Kojiro

Back on topic (somehow, I missed this one when work was going all to hell today), I agree to some extent with what he's saying ... but, I believe for there to be an emotional response there has to be a narrative framework of some sort. I think the key to excellent game design is making that framework invisible.

In other words, you have it -- but the player feels totally in control and feels as though they are completely driving the story ... that creates the emotional ties. I think it's very, very difficult to do ... but, not impossible.

jayntampa

Because that had me rolling.

DaiMacculate

BANNED

Hows that for an answer.

Witzbold

"Calling you out", if that's what you want to see it as, is quite different because I'm not questioning your integrity by doing so. I'm not calling into question how you perform the activities which earn you money in front of the crowd you're meant to administer.

You can express all the concern you want, I'm not trying to hamper people's opinions... just to point out that:

A) This isn't a democracy, Kotaku is a business. And Witzbold is an employee in that business. It's one thing to question the activities of elected officials in public space... but this is neither, really. This is as much like going into a retail establishment and telling all the other customers that you question the integrity of the guy behind the counter. The idea that it is a public forum is only partly true as it's still owned and operated by Gawker Media. We are guests just as we are in any private establishment... we should not necessarily behave as though this is a public park and we're talking about the governor.

His position does not make him exempt from public criticism... but damn... try applying this kind of behavior to YOUR job. You want anyone to come in their and question your behavior in front of everyone? The debate over whether it's ethical to do so when we're talking about a discussion board or wherever you might work aside... it's kinda crass in either case.

B) Not "calling you out" specifically, but point out that there has been A LOT of this lately. There's a time and place for everything... but every other thread probably isn't it. If I had a nickel for every time someone questioned Witz's judgment in the last 2 months, I'd have a pile of nickels. I appreciate that he goes in, says "no fat jokes" and moves on... why it has to continually turn into a debate on his behavior, whether or not it is ethical to do so, has gotten out of hand.

By all means, discuss ban-worthiness at length in Banhammer threads... but do we really need to be having this discussion here and everywhere anymore?

All of this is stemming from you defending someone that made a fat joke, which has long been a bannable offense long before Witzbold, who only issued a warning. Since the thread didn't devolve into the usual plethora of fat jokes that might have 5 months ago... I can only conclude that the warning may have had the best possible result: deterring others from similar inane commentary.

Yet now even THAT is something folks want to question him on?

Dood is an employee, this is his job, he's quite capable of listening to others in PM and taking criticism...

... but questioning the performance of that job in open forum lacks all tact. Period.

Hate the sin, not the sinner and all that. Debate the problem of bans and banworthy commentary in a ban hammer thread... but, and this is not just you man, bringing his activities up all the time is a bit much.

dv8godd

"The only real reasons, then, to bring it up here in comments is because you feel either:

A) You need the support of the community to make your point relevant. Well, if your opinion is so weak that you need other people to help you make it... probably not worth saying it then.

B) Your voice is not yet respected enough to make the point on your own. And if that's the case, you probably shouldn't try to dictate site policy anyway."

Are you not bringing up your own issues with my post/outlook in the exact same way as I did with Witzbold? If you maintain that as how you felt, why would you not have sent me a private message with you discern for my post? How is "calling me out" any different than me "calling out" Witzbold? because he is paid to review comments? Does his position make him exempt from public criticism, but because I am only a loyal reader, I cannot not express my concern?

@Witzbold: You're absolutely right, which is why I have not made a comment that I can not back up.

The hostility here is through the roof. I have not said something I regret posting. If Brian or anyone else on the Kotaku team wish to ban me for anything I have said thus far, do so. There is something seriously wrong when people take personal offense to a comment about how someone is performing there job. If you elect someone to perform a duty that has the purpose of making your time more enjoyable, would you not speak up if you felt something was doing wrong?

Pa7ronSain7

DaiMacculate

Clearly, I don't like being called a hypocrite. I take my online integrity very seriously. I don't do the "web anonymity lets me get away with shit" thing. I am who I am, so I took that very much to heart.

Apologies if it wasn't intended to come off that crass from you either. Obviously you hit a nerve.

dv8godd

Remember if you dont watch what you say folks will call you out.

Witzbold

Welcome, again, to missing the point. "Blatantly Hypocritical"? How? I never suggested every comment to every person be private. I didn't pop in and tell the Tower it was fucking up in a public forum as though their actions were necessarily ours to debate.

This isn't democracy... this is a private site. Brian and the rest are free to ban me at any time as well.

So fine... don't take my opinion... but I'm sorry: you can jam the "hypocrite" shit straight up your ass.

dv8godd

Thaddeus_McGee

Yeah, I agree. I tend to forget that a lot of people don't play games like I play them, meaning they don't explore every nook and cranny looking for story bits and such. I'm playing through CoD4 right now and I think that game does a really good job of keeping the narrative going while not really taking control away from the player (the assasination and nuclear fallout scenes come to mind). That said, the game does feel like its on rails a lot of the time. In time I think devs will get better and better at balacing the two.

Gray665

OrionTheSmiter

I get excited about cheese burgers......especialy with bacon......mmmmmmmmmmmm.....bbaaaacccooonnn.......

Mr.SithNinja

To sum up. Yes, in a game the story should be there to be actively developed but it also has to be always present. If you could play the whole game without noticing it, then the game failed, it was poorly designed.

Tikey

Maybe a private form of warning would be a lot better. It wouldn't draw attention to unwanted comments, and at the same time it wold let the person know that they are on the edge.
Just a thought... Please dont take these things personally, these conversations and arguments help work out issues.

On a side note @dv8godd: I'm glad your defending someone you trust in. However, its hard to take the opinion of someone who is blatenly hypocritical. What I mean b that is if you believed everything you typed, why did you not send it to me in a private message?

Pa7ronSain7

Hey it worked for sonic.

JamieA

I think maybe a prominently featured ban FAQ would remove ambiguity. Personally I've noticed he bans for pretty obvious things:

- Direct personal insults on those featured in stories - especially if the comment is only that.
- Racist comments, or things that might possibly be construed as racist if you tried really hard to see it that way, including jokes; though he does warn for ignorant use of "Jap" because most people don't see it as a slur.
um... Really those are the big two. I don't know if I could state a rule for the rest of it and not be wrong. I'd imagine he'd nuke you if you were obviously trying to break the board with bad HTML... just a hunch. Maybe
- Don't gloat that someone's about to be banned.

But be respectful as possible, and try to contribute meaningfully to the discussion. I tend to point out negatives about stories, but I've still never been banned, I think because I follow those two simple rules. There are some people who get news coverage I have nothing good to say about, but I'm not just going to post just to attack them. Witz isn't really that hard to get along with, just don't be a jerk.

fuchikoma

If you must offer plot, do it passively, like Bioshock or Doom3's audio journals (though Bioshock is just as guilty of locking you in a little room with not even debris to play with, lowering your gun for you, and talking at length.)

It's not that I don't appreciate a good plot, but I play games to play games, and cutscenes aren't game, whether or not I'm free to pace back and forth during them. Some nights I just want to go "great, another 10 min movie! I'm just going to shut this off and play Galaga because it lets me play uninterrupted!"

fuchikoma

Agreed. Half-Life 2 and its expansions do a great job of telling the story without taking the control out of your hands too much. I'm tired of watching cutscenes and FMV and all that crap. Tell your story without taking control from the player, even if its just letting us look around. Personally I find it makes things much more immersive.

And to the people saying that if you don't force the story on people then they won't pick up on it well I say that's their loss. If you don't pick up the backstory in Half-Life 2 or Bioshock then you are not playing the game correctly. The story should be there for you to uncover yourself. If I wan't to passively watch a story I'll pop in a DVD. If writers expect people to pick up on themes in books without beating them over the head with them then game makers should be able to expect gamers to pick up on things that are implied and or up to the player to actually discover.

Gray665

Damned good commenting has been going on here on the subject at hand though.

If only a whole comments section in a post itself could be nominated for Multitap.

Witzbold

First, everyone was happy as pigs in shit to give Witz the hammer... he was gonna clean up the chaff. "Hit 'em hard, Witz!" was the war call.

Then, everyone got annoyed that he wasn't issuing enough warnings. "That was a little extreme, huh Witz? Maybe you should have just warned him" was the call from the crowd." So Witz mixed his bannings with his warnings.

So then, the crowd cried once more, "why did you ban him? You're power hungry... you're banning everyone now". No one wanted Witz to use the ban.

And now the crowd says "you should stop warning people, that's a sign of your power-hungriness too".

Know what? If you ask me, I think everyone should stop taunting and second guessing the hammer in the comments sections. Try emailing Witz directly if you think his job is so damn easy or he's doing it wrong... or drop a private message in his profile. All this giving him shit in every other post for doing everything we've asked of him is really pissing me (and I imagine Witz as well) off.

Seriously, the point of these sections are to stay on topic and not get derailed in unnecessary bullshit (like this and/or fat jokes)... yet so many seem so keen on having their say over whether or not he's doing a quality job. First, that's not your call. Second, there are better ways to handle your grievances than derail comment sections with "I'm probably gonna get banned for having an opinion, BUT IT NEEDS TO BE SAID" type crap that is the new "in thing". No, it didn't need to be said, and if did, have some goddamn tact and don't harp on the men doing these jobs here in the commentary all the time. They have email addresses listed in the sidebar and messages in their profiles for a reason.

The only real reasons, then, to bring it up here in comments is because you feel either:

A) You need the support of the community to make your point relevant. Well, if your opinion is so weak that you need other people to help you make it... probably not worth saying it then.

B) Your voice is not yet respected enough to make the point on your own. And if that's the case, you probably shouldn't try to dictate site policy anyway.

Just let the man do his job, already. Sheesh.

dv8godd

SorenKier

And again, I'm drifting, but this an amazingly interesting subject.

Tikey

Games have a broader field than other mediums. You can make a game with a classic narrative structure, with a main character, a nemesis and a straightforward development, you can have nothing (like the previous example of tetris), you can have a branching story development and lots of lots of possibilities (many which we still haven't even imagined) which still are tied only to this medium.

@JustThisGuy: It's very interesting what you mention about not having to impose the narrative. I see part of it in Half-Life 2, where everything that has happened to the World in the time Freeman was absent isn't told to you but you have to piece it together by listening what other characters talks, reading news clips in the walls, etc. But this had a disadvantage, that most people overlooked all these details and then complained about the lack of story. I know this isn't exactly what you are talking about but it serves to illustrate my point.
Now, to tie it with what I said at the beginning of this post. Not imposing the narrative could also end up missing the point, the concept the developer was trying to communicate. Limits are needed, and sadly nowadays are part of what games are, but as everything that involves design you have to take advantage of everything, even your limits and take advantage of them. So again as I said earlier, the developer could take advantage of this limits and create different narrative paths in the same game, or even play with the reward system in the narrative form to further emphasize the concept or the point he is trying to communicate to the player.
What I mean is that I see the "not imposed narrative" as a two edged sword. It could spawn great things, but could also go terribly wrong.
I might have missed the point of what you were trying to say but I simply can't picture a game like that and see it working.
I'd love to hear you talk more on the subject.

I'm sorry if I drifted to far, it's late and I haven't slept in the whole night. I just have to say that this is one of the most interesting discussions I've seen in this site.

Tikey

NINgod

StartRunning

Bioshock just had heavy marketing and casual friendliness to it, which a lot of other games lack. I can understand aiming the bar too high would alienate a lot of the traditional gamer market, so maybe it just shows how the bar for "good narrative" in video games is still relatively low compared to other media.

Sorry if I mostly said what you already said. :)

Xiedo

dhelor

Witzbold

I understand that completely runs contrary to what I said earlier about coming up with new standards of criteria specific to gaming, but I think your analogy is rather apt. Games have an advantage in that is allows a much larger canvas than a picture or a song; instead of capturing a single moment, it can span an entire narrative structure without imposing a rigid, forced narrative path.

JustThisGuy

Gouki4u

And I think Witz would probably swing the hammer if I called Gore a "fatty", whether or not it came after some insightful piece of blather. ;)

Z-Word

Man, can we please stop jizzing over Bioshock? The narrative was remarkable for a video game, but trite, unengaging and often downright jejune in comparison to other narrative forms. In fact, if it was translated on to the big screen, it would be just like a Verbinski flick: great production values, great atmosphere, but absolutely zero content with pretentious aspirations to greatness (that is, it's screaming "I AM BIG AND IMPORTANT AND HAVE DEEP MESSAGE" without realizing it has neither subtlety nor content). Ultimately, the game was quiche: it looks substantive on the outside, but ultimately it's only filled with hot air.

The problem with Bioshock is that it adheres too closely to narrative devices that have been fully explored in much greater detail (and often to better effect) in other narrative forms. Bloody hell, it exploited narrative devices that were better done in its predecessor SS2--and even back in the heady days of '99 and LGS, the same criticisms would have applied.

Bioshock wants to be a movie, but doesn't take advantage of the fact that it is a game first and foremost. I'm not saying that it either fails as a game or that there's no room in the VG market for cinematic experiences; however, Bioshock is certainly neither the first nor the definitive shot fired in exploring the full potential of games as narrative devices.

JustThisGuy

pikachumariachi

Re: your job, everyone who knows Kotaku knows you've been a great contributor to this site and that it was a good call by the overlords at Kotaku Tower to draft you. I'd just hate to see this place become bland and boring because people got scared to be a little cheeky. You said Bash tried to "terrify" us with that pic (why would it be terrifying? It's a photo of a very harmless-looking man with a kind face), I said he might get excited about cheeseburgers (which it turns out is true, according to the on-set reports.) Same diff, no?

Of course I did forget it was Banhammer Monday today. Tread lightly, me hearties!

Z-Word

By forcing the participant to craft their own narrative, SotC is allowing the gamer to bring their own set of contextual, experiential values into the system, engaging them in a way that a novel or a movie cannot. It is very close to being the first post-modern victory, completely inverting the traditional modernist model of authorial intent as the end-all, be-all; the player is the author, and the narrative only means what the player wants it to mean.

All that said, the neat thing about SotC is that it sets up the contextual framework in a way that no other medium can. However, I'm not yet entirely convinced that it also wasn't a lone shot in the dark; that is, I'm not sure if the experience can be replicated without seeming either trite or derivative. But gaming is still young and full of potential--we'll see what happens.

Finally: man, Tetris. The ur-text of the modern contextless null-narrative device. That game inspired a lot of emotions in me: panic, frustration, anger, cathartic release. I think every game dev should ask themselves one simple question during the concept phase: how can my game be like Tetris?

JustThisGuy

@mind in rewind: About Bioshock, yeah, that was my first thought too.

Camann

I think for video games to mature, we need to redefine what it means to "win" and "lose", and we also need to bring in more human interaction, because that is at the core of most emotionally moving works of art. I think games have an advantage in that you are spending hours upon hours with a character, but few games seem to utilize this connection to provoke an emotional response from the player.

ianp622

His point is simple, I think Z-Word nailed it perfectly, movie writers basically know how to write for the screen in a non-interactive fashion where the plot needs to unfold on 120 minutes or less. Gaming needs writers who understand that at best gaming is a collection of interactive mini-scripts (Where the story and the action are independent of each other but are interwined) that vary depending on game progress... that collection of mini-scripts will need to be coherent and make good use of the interactivity to enhance the story, not to convey it.

I take Grim fandango as an example, I love the story, love the characters and love the game, but there was a very marked divorce between the gameplay mechanics and the story, it still inspired a very strong emotional response, be it either because of the maddening puzzles or the actual cutscenes.

zoesch

I'd like to believe that Witz wouldn't have made a fuss about it if your comment read something like:

"Verbinski does have one good point tho (just to steer this back on topic), that this whole notion of videogames needing Hollywood screenwriting talent is misguided. Videogames need *good* writers, but they need writers that understand the vast differences between the narrative structure of games and films. Getting some Hollywood hired gun to write your game could actually do more harm than good. [Also, he's a goddamn fatty who blows through cheezburgers like an enthusiastic hooker with a good dental plan goes through johns]"

But then again, I'm also not the penguin. So who am I to say?

JustThisGuy

"Verbinski does have one good point tho (just to steer this back on topic), that this whole notion of videogames needing Hollywood screenwriting talent is misguided. Videogames need *good* writers, but they need writers that understand the vast differences between the narrative structure of games and films. Getting some Hollywood hired gun to write your game could actually do more harm than good."

Since yeah not only is it the quality of the writer, but also totally the quality of how much that writer understands the mindset of gamers and the gaming industry in general.

Kinda like instances where you see a team of developers trying to turn a hit novel into a video game and they do poorly at it since its difficult for them to find a way to convey the "novel" into a game itself without turning the game into a "novel" if you know what I mean. Or screwing something else up by trying too hard.

A good example of the opposite is all the video game to movie flops we have had over the years. Plus the other way around once again where all the movie to game spinoffs are not taken too seriously either.

But yeah being a good writer is one thing, but understanding the medium that you are writing for is another.

---

Btw on topic about the comments, basically Im paid to do a job so Im doing it. To be short and to the point.

Witzbold

Verbinski's remarks are exciting because he's treating games as a completely separate medium from movies--they share certain superficial similarities but still have irreconcilable differences. Games have not matured. For them to really mature, they have to define their own distinct standards of criteria that fall outside the current narrative paradigms.

All that said, I think Shadow of the Colossus is a fine stab at this sort of null-narrative--a historical analogue to Don Quixote, if you will--precisely because it offers an experience that can't be replicated in any other medium. SotC would make a horrible movie and a boring-ass book. And that's how game developers should look at it: i.e., by asking themselves, "How can we create an experience on this medium that either cannot be replicated or is inferior on another medium?"

JustThisGuy

I love that Kotaku doesn't put up with random nonsense, that's why I've been a daily reader and periodic commenter and tipster here for a year and a half. But I also love that Kotaku attracts fun, interesting people who are passionate about games yet don't take themselves too seriously. If you swing the banhammer too hard, it only serves to have a chilling effect on your community. "Should I say this game sucked, or will I get banned?" "Should I say that previous commenter is out to lunch with his opinion, or will I get banned?" "Should I say Gore Verbinski looks like a Baldwin brother, or will I get banned?"

My comment wasn't meant as a dig at obese people anymore than Bash calling Verbinski clueless was meant as a dig against the mentally infirm. We're all friends here, remember?

Verbinski does have one good point tho (just to steer this back on topic), that this whole notion of videogames needing Hollywood screenwriting talent is misguided. Videogames need *good* writers, but they need writers that understand the vast differences between the narrative structure of games and films. Getting some Hollywood hired gun to write your game could actually do more harm than good.

Z-Word

Mujah

Witzbold

@yjaved1: Actually that is a great idea! No idea if there is a game really like that but it would be fun to see one.

Zenax

yjaved1

_Ted_

Witzbold

Atheist Jew

You just brought up the memories that my atari (forgot the model) still works but the joypads are broken. D:

Witzbold

Also I agree the scene just doesn't seem as serious when you have that much control sometimes.

yjaved1

Oh, and Bioshock, anyone?

mind in rewind

Witzbold

I really think that a copy of Mass Effect or FF7 would more then prove this dude wrong.

_Ted_

Damn Right, he needs to play Shadow of the Colossus.
Im writing a paper about it right now ( I should get back to it). I would love to see a Shadow of the Colossus Movie. One of the few games to get a tear from me...you know the part.

Beyene

schizorogue

Mujah

Power pad.

CaptLtrl

I think I just dated myself. I now officially feel horribly old.

JustThisGuy

Heres a link with some of the games that was released on it.

I think the one you are thinking about was "Dance Aerobics"

[www.nintendowiifanboy.com]

This link might / might not work correctly. :x I had a few probs with it and had to search through the archives to get it again.

Witzbold

If I had to write a one-sentence review of that movie, which began with the words "'Pirates of the Caribbean 3 is'", I would make that sentence end "what happens when people write movies using Microsoft Excel".

I can see it clear as day in my head: the screenwriter types "THE END" in cell BT-46, seeing "#REF!" in BT-47, and going "Not again!"

Then he scrolls up the column, deleting random words until he sees "#(o^^)b!", and he clicks "save" (and then forgets that he can't save while a cell with something written in it is highlighted, so he clicks onto a blank cell and then saves).

If Gore Verbinski is talking about games being better with no (or minimal) narrative, then maybe that finally means that he realized all anyone ever wanted to see, anyway, was Johnny Depp acting like a lovable coke-fiend. With a character that miraculously interesting (more interesting than Super Mario, at any rate), you don't actually need narrative.

If Sonic the Hedgehog is the most "interesting" character we have in videogames, that's a tiny bit sad. If Gore thinks he can beat Sonic, I'd tell him to go for it. As-is, it sounds like he could either be talking about Out of This World (minus the text in the intro) or Tetris. Though since Steven Spielberg is making a game that's like Tetris with personality, I doubt Gore would be making a puzzle game.

Or:

. . . I hope it's Gears of War 3!

108

[gillen.cream.org]

It's a very well written article on a level in Thief 3 (not the actual name of the game, but the third in the series) about what the author believes to be the scariest level ever in gaming, and how its brilliance is in its lack of a narrative. The story of the level isn't spelled out to the gamer, but instead is uncovered by visual and auditory clues strewn all over the area. While I haven't actually played the game, the author of the article makes a convincing argument for how a story can be told through realistic discovery and connections drawn in your own head, as opposed to the typical scripted, in-your-face narrative of most games.

silvo72

Hmm, you think? I dunno, maybe it is just me but while this is fun and all I don't really like to be in control of my character when important stuff is happening, seems like it takes away from the emotional impact some. If someone was crying over their father's dead body making a vow to kill the killer and I was hopping up and down in front of them (which I have a bad habit of doing as I play through games that allow you to jump in the first play) I would feel the scene was not as serious... Thats just me though.

Zenax

yjaved1

'Cause Gears of War had some narrative. Quite a bit of narrative. If anybody missed it, that's why Marcus ocassionally had to take a breather and walk very slowly... the narrative held him down.

Xiedo

The Endless Ocean I do believe on the PS in Japan cant remember who made it but there also was a similar type of game done, in regards to underwater exploration.

Witzbold

I do like it when games allow for that, it really makes it far more immersive than standard cutscenes.

Witzbold

yjaved1

Zenax

Strangelove

Quilt

Id say also that even before we can "redefine" gaming, the general public needs to know exactly what gaming is.

The proof that they still dont know is all the alarmist gaming related stories going around spreading fear and hate as usual. :/

Witzbold

"No one watches Football for the stories of drama"

That's all I watch it for. :)

Groodle

symphony_of_the_night

okay

schizorogue

Well, I think the mainstream appeal of Gears is that it's good escapism and highly competetive. No one watches Football for the stories of drama and lust-- that's why they watch Football movies.

Same with Halo or Counter-strike: It's all about the competition and beating the crap out of your friends. With the emergence of Live/PSN, Games seem to fall into two major categories: Single-Player Interactive Movies and Online Competition. And I think that's the direct result of the nature of games. That's what truly sets games apart from movies. The level of interactivity and connections between players leaves experiences as broadly different as Shadow of the Colossus, Counter-Strike, WoW, flOw, and Passage. CoD4 is really two games in one: the cinematic single player experience, and the heated, unrealistic multiplayer.

I think the term "Game" is misleading nowadays, but at the same time, to change it to something more applicable, like "interactive experience" is just absurdly presumptuous. The key, I think, lies in redefining the term "Video Game". It has been, at least for the hardcore gamers. But educating the masses on Gaming's maturation will be more difficult and will take some time.

tzaketh

@schizorogue: If I thought it was amusing I wouldnt have warned him now would I?

Witzbold

Yeah I mean... He wasn't making fun of gay people, black people, Latinos, or hicks.

Besides, overweight people are pretty much the last group we can discriminate against. Don't take that away from us Witzy.

PS: I'm honestly not even sure if I'm serious or being sarcastic. I'll get back to you on that.

PPS: Also... I may have sorta laughed at the cheeseburger comment, so... I can't really talk.

2NinjasTapedTogether

ShaggE

@eggfou: I thought the same thing! Puzzles don't need new narratives. However... they also don't really need a new genre. Since they... ARE an old genre. Very old. We're talking... like... caveman old.

2NinjasTapedTogether

Granted, games like Tetris don't need stories, but not many games can really pull that off...

bobtheduck

About zero narrative, it could be interesting if you willingly work it like that in mind, as the center of the concept or project, it could spawn something quite different form the zero narrative games that we know nowadays.

Tikey

drewskisama

P.S. I understand the irony that trying to get an emotional response from a Gears type game would ruin the mainstream appeal of the game.

ggodo

c'mon, witz, you know you cracked a smile when you read the post, dont blame dude for thinking that when Ashcraft used a pic like that.

besides its the "witty" comments that make people come here, "witty before flaming" is the way to go!!!!

schizorogue

Zerozaki Ishiki

As stated before, you gotta start somewhere to prevent further slipping down the slope if you know what I mean.

Witzbold

@drewskisama: You gotta start somewhere.

Sides Id like to keep the comments section a cut above "other" places that allow shit to run rampant.

Witzbold

remanance

Witz seems to mete out banning pretty well: at the very least, I know I can read articles here without being subjected to people screaming "F1RS7!" all day or flaming random people for their opinions.

I dunno though, in this case, I laughed my ASS off at the Cheeseburgers post. Considering the title of the article begins with "Giant Gore Face", I'd say it was ENTIRELY on-topic.

As for this idea, I'm going to have to disagree. Mass Effect left a lot of the backstory up for grabs without imposing narrative, though I'd say the best example of a lack of narrative so far would be Oblivion. Everything in that game (aside from the main quest line, which was a joke anyway) was for you to discover on your own.

Gears had plenty of Narrative. It was just shitty narrative. I strongly disagree with Bash here.

tzaketh

drewskisama

eggfou

Dude of the Millenium

yjaved1

ggodo

Would be cool if he actually did then wrote up a response after.

Witzbold

I prefer games with minimal story. RPGs are my favourite genre.
You could see how this leads to frustration, especially with games like Final Fantasy X that's just one big dialog cutscene that occasionally lets you think that it'll actually leave you alone for more than 10 seconds without breaking out into another stupid dialog cut scene where adolescent uninteresting characters babble on about totally inane boring shit. And they're unskippable for extra annoyance!

Feigr

Atheist Jew

Ive banned folks before for making unecessary jokes about folks weight.

[www.bad-good.org] <-- Upper right corner is the Baldwin brother Im talking about. Not sure if thats Stephen Baldwin. Small image though. Couldnt find the same pic in a larger size.

Witzbold

Scrapple

Dauragon C. Mikado

Witzbold

Libo

Maybe Im the only one who has noticed, but Witzbold... ever since you've been elected to hold the ban hammer, you've seem to become a little power hungry. Please don't be that substitute teacher in grade school that feels they have over emphasize their power in order to maintain control.

Pa7ronSain7

ShaggE

Since that game can hit you pretty hard.

Witzbold

symphony_of_the_night

He apparently has not seen RPG's in the last 15 years. Lost Odyssey's emotional story written by Japanese novelist, Kiyoshi Shigematsu, is perhaps the best novel adapted written for a game I've seen yet.

TC

Weird, I remember feeling that at a certain point in FFV just as 1 example. I hate people that talk about games who have probably played like 3 games total in their life, not including solitaire.

Zenax

Aethyr

WHOA!

Kprimed

But, I also thought Gears had great story telling elements. It's about time the player takes some responsibility relating to the story.

Pa7ronSain7

Maldron

Same goes for anyone else who thinks they are being "witty".

---

He kinda reminds me of one of the baldwin brothers. You know the not as popular one.

Zero narrative so is GoW like Ashcraft said. Which is a bad thing. :x

Witzbold

Moonshadow101

I think one day someone will figure out how to tell a story via cutscenes without removing the ability to control them from the player. Right now, no matter where you go, you end in 2 area, too much gameplay makes too much work and allows the player to go out of bounds of the story, not good for a narrative based game. The ability to create a true, full world is far beyond the time and effort and technology being put into games right now.

The other area is that there are too many cutscnes. Sure, you can have the player spend the whole mission tracking down some kind of AA gun, but what's the fun if as soon as you kill all the enemies around it, a cutscene begins, and your character blows everything up with you just watching. Not nearly as much fun as a well thought out gameplay segment. But then you have to figure everything out.

The first game to do this will launch a franchise like Halo. Speaking of Halo, I felt it pulled off certain moments well, better than most games, but it doesn't quite hit the spot for perfection, but it is about halfway there. Still it's headed in the right direction in the same sense that game AI is also headed in the right direction.

Codexx

You never hear those "lunch horror stories" from the PotC sets? Once, they brought in Sonic...he didn't even say "CUT" before he ate them all...I heard like 6 people needed therapy after that.

Amazon_Chris

silkylove

Kid_Kitten

Z-Word

VishusBurn