For anyone that has said anything about this being a 360 title. I honistally don't think that it would work out being a 360 title. I own a 360 my self and Just how it is a 50gig disk and everything. Doesn't really fit what the 360 was made of.

isbdavid

ehutch

thecubanratio

MaxMyrtilus

solidsquirrel

inphi

mundox

Lanontscuz

This doesn't surprise me, though, either. I still look forward to it.

alienmastermind

Let's be honest, is anyone here not going to get the game now?

TeaBean

krel

Kempatsu

cheeses

This is of course far from the first time Kojima has bashed one of his titles or said they hit the ceiling of development, in fact I think he has said as much for everything he has put out, but I don't remember him ever saying anything close to this BEFORE the game itself is out. Sony is no doubt none too happy either.

I'm still hoping with better tools and the larger sized BD disc coming out down the road will help this problem, as I don't want this to be my last MGS experience on the big screen.

DeeBG

mescalineeyes

kitenai

So since they look like "The Sun" (sensationalist with 0 credibility news paper in England) of videogames i wold assume that Kojimas words were twisted just a little bit so this wold make a big story for them.

Krumm

shaunomacx

I've always loved Metal Gear Solid, all the games, but this one... im not so sure.. like a flying meduse? Vamp.. I could accept, but now it looks like its doing a little to much crap... I'll still get the game, but I'm not sure I will enjoy it this time around.

Kleppe

no to both of you. buy the mag/read the article.

mescalineeyes

I'm looking at you, DATEbook.

japFA

Pawsie

voidler

man in gauze is king ramses II, silly.

number_77

HernanGL

zanzibarlegend

Denver80203

artofwar420

ManjiKengo

zanzibarlegend

Xephos

every time after I have watched it, I take my ps3 out for dinner & dancing.

mescalineeyes

also, whoever made the post on how we'll likely see kojima's actual vision here 10 years in the future - the way anyone who played the original Metal Gear 1 & 2 on Subsistence knows he wanted Metal Gear Solid for like a decade - just wanted to say, thanks for understanding what i believe Kojima was saying here, and not just, you know, running the ball in an awkward, horrible fanboy direction. I agree 100%.

TheIrishNinja

Q80

zanzibarlegend

Candlejack

mescalineeyes

They were accurate creations though not in my mind, when you're a perfectionist you know all the flaws, however minute and you want to move to the next project to improve on the last.

All machines have limitations and always will. Regarding hardware I know the hype companies made for their products can sometimes barely reach the expectations of consumers, let alone artists.

In the meantime just because Kojima is dissapointed in his product and it isn't different enough from his previous games in his mind doesn't mean it isn't a very good game.

scotty999

I'm still tempted to buy a PS3 just for that game, since I'm such a big fan of the franchise.

jlhuge

zanzibarlegend

alby13

Get. Fucking. Real.

Kojima is a movie maker trapped in a game developer's body, and he wants cyberspace matrix 3d whoosh from the future; we all know he does. That he's disappointed means basically nothing; his game will still be a great one.

I'd be more worried if he said something like "i think my game plays worse than it should". He's merely said he thought they could deliver ACTUAL magic and couldn't. Big whoop.

MGS4 is still the game i'm waiting for before i pick up a PS3.

Sunjammer

I think he's complaining about scope in the design sense. Like being able to make everything in the game a fracture mesh and use it as a weapon while running around in a simulated 10mile area kind of whackyness. Honestly you can always do more, but you have to ship at some point. Physics material systems can get pretty complex these days on top of procedural geometry processing -- which is a CPU domain issue.

Also you can only do so much with the RAM on consoles, and it's not like people on Windows XP computers can use even 4GB of RAM and 8 cores, so you can't go crazy there either really.

This gives us more to look forward too later -- being able to simulate pulling off someones arms and killing them with their own humorous just isn't enough anymore.

Mongoosekun

The dreamcast had twice as much graphical memory as the PS2, but did the best of the dreamcast honestly look better than the best of the PS2? It's not about hi-res textures. It'a about filling a scene. Can the raw power of the 360 push more objects round the screen than the PS3? On paper the PS2 could push more than the Dreamcast. On paper the PS3 can push alot more than the 360. Remember X-squad by EA for the PS2? it looked like a dogs dinner. Then look at some of the later games like GOW II, FF XII, Tekken 5 and so on. They look amazing. We will be looking at Uncharted in 5 years time laughing at how crap it looks next to more recent releases. The Xbox is easy to program for therefore it's potential will be quickly realised. The PS3 is harder to program for, and it's potential will take time to realise. Therefore! You ain't seen nothing yet pal!

Please can everyone stop going on about video memory, be it defined, undefined, big or small, pink with flowery patterns on it. It's something that fanboys have picked up on because it is easy for their little minds to understand. I got news for you! It's only for goons who spend their time on a game staring at the walls or floors comparing dick size who give a crap about stuff like that. Just enjoy what you have infront of you!

(please note I'm talking about graphics, not how good a console is. The Dreamcast is still my fave console of all time. Until they release Samba de Amigo on the Wii, and that's only if it is better than the origional or 2000 edition... )

I'm sure MGS4 will be amazing despite what you think kojima is trying to tell you about the power of the console it is running on.

Single player wise, every metal gear game (maybe not the one on the GBC) is better most games on the current gen consoles. To some people you could say better than them all. I can't see how this one is going to be anything less than amazing, or be better on any other console.

GOD

mdelcomyn

Suzaku

1) Eighter Konami is pressuring him to launch the game on the 360 too, so he is finding a way to be pleased and accepted by gamers!(Hope not on the 360)

2) Or he is too much honest and too much perfectionist, as I believe every deveoloper or director is 100% satisfied with his own work, as there is always improvments that could be done.

3) Or maybe it is a way of getting away so he can done another sequeal, after he said that this the last game in the series.

4) Or maybe there was something that gone really bad during the developing of the game and there was not enough time to start all over again.

5) Or lastly it can be be that this is a way of getting away, or brainwashing the gamers so he can release some sort of MGS4: Subsistance, Existance or whatever.

I admire Kojima to the full as I'm a great MGS fan, but I'm sure that it isn't the Cell processor. Not sure if Kojima wanted to do a game that looked like Final Fantasy Advent Children. In that case I think its impossible for todays console technology.

Afterall I'm still eager and persisted to buy MGS4!

nemesis_88

Kojima's team started making plans for the game before they got the PS3 tech-specs, and then when they got the tech-specs, they realized it wouldn't be able to handle everything they planned.

It's not really an issue of PS3 not being good, it's just that, I guess, he and the team were making plans for something not possible with current-gen hardware.

Suzaku

terras

Viet0ne

Demoneyejin

There's always a limit on how much data you can process. But the limit to how much you can fake is much further. And in gamedev, faking can be made to look better than physically-simulated (real, but with limited precision, actually). And there are countless and increasing ways to fake. It's the end-result (visual) that only counts.

somarix

somarix

eagle14

Witzbold

OuTLuWz

@DigitalHero: agreed, glad someone else remembers the same song about MGS2.

ps wasnt 6/10 score for MK? some of you seem to be mixing that up.

TheIrishNinja

Sugaray

Aioria

Overall I think MGS4 will be fantastic even with his doubts.

Kung

Silus

I'd like to say that this news is conclusive evidence of the Cell's deficiancies. That even if it's a wonderchip in other respects, it has no particular talent to improve video games.

But I can't. Whether Sony's hype machine long-running since Playstation days has slowly eaten away at my reasoning, or I am simply applying that age-old principle of negative proof, I also cannot say. I'll merely game on without the PS3, but with a watchful eye for surprises. Or until Team ICO shows up.

Xiedo

Everytime I look at a PS3 exclusive nowadays, I wonder how much more the programmers could have achieved on the easier programming environment of the X360.

mcderek3000

EDGE Magazine are simply the closest thing that the gaming world has had to an ivory tower.

They frequently criticise games based on how they match up to their private theoretical beliefs of what gaming should be rather than more practical things like, say, fun.

Most likely, Mario Kart Wii was criticised for not being truly designed with the Wiimote in mind. One day, Nintendo will design a console with a USB beer cooler attachment and EDGE Magazine will dismiss all games that are not designed from scratch around the beer cooler.

mcderek3000

Jay

Didn't he say he was tired of the Metal Gear franchise? At least, I did hear he was interested in doing a completely different and new game series (which he added would be multi-platform at that time).

I'm not sure if he meant he was done with Metal Gear story and scenario-wise, you never know that he'd do a MGS 5 just to push for the penultimate MGS gameplay experience.

Byakko

You don't need to talk down on me because I've an opinion. That's mean, man. :(

Ping5000

SoleGrave

Actually you are not aware of very much at all. Stating one console is superior to the other in terms of processing power doesn't have a simple yes or no answer. Both consoles have strengths and weaknesses in the processing department. Graphically speaking the 360 GPU is more powerful than the RSX by itself. Fact. But the key is 'by itself'.

The architecture of the Cell bears some resemblance to a GPU. The Cell allows the PS3 to make up for RSX shortcomings because it can handle functions like vertex processing. If it requires mathematical calculations the Cell can show its capabilities. That is why it is humorous for people to make a blanket statement that the 360 has better graphical capabilities. You can't isolate the GPUs and compare them in a vacuum without regard to the processors with which they interact. The PS3 has 6 SPEs (the 7th one is reserved for the OS) that can be used in graphics processing to assist the RSX. They are doing this in development now but not with all seven. Not even close. But they are improving. As an example some devs are using one of the SPEs for dedicated hardware physics. More on that in a minute. Just to note you wouldn't want nor could you use all 7 for graphics.

The Cell moves massive amounts of information around like a GPU. One of the reasons the Cell kicks butt at Folding at Home is because the basis of that program finds its roots in code written for GPU architecture. It is the reason the Cell also handles HD decoding very rapidly. It does something that a GPU can do but no one has truly bothered with and that is the Cell is impressive in its ability to run hardware physics. Maybe with Nvidia purchasing Aegia we'll see some ground gained for PCs there as far as on chip physics support. It is supposedly close to release now.

Hatchetforce

Pattypie

dothedrewtoo

He just wanted more out of his game, he wanted that unheard of 11/10 game! So what if he has to settle for the 10/10 game!

DonFubar

ceilingFANBOY

ceilingFANBOY

Everyone thought that PS3 was E3 2005 killzone. But it turns out that the PS3 isn't even Xbox 1.5!

Graphically, I'm aware that it's inferior to 360, but i didn't know that Cell wasn't as good as it should (not compared to 360).

reptile168

Edge has always tried to be the serious games magazine but are gradualy fading from relevance. Giving a score as low as this (being that 6 is as low as anyone goes) just screams attention seeking to me. It doesn't really lose them any readers and they may even pick up a few from the anti Nintendo brigade, you know the ones that still say Nintendo only make kids /casual games.

Now I'm convinced I have to be wrong here cause a magazine using a bad review as a publicity stunt could never happen right?

niacin

Does that mean we'll be seeing an MGS5 though?

Frank

Then suddenly this edge mag comes out with cut down quotes is saying that the game is crap straight off the bat and the PS3 can't do anything too major.

I don't believe this as burnout paradise has a pretty damn large map, which they are going to add an extra 5 world maps.

zag011

Kiden4911

mescalineeyes

dollhead

//Isn't there some sort of honor in the Asian culture that would suggest that he's just dishonored his own company and everyone on the team that worked on the game?//

It is normal for Japanese to downplay their achievements, however they usually blame it on their own faults, and not usually because of someone else. Which leads me to believe either this was misquoted or there is something fishy going on....

Anyone know if he bashed Nintendo for how the MGS 1 Remake came out on the gamecube?

mikemil828

MechaTek

Maybe Mr. Kojima can include destructable environments in the next ZOE.

Yes Kojima you have a fan base for ZOE now go make it so you feel better! =)

MechaTek

Maldron

aelfin

nxp3

if he really wanted to show creative skill, i think kojima, and any true master artist works with what medium and restrictions s/he has, and uses the 'restrictions' as an advantage. much like a good jazz improv, a well-painted still life, a neat scotch, perfect gyoza, good short stories - there are restrictions, and the art and skill is subtle.

i can already see that they have remained passionate about their work, but i guess the rest remains to be seen.

i understand that the cell is difficult, and that sony/toshiba/ibm may have not been as helpful as promised - but if anything, i've lost a lot of respect i had for kojima from such a statement. it just seems very lame, or if anything, just big-headed.

now that they 'know' the ps3, i expect that (if they stick with the platform) they will do 'better' with the next project or any dlc. and as soon as he releases the game, i guess it wont be his to comment on anymore - and i won't have to hear such b.s. 'we didn't know' statements. psh! weak.

Atomu

I think if you have a developer says that they are fully satisfied with the end product, then they are crappy and lazy developers. You want your developers to never be fully satisfied, so they keep pushing for more.

and Please don't make this a whole hit against PS3, i think he was just a bit overly optimistic, in that he thought could be done. I doubt any current system including a ultra high-end pc would be able to handle all of what Kojima wanted.

chamber

You do not know anything about what the original fans prefer, do you? No. You lack objectivity. That said, any further explanations would be wasted on you.

Hatchetforce

Cruithne

I know where the man coming from. Being a perfectionist suck hard~

Sesshu

at least youre not alone; the trolling in this post is...jesus.

TheIrishNinja

I agree.. it's kind of scary seeing some people calling him an ego maniac for that comment.

He just had a vision and was unable to do it completely.

Then again.. they had 300 people working on this project.. if around 300 people couldn't crack the PS3 after what appears to be 3 years... then i odn't now how a smaller and more normal team could within time..

Pawsie

1) they gimped the controls (even if you're using real controler) to make them work with the less precise wiimote steering wheel controls.

2) The new tracks are designed for 12 players and feel empty and far too wide for four players. This means you're screwed for local split-screen play, which is the most fun thing Mario Kart offers. You can add 8 AI racers, but that really messes things up and misses the point of a four-player competition.

YMMV, but IIRC those were their main issues.

sarusa

Kojima is pretty much the best developer in gaming. I have no doubts that MGS4 will be, not only, the best MGS game ever released, but one of the greatest games of all time.

I have faith in only a handful of gaming icons.

In Kojima, we trust.

oldboy313

Samos42

Normally when you go around promoting a game you're STILL WORKING ON (it hasn't gone gold yet) you tend to say nice things about it... not s*** all over it or beat it down like your wife and kid after 12 beers.

He should be hogged tied and thrown into a mental institution for spewing this crap. Was he drunk when he said it? Will he retract his statements later? Isn't there some sort of honor in the Asian culture that would suggest that he's just dishonored his own company and everyone on the team that worked on the game?

Worse yet, he just gave unnecessary fuel to all 360 owners. And for what? the game isn't even out yet!!!

Then again, this could all be some sort of Jedi mind trick to get us to have low expectations for the game only to be blown away when it's released.

incredibilistic

Knight-Zero

Anyhow, I'm sure he's just being an overly-critical creator. I'm sure MGS4 will be quite a step forward with all the westernizing it's apparently been through.

GorbyGipper

symphony_of_the_night

KM91

I also remember in another interview his disappointment with the way the series had evolved, and that MGS should have been made as a totally separate franchise from his early MSX games (but of course Konami's marketing had decided otherwise).

I think he's just trying to piss off the suits and get fired the "proper" way. He doesn't want to end up in a Japanese cupboard for the rest of his life like Yu Suzuki, who never dared to voice his opinion when S*****e got axed.

PS: a remake of Snatcher (let alone Policenauts) will *never* happen.

Kaminari

Ping5000

muungano

Fukanzen

Kojima always claims his games miss the mark, weren't up to snuf, etc etc etc. It is his self efacing manner. Fans are used to it.

Hatchetforce

And Sony, just to be clear.

Anyway. It's amusing to me that people are surprised that Metal Gear Solid 4(!) is not revolutionary. It's something like the 6th game in one of the largest franchises around. They can't afford to do something revolutionary and risk pissing off the loyal fans. Now, that's not to say it's bad (I haven't played it and have no idea) just that it's a formula, just like the Halo series is a formula, or the Mario series, or pretty much any series that has been around for multiple console cycles. And from a graphics perspective, I'm sure I could have guessed that MGS4 wouldn't be revolutionary because, well, we've seen PS3 graphics. Nice enough but not revolutionary. Why would MGS4 be any different?

It's interesting to hear a dev speak so honestly on his new game though, even if his views aren't shocking. Points to Kojima for openness.

etho

Leepox

I still cant wait to play it. At least he isnt the super hype machine CliffyB is.

As far as mario kart for Wii...

I only like some of the tracks, it needs better classic tracks. Also the Blue shells kill the game for me. When it comes out in the US, you will understand what I mean.

randomshagz

I'm still excited as hell for the game.

I understand where he's coming from as far as never being satisfied with what he's accomplished, regardless of how amazing it is. I'm pretty much the same way (though I don't really do anything amazing hehe) .

demonknightinuyasha

He is making a comment about how his vision seemed achievable with his in-house development hardware before the arrival of actual PS3 dev kits revealed some unexpected limitations.

You might dismiss Kojima's statements since it's way early, but I will bet that Kojima's team is at one of frontrunners in pushing the PS3's capabilities. Still I wouldn't yet worry that the PS3 had already peaked. I doubt pushing the cell to its limits today will mean the same thing this year versus next.

gozirah

Listen, I am sorry that you felt offended. My point was graphics at this point are nowhere close to what they could be. Its not even about realism. Games will focus on artist direction long after uncanny valley has been conquered and we are all going to be surprised with what Microsoft and Sony are able to do in the next 5 years.

risingphoenix

Second though, this is a combination of Sony's incredible hype machine matched with one of the most ambitious game designers. Sony sold him a dream, and he believed he would get everything they promised b/c he wanted to make his grand vision.

In the end, you'll probably get a solid game that will likely push the envelope of current generation console graphics/gameplay/etc but nothing like the kool-aid that was being drunk by the fanboys and apparently Kojima himself.

The universe has a way of correcting rampant fanboyism, its just too bad no one ever learns the lessons and expects reality.

PS -this criticism does not apply only to sony fans.

OrionTheSmiter

GUNDAM-RX-78-2

Pillzee

i mean, i too, would love to build a game where you can do anything, don't have to worry about how many polys you have in your characters, and you can have 100s of characters on screen, all with incredibly complex Ai, sure, that sounds great, but we're certainly nowhere near that yet.

its not like if he had worked on the 360, that he would somehow be able to create the game better than he did on ps3, so i think its pretty silly for fanboys to use his statements as some kind of... argument for the superiority of their favorite system.

clearly thats not the point he was trying to make.

joelface

maraxusofk

zanzibarlegend

My post was in no way a "fanboy" post. I could give a fuck less which system is in first place. None of the systems is worth a shit without good games to play. And being that I've owned every console on the market at any given time since the 16 bit era, I'm not biased in terms of what I play. I just want the most from my gaming experience as a whole.

And my point was not that the PS3 or 360 have peaked, my point is that REALISTICALLY given what we've seen on the systems to date, there's only so much more room for them to get better before they just top out and look photo realistic. That being the case, developers should start working more on AI and expanded levels of interactivity with NPCs.

Maybe you should go change YOUR panties. Your reply came off a little bit as though you have some sand in your vagina.

mydjsobad

MGS4 will be amazing, epic, and blow everyone's mind.. but it won't be perfect. Neither will GTA4, or any other epic-scale release.. ever. There will always be a nit to pick, and I think Kojima - as much as I love the guy - completely fails at PR.

cornunderscore2x

I'm buying that game, hands down.

electricmine

Clipping aside, the texture resolution was more consistent (and varied) than any console games out there so far. The streaming could use some work, but most textures were great up close. Very few were extremely ugly so the contrast can hit you like a brick at times.

SG79

Orionsaint

This does mean MGS4 is a bad game, not in the least. We all saw the live playable demo vid and we can all agree that was impressive. It just won't be the exaggeratedly mindblowing futuristic game we were led to believe it would be when it was first shown at E3

Orionsaint

Spartan1308™

Kojima seems like a good guy, and it's nice to see someone like him talking like that, and not blowing smoke out of his ass.

Well, I'm still stoked on the game. I've seen every trailer now, and have the Metal Gear online Beta installed and ready to play on the 21st, so far I'm impressed with what I've seen. I really hope it turns out well.

Kind of concerning to hear him talk like that, but hearing about how much a perfectionist he is helps.

TheOtis

no_problem

Orionsaint

Besides, I hope you're not serious about Sony having shitty software engineers. The PS3 is a beast that needs controlling and Sony had to come up with powerful development tools in a very short time. Sony's game studios are pretty good at using their console's power as well, which history proves. Give it some more time and you'll get your highly anticipated in-game XMB.

Candlejack

rdj

Yeah it must be a lie when no nothings like John Carmack say that it is the most powerful of the 3 consoles. Not the easiest with which to work, but the most powerful.

But then again, he didn't think they would ever be able to synchronize the SPU returns to a sufficient degree.

Hatchetforce

He mentions the CPU, because that is what holds the PS3 back, it doesn't actually have the most raw processing power. Cell is a theory based design and before it no one had really fully tested or programmed for such theory.

Lucidity

BrianC6234

Anyway, MGS4 looks to be a fun and gorgeous game, I'll be getting a copy. And I'm no fan of the series, I've seen a bit of MGS3 on PC and didn't like it. The ability to stop being stealth and go gung-ho at places is what won me over :).

somarix

Kojima was probably given some of the Cell data and had higher expectations, like everyone else, of what could be achieved than was possible.

In any case, the PS3 is still a good system and MGS4 will be a great game. I just don't understand why people can't take the slightest bit of honest criticism regarding their system of choice.

jayntampa

zonetrooper5

itduzzinmatta

However, it is something completely different to say that either the PS3 is a bad machine or the MGS4 won't be a good game.

I'm pretty confident that MGS4 is going to turn out A-Ok, and I wouldn't have bought a PS3 is I didn't think that there was some promise there.

Will the PS3 ever be what Sony tried to sell it as? No, no way ... and, most of of that that had been through Sony launches before knew that.

Will the PS3 be a great gaming system? Definitely, and sooner, rather than later.

It's really all about expectations -- some Sony marketing and business people set the expectations for the system too high, so I'm sure Kojima-san also believed he could get more than he could. So, he had high expectations that he couldn't meet -- although, it wasn't his fault.

I agree with what he said that it's not showing disrespect to the PS3, he's just being honest. It also explains what took so long with the game.

jayntampa

y2kenjination

OT79

urban_ryoga

1 - Nothing will ever even meet Kojima's expectation of something, he may think he does... but he dowsn't. Even if MADE A CONSOLE......... he would find it limitative...
2 - (I don't know if I can say this) Check IGN for "Metal Gear Solid 4 Q&A, and the preview of 14 journalists that had the chance to play the game and help Kojima's crew "perfecting" the game.......

[ps3.ign.com]

[ps3.ign.com]

PS: So, answer ALL MG Answers in MGS4!!!!!!!! But create MGS5...........

johnamanel

George Lucas had limited tools to work with when he created his masterpiece, Star Wars. But he managed to work within his means and even revolutionize special effects techniques. If Kojima manages to do the same with MGS4 then he will have succeeded. He could always remake the game when technology catches up to his vision, like Lucas did with his movies.

flashtut

Sometimes I'm glad developers are limited by platforms at times, as long as the game doesn't seem broken in the end like Xenogears...

(I hope I didn't just cause a fire...)

urban_ryoga

ostartero

urban_ryoga

M

Well, where I work all of our Servers CPU's are utilized 100%. However, shitty code means our app will work very slow no matter if we are using 100% of the processing power.

By the excerpt of his statement he seems to be implying that their engine is perfect and can't be made more efficient to squeeze out better performance.

You should not take as the limit of what the Cell processor can do. It is the limit of what their current engine can do based on the amount of processing power the ps3 gives them right now. All code can be made more efficient to squeeze better performance out of the same processing power.

WELL SAID!

topbravo222

CaptainAtman