longcat is long

maraxusofk

@mewol: "aying I would focus my attacks on someone who "strikes me" as a total jerk was perhaps a bit inaccurate. They have to be acting like a total jerk."
What was that? I couldn't hear you over the sound of someone moving the goalposts.

Jonn

For example, let's say you "strike me" as a total jerk becuase [sic] your post is juvenile and nonsensical. Can I grief you?
Saying I would focus my attacks on someone who "strikes me" as a total jerk was perhaps a bit inaccurate. They have to be acting like a total jerk.

But if I act like a jerk, then yes, you should grief me. I'd deserve it.

As you point out, the problem with this philosophy is that nearly anyone can justify griefing because they view their target as a jerk. It has a touch of vigilantism to it. But perhaps that's necessary on the internet.

But it's hardly relativistic. Some things are right and some things are wrong. If someone's doing something that's clearly wrong (and I'd throw all the assholes who run around yelling racist and homophobic slurs into the "clearly wrong" category) then as I see it they deserve what they get.

Look at it this way; if someone's doing something that would get them punched in the face in real life, then I see no problem with giving them a virtual punch in the face. Hopefully they'll learn something from it.

mewol

Another good one, walling in someones boat with a fleet of your own ships.

Oh and gating in poison elementals to the roof of the bank. Those things could kill guards!

Derigor

If a group of people were sitting in a park, a public place, having a little chat, would you run through with a pack of penis balloons? Ok, maybe that'd be funny (I'd laugh), although some would probably be annoyed. Would you stand in the middle of them with that pack of penis balloons and dance around for ten minutes? No longer funny.

How about no visual obstruction. Just stand near them and yell a lot. Make sure they can't hardly hear each other. How is that acceptable behavior? In the "real world", it's not. On the internet, it's commonplace.

Zugdaga

Of course, your own argument against me doesn't quite work either. For one thing, how do you really know those Evangelists aren't just a bunch of people out to incite a reaction? How do you know those Furry bashers online aren't actually phobic of Furries?

The only thing we actually can confirm is that they're doing it, therefore, based on what we know, the analogy works perfectly.

Pezdispenser

eastx

fawrh

You could say griefers can only be griefed by those who don't play along. After all, it's depriving us of our fun.

That Lamer

Personally, I make it a point to focus my attacks on people who strike me as being total jerks. If you're being an ass in something I'm playing, I will try to kill you. Is that griefing? Technically, it probably is. Is it justified? I believe so.

Wow. So if everyone uses your criteria, every act of griefing is justified.

For example, let's say you "strike me" as a total jerk becuase your post is juvenile and nonsensical. Can I grief you?

"It's OK because I think it's OK" is the purest expression of relativistic nonsense you can spout. Even on the internet, with it's low standard for discourse, it sounds ridiculous.

Juminatriascala

If you want a real insight into what makes a griefer tick, listen to the 1UP Games for Windows Podcast. Sean (Malloy? I think that's the right one) loves babbling on for hours about how he loves to ruin other people's good times. Whether it's on TF2, Second Life, or whatever, he's a real jackass who thinks he's the life of the party.

I remember one podcast where they actually discussed his behavior and asked if he thought he was being a jerk, but no one in the room called him on it. It's just cowardly, immature, and pointless.

Juminatriascala

Yeah yeah, justify being mean to others online however you want. A dickwad is a dickwad, online or offline.

(I have no idea if you're a griefer or not, but throwing out a catch phrase in defense of an action is just annoying.)

eastx

Are you kidding? Nobody on SomethingAwful actually takes the griefing seriously, nor is any real 'effort' put into the generation of memes and catchphrases. Memes just happen.

Truly, it's a "Standalone Complex" type scenario more than anything else. There's no real concerted effort involved in any of this. You could just participate in a /b/ invasion on some random unsuspecting Yahoo! Live camwhore and be a part of it. That's really all it takes.

Internet. Serious business.

SolInvictus

Nothing wrong with griefing Goreans. I mean, they're a bunch of misogynistic troglodytes who relish the idea of torturing women. Chances are, they're likely sociopaths in the real world.

Can anyone provide a good reason NOT to cause them grief?

SolInvictus

Lord British or the CNET/SL interview people weren't trolls. And even the misogynistic homophobic racist who gets targeted has his enjoyment of the game lessened. They're still caused grief in some sense.

But sometimes that's okay.

mewol

SilverStar95

That Lamer

That Lamer

You have to consider who the target is before you can make statements that griefing is either good (or at least simple mischievous fun) or bad.

Think of it like a comedy show. Let's say SNL (which I admittedly haven't watched in probably 15 years). If they do a skit making fun of the president, that's totally fair game. If they do a skit about some lady who lives next door to one of the writers, that's not cool. Public figures are allowable targets, people just minding their own business who you happen to dislike are not.

By way of example:

Hunting down a newbie with your high-level character because you like picking on those weaker than you: bad.
Killing Lord British when he showed up on UO: good.

Raining flying penises on people who are just trying to have a good time and minding their own business: bad.
Raining flying penises on self-righteous CNET evangelists for SL having press conferences: good.

Repeatedly attacking someone because you don't like their sexuality/race/gender/furriness/politics/whatever: bad.
Repeatedly attacking someone because they're a total jerk: good.

Which is to say, griefing is sometimes justified, but only under specific circumstances. If you're throwing pie in the face of the powerful, if you're making an actual statement with some import beyond "hey look what I can do," or if you're defending others by "griefing" an asshole, then I say go for it.

Personally, I make it a point to focus my attacks on people who strike me as being total jerks. If you're being an ass in something I'm playing, I will try to kill you. Is that griefing? Technically, it probably is. Is it justified? I believe so.

mewol

Any who, I see griefing as a complete waste of time. I don't play MMOs, but in a game of Call of Duty, if someone is team killing, either pre-emptively kill them, or just find another game. I can see how that would be a larger problem and more difficult to avoid in a persistant world. In general though, I don't want anyone ruining my experience, and if your whole reason of playing the game is to ruin my enjoyment, then the matter of who is truly wasting their time becomes quite clear. If you actively seek to stop other people from having fun, then that makes you, for lack of a better word, a dick.

Really, its John Gabriel's Greater Internet Dickwad theory (combined with mob mentality) in action.

PurpleMonkey

SilverStar95

ggodo

schizosid

ggodo

Zeouterlimits

If you upend my chessboard, I will punch you in the face. Online, I cannot. That potential for pace-punching has a great deal to do with why people won't be as much of a douche in person.

ninjafetus

Please explain to me how the newbie that just bought an MMO and wants to go on his first quest, oblivious to what awaits him, is taking the game more seriously than the high level guy sitting outside the gate of town for hours waiting for newbies to come out so he can kill them and laugh as they go from gate to gate trying to get out?

Plain and simple, this "they take the game too seriously" garbage is an excuse which the griefers use to justify their actions.

brent_w

黒天使

"Do you think that perhaps the fact that it didn't work made the creators change the mechanics of the game?"

Definately. I'm well aware of that. I just loved the feel of it. Anywhere you go there could have been danger. It really felt like a frontier world run by the players.

Very cool stuff.

I know it's an idea that ends up only appealing to the most hardcore of the hardcore, but that kinda ties in with that frontier feel.

I couldn't play a game like that nowadays. I don't have the time to commit or the care to make friends with a gang of strangers for security.

It was one of the most captivating experiences I've had in gaming, though.

GorbyGipper

princess_stomper

eastx

eastx

Cameroo

Witzbold

I would later be guilded with that Hunter in what would become the #1 rated PvP guild in the entire world once arena S1 hit. We both agreed that the whole Badlands griefing event was one of the funniest, most embarrassing (for me) events we've ever experienced, and we both had a good laugh over it. Friends 4L!

Blinkman

@Pezdispenser: Yeah, but those evangelists are fucking hilarious.

Your analogy doesn't quite work because those evangelists genuinely think that about homosexuals. Internet griefers on the other hand would say those things merely to incite a reaction, even if they themselves might be gay.

@Everyone who says that griefers take griefing more seriously than the people they grief:

This is quite amusing. It's got to be the feel good statement of the century. It's like saying riffing B movies is a serious exercise in comedic improv, rather than what it really is: making a shitty movie bearable with your friends. The jokes are unfunny and the timing is off, but you laugh because you're just having a good time.

That Lamer

frostcircus

Otherwise... neat little report that leaked through rule 2

huginn

eastx

Señor Vorpal Kickass'o

Come up with the most ridiculous passion imaginable, create a web community around it, and proceed to take things as seriously as you possibly can. Wait for the griefers.

When they come, fight back vigorously, and never give up. Keep video evidence of the struggle and log how much time has gone into it.

Once you have enough war footage, edit it together into a nice little online video, intercut with shots of furries, Second Lifers, and other such folk going about their online lives without interruption. Wait for the griefers to see it.

That their war was for nothing, that they inadvertently supplied lulz to their enemy, that their enemy was not in fact their enemy at all, that their true enemy is still out there, that the well-being of their true enemy has been the cause of lulz, that th

It would be too much to bear

frostcircus

Pezdispenser

It seems like griefing is the only remotely interesting thing to do in Second Life, especially since so many people seem to take it way too seriously.

Powerlurker

It seems like griefing is the only remotely interesting thing that it's possible to do in Second Life, especially since everyone does seem to take it way too seriously.

Powerlurker

@KevinHalse: Banned douche is banned.

FP Furious_Liver, lacks independence

Tomahawk214

ChiltonGaines

Anonononomous

Guy 1: "Hey, you, you're dumb!"
Guy 2: "Shut up!"
Guy 1: "Why are you getting all upset?"
Guy 2: "I'm not getting upset"
Guys 1 and 2: "Let's get into a long-winded debate about internet fuckwads and the people who don't like them!"

What I got from reading the article was, the griefers, and the people who spend $10,000 bucks on a GAME, and the people who CRY over it, all need to get thrown into a BLACK HOLE. Sorry if that makes me an asshole, but damn, the has the internet made people so...insane? Is the internet really going to be the thing that messes us up. Shit, this thread is depressing!

ChiltonGaines

Powerlurker

ThatsMrOffDutyNinja

ThatsMrOffDutyNinja

NYLatenite

Yours was the most honest and sound comment I've read in this thread!!! kudos

In my personal opinion:
Griefers are a scourge to any game... I can't say I'm a harcore gamer.. (I have 1 full and 1 part time job, and a kid) so I can only play a couple of hours on the weekend, when I log on i want to relax, frag someone, get fragged a couple dozen times wrap up and sleep, people that think we should turn the system off are messing with my freedom, I should be able to do whatever the hell I want as long as is not illegal or harmful to someone else...

the griefers that claim they are not like that in RL are just making excuses I know you, you're the guys laughing and commenting during the movie, the ones that let the plot twist or end be spoiled for those who are still on line after the movie ended, you're the ones that smoke in restaurants. If any one can approve this behavior... you my friends are not fit for society.

those are my 2 cents ..... you can keep the change

bunch.of.wackos

uranutan

Insomnia Bob

Cirno

brent_w

brent_w

You fail at comprehension.

If someone griefs me, I will laugh, then I will ignore. I do not mind getting griefed from time to time, its the nature of the beast after all. And, because of griefers, we have ignore lists. Wow. Imagine that. A way to deal with them built right into the games....

nytestalker

Sabre_Justice: Okay, no more long name.

For example, when I'm in a lobby in lone wolves in Halo 3, and I hear some asshat say "hey guys, wanna do achievements?" I promptly reply "yea, anyone who wants to do achievements meet in the middle and crouch" (this works especially well on guardian and epitaph). When the game starts, I promptly run to the middle throwing grenades and mowing down as many of the little bastards as I can.

Try it some time - it's fun.

What The Geek

Griefers are immature losers, IMO.

Furries are people too.

@SilverStar95: Very well said.

Evil Tortie's Mom

Thats not only selfish, but pretty dumb. When a person is griefed in a game, most of the time the only way to ignore them is to stop playing. To stop playing a game YOU SPENT GOOD MONEY TO ENJOY. As a owner of the game, you have as much of a right to play it, as the griefers do. The difference with them, is that they are interfering with other peoples right and ability to play the game, hence why they often are banned. rightfully so.

bobeotm

nytestalker

I support a persons right to be a bully, just like I support a persons right to ignore.

nytestalker

heretrix

Abriael

And yes, I too have grown tired of this little back and forth. I considered explaining troll behavior and why mine doesn't match it (cause I'm not one lulz), but your inability to listen to a statement beyond "LOOK! SOMETHING I CAN ARGUE WITH!" is kind of taxing.

Señor Vorpal Kickass'o

Griefers are assholes. The ones who acknowledge that upfront and are honest about it are slightly less annoying assholes than the ones who get all righteous about it... but they're all people who derive their fun primarily or solely from depriving others of fun.

Since it's (puzzlingly) against the law to drown these subhumans at birth if they're found to possess the Griefer Gene, those who disagree with the idea that someone else has to suffer to have fun will have to find some other way to rid yourselves of their pernicious presence. I recommend vigorous use of ban commands, mute options, and "report player/user" functions... at least until culling becomes legal, anyway.

And if the griefers squawk about getting kicked, well, obviously they're taking the game too seriously, and should be driven out for their own good.

-- Steve

Anton P. Nym

bobeotm

zerokoolpsx

The 'good ol rock, nothing beats rock' defense, eh?

People tell you lots of things. Things you should research and come to a conclusion about.

If you havent researched that you are a bother and people would get along better in life without you, by being a griefer, than you havent researched.

Or you don't care. In which case, you are not arguing a point, you are simply restating what you've already said in the face of differing opinions without learning anything. So why are you wasting your time with us then ;)

Komrade_Kayce

human3rror

now see... i didnt say attack someone just for being them selves did I? I said I support griefers. Sure I get miffed when a botter jumps onto a server with me in Q3. But do I cry about it? No. I pb kick them and get on with my game. I see the funny, yes, it is fun to bot... And on the flip side you gotta wonder why someone is botting in a decade old game.

Look, whats funny to me is not gonna be funny to you. Thats a fact. But ultimately as long as there are not real world effects ("griefing" ebay by breaking searches not cool, raining down purple dildos is cool).

nytestalker

sure... online name - nyte, nytestalker, sometimes The_Glow

And I own a wii.. so kekek yeah.. no console names for me... Giving out my wii code is pointless as im not gonna add all of kotaku.

im on xfire though... nytestalker79. I need more griefers on my ignore list so hit me up.

nytestalker

Actually, I guess that's not true. I do find the rampant misogny in Goreans pretty disgusting.

I do think you're going about it entirely wrong though. You are providing them with what they want. You're acting exactly like they want. You're not going to change anyone's mind. It's futility in its utmost.

@Komrade_Kayce: People tell me lots of things, that doesn't make it true. Otherwise we would've found a 1337 cache of nukes in Iraq.

Señor Vorpal Kickass'o

The Liberation of NEIT! (planetside)

Long story short, someone died (IRL, this bit is not funny at all imo, ppl dieing IRL is srs bznz)

Some of his ingame friends wanted to hold a little memorial for him. Cool, and all, but well...

This group of people decided to bomb the proceedings. As the ceremony was kicking off all these bombers come flying over head and just start killing people en-mass. They were bant, howver, it was from them killing so many people on their own side, and not for disrupting something that was not sanctioned.

I have the video I believe, I may try to get it up on teh tube.

Now some of you are like, omfg thats horrible. But ya know, the people holding the ceremony should have gotten it sanctioned, im sure SOE could have let them go on the test server and just disabled weapons for a short period.

nytestalker

EthanW

1. You just posted on Kotaku. You are a nerd. OH WAIT deal with it.

2. Attacking a corporate get together in second life with flying penises? Funny. You deserve to get your account kicked for breaking rules, but what you did was the same as throwing a pie at the prime minister in real life. Theres some funneh there.

Attacking furries in second life just for being furries? About as funny as attacking gays in second life just for being gays. Or people who like the colour pink for liking the colour pink.

Theres a line that can be drawn between funny to be un-pc, and being a hate filled juvenile asshole.

Komrade_Kayce

KevinHalse

KevinHalse

1. You are willing to post your online username on whatever consoles or games you own, and on any online communities you are a part of.

THEN AND ONLY THEN, will your opinion have weight.

bobeotm

GhostWhoWalks

You either fail to :

1 - Find the funneh in it. Its a game ffs stop going all postal just because someone is goofing around, I hate to image hat these people are like at social events, oh WAIT there nerds. NVM.

or. 2. Your pathetic attempts at griefing go unnoticed due to your childish execution of said attempts.

nytestalker

You win this thread with the real life call to someones boss telling them that they deal in midget/dog porn.

+1 follower, lol

Komrade_Kayce

nytestalker

The problem with griefers, is that they do ruin the experience for others. And in doing so, generate a negative image for the game. Negative publicity spreads much faster and wider than good publicity. As such, the actions of just a few dozen griefers in an online game could ruin the experience for a few hundred, who in turn complain about it and could cost the company a few -thousand- potential customers, in addition to the originally offended customers possibly canceling their game subscription.

Back in the good ol' days of Dreamcast, there was this great little game known as PSO. At first, it was great. Everyone had fun, all the games were open, and people just wanted to play and hang out. Eventually, the game was cracked and people were using a Gameshark to cheat and grief, leading to eventual codes that could totally wipe out a player's character and format their memory card. This lead to many people quitting because they didn't want to risk it, and many others simply playing in locked games so that they wouldn't have to worry about someone just hopping in without warning and getting rid of not only their character data, but their save files from all their other games.

Shortly after the first wave of Gameshark griefers started swarming the servers, the popularity of the game crashed. It's not just that the game was getting old, it's that people were afraid of losing possibly -thousands- of hours of work, across many games they've paid good money to buy and play.

Time is money. Hundreds or thousands of hours of playtime across many games, could be worth more than the actual purchase price of the games themselves. I, personally, had over 2000 hours in PSO, and eventually just stopped playing because the community had died so far, it was impossible to just find another game to play in, without having to deal with a smacktard griefer.

And this kind of thing applies to pretty much every game out there. Sure, on PC it's pretty hard to find a grief that would delete data on the other person's machine, but that doesn't stop them from trying to find a way to ruin possibly hundreds of hours of gameplay.

And this is especially true in more community-style games, like Second Life. A lot of people use it more as a place for conversation. Another type of chat, where they can try to express their creativity in a way other than pure text and cheap emoticons. To have griefers just come by and start disrupting everything that's going on, could have... well, serious consequences. SL has seen a steadily increasing amount of corporate establishment, as well as government implementation. How do you think it reflects on an industry that's trying to convince people that it's not all about idiots, retards and troublemakers, when a few of those very type of people come in and crash what should be a positive experience?

Guess what, griefers? The internet -is- serious business. Don't believe me, then go talk to Google, Microsoft, the MPAA/RIAA, Interpol, China, Afghanistan, the non-Mainstream news media, every musician and actor out there, as well as every last game development company in the world.

I'd suggest you stop and think about your actions, but that hasn't stopped you from griefing even once. I'd suggest you use your ever-so-productive powers and actually try to create an environment, such as an MMO or community game, where griefing is expected and scored upon, but your lack of maturity would prevent such a task from ever seeing the lack of day.

Griefers take their shit far more seriously than any of the people they disrupt. So, everyone who knows an online griefer should make a point to disrupt their real life. Call up their boss and suggest they deal in midget/dog porn, or that they're selling off trade secrets to the competition, or even just plant evidence and call the police on them. Really, it's no different. It's all for the lulz, y'know?

SilverStar95

fuchikoma

Griefers of high level would gather round the entrance to town, and shoot new players as soon as they tried to leave on a quest. The new player gets rezed, runs to the opposite side of town, just to find that the griefer has either run over there to cut him off, or already had friends waiting to kill him on the other side.

These griefers would sit here for hours laughing at how the new players couldn't get out, and verbally harrasing them until they gave up and quit.

Now, I just don't see how you anyone could claim that the new players were "taking it too seriously". They just bought the game, and all they want to do is play it. Unfortunately the griefers could find nothing more entertaining than preventing these people from playing a game they had paid for.

brent_w

Now creation, that takes real intelligence and skill. If more griefers had both, we probably wouldn't have so many griefers. Zing.

kidjesus

Asper: Re, the part where you're arguing against the majority here, as proven by brent, who just said what I said.

As well as everyone else who is telling you its bullying.

It appears it t'wasnt I who missed the mark, m'dear. ;)

Komrade_Kayce

Videos and stories of it are funny, but nobody ever wants to deal with it first hand.

Tetelestia

bobeotm

Señor Vorpal Kickass'o

How is:

Asper: Furries and Goreans should both be griefed. Without end. Ever. Abominations.

really any different than:

Arbitrary KKK Bigot: Queers and Jews should both be griefed. Without end. Ever. Abominations.

?

And by the way, its unfortunate that you would rather insinuate that we are gullible troll victims rather than approach this situation reasonably. Whos the one thats really getting uset here? Its cirtainly not me.

brent_w

Abusing people for homosexuality is not a very good similie, but it is similar. You may not be being a homophobe by attacking an online internet group, but they you are still singling them out and abusing them for their choice to play second life/and or game of their choice.

You take pleasure out of being an internet bully. Okay, thats cool. Just understand that you are not in the in group at all, as evidenced by these comments.

Brent is not getting angry at you. You simply speak a foreign language to the majority. You are the high school jock who would pick on kids for reading books, because it was nerdy. You are the high school brainer who would pick on kids who played video games, because it was a waste of time. Now you are the video game player who picks on... uhm... other people who play video games, because you cant understand the game that they play.

Time may have changed why frustrated people bully, but it didn't change the fact that there are still bullies.

And thats right, you dont understand. You dont get any fun out of anything but trying to ruin what they are doing. Me? I dont understand it either. I have no wish to, I have no idea why people find second life fun.

But Im not about to bust in there and start making fun of them for it.

Komrade_Kayce

It'll be tougher to get of AIDS Patrol in Habbo, though.

TheCheese33

I don't really mind griefers that much. I've just accepted that that is part of participating in an online culture. I can handle someone being an asshole on the internet because it doesn't really significantly affect me at all.

Cathaoir

Damn, if only I had a post count. postcount++;

Señor Vorpal Kickass'o

Krytha

SilverStar95

TheCheese33

I'd say you have a point, though I'd disagree in that slugging someone is clearly directed at that one person and physical violence would "socially" warrant a response more than yelling "hey asshole!" and seeing who turns around.

I don't think I'm defending griefing. At least I'm not trying to. I'm a little surprised how easy it was to recreate a play I've seen acted out time and time again on forum after forum.

Señor Vorpal Kickass'o

WEGGLES90

I just hope I can get him to reconsider how viable his justifications really are.
Worst case scenario, some random stranger on the internet makes fun of me.

Best case scenario, I get under his skin enough that he gives his words a second look. Maybe this time he will come to come the conclusion:
That no mater what sexual orientation, skin color, or belief system the person on the other end of the internet has, no mater how ridiculous and perverse we might find it, none of us has any place to bully those people. Griefing is simply not justifiable.

brent_w

I know a person who takes her flowe