But as is said, change is the only constant. Some day English will no longer be the major language, or the English language will be so changed after adopting more foreign words that it may as well be a different language. It just won't happen in my lifetime, or probably my grandkid's lifetime.

bnpederson

Btw in IM, even if the languages of both participants are very similar, we use English. Keeps communication simple, easier, faster.

Now, send some more decent Eng teachers to JP and worldwide, there's a lot of xenophobia to be eradicated.

somarix

Now, I take issue with the idea that China will be a significant market for games, above and beyond that of America, any time soon. The vast majority of the Chinese population are still in serfdom and have unreliable access to electricity, never mind their own gaming PCs, high-def TVs, or consoles. You're making an assumption that larger population means a larger market when that's just not the case. And that's not even considering the significant amount of socially accepted piracy going on China, well above that of any western country.

But that aside, yes English will eventually no longer be the commonly used language in the tech world. And when that happens English speakers will have to learn a second language to create and adapt technology. This isn't something that happens because we're being "insensitive" in the west, it's just the way business works.

bnpederson

Since the Monitor was released, western developers have always been pushing the engines because of our monitors. 1280x1024x32 became a benchmark reslution since Homeworld and that's nearly 7 years ago or something.

So I don't really think there is much debate here, Japan is just starting to get used to the concept of pushing graphical limits now that they are forced to with HD being a big part of consoles.

Have they actually caught up with Western engines. No.

Aside from all the added weight that comes with Western engines (physics, hit boxes, fully manipulatable environments, loads of characters on the screen, net code, etc) I've often found that western games have a lot more going on in the background as well.

Performance subtracted on things you don't care about = Performance gains on things you will be focusing on. This is often what I've felt where Japanese games get their graphical ummph from.

i.roboto

"What we've found in this generation-and here are some scary numbers-is that writing an engine system designed for multicores, that can scale to multiple threads efficiently, takes about double the efforts as single threaded. It takes double the design effort, implementation effort, lifetime support effort, debugging…all the costs metrics multiplied by a factor of two for multicores. That's pretty expensive, but ends up being bearable.

Whereas, some of the other hardware trends are even worse than that, like programming for Cell, we found, had a [five-times] productivity divisor. It's five times harder and that really starts to hit…you have to question whether it's economically viable for mainstream developers to put real effort into it at that point. And then GPUs are trying to take a non-graphics algorithm and run it on the graphics processor currently. Given the limitations of those languages, we found that the multiplier there is 10x or more, which is well out of the realm of economic viability."

In this case I don't think it's so much the technology as the cost to make technology that truly gets at the power of the system. However he did mention that there are languages that will automatically multithread code for you later in the article but that they're still 3-5 years off so we won't likely be seeing them until next generation, which he said he thinks might even have near 100 cores in a system. O_o

Here's a link to the article actually: [interviews.teamxbox.com]

Nirolak

Nirolak

Despite launching 1 full year before the PS3, the 360 still looks graphically better. (since the NES days, we are used to seeing better graphics on the system that launched AFTER. unfortunately for Sony fanboys, it's not case with their PS3) Maybe Western companies are more advanced...

reptile168

sascha23

Or in other words: technology includes both hardware and software.

@somarix: Yes exactly. Japan just isn't one of the countries like Finland or wherever where learning English is second nature to everyone, which puts them at a disadvantage. If you live in Finland you need to learn English because you're going to have friends in other countries, you're going to want to read books which probably aren't translated, etc. Those things don't apply to the same extent in Japan; and if your only reason for learning a language is for work, *and* you're only ever going to use it to read documentation [no writing, no speaking or listening], you're not so likely to get great at it.

quen

Gray665

And in any case, as even the original GameBoy showed, it's about design, not technology. To use one of my favorite Japanese indie game examples, look at the roaring success of Higurashi no Naku Koro ni. It's a visual novel - it could probably run on a P100, and really as far as I know has NO technological innovation. It doesn't matter - good story, good characters, good storytelling, they all combined to make it a ridiculous success.

To avoid skewing it too far one way, you see the same thing in Western indie gaming as well though I'm bad at bringing up examples since the philosophy seems more tech first, design second IMO. I guess games like Gish or Aquaria even if improved over older platformers, they are still fairly rudimentary forms of gaming, but they win more on gameplay innovations than technical achievement.

The argument both ways is pretty stupid and frankly surprising to see on here after the big freakout about the last story to produce racist commentary on here just a week ago.

fuchikoma

UVaDave

Chupakun

ssh83

And I'm not sure how game engines and dev tools = tech. But whatever.

TheSmiterer

Sinnix

/ducks

rainofwalrus

Kleppe

EgoMonk

katboi

Then we'll have to deal with it, he's telling it like it is and if people get offended by the facts that's their own problem.

Morberis

Demaar

With the ability to license engines, companies have the option of focusing on original design from day one (original design has always been lacking in the truly high-budget Japanese games), rather than having to reinvent the technical wheel each time a new game is made.

mcderek3000

The "language barrier" they mention is this: when a researcher/programmer/artist develops something useful for games, regardless of his native language, he publishes the work in English. (to easily get more readers). Thus, this info is not readily accessible to Japanese developers, as you know how horrible Eng classes in Japan are (either bad teaching, or extremely boring, or Eng being discarded as completely unnecessary there). Heck, for this reason MSDN is translated in Japanese... the only language MSDN has ever been translated to!
(MSDN is well... 4GB of documentation in compressed+packed html format; imagine a 30GB folder brimming only with small text-files, this is MSDN).
And since JP developers mostly made games for Japanese consoles, the docs were always accessible. But these new graphics-gems, that westerners publish in English, are not.

I've read publications of JP gamedevs, and despite usually basing their stuff on western-published articles, those guys come-up with ingenious ways to implement and merge things. PS3-class graphics on PS2, was the latest I read.

But the JP devs don't make FPS - that's where you are constantly pushed to develop "better engines" (meh), or die of starvation. Physics was the previous selling-point, networking was before it, now post-processing is. A Japanese friend pointed-out to me that he regrets that there are no JP-developed FPS (except metroid). Meanwhile JP devs have concentrated on more important stuff: fun gaming (Disgaea, Patapon, Mario Galaxy, MGS, ZOE2, JRPGs,....) and superior/pleasant art.

The reason I'm a PS3 fanboy, is mostly because I expect those same developers to continue making their PS2 gems in a less-restrictive and easier-to-code platform. The PS3 is dozens of times easier to code for than the PS2 (there are much more cpu/gpu/ram/storage resources). I would be content if they bring PS2-class graphics there, but retaining/developing the fun factor they ace in.

somarix

In fact, I think that I like them more than the Unreal Engine 3 - they seem sharper and cleaner.

Then again, the West will always have an unfair advantage because of the PC. Just look at Crysis ...

mcderek3000

The insensitivity cuts both ways. Maybe one day you are going to have to learn to deal with Mandarin being the lingua franca of computing and games. Time to take out that Putonghua in 30 Days booklet.

Soldrak

2nd, the east and west have fairly different approach to games, and they build their tools to the game they make. (some time, fantasy don't need ultra realistic projectile physics) If you look at games like say...GT5, their engine is totally on par, if not better than western devs.

3rd, eastern devs are not use to licensing out their own engines for money like western devs do, they see it as more of a "trade secret" until recently. I'm sure we'll see impressive things to come from now on.

OmegaKulu

That has never changed, it's been true (again arguably as I'm sure some people enjoy being contrarian) since the 2D days of Ultima on the PCs versus Final Fantasy/Dragon Quest on the NES. Japanese have always ended up with 'better looking' games even with inferior technology. That's why some games on the Wii look a lot better than a lot of the stuff on "next gen" PS3 and Xbox 360 made using allegedly superior Western graphics engines.

Soldrak

Regarding middleware, however, it's often international distribution and translating the product into every language of every market it could be bought for is cost prohibitive to say the least. While Japanese would be one of the major languages to translate any documentation into (along with Spanish, German, and French in my experience) that's not exactly a primary focus of the developer, especially a smaller developer focusing on, say, particle effects in games.

And that's not even considering the issue of the Japanese company having problems with the middleware or wanting help to integrate it. In that event do you expect these companies to keep a bilingual engineer on-hand for ever major market? Unless they have a significant presence in the country that's one added cost for something that rarely comes up.

Sad though it may be English is the lingua franca right now; it's the largest market as a whole and many countries (including Japan as I recall) teach English at an early age. It's the 800 pound gorilla and non-English speaking countries are going to have to learn how to deal with it.

bnpederson

JamesHolden

Unreal3 is so ubiquitous because it has everything cept the kitchen sink in one package.

pb00

As to how hard is it for Japanese Engineers to learn English, it's about as difficult as it is for an English speaker to learn Japanese. How many people do you know that can explain advanced programming techniques in Japanese?

Sorry, but I'm just tired of saying that everyone should learn English. People should be able to speak their own language in the comfort of their own country. If you want to sell your product to another country, you should translate it and cater towards that country, not make your customerlearn your language just so that they can use a product.

ハリセンボン

Me? I'll be waiting till someone makes something with them that isn't 'repetitive boring FPS #5412' =/

Atomicvege

bnpederson

Jest

I don't understand. Western engines in english???.. .what else?, how you want germans, french, usa, australia, spanish, etc... guys share a engine?. It has to be in english. English is the first lang of engineers. And everybody from here to japan that write code, design stuff,.. learn english. Is a must, If you want to communicate with other people outside your country (read: always).
Is hard for japanese engineers to learn english?

Tei

Jest

cherrystarscollide

The language barrier is that a lot of the high tech stuff and development come out of English speaking or at least western speaking countries, so of course the Japanese take longer to incorporate them.

That said I thought Squeenix was switching to the Unreal engine after FF13? That Crystal Tools was going to be discontinued.

SSJPabs

dead_red_eyes

Gunhaver

Nice set of videos my man.

dead_red_eyes

CryEngine2:

+ Watch video

+ Watch video

UnrealEngine3:

+ Watch video

+ Watch video

id Tech 5 Engine:

+ Watch video

Emergent's "Gamebryo" Engine:

+ Watch video

Project Offset's Engine:

+ Watch video

FarCry2 Tech Demo:

+ Watch video

There's billions of others but I don't want to get banned for video spamming. This is plenty enough. The only point I want to make with this is really just evident by the fact I had to stop myself and it's simply that western developers are brimming to put put this stuff out there and this fosters plenty of cross-pollination of knowledge and tech. As for the East, I'll be honest and say I have no idea what they do but you don't see many tech demos from eastern developers at GDC and that's a problem.

okenny :)

GrimaceXL

And yeah! That's completely true. Unless those hardcore gamers actually have a billion dollar machine, most of them have to turn off the fancy graphics in order to have a better gameplay with no lags or other disadvantages.

And yet, the same hardcore gamers always seem to DEMAND better graphics. Oh, the irony.

It's interesting to take a look at numbers though... as some other commenter already said, japanese market is more interested in portables, Wii, and even older consoles than PS3 and X-Box360.

And even on PCs, in comparison to western countries, japanese people are far less concerned about having the latest graphics card, or the newest gaming PCs released.

Adding those factors it's easy to understand why japanese companies won't spend millions on developing some new graphics engine or technology.

It's not that they don't have the resources, or don't have people who can do that... it's a different market.

Squeenix is an exception. Why? Because it's market is worldwide...

And I also risk saying that those incredible cell-shaded graphics on the latest Naruto game has more to do with Naruto being a huge hit in the worldwide market than the anime being well known in Japan.

Bokusatsu_Tenshi

But for other parts of a game like physics... no comment.

Leanid

GrimaceXL

Let them focus their attention on making good games, even if this means they don't have the bleeding edge on graphics technology.

I'm kinda tired of being impressed on graphics demonstration videos only to be utterly disappointed playing the very the same games.

My 2 cents.

Bokusatsu_Tenshi

What I find amusing is that the truly 'hardcore' gamers in the FPS realm that I've seen (tournament play) turn off all the fancy graphics and modeling when they play.

The graphics aren't there for hardcore players.

Reilaos~

At any point in history one country may be ahead/behind another, but if we look at history in its totality we see trends of recession and prosperity, and therefore ultimate balance.

Japan was previously lacking in a 7th generation console (PS3) and a substantial PC market; whereas the West was not lacking, in that they had the 360 and a PC movement that could still stand on its two feet.

Now, PS3 exists and is very much coming into its own, and the PC market here in the West is somewhat dwindling, or at least in need of restructuring. Checks and balances, ladies and gentlemen. Equilibrium.

JohnnytheFuture

Think you're better than Epic or Id? Then how about you show us a real game engine BEFORE Unreal Engine 4 comes out. You know, before the turn of the decade is over.

Daizzy

Still, when you are the creator of MGS you can say whatever you want IMO.

wild_world_girl

Techniques for creating smooth surfaces were also created by western researchers for the most part. So it's not a surprise that western developers are on the forefront of the latest graphics technology.

reddevil3

Shinryoma

Japanese gaming didn't became as advanced as western counterparts not because they they lacked resources or people to do that, it's only that the gaming market is kinda different.

Yeah, I'm kinda tired of the "western gaming is superior" discussion.

Hardcore market in Japan exists, but is nowhere near the hardcore market in US or european countries.

But I only wish I could read and speak japanese... there are so many great games in Japan that doesn't make it here only because they are not triple A titles.

And I can't careless for ultra high quality huge graphics and shit. I'd rather play a 2D sprite game that makes me laugh rather than a game with impressive realistic OMFG incredible graphics with some repetitive boring gameplay.

But that's just me.

It's like... I probably had more fun playing Karoshi 2.0 than... the Crysis demo for instance.

Bokusatsu_Tenshi

NoBullet

Aerundel

The idea of east versus west though is foolish at the end of the day because it's really people who are making this and not countries. As East and West become more homogeneous, we will see more of a synergy that will ultimately bring about better tech.

okenny :)

I think alot of Japanese-made engines are more game-specific whereas western engines are often used for a more wide variety of games. But I'm not pretending to know anything about programming beyond a text-adventure I almost made in Q-Basic when I was 17.

dowingba

Manimalius

TheCleaningGuy is no longer (that) disappointed with DMC4

SpishackCola

islandknight

Ejvid04

Then again, if they're behind in tech they can always compensate with artistic style and modeling. I do hope they learn the ins and outs of network multiplayer soon though.

muu

Nirolak

neoraul20

neoraul20

Captain Impulse

Anemone

Elijah Man

brello

Wolfers

It's so grimy and overused. Hurray for NEW engines.
Languages shouldn't be a problem. Ca'mon it's not like we have to look for another Rosseta stone we have the internet.

Schoolimangooli the doogie mag goosie!

TheCleaningGuy is no longer (that) disappointed with DMC4

zombieman3421

Soldrak

DarkFestim

AZRoboto

Elijah Man

Megan Fox Iz Hot! ^-^ - ph15h

Nirolak

I expect more of Japan, when it comes to technological advances. When I visit I always assume I will see something new and mystifying. Japan, please don't disappoint. Please live up to your stereotypes.

JohnnytheFuture

I totally agree. They still don't understand the words "Hurry up and release FF13 ALREADY!" in ANY language...

Xideo

Artdeux

onomeister

Soldrak

Ryosukekun21

Maaxxx

tajash