freespeech

What I find terrifying is the amount of pirates who claim they would've "wasted" sixty bucks on a game if not for piracy.

Not in itself, you understand, but it means there are people who would rather spend a couple of hours downloading a game than spend thirty minutes looking up reviews. And these are the chuckleheads who are going to rule the world.

@Moridin: Huzzah.

@Dakobah: I prefer to say "Catch-22". It conveys that mildly patronizing sense of literary erudition that will drive just about anyone mad, without directly insulting them.

@Moridin: Point of order: you're describing ethics, not morals. Morals are determined by society at large. Ethics are personal.

@Marlor: I feel the same way about anime pirates. They say they'll stop pirating when a series is licensed, but when it does come out, they keep doing it "because the dub sucks". Naruto has been licensed for several years now, and you can still get the episodes off BitTorrent.

Strangely enough, few people would consider buying the original Japanese DVDs, at least.
____
Yay, I made it through the entire thread without arguing with people!

[img183.imageshack.us]

Jonn

73mike

No I meant what I said, because though I may be getting my degree, I'm poor as shit with college funds, so if i saw the game out early at a friends house (if i knew a friend who obtained a pirated copy... it wouldn't end our relationship) I'd just simply ignore the fact that it's there. You can't stop everyone from doing what they please or there'd be no police types to enforce the laws provided.

You guys need to stop scrutinizing my comments.

MechaTek

Moridin

Bez

robinhood10862

True and true. The wii now costs more than the basic xbox, it doesn't do HD or proper online and IMO is a total rip off. I bought it for Resident Evil UC before the price drop and now I am very annoyed at Nintendo for being so greedy.

It was getting greedy when they were winning that caused the n64 to lose to the PlayStation. Complacency breeds defeat!

EdwinJ85

They are burned onto a DVD and then used on an Xbox 360 with a flashed disc drive. A flashed disc drive will play media without security - IE a copied game.

Go online whilst playing it however, and God help you.

EdwinJ85

THANKS SONY.

NO PIRACY FOR ME (;

Vileyaser

And yet some people pirate AND buy. Some people pirate as a means to seeing if a game is worth it, and then buy it to support the company.

Oh, and bullshit.

If a company made more money by all the pirates in the world buying software instead of downloading it, they wouldn't lower their prices. Look at Nintendo, they aren't lowering their prices at all. They'd keep the extra money for themselves.

gravytoast

gravytoast

Jimbo4

No one handed me or anyone here a ballot on the issue.

And all these precedents your so fond of don't mean anything to a technically affluent population.

When were at the point when Joe Six has a greater understanding of the computer your IP laws mean shit.

He will pay as much attention to it as he does a "Do not remove tag" on the governor of his Chevy pick up.

Jimbo4

Morally bankrupt? If you knew anything about me, or my stacks of retail games I have paid full price for, you'd probably think otherwise.

All I'm saying is that if you think that rental and used sales are okay, neither of which really give the game creators any income after the initial sale of the item, what's the difference as compared to downloading? Because I'm not giving blockbuster or netflix money? How does that affect the programmers?

I buy the games I actually like enough to play. Games I don't like much get downloaded and tossed in a pile to rot.

Maybe you think that just because I've downloaded something and tried it, I owe $60 for the 10 minutes played? Or because I have the ability to put the burned copy in my drive and check it out again that I should be paying for it? Let's put it this way, I have a lot of guns, and a whole lot of ammo. Occasionally I have anger and murderous intent towards others. Does that mean that I should be locked away in jail for murder even though I don't kill people? I mean, I have everything I need to go on a killing spree, and at times I have the motive.

I don't mod out my games and cheat on xbox live. Hell, I never even use cheat codes included in the games. I'm the LAST person you ever need to worry about degrading your experience. My piracy is my rental program, and that's all. When I play a game, and like it enough to keep playing it, I'll buy it. If I don't like a game, or I play it through to completion, and there's nothing left afterwards aside from the one experience, I stop playing it and don't buy it. It's no different than taking a rental copy back to the store and getting a different one.

ThatGuyOverThere

That being said, I wouldn't mind TPB getting shafted. They're scum and deserve to be punished.

Vodun

Cirem0

Cirem0

I would further suggest that you may have an exaggerated understanding of your rights. It is not a 'feeling' that IP laws govern communication on the net. The case law is pertinent and a substantial body of precedent has already been established. Enforcement is the weak link in the equation. However, as legislators grapple with the best methods for taxing internet commerce we can be assured that the will and means to enforce these laws will be bolstered.

As an interesting aside, while these torrent hosts may try to defend themselves by transferring blame to the users; the use of copyrighted images, such as those used in the front page of their site, is blatant infringement. Shame on Pirate Bay.

Lastly, I suspect that you may be surprised to learn that we have usury laws in the United States. It seems that the underlying principle is still valid, but the understanding of the term has evolved.

Novellion

PGGB

supercrap

I think you mean that you don't condone piracy.

Marlor

Regardless of how you feel Net neutrality, privacy and freedom of speech on the internet are not compatible with IP laws.

All the internet does is transfer information.

The only way you can stop piracy is to monitor all communication and restrict traffic.

Bluntly I'm not willing to give up my rights to sustain billionaires outdated business models.

PB isn't doing anything wrong, Sweden is a socialist country.

They don't believe intangibles can or should be owned.

A lot of people believe usery is theft, you know like the bible?

Jimbo4

My future depends on the gaming industry. It's my profession of choice and I condone piracy. Games are usually invested by some kind of large corp. or big wig and they are taking a big risk on the development for that game; they also have to make sure that they have all the right people to make their pipeline succeed. If the "gamble" goes well then you should have all your inventments paid and some profit to boot.

If people pirate, the payout in the end for all that work will go for nothing. We aren't talking just a CD of your favorite rap star, this is a a fully interactive experience that lasts more than just an hour (usual CD length). It just isn't honorable and anyone who does isn't a gamer as a real gamer would appreciate the fruits of game developers labor.

MechaTek

inn1t

I've got a modded Wii, and I'm all for importing and circumventing region locking... which is perfectly legal (here in Australia) and breaks down the artificial market segmentation that has been created by manufacturers and publishers.

However, I'm about as anti-piracy as you can get. If developers have put the effort into financing, designing, developing and releasing a game, the least you can do is pay for the game.

And if you don't want to buy it, then fine. Don't play it.

Marlor

Dr Terror

That was very enlightening! I feel so.... free!

Now I can do so many things I've never done like....

Beat my dog! Sure she really trusts me... but who's she gonna tell?

Cheat on my wife! I mean if I don't get caught... no reason to feel bad right?

I bet I could even cheat my own mother out of her life savings now!

Gosh... there are so many things that are no longer off limits to me... I mean now that all I have to worry about is not killing anyone or causing rioting in the streets!

No wait.... I can't do any of that stuff because of course morals aren't just bullshit. Just when you think people can't be any more moronic.......

robinandtami

SpartanQ77

Novellion

SpartanQ77

The funny thing is that guys with your moral code who would never steal the Porsche, PROBABLY wouldn't walk into a retail store and steal the game disc either. Maybe it doesn't "feel" like stealing when you can just anonymously download something, but it is stealing and it's not moral no matter how broke you are. Video games are not a life neccessity. If they were, we'd be seeing the Red Cross passing out copies of Halo 3 after natural disasters, instead of MRE's and bottled water. But hey, if you are comfortable selling out your morals for a $60 game, who am I to judge? Oh yeah, I'm the chick that is having to pay more to make up for what you stole!

robinandtami

I said that real wages were fairly steady, while "real" game prices have dropped 25-30%.

Show me some statistics that real wages have dropped by 25% in the last decade and I'll accept your point (and be very surprised).

Hell, show me that real wages have dropped by any statistically significant amount at all, and I'll be surprised.

According to a study by the US Labor Research Association, real wages increased during the 1997-2003 period:
[www.workinglife.org]

They then dropped somewhat from 2003 to 2007, but only by a small amount. Certainly not enough to offset the earlier gains.

Marlor

Rock Band anyone?

Cruithne

I won't claim to understand all of economics, since I'm a biologist myself, but when I see things costing much more, and not seeing a correlating increase in my paycheck, I start to think that things aren't so great here.

ThatGuyOverThere

"You are considerably wrong on a number of points. We've seen publishers come out against used games sales, and lending/borrowing, and rentals."

Sure, some people often theorise about how things would be better without used game sales, but they certainly aren't actively trying to stop it.

And I've never seen anyone say that people lending games to friends is harming the industry.

In contrast, everybody knows that piracy is a real issue.

"As for rental stores paying more for "rental copies," I'm pretty sure that stopped with VHS."

I'm not sure about the US, but here in Australia, rental copies are certainly different to retail copies. Retail copies are clearly marked "not for rental".

"You pointed out that games cost the same as they did back when.. well, if you've kept up with the economy, you'd see that real wages have fallen in that time, so even accounting for inflation, stuff costs MORE now to the average person."

That's totally incorrect.

Raw wages have increased in the past decade. "Real wages" have been steady. However, you have to understand what "real wages" are. They are wages adjusted to take inflation into account.

If we adjust the price of games to take inflation into account, we find that "real" game prices have actually decreased 25-30% (depending on which inflation figure is used).

--

@jackasssiegel wrote:
"That would make a lot of sense if the oil companies weren't experiencing record profits. The point is that there is in fact greed that causes high prices. Whether in games or elsewhere."

Sure, the tabloid media has been reporting that oil companies have been making "record profits". In fact, they haven't really.

Actual profits are the same as always, but the increase in the price of crude oil has caused the value of their stockpiles to jump. This then has to be reported as a "profit" in financial statements. In reality it's just a temporary blip.

In any case, this has nothing to do with games. If you want evidence that game developers struggle, then just look at the rate at which they go out of business.

Marlor

I personally feel really great every time I burn a game, find out it's a piece of shit, and save the $60 I would have normally spent finding that out.

It happens all the time. In fact, I'd bet I feel really great more often than you feel really good.

I've got about 40 360 games I'm glad I didn't buy, and they've been stuffed away in a binder, not getting played. Meanwhile I've got 10 or 15 that I'm mostly okay with having spent money on. (and backup copies sitting in the same binder as the bad games).

And before you talk smack about my inevitable ban from xboxlive, I have 2 360s, one modded (where I play my "demos" and backups of games I bought), and the stock one which i use for playing retail copies on xboxlive. Neither one is banned.

ThatGuyOverThere

I personally feel really good every time i drive home from the game store with a plastic sealed version of a game in my lap. your missing out

deathtastic

SpartanQ77

SpartanQ77

sorry i got into the argument of piracy, i got into it.

obviously i won't be able to stop it, and its just going to have to be left up to FCC ESA all the other anti-piracy companies.

sorry to everyone, ill stop on piracy issue.

Dakobah

ThatGuyOverThere

You pointed out that games cost the same as they did back when.. well, if you've kept up with the economy, you'd see that real wages have fallen in that time, so even accounting for inflation, stuff costs MORE now to the average person.

McWhertor - I don't know which argument is totally flawed, but here's my argument for piracy. I'm damn tired of buying something based on hype, then finding out i wasted my money on a steaming pile of crap (kane and lynch.) Even worse, when I shell out the money on an actual decent game, and a couple months later, the SUPERDUPERBONUS edition comes out with all the stuff that SHOULD have been included in the deluxe version I already bought at launch (COD4, any movie ever.) I'm totally sick of it. Instead of spending $5 to rent, why not drop the $1.50 on a blank dual layer dvd (360), or $0.20 for a single layer (wii) and try the game out? I can tell you this much, I downloaded GTA4, and I think this will be the first GTA game I actually buy. I never liked the others all that much, so I stopped playing them after about 10 minutes. But this one seems better, with multiplayer modes that I know I'll enjoy.

Don't get me wrong, I pirate absolutely everything I can. But I also have stacks of games for my systems that I purchase the normal way. And I always purchase NEW, never used. I have a very short attention span for games. Most quickly lose me with the repetitive levels, pointless quests, and weak story lines. But when I find a game I actually like enough to play for a while, I'll usually go buy it, but I might wait until the 2nd edition comes out with the extra features added in...

If it makes you feel any better, I have games dating back to N64 that are still factory sealed because I haven't gotten around to playing them yet.

ThatGuyOverThere

I was referring to Making a music cd which also has musicians, mixers, writers, back-up singers, advertising, etc...

"The current gas price problems are due to an increase in demand for oil from the developing world, particularly China. This has coincided with a levelling-off of global oil production due to a decrease in readily-accessible oil reserves."

That would make a lot of sense if the oil companies weren't experiencing record profits. The point is that there is in fact greed that causes high prices. Whether in games or elsewhere.

How is the developers and others who make the game suffering any differently than those who make music and movies? They all deal with piracy and still manage to make enormous profits. Some studios do close their doors but it is more due to the competition than the pirates.

jackasssiegel

Albanian_Killa

Now that consoles have pretty good sized hardrives, I'm betting the next gen consoles will have terraflop drives installed and everything will be "just" downloads, PDF's for manuals. Less paper and plastic (go green?) and the pure liesure of not having to go out of your way to Best Buy and buy it.

You can argue that "game launch events" at a local Game Stop wouldn't happen then. But I am sure that can be remidied in some way, like just have a party anyway (or virtual party maybe?)

MechaTek

That being said, there's this tiny little part of me that's sorta happy a game that wallows in, and perhaps glorifies, the criminal lifestyle is, apparently, going to be losing revenue because of criminals.

(No, no, I'm not one of those crusaders for whatever. I fully recognize Rockstar's right to make whatever type of game they want, and I fully recognize the publics right to buy whatever type of game they want. I just think it takes a disturbed person to want a game like this. (And yes. I think the idiot media and everything has cause and effect turned around. If (big IF) there's a link between games like GTA and crime, it's because those prone to violence are more likely to enjoy violent games. (I also recognize the cathartic effect, and expect if there is any link between GTA and violence, it's that GTA actually reduces it) It's like seeing a pair of boxing gloves in a boxers house. Did he become a boxer because of all that time he spent with boxing gloves in his house, or did he buy boxing gloves because he likes boxing?)

GnatB

@ViperTooth: Every facet of your argument is flawed. Stop stealing.

Michael McWhertor

MechaTek

I would be shocked if more than 1% of current generation consoles were modified or configured to allow the use of pirated material. Additionally, it is certainly true that revenue has risen for most studios. However, neither of these facts changes the fact that piracy is illegal. I have not read a single sentence within these comments that justifies piracy.

Additionally, the drain to the industry is not only felt in a loss of revenue and marketing control(as it surely is,) but also in sizable increases to costs. Encryption, copyright defense litigation, and other costs associated with protecting against this illicit behaviour all contribute to the final costs. Therefore, your suggestion that it is a 'major threat' is certainly correct.

Novellion

Most games still sell for US$50-60. That's actually less than the average game price in the PS/N64 era, which is amazing, given the rate of inflation and increased development costs. Plus, non-US developers are actually making less from game sales in the US at the moment due to the weak US dollar.

"It doesn't cost that much to make a game just like it doesn't cost the amount to make a cd."

To press a game doesn't cost much. To design, develop, test, market and distribute a game is expensive.

"It's the greed of the big wigs at the commpanies that cause the inflated price. not piracy. Its a simple law of supply and demand. Just like our current gas price problems."

The current gas price problems are due to an increase in demand for oil from the developing world, particularly China. This has coincided with a levelling-off of global oil production due to a decrease in readily-accessible oil reserves.

I'm not sure what that has to do with gaming.

"And think Piracy actually helps a lot of people"

Sure, the guys making modchips and selling pirated games at shady computer markets make money.

But the people who actually make the games are the ones who lose out. Which is bad for those of us who are gamers.

Marlor

jackasssiegel

ZWarren69

ZWarren69

Novellion

so rokstar is in a dire strain of money? they have spent millions on advertising and they are putting a senseless game about killing hookers, and i should buy this trash for $60?? really man, think for a bloody second and think it over. your a moron for posting this to a massive multi million dollar company that advertises it to a core teen base. shit ill play it one day, but this is no art. its just mass consumption for the illeriate and the idiots.
no offensive, but video games are that, they are ways to waste time in the most unconstructive way possibl.

bigwoof

ZWarren69

Evil Tortie's Mom

Those who say this will kill the industry. Hello? You seen the expected sales for this game. So, maybe they lose a couple million. They are still gonna be beastly rich

maskedaprentice

FYI, I'm not rich and d/l a lot of stuff too but at least I'm honest about it and not trying to blame it on "oh poor me".

loonstar

Funny that on most days, the gaming industry lauded as the Next Big Thing, poised to be the biggest part of the entertainment sector, worth umpty billion dollars more than the movie industry...
But on some days it seems it's about to be crippled and ruined by piracy...

73mike

Wow, Xenophobia, Great way to convince me of your moral superiority.
I'm sorry to have to say this, but since you brought up the topic of regions and countries being predisposed towards certain behaviour, when are you going to stop invading other countries for their oil?

Piracy?

No one does or bigger or better than Americans.

Cruithne

mescalineeyes

Suck it up!

Am I the only one that finds canned outrage and trained responses really tiresome?

73mike

1) I saw someone talk about "necessary" piracy, as in they must pirate because something is unaffordable. This is a nonsensical argument, no matter how often it comes up on /. You do not have a "right" to a piece of media. If it is too expensive, then you're out of luck. Let's leave psuedo-moralistic rationalizations at the door, shall we?

2) I saw someone else say it was just copyright infringement, not a "major" crime. In the jurisdiction I am most familiar with (Illinois), distributive copyright infringement is a felony. That's over a year in prison, minimum. Depending on the value of what you're distributing, it can go up to 10 years. The feds have similarly serious statutes. Before people try to split hairs, almost every time someone uses bittorrent, they are simultaneously uploading, which is distribution.

I'm not going to lecture people about piracy, but if you are going to pirate things, you owe it to everyone to be honest with what you're doing, and not give us a load of sanctimonious BS in a crass attempt to rationalize your actions.

Fnor

miroku

Guess what? None of those cases have a major impact, because they happen on a small-scale. It's expected that when a game is bought, more than one person will play it. If you lend it to a friend, then the two of you get to play it, that's fine. If you trade it in, and someone else gets your copy, then that's fine. If someone comes over to your house and plays it, great.

Basically, you are amortizing the cost of the game across multiple people in a fair, sensible and legal manner. That's OK. Developers get their money, and they expect you to do that.

The thing about those situations is that there is a physical constraint on how much sharing can be done. While your friend has the game, you can't play it. If you trade the game in, you can't play it. In a way, this actually rewards games with longevity. If your friend is constantly borrowing a game that you want to play, then you will tell him to buy his own copy. If you trade in a game, then realize that you really miss it, then you will probably buy another copy.

Rentals are a separate issue, and rental stores usually pay extra for their rental copies, then recoup the cost from people hiring the game. Again, developers get their money.

Fair use is fine. Nobody has a problem with it. It's the extreme cases that are the issue.

Piracy is like one guy buying a game, then a million people borrowing it off him at once. That's the issue.

Marlor

@Dakobah

Good, it's a shame to see people put themselves on a high horse and become snooty. Good thing you've realized it.

超外人

Moridin

Kleppe

PeterBeck

@markusdragon: tell me how its not physical again?

your burning the game on to a CD and saying its not physically stealing?

enlighten me please im lost here.

Dakobah

not to mention the trailer called "everyone's a rat" or whatever

joelface

I wouldn't expect many spoilers in any reviews though, nothing beyond "you're this guy, who comes to this city for this reason, and your adventure will include some of these people". Nothing like a glossary of who stabs who in the back, which I'm expecting in GTA IV anyway since they've done it through the last three.

PeterBeck

Video game where the player is a criminal is stolen.

That sort of makes me laugh a little bit, even if it doesn't really have anything to do with anything.

Ankhenaten

Who honestly has ever played GTA for any sort of cohesive story? Cuz it sure isn't in there.

Rondogg

Sorry but prices or not, piracy will always be a constant because there's always a market of people who simply want things for nothing.

PeterBeck

Xerxes 8933A

By this logic, anyone who borrows, rents or buys used is also pirating. They can appreciate their hard work, yet somehow "deprive" the developers of theirs.

超外人

Sales will undoubtedly be affected.

Even if the pirates couldn't afford the game now, they might have bought it in a year's time when the price drops and they have some spare cash.

Will they ever buy it if they pirated the game and played it for free? Probably not.

Marlor

So, it's okay to steal it then?

Pirates don't truly appreciate video games. They certainly don't care about the hard work that goes into the development of a game. It's not excusable to say, "oh, well it will sell millions, so, whatever."

If you really think you aren't stealing, you're naive, European, or both. It's just a sneakier and lazier way of shoplifting.

RattyAssMullet

If I have to go through hoops to not get your service for free, you need to change up your service.

Oh wait, what's that? The billion dollar industry is still going strong? No one wants to or needs to change? Well then, please stop whining.

Squanderdalfast

The developer hasn't lost potential earnings, because the money was never going to change hands in the first place, so how is the developer losing out?

markusdragon

You talk as if everyone has the steady income and nothing unexpected happens in life. Just because they had the money to grab a tv or a console doesn't mean they have the money to keep buying $60 games.
This also doesn't mean they pirate. However, it seems developers also feel entitled to high sales, which isn't going to happen just because you made a game. If the sales aren't as high, they always want to find something to blame so their stockholders don't try to hold them responsible.
They've blamed renting, used sales, and piracy. I'm surprised they haven't blamed people who just aren't interested in their titles.

@Dakobah

Trying to sound high and mighty by saying someone's moral compass is broken is a pretty lame gesture. Trying to sound better than someone who disagrees with your opinion is pretty low. You don't even know if the person pirates.

1 million downloads doesn't mean anything if that's how many pirates are snagging GTA4. It wouldn't surprise me if a majority of them wouldn't know how to use the files.
It also doesn't mean sales are affected if this game is so hyped up that tons of people have made enough reservations to hold a MIDNIGHT LAUNCH.

超外人

The real question with the games you pirated when you were 14 is...would you have ever bought those games? In any capacity? If so, it did affect the sales of those games.

verrius

Dakobah

I understand not being quick to judge on anything (check out my comments in other posts), and if this was about stealing in general, then I would agree.

But, these are videogames. I believe that you can break the law for necessity, or if it is actually more beneficial for society than following the law, but I just don't see those two cases ever applying here.

baxterpunch

The people selling pirated DVDs, CDs, and Games are the biggest part of the piracy problem. If everyone were just taking it for personal use, people would still have a problem with it sure, but the problem would be far more begnine.

I think music piracy showed the music industry that most people would rather download a few songs (even if they pay for each song) than pay 20 bucks for a disc. It may have destroyed stores like Warehouse Music, but online piracy was really the least of their problems if you want to get down to brass tacks.

I would neither condone downloading for personal use nor would I say it is wrong. The world is far to gray for me to take a hard and fast stance on an issue such as that. However, I will stand up and say that if you are profitting from breaking copyright law then I do not think you are doing the right thing, no matter how you couche it.

If you download for personal use, I say, good luck, if you get in trouble thems the breaks, but I also wouldn't turn you in and I think its a waste of resources to actively pursue you.

Ankhenaten

The lack of tangible goods makes a lot of people think that. But if it's not analogous stealing, then it's at least comparable to hiring a guy to mow your lawn and not paying him.

You get the benefits of their hard work, but they get nothing in return.

Marlor

nor should you take whats not yours, just basic logic really

Dakobah

For the record, I don't pirate games these days because I'm now a rabid collector, but the vast number of PS1 games I pirated when I was 14 did nothing to affect the sales of PS1 games because I couldn't have afforded to buy any of those games in the first place.

Just basic economics really; you can't spend what you don't have.

markusdragon

I wasn't really right to judge everyone who pirates, as I'm sure there are different reasons why each person does it, and different circumstances surrounding their choice to do so. Do I still think it's wrong? Personally, yes. But I hear you.

In other news, do I really think the pirating of GTA 4 will in any way really hurt Rockstar or Take-Two? No. This game will still sell millions, and they will still make millions.

It's the smaller development studios that do suffer a lot from this, and they're the ones that usually bust out a gem of a game.

Moridin

"Sure, there are framerate hitches here and there and (particularly on 360) there is some texture pop-in, but it actually runs better than I expected."

"For those wanting to know which version looks better, the edge goes to the PS3. The textures and framerate are comparable, but the PS3 has far less pop-in. The 360 has richer colors, but the PS3 has better anti-aliasing making it look a little cleaner. Because GTA IV can preload onto the PS3 hard drive, the in-game loads are faster. Don't worry Xbox owners, the load times are rarely more than 30 seconds and don't occur very often. The slight visual edge goes to PS3, but the 360 is no slouch. Either version will do you proud."

joelface

If they can afford the console, they can afford the game.

Look, we aren't debating the price of wheat and rice here, these are toys. Some people want their toys for free, and some of us realize that may not be the most responsible way to live your life.

baxterpunch

Then you don't know the definition of either piracy or stealing.

OmegaRed59

Krondonian

if rockstar was to look at how much games were sold on April 27th and it said 0, that wouldn't hurt them?

Dakobah

I buy games preowned, and if possible new. But always several years after the game has been released. I picked up Fable and Ninja Gaiden Black for £10 a piece, new. I bought games with my brother. Everything is instantly half price.

Last week I picked up FF XII, Okami, Black, Bully, Zone of the Enders, Red Faction II, True Crime: LA and Spiderman 2. (The last two were fillers). Total cost? £46. The price of ONE new Xbox 360 game. And Okami was the second most expensive game I've bought in about 5 years at £15. I know used games don't benefit the devs, but there are ways of affording your games. Legally.

Krondonian

your just justifying your downloading so it wont seem wrong to you, it doesn't matter how much a company makes all there games should be bought the right way and there figures should be true to each game sold.

but pirate and use ip mask all you want, your moral compass obviously is broken and im just talking to a brick wall.

Dakobah

But, leaking the game early is a somewhat effective move as well.

babbayagga

markusdragon

I suppose your right about the morals bit. It eventually comes down to that. My only point was that maybe we shouldn't be so quick to judge a person who pirates. Just my opinion, I'm wasting my time, but it's the weekend, and I've got a little time to spare.

xaosoax

Personally I don't beleive piracy as stealing. Take Two is going to make their money either way.

Besides, look back to napster. When the big music piracy boom happened, Record companies produced record profits. But they were so greedy that they tried to outlaw people from downloading the stuff. It's greed.

Don't support greedy companies, pirate games when you can, if you really love it/ respect the work, pay full price, or buy it used.

I only pay 60 dollars for games that, to me, are worth it. Anything else is downloaded, borrowed, or rented.

ViperTooth

@Thorax: Pirate Bay does not rip games, that would be stupid of them, as they would be shut down immediately.

ara

xaosoax

People that are pirating likely wouldn't have bought the game anyway, and saying it'll hurt the industry does shit. Those people aren't customers, they are pirates. Not all pirates support by paying for titles, and the ones that don't pay, won't suddenly pull money from their ass to make up these "imagined" damages.

Anyway, TPB guys are pretty hilarious.

超外人

Sorry for giving my whole life story, but you called me out on it. Point is: when I was poor, I spent money on essentials, now I'm better off, I get to buy whatever the hell I want.

Video gaming is a relatively rich man's hobby, and it's definitely not an essential that people should feel they have a right to steal.

baxterpunch

I see your point, and respect your opinion - and thank you for the well thought-out, civilized response. I appreciate that.

I understand that some folks don't make as much money as others, I don't make a whole lot myself - and I definitely agree that life isn't fair. It's anything but fair. Heh.

I have said in the past, though not here, that the industry should really take a look at pricing as a way to combat piracy. $67 (rounding up, with tax) is a lot of money to a lot of people. It's certainly a lot of money to me. I think finding a way to drop the price-point of new games will help ease the burden of needing or wanting to buy.

Now, as far as most games being shit, I can agree with that as well, but you can't use that as a reason to justify piracy.

There are a lot of ways to find out if something is good or not beforehand, and you don't need to resort to downloading the game illegally. Read reviews. Find the reviewers whose word you can trust, and see what they think. Watch videos. Download the demo, if available. Hell, rent the game even.

It all boils down to morals. If you personally find it morally wrong, then you're not going to do it. If you don't think it's wrong, then you don't have a problem doing it.

To each his own. I have my views, you have yours, and every other person has their own.

Oh, and I use iTunes. :P

(Sorry if this came out rambling or incoherent, I'm tired. Long day, but at least the weekend lies ahead.)

Moridin

Spoony Bard

el bryanto

@Kajetan: you're being naive to say piracy doesn't hurt the industry.

if 1,000,000 people pirated GTA, thats how much money rockstar wouln't see.

Dakobah

negativexer0

phicaluk

It's not as easy as simply saying you can buy a tv, xbox, etc. My TV is about 8 years old. My 360 set me back for about 6 months. Mod chips aren't exactly the best way to mod a 360 as someone else posted, people usually just flash the drive; much cheaper.

The point is, sure,I can (and do) buy maybe 5-8 games a year. But can I afford more? Not really. Plus my wife would kill me.

We are completely inundated with video game promotions constantly, yet where I'm at we're going through such a serious economic crisis where suicide rates have tripled. 60 bucks a game? Filling up my gas tank takes priority, sorry. When under these circumstance, people start to pirate things. And in some countries, this is every day life. Don't be so quick to judge people, that's all I'm saying. Pay to play? Harsh dude. You clearly have it good.

xaosoax

el bryanto

Idontloveyou

tis true. honest.

:3

Onizuka-GTO

Reverend_MoJo

xvitium

Still, there is no proof, that piracy is affecting sales in any sort, negative or positive.

And for the record, i am making money with selling (!) computer games. Enough people are still buying. What a shock!

Kajetan

enspik

A friend of mine who worked at Infinity Ward was recently laid off with a handful of other folk - and he mentioned massive piracy numbers as well, though I don't know if that was the root cause, considering how well CoD4 sold anyway.

[www.gamesindustry.biz]
[www.1up.com]
[www.gamesindustry.biz]

Idontloveyou

playclever

Kajetan

Coincidentally, this week's b3ta newsletter contains a story on that very subject [www.bruceongames.com] , click through to read about Imagine going from huge profitability to bankruptcy in the space of months after tape-to-tape copying became widespread.

phicaluk

In retail, companies budget expected theft into their yearly revenue and profit expectations. As rampant as piracy is now, I am sure that distributors, producers, and developers do the same (if anyone works in this community, feel free to correct me). Who ends up footing the bill? The consumer. Those that claim that they pirate games to ensure they get their money's worth are doing nothing more than ensuring that the price rises, if quality is such an issue for a title, rent the damn game, at least the people who spent months working on it will get a little credit back.

Point being, people complain about a $60 price tag on a nexgen title and use that as an excuse to pay nothing, when that price is directly influenced by the fact that people choose to d/l it instead of paying for it. Don't be lazy, do some research, rent the game, play the demo, figure it out.

If anything kills the current console gaming boom, piracy will do it.

negativexer0

shoplifting leads to high prices at the store.

stealing in general leads to high prices that we have to cover.

yes people steal because there poor and they're poor because they steal. infinite continuim

Dakobah

I can't afford a porsche, doesn't mean it's ok if I just jack one from a parking lot.

Plus, I find it hard to believe that someone can afford a TV, Xbox 360, memory card, PC, mod chip, burning software/hardware, internet connection, electricity, and a place to put it all in, but somehow that extra 60 completely bankrupts them.

baxterpunch

xvitium

Kajetan

xIvSlowDeath420

Idontloveyou

If you can't find The Pirate Bay without a direct link from Kotaku, you should probably just give up using the internet. For the record, although I'm not in favour of this type of thing, I have used The Pirate Bay in the past (mainly for finding US TV shows and such) so it would be hypocritical just to label them a bunch of douchebags. And they do have a sense of humour, it's undeniable.

phicaluk

No, seriously, why all the hate? This is NOT stealing! It's just un-authorized distribution of copyrighted material, not a major crime. And ... GTA4 WILL be a major commercial success, despite all copies in the world. So why all the hate?

Kajetan

The truth is, the vast majority of games are shit, or at least definitely not worth 62.99 a pop. For some people, saving up for the ridiculous prices on games is very difficult (near impossible in some cases). There's a reason why piracy is so rampant in third world countries.

Not everyone makes as much money a