freespeech

"Don't do what we don't want to do that would be bad."

HornyMelon

Every season? I've had XBL for almost five years, and the only unplanned outage I have ever experienced was this past Christmas. That's better service than I get from my ISP, my power company AND my wife.

Just wait until Home comes out to see what frequent outages looks like. I don't even know why Sony is wasting so much time on that Second Life imitation when it has so many other obvious problems with it's online service. Sony needs to make the XMB available in-game, and they need to do it last year. My PS3 is a blu-ray player only because I love multi-player and multiplayer is intolerable on the PS3 when you are used to all the XBox has to offer. Exiting back to the dash to send invites, messages and friend requests? Rediculous! Wildy varying standards from game to game? No chat at all in some games. Some games you can't just mute a single player but have to mute everyone. Some games dont' display the tag of the person speaking. These should all be standard features for every game before it is certified for multiplayer.

robinandtami

It wasn't extreme, written in 1337, done with obvious hyperbole... Nothing... It was just saying, in plain text, what many 360 fanboys with sour grapes say.

bobtheduck

ErskinPig

jacksons98

Pinhead

Windows isn't a closed platform that only runs controlled, signed code. Windows will run any code written for it.

The 360 only runs signed code and Microsoft wants to keep it that way.

Completely different situations. There is no reason to even compare the two.

Rectangle

second, live networking is really only there for the xbox, and i agree its not too useful for an indy pc dev working on a game, its good enough for any community type person build a small game. but if you dont like it, roll your own networking. on the pc theres nothing to stop you. on pc you can even invoke in to native assembalies

cubed2D

Jimbo4

GMC

ErskinPig

I'm a little disappointed with their nazi attitude towards networking however. I can understand it for the Xbox, but not the PC. However I AM drunk and lack the facilities at this very moment to check that you can't just do normal C# networking with XNA on the PC. Possibly not, given their disastrous keyboard support.

nih

Good times.

Im sure nowdays its not as bad thankfully since shit has gotten so complicated that its harder for any tom dick and harry to go and try to make something "coolioez"! Then toss it up on the net to everyones dismay.

Witzbold

Pound my tom-tom

This is FUD. The odds of a mod exploiting a flaw to destroy your machine and be widespread enough to do serious damage is the same odds as a launch 360 making it to it's 20th birthday while being played 24/7 while wrapped in a blanket with the exhaust covered by a fuzzy slipper.

kingmanic

If it's about security risks, then XNA is a far greater potential risk than allowing unreal mods. At some level they're both running 'native code' on the machine; unrealscript is performing a narrow range of tasks on a potentially insecure engine, while XNA is running practically arbitrary code on a potentially insecure 'sandbox'. Both presumably were verified thoroughly for security holes, but in the past that hasn't stopped anyone.

So essentially Satchell is engaging in FUD, a pretty standard Microsoft practice. 'Hey, developers, these other companies are being dumb about security, and you'll have your titles pirated! Not us! We'll protect your IP like it's our own.'

Maybe time will show that XNA is truly secure, or maybe MS will have to rush out firmware patch after patch to keep up once it's broken, ala PSP.

obonicus

reptile168

FIXED

Also UE3 doesn't allow native code mods on PS3. I also assert XNA isn't as secure as unreal script -- whatever that tidbit is worth. Public relations failure. Insert new talking head.

Mongoosekun

also, why the hell are people bringing up home and little big planet in this discussion? saying that microsoft dont want user generated content?

First off, XNA is better than any game allowing mods.i could make a mod for unreal, i would be confined to what there engine could do. so for example, no soft body physics, it dosnt exist in the version of unreal engine running UTIII. With XNA, if i want it, i can code it. maby i want to mod instead of build an engine from scratch? ill get Torque X, a fully featured XNA game engine. Perhaps i want to make a game with soft body physics and use Torque X, i can get a license for the torque x source code and add in soft body physics. can i do that on the ps3? no.

Second, back to LBP. of course thats possible on the xbox, whatever Microsofts stance is on mods. It all self contained in the game, an in game map making utility. There are xbox games with map making, just not to the same degree as LBP, but theres nothing to stop a dev making a game like it

cubed2D

Rectangle

They don't have complete control over and insight into the code that makes up UnrealScript.

If Microsoft allowed Epic to open their game to any mods, but only if they signed an agreement that said that if a security hole was found in Unreal that compromised the 360's platform integrity, Epic would paty Microsoft a very large sum of money, I bet Epic wouldn't sign.

Rectangle

Rectangle

Maybe (just maybe) he was answering a question.

okenny :) ...building bridges (to hide under)

@cyblaster:

Blah, beaten to everything I was about to say.

man in gauze is king ramses II, actually

Anemone

Weasal

devilhunterx

I think the possibility for piracy is what MS is really afraid of. No one is going to blame MS if they brick their console because they downloaded a sketchy mod without checking the forums. MS is probably covered by the EULA or TOS for the mod engine.

But if someone finds an exploit in UnrealScript that lets them load pirated binaries, then MS has a serious problem.

rawg

bobtheduck

GOLD5

I, for one, think that UGC will be one of the defining characteristics of this console generation, along with the Wii motion controls and online gaming.

rawg

6. Mods

devilhunterx

As for Sony, somehow they've managed to build a very robust security system. Even with Linux being available for it, the console hasn't been cracked yet, and, if what hackers say publically has any credibility, it may not be cracked anytime soon. And people -have- been trying.

Even the recent 'Hello World' thing was an April Fools' joke.
[www.dcemu.co.uk]

+ Watch video

obonicus

Oh, and blaming mods for cheating is laughable, because mutators apply universally to all players and maps can't be played unless you download the map yourself, which isn't the most straightforward process in the world... Essentially, if you download a custom map, you can find all the issues with it yourself, and if it's glitchy, you shouldn't use it. Plain and simple. If you only use Epic maps, there's no cheating that comes from mods.

bobtheduck

@BradOFarrell: I was thinking the same thing... "Because, after all, Nintendo's platform is so... open..."

bobtheduck

ATimson

Zunnoab

obonicus

But by protecting their platform, they ARE protecting their users. In particular, they are protecting the users from online cheating that can be done by using hacked games.

Rectangle

But I agree that consumers have a right to feel safe with their consoles, downloading and playing a game should not expose them to having to reset their firmware, or inappropriate content from what they were expecting. But this is really a matter of making sure the users know when they're wondering off the safe, content controlled map and into mod territory. You don't download a demo from the PlayStation Store with the fear that it might do something nasty to your box, and you shouldn't. But when you go through the effort of downloading and installing some user created content, you know you're taking a risk. It's your choice and you should HAVE that choice.

Be wary of things that sound like "You live in a police state for your own safety." Do you really think they're that concerned for your wellbeing???

Zazu_Yen

leimeisei

Toprem

What a sorry way to say," We don't want to expend any time or effort into allowing our customers a better experience. They will get what we give them and like it."

Almost everyone here has seen through this schlep right off the bat. Thank God there are some intelligent people left in this world.

Listen people, you are not a customer to Microsoft, you are a user! They have all the rights, and you get all the limitations.

who cares

who cares

However, when you control the parameters of creating the XNA framework, shouldn't you be able to manage this issue???

BTW - too much sharing on the mono BTW

snowilli

Sooner or later someones gonna make an X-rated mod.

Onegai

mugido

I myself, have use more than 2000 mods on my PC, with zero problems on more than 10 years.

This is a well know dirty strategy know has "FUD", and I really hate it.
[en.wikipedia.org]
The sad thing, is that it worked, on this thread I see people that considerer the "dangers" of modding :(

Is a sad day, today.

Tei

Nitemare1

This is only speculation and I highly doubt anyone will be exploiting the ability to make these mods for any kind of "risky" gain. The UE community is pretty established and has a great reputation for producing grade A product. Why not give it a try Microsoft instead of hiding behind a possiblity that might or might not arrouse?

MosesMonster

NeoStarr

I'm guessing that they can't since Unreal Tournament 2003 had a very serious security hole in it.

Read all about it:
[www.gamespot.com]

This is the kind of stuff that Microsoft wants to avoid on the 360. Open up a console to unmanaged mods and suddenly hackers are going to be giving the console and the mod platform a lot more scrutiny.

You may not like what he is saying, but he is right.

Rectangle

cyblaster

targus

BradOFarrell

cubed2D

Konchu

But I do not see why there still cannot be certain allowable mods such as maps, models, and some basic game scripting.

One other concern though that hasn't necessarily been brought up what mechanism is in there to prevent inappropriate content. Unreal is nice about downloading the mod for you if someone is hosting the game and they are hosting a Nazi maps/models or Pornographic maps/models it can change the dynamics of things.

Really I think there has to be something better to police mods for it to work on consoles such as a web site were mods can be reviewed maybe even an option in game to only download mods from friends or ones that have been rated via a community site for safety and content.

Konchu

Anyway, this guy is just another fear motivated idiot. Lets make all of our decisions based on what could be negative consequences, while ignoring everything that most certainly would be positive consequences. Fear motivated thinking has lead to more idiocy than anything else in human history.

Generico

ATimson

VakeroRokero

RomeoDude

No surprise coming from MS, the most close-minded, proprietary company out there.

HeyApples

Microsoft created the xbox platform to push digital distribution as a way of subverting the open nature of their own windows platform... it's impossible to pirate content to the 360 and use LIVE at the same time... it's a much more foolproof platform.

i_lie_to_fit_in

I don't mind consoles being restrictive on user-content- the whole point of consoles to me is standardization. Then again, the only thing I really use consoles for is MP games- SP I'm pretty much exclusively a PC player.

arstal

Tiber

Mods adds lots of fun to games. Is practically the other 60% of a game like Oblivium.

If Microsoft don't know how to design a system so is posible to use mods in a safe way, other people will do.

Is posible for the PC, so why not for a console?

Also, If theres 2 systems where a game run, and one system able modability, and the other not, the smart people will buy the one that able moddablity...

..that is, the one system that is not from Microsoft.

So, Is your job, to able this. Stop with your FUD, and start designing a safe system and a download interface for mods. Don't be lazy!

Tei

But if they restrict it too far then even the permissive console crowd's ire will be raised.

Wait, who am I kidding? People even pay money for ringtones and wallpapers these days. The world is full of suckers for microtransactions.

fuchikoma

Come on, really? Mac OS X is tons more secure than Vista!

IanC

Blah-Blah-Blah

Agnostic

His whole "safety" argument is also fundamentally flawed. Yes I can't run homebrew on Xbox 360 because it's so "locked down" but anyone can easily modify their dvd-rom to play burned copies of retail games... something that still isn't possible on the PS3. Not only that but a lot of us had to buy a 2nd 360 console just to be able to count on one of the POS' actually working properly when we want to play a game on it, so we've even got an extra console that we're happy to play around with. That's what's shows their true colors to me, they could care less about people modifying their hardware to play copies--so they can cheat developers out of the money they deserve--but god forbid you figure out a way to do something without Microsoft getting a cut.

crackp1pe

ksins5

Personally I think mods (especially with HL2 engine) are at a happy medium right now.

The best engineers know how to compromise and make the best product for their customers

Callidux

One last thing inevitably all technology is infiltrated by hackers....

pABSO

And, anyway, don't seems that people abuse modding on the PS3 to make this. So no, ..is not a danger. And anyway, your console don't support it, and your players seems to have fun anyway, so I don't see a problem.

Tei

Let the spin begin!

Billkwando

To completely disallow any user-generated content seems to be a area that Microsoft may regret at some point. At that point they'll have to do some revisionist history on their previous stances, but as has been said earlier the current market isn't too heavy on user made content yet.

Dullshimmer

God forbid someone creates another Counter-Strike!

SmilingPolitely

What happens when virses start apearing on the PS3?

What MS is saying is that Mods can allow people to make viruses, and to say OSX is flawless or any other O.S is complete and utter bollox all O.S's have security flaws it's just that the people who make viruses normally go for O.S which is the most popluar.

Oh by the way, just because you have OSX doesn't mean you cannot get viruses. ALL O.S's can get viruses.
"

Are you simple? Do you understand what a map file is and how it can't be a virus.

This is what happens with years of people using such an insecure OS, like Windows. They believe the corporate BS that's shoveled to them.

How many viruses do you think Windows computers have got due to PC mods?

The only reason MS won't allow free flowing mods is because people will make things they don't like but more importantly it cuts into their profits. Pure and simple.

chiefpoopingpants

chiefpoopingpants

Totorototoro

This is something that he feels that "other companies" are unable to say, hence his argument that it's safer. Unmanaged mods and junk? Dangerous. Managed mods and junk? Slightly safer. That's it, nothing more...

"Really what works in this industry is the people who have access to that native metal of the console, that go through these processes, are financially invested in this industry; they wouldn't do anything bad. Developers want to do good things because they want this industry to work. There's a lot of people out there that just want to prove they can screw things up."

And if XNA wasn't limited by the framework and somebody inevitably put some bad code out there, which many would get... then everybody would cry about how "Micro$oft fails to protect its users even on the 360" or whatever.

ekkobi

What MS is saying is that Mods can allow people to make viruses, and to say OSX is flawless or any other O.S is complete and utter bollox all O.S's have security flaws it's just that the people who make viruses normally go for O.S which is the most popluar.

Oh by the way, just because you have OSX doesn't mean you cannot get viruses. ALL O.S's can get viruses.

MS could allow you to choose the best of mods, type of thing. I don't agree that MS should stop MOD's all together but I understand why they aren't allowing it either.

Geoff900

PCs have been doing it for years and if it wasn't for mods we wouldn't have some of the greatest games in existence today.

Give me a break.

Striderhayasa - Phillyyakk on PSN and Live.

Be very afraid....you don't know what bad monsters will do to you if you don't do as MS says.

hchaudh1

Ya, I don't know. I think it's sort of funny that the guy works at Microsoft and puts bad light on Microsofts two big console competitors and Microsofts only mainstream OS competitor.

User generated contect hasn't had any negative effect on PC gaming, infact it's made a positive impact to say the lease.

Nothings gone wrong with UT3 mods for the PS3? And I doubt their will with Little Big Planet either.

TheOtis

@GLaDOS
Windows OSs being the almost defacto of the industry has more to do with that than anything else. Yes, it has had issues going back a long way, but any of the hacking competitions out there will show you how easy it is to get root access in OSX, etc etc.

gestault

I know...but that can change....hopefully...

Vecha

Can you imagine Britney Spears shooting rockets...out of her rocket launchers in UTIII?

Suavo

Parsifal

I appreciate the thought about Microsoft's security being akin to the Titanic (any security philosophy should have humility behind it,) but there's a difference between a layer of security which is fundamentally sound (not allowing base-level back end access) and essentially no security at all (allowing base-code access when reading UT3 mods on PS3).

gestault

Sam_Lowry

Counter Strike
Team Fortress
Day Of Defeat
Action Quake
all were great mods.

TES3 and TES4 had some really freaking sweet mods.

This MS guy is just full of crap. Community Content is like whoa!

balls187 upside yo head

Heyyou27

Doomstalk

GLaDOS

I absolutely LOVE the user generated content in UT3 on pc and ps3, but that's the ONLY user generated content on the PS3, and people are jumping on it like its wholly prevalent on the system. Ever hear of N+? Yeah, user created levels on the 360 right now. Halo 3? Custom movies/game modes/level mods built right into the game, no computer necessary (Grifball is amazing.) Replays of any top score/time in PGR/Forza 2/ Ikaruga.

I'm looking forward to Little Big Planet style in-game user modification, but people are categorically dismissing Microsoft on this one, but they're not being crazy about it. This is a separate issue from DLC pricing, but that's also an industry-wide issue.

gestault

Modus_Operandi

I don't think Mirosoft as a whole are ignorant. They know people want mod's. They just aren't willing to do the leg work in order to make sure its safe on their end.

Walker

kingmanic

Sugarbloodsuckers

What he's saying is that its not safe unless you pay money for it.
------------

True that man!!!! ;) ROFL!!

Blah-Blah-Blah

K-Squad! (Badass Edition)

That is why I like the relationship that Epic and Sony have. As in an OPEN one. That is just wonderful. :)

Blah-Blah-Blah

Microsoft will come around to the idea of user created content. XNA is a good start (I've really been enjoying creating a game with it), but greatly limits the number of people that can participate due to the technical knowledge needed to produce an XNA game. Game mods tend to be a "little" easier to get into, opening the door a bit more to a larger audience of creative people.

========================
**Tries really hard not to take the bait and go into a rant about Microsoft already bricking most of their xbox 360's from poor craftsmanship. (gone through 3 of them the past 9 months >.< )

lostalaska

...or Windows.

There are a lot of hacks made for PC games but hacking is nowhere near as widespread as a lot of people think it is - some people are just better than others so they get accused of hacking. I spent £10 on HL years ago, and I'm still getting gameplay out of it today - dod, cs, battlegrounds, zombie panic, brainbread, sven co-op - dozens of mods that have kept people playing the game and kept it interesting, all for free, for a whole decade. HL and probably PC gaming as a whole wouldn't be as popular as it was or still is today if it wasn't for mods.

lordofsword

I suppose they want to say that DLC is the way to go and mods and such are bad or something. To me, it looks like a marketing thingy >o>

Hades

HibikiRush

Raziel Dune

idk about you but what ever cause we all know HL, HL2 Died because of Crappy Mods.

Raziel Dune

Oh and another point. Who here likes Counter Strike? Yes? Well Counter Strike was a MOD. A serious one, but a MOD none the less. So who here really thinks that MODS will be trouble? Or will they open the doors for gamers(who also have programming/art skills) to make new and interesting content for other gamers?

I want MODS for other games like Oblivion. The MODS for Oblivion on PC kick ass. I would love for them to be available for the PS3 players. They add a lot of replayability to the game. So bring on the MODS I say. Forget the naysayers.

Blah-Blah-Blah

To run a game on xna, it has to be written in a managed programming language, like C#. The main difference between managed and native code is the way you allocate memory. in managed code, you can just create an object, the runtime does all of the hard work. When you stop using it, the runtime discards it, cleans up the memory ready for use again.

In native code you have to allocate the memory and deallocate it yourself. you have to keep track of what your using, and clear up after yourself. This is alot harder to do, but you get lower level access to the memory.

So, what difference does this make to someone trying to hack the system to run pirate game, flash a hacked firmware, create a xbox bricking virus or even trying to steal live account info (passwords, credit card details, address, use all your ms points buying space giraffe). You would need to create some code to access the areas in memory relevant to your malicious goal. You cant do that in managed code.

XNA and .net guarantee that memory can only be allocated by the .net framework. unless you can find a bug in that, which is extremely unlikely theres no way in hell your going to get at that memory.

If they were to let any game devloper who wanted to let users mod there games, that means they have to give full trust to thoese devlopers to create something thats un breakable.

If you think of how most console are hacked, it down to bugs in games (for example, the legend of zelda hack for the wii). To let epic open un UT mods on the 360, they have to be sure theres no room for abuse. thats both malicious code and undesierable content. XNA has solutions for both of thoese things. UT probably dosnt.

cubed2D

But they are being penny pinchers when it comes to legit DLC from the game developers.

pb00

You know that's their only legitimate concern right? You think MS gives two dicks about your privacy or personal information? No - they just want to make sure you're paying for games.

squish123

Android8675

vincevl

crobar

penetraitor

parad0x360

No DLC unless it's free.

ErskinPig

Abdar

MS is just afraid anyone will cut into their draconian DLC market. @jayntampa: How can a mod brick your XB?

Well playing Gears for 6 hrs bricked my first XB so you cant blame a mod for bricking machine built like FIAT

dropoff

+ Watch video

Laughin_Caulk

FP_slomo788

MS System just can't handle it and their throwing a fit cause it would make their DLC look stupid.

Volomon

What The Geek

GPman

Hubert Humphrey Methadone

It still is nice they are allowing it, even on a small scale. It does invite "trouble" but they may be able to make a few more bucks, which is their goal.

超外人

Jest

jayntampa

Microsoft doesn't give a crap about security.

RaepGoblin

Athest

He has a point, though ... all it takes is one mod that starts bricking consoles, and you've got a nightmare.

However, the worse nightmare is when a mod slips through with some Hot Coffee-type content and you get sued for something a user does.

jayntampa

steliosco

I think the real reason is the DLC as others seem to be picking up on as well.

Corncob

ShadeofDante

Satchell: be silent, you slimeball suit.

ErskinPig

kingclip

How many times does Epic have to bitch to Microsoft about this before it finally gets through to them? Look at all the PS3 UT3 mods. People even created a Master Chief and Marcus Fenix player model, ironically enough.

Zeliard

MadMinstrel

I'm sorry...but I've been downloading mods for my computer since DOOM...and guess what? I've never screwed my computer up with the Modifications...mostly because I acted smart about it...and didn't download anything that I didn't know other people were using...

Vecha

Elderwulf