize there's a market for more hardcore RPGs on the console. Hopefully this means they'll try to keep Fallout 3 to the same level of "hardcoreness" as the original two. If it ends up being "dumbed down" to Oblivion's level I won't be disappointed. Any further and I probably will. Only time will tell.

Worst case I'll just have to wait until the Fallout MMO comes out.

akruble

mondog

derFeef

Yas

xbulletholes

Spoit

While I'm fairly certain that Bethesda chose this song as a tribute or a knowing wink to the fanbase, the news apparently hit Boyarsky, Cain and Anderson like a kick to the balls. They were furious when they heard about it.

Mind you, none of this is sourced, and this is all hearsay from an ex-Troika now-Obsidian staffer (and my current significant other). I thought it was interesting enough to share, regardless.

JustThisGuy

I don't mind them dumbing down a game for console gamers but put in the options for turn the retard mode off for real games players, oblvion was a yawn fest.

jigglypoofs

I've actually heard that the word around Obsidian is that YOU DO NOT TALK ABOUT THE BETHESDA GAME THAT IS EMPHATICALLY NOT FALLOUT. Apparently, there are still a few folks who are quite sore over the issue.

JustThisGuy

My flatmate is very much a casual gamer.
I am very much what you consider a hardcore gamer.
The difference I see when we are playing games are quite funny actually.

If I buy a game, I'll complete it, then move on.
If he buys a game, he'll get 3/4 the way through and then get distracted by the next game.

I listen to the story and watch the cutscenes.
He skips them all and gets angry if he can't and asks me what to do because he didn't pay attention.

I look for hidden stuff and side missions. Trying to get every bit of story or gameplay out of the game that I can.
He follows the arrow like a donkey with a carrot in front of his nose.

Just as an example, playing Bioshock, he took about 8 hours. I took about 15. The end of the game for him was when he found out who Atlas really was. He didn't like it after that because all his hard earned plasmids went screwy.

will

You absolutely lurv Halo and Bungie. Whenever you sit down infront of Halo you enter an euphoria. Every step you take you continue to be amazed at the wonderful game you favourite developer Bungie has created. The graphics, physics, music, gunplay, AI, depth, design, dialogue, story etc.

You dream about a sequel every night for years.

But then four years later Microsoft sacks the entire Bungie staff. Their games were to deep for the mainstream and didn't sell well enough. So your seriously bummed out and your hoping that one of the companies that the fired Bungie guys created or maybe some other great developer like Infinity Ward would make a awsome sequel someday.

Another year passes and you find out that Nintendo has bought the license.
Your a bit sceptical at first but they made Metroid and stuff so you calm yourself.

A couple of years later Nintendo starts to realese screenshots and info about the game but oh wait its Master. Cheif's Toe Training: How Old Are Your Toes?

Your severely disappointed and you vent your concern on some gaming forum only to be told that your a nerd an elitist a fanboy and old.

Fallout 3 will be a awsome game, almost certainly RPG-OTY might even be better than the previous games.
I'm just tired of being called a rabid fanboy as soon as i express scepticism about it. Either way mods fixed Oblivion and they can fix this too.

The_nub_next_door

Spoit

However, think about this: while some of us might be disappointed at this kind of talk, think about how Obsidian must feel. I can only imagine much breast-beating, gnashing of teeth, and general homicidal hatred emanating from the heart of the ol' Black Isle crew.

JustThisGuy

He could've just said "we're in the console business now" and walked away.

PC's almost dead, people. Let's move along, shall we?

Ashurahori

Luke Plunkett

These are just annoying for PC gamers.

Looks like Fallout 3 is also doomed for me :(

KroKan

(I should really get some sleep)

MasterDex

MasterDex

also, could someone maybe read me the tutorial when its ready? im looking at maldron here. thanks guys!

TheIrishNinja

Katorok

gamerholic

Aprocalypse

As for Emil, he's right. For most developers, it seems the consoles simply offer them a better chance at making money. I too used to be a hardcore PC gamer, until finally the Dreamcast and then the Xbox convinced me that I could get graphics that were just as good, for less money, elsewhere. Now that the era of HDTV has begun, it's become even more apparent that the relatively minor graphical and control improvements, and the ever-more-limited selection of exclusive titles gained by gaming on a PC just aren't worth the massive financial investment required to keep up with the Joneses.

Of course, Starcraft 2 hasn't come out yet. Ask me to think again then and I may come to a different conclusion...

freakout

doctorwily

Mr.DuckSauce

So, I've never play a Civ game before and want to get into the series. Should I wait for the possibly dumbed down one for consoles or buy one of the older games?

(Random moment over)

Thorax

Carnok

t0yrobo

At this point he's just inviting Fallout devotees to come to Bethesda's office torch-and-pitchfork style.

pagancollective

Garo

Mr.DuckSauce