vosslerbasch

vosslerbasch

Zeouterlimits

brandonf

I think we can safely say that Japanese gamers love JRPGs. I know I do!

RealmRPGer

chogaijin

Fonic

gamadaya

Kyokai

Murmaider

That being said... Wow, F/S N is on there...

Ekental

Aiwokote

You can't blame the forerunner of a genre for what his successors did to it. He has never had fully control over an FF property since VI,and FFVI was great! FFVII did well with less of his control, but not the games after, though I did enjoy FFIX for nostalgic reasons (and Sakaguchi had participation in that).

Anything after FFX had completely no more involvement from him, considering he was sacked from Squenix at this time. If you hate the new ones that thrive on spin-offs and leather pants, it isn't Sakaguchi's fault.

Lost Odyssey finally advances one of the key components, if not the CORE component of all JRPGs, which is their story. But you refuse to even give it the chance for unfounded bias. Exactly who is the one hindering creative progress here?

Byakko

thedanielrecord

JRPGs tend to repeat a lot more elements than necessary, but I don't think they do so on a notably higher basis than other genres. It's like complaining, "Man, there's another girl in a tube top and short shorts at the starting line in my street racing game!" or "Ho noes, another FPS that features space marines (a convention I'm far more sick of than any single JRPG regurgitation)." For every Western game that stands out positively in its genre, there's a JRPG that does the same. It's just that people are much better at remembering, in aggregate, all the times they were bored by something similar. When we play something new, it's more of a unique experience; when we see something totally trite, it just builds into the growing katamari of discontent that we roll through our gaming landscape, and the larger, more "shared" nature of the lame stuff makes it easier to point to and say, "Look there! All that stuff is same 'ol, same 'ol!"

Meanwhile, the cool JRPGs are standing by the punch bowl, waiting to be asked to dance.

tenken

Ashton

Cpryd001

gamadaya

CaptLtrl

They seem to like playing the same goddamn game over and over and over. With the exception of Okami and maybe a couple games I'm not familiar with, they are all... the same.

Whatever. To paraphrase the words of a great man, I don't play JRPGs and they can suck as much as they like as long as they stay far away from me. Persona 3 is the only exception.

etho

OT79

Have you tried Lost Odyssey? You would be pleasantly surprised ^___^ At last, no more teen-virgins! Makes so much difference...

Byakko

goldwings

JouninGarrett

gamadaya

surft

fuchikoma

Golem29

mullinsmcd

Ultima IV
Ultima Online
Bards Tale (original)
Wing Commander III
Grand Tourismo
Battlefield 1942
Resident Evil

Man, I know i'm forgetting some great games...
Star Wars: KotOR
Grim Fandango
Civilization IV

Tarmac

rob2112

Etrian Odyssey however, is stinky. But then again I never did get into the Wizardry games.

Madeira

Gray665

SwimOdin

ST19AG_WGreymon

Amnesiac85

ShinjiKinomoto

DaiMacculate

DaiMacculate

okenny :)

D:

Hazzy

Banpresto was absorbed into Bandai-Namco and they usually don't allow others to translate their games, so unless Namco-Bandai brings it, (which is unlikely) we wont be seeing Ar Tonelico 2. ITs also the reason that its quite unlikely that we'll see the PS2 Super Robot Taisen OG games despite the GBA ones doing well.

I am truly impressed by the second list. It shows how truly alike people are *wipes tear off cheek*.

Seiryuu

scarshapedstar

Also im not surprised that Jrpgs dominate these list.

Sinharvest

<3 <3 <3

creid

Spiffyness

WolfGod

symphony_of_the_night

Shocked to see Lost Odyssey on either lists. Okami almost as much.

Demaar

Exor

It's a real pity, too, because MH has the best combat system of any action game out there. Too bad it takes a few hours before you start to understand it. Personally, the only reason I slogged through the first few hours of gameplay was because the animations were so well done. I guess most people would also need a friend constantly reassuring them that this really was the best game ever.

celery

200+ Hours on Monster Hunter Portable 1.
200+ Hours and still going on Monster Hunter Portable 2.
440+ Hours and still going on Monster Hunter Freedom 2.
Spent $370 including shipping for Monster Hunter 2nd G PSP Hunter's Pack pre-order from Play-Asia.

Probably besides the Street Fighter series this is the series I spend the most time on in my life-time, and I'm still having hella fun and not even tired of playing it (Heck, spent $370 for another PSP when I don't even need it; just because I know I'll get my money back from playing the game so damn much)

But reading some posts seems like nobody besides Japan cares about Monster Hunter... Heck, your loss =P

Dir_en_grey

PLEASE STOP COMPARING MONSTER HUNTER TO PSO. THE ONLY THINGS THEY SHARE IN COMMON ARE FOUR PLAYERS AND ONLINE.

Monster Hunter is not an RPG. Monster Hunter is not a bad game because it takes a couple hours to learn to play it. Monster Hunter is not an instant gratification game.

Monster Hunter IS the first game that actually takes skill to play to be made in years. Monster Hunter is a graphical showpiece, both on the PS2 and the PSP (God of War is the only PSP game that comes close, and perhaps FFVII:CC, which is sad considering MHF preceded both those games by two years). Monster Hunter is a game that can easily be played alone, and is satisfying to play that way, but gets much better with more people. However, unlike PSO, it's definitely not a requirement.

Please learn your subject matter before you bash a game you never heard of before.

Revenge_of_Nekojin

Benjo

mind in rewind

Guess I'll just spend the money on a DC and start playing PSO on private servers.

TrekVogel

Zastai

Pinhead

Any variety actually. Jeez.

Yaeg

I already know I can barely trust a soul that an RPG has a good story. There's too much room for opinion on that. Better to find an RPG that at least plays well, story being a bonus.

I'm sure it's the reason I've gravitated closer to all other genres. You see it, you like it. No need to be informed of a story, really.

Xiedo

Gunloc

Muisee

Jinto

Sniper_Zegai

BenignMuffin

Grey_Fox

Needed to add, I also play WoW for the PvP quite a bit. Though not VERY competitive, but I do like to look for fights while playing casually.

Byakko

Please use the Shift key. I like your post, but it's really hard to read...

Anyway, with the comparison to FPSes. I can't agree that you don't work hard in FPSes, or that there are no rewards. The rewards of displaying superior skill and agility over another player are more competitive and aggressive than what you get in JRPGs, but nonetheless, that is what the gamers of the FPS genre look out for, and why FPS appeals to them.

If anything, you fight against a constantly evolving, intelligent, and unpredictable enemy in (multiplayer) FPS games. The greatest enemy that no game in any genre can ever emulate - another human being.

You sometimes get a total douchebag, or a total newbie, but there's nothing quite as visceral or as satisfying as defeating another skilled player in battle.

As a person who plays both genres, I can say that the experiences you get from either just aren't comparable. They appeal to different natures, and to different demographics. You sometimes get players like me that shifts into different gears for different games, but most players just don't.

I play a JRPG to escape and to be drawn in - I expect the story to captivate me, to make me want to play it to the bitter end. However, you know you can win, no matter how hard an enemy you know the designers must have made it so it's possible.

I play an FPS to win on my own - You know you can win in a JRPGs, not so much in multiplayer FPSes. This is where I can truly test myself as a gamer, against other gamers, and that's just an experience you don't get in a JRPG (but not to its detriment because it doesn't need it).

Byakko

Zen Grenadier

Arboris

comedy

BornToFlail

Ah yeah, I could only remember 4 core stories, so I didn't bother listing them.

Anyway, that's the truth. There's no such thing as a fully original story. Only a fully original take on a story.

In games, unfortunately, that's never been a complete requisite >_>

Stories in games depend more on the atmosphere and presentation anyway. I mean God of War is Greek-cliche all over, but I found it great because they did it so well cinematically!

@tenken:

I consider LO to be revolutionary in just not having their main characters not being virgins. You think it doesn't matter, but it does! Almost more than they being immortal!

As for stories about conflict in JRPGs, I agree. It's a limitation that just won't disappear, but the games need it and the makers can't be blamed. The worse is when they completely don't make sense - I still remember my disbelief when I get introduced to Tidus, the Bliztball star more in common with David Beckham, and then suddenly he whips out a bloody sword from his pants in the first battle >_>

I skipped some exposition there, but seriously, wth...

I think you'd enjoy LO, as well as Persona 3. They're worlds-apart, but they get the 'story' bit about JRPGs better than any FF or Dragon Quest in years.

Byakko

I love that game so much maybe even more than FF7.

jsin007

The fact that this game is ad-hoc only didn't help it's sales in the US. And many people don't know that you could actually setup so that you can actually connect to people through internet(through a hack). I have friends that i play with online in HK and it is a blast to play with others instead of playing alone.

ejw1224

@Byakko: Ah, but isn't that just being complacent? Sure, stories may have the same basic parts in just about every form, but that doesn't mean that they all have to be alike on a superficial level as well. Star Wars and The Odyssey both characterize the traditional hero's journey format, but are they similar in any way beyond that?

Stormrider

emoldy

ffmusicdj

If there were shitty cliche in JRPg's and those cliche were used in Zelda then Zelda is filled with Shitty cliches. If you don't notice it, it doesn't mean they are not there, it doesn't mean they are not as shitty as they were in JRPG's

My best suggestion is if this shit bothers you so much then don't play it, that simple. Some people enjoy it.

It's like Soap Operas, you know someone watches those cliche driven dramas in the afternoon, everyday.

ffmusicdj

UmeShoryu

How many times have I cracked open the booklet to my latest JRPG only to be greeted by scintillating character descriptions like "He is a young man with a strong sense of justice"? Argh; if I see that one again, it'll be too soon. And so often, that "strong sense of justice" basically just equals some kid spouting his mouth off and getting shown how he was wrong, then wising up (if we're lucky - if we're not so lucky, he'll coast through the story on the irritating wave of moronic idealism). Games with this sort of story and cast feel, repeated so often, is what really gives rise to the valid complaints about the stagnation of the Japanese RPG, as a genre.

Innovation is out there, definitely - I haven't gotten my hands on Persona 3 or Lost Odyssey yet, but I'm eager to play both. But I think it's also worth considering that "innovation" doesn't always make something better. In theory, things get recycled because they work, and in theory, a unique take on old standbys can generate great amounts of fun (like, say, Skies of Arcadia). The problem is when the recycling is wholesale, and there's no interesting take on these seen-before tropes. Also, there's the added difficulty of having to have a story that works well with the core gameplay, which means that we get a lot of stories about people who fight or are otherwise embroiled in conflict. That's why I tend to like "outtake" scenes - stuff like the Grandia series' meal scenes - that give the characters the chance to show their personalities in non-combative scenarios. But I feel like the majority of players equates that with "SLOOOOOOOW," and so we don't see it.

I kind of lament the apparent triumph of the sleek, belt/zipper-clad Kingdom Hearts stylistic sense and how the characters in games so styled feel lacking in the kind of homespun depth I appreciate, but...that's another long post, for another time.

tenken

In other words, there is nothing new under the sun, only how it's written.

PixelRambo

I love me some good JRPGs now and then, but it's also a flawed genre in many ways that very often treads the same tired foot steps. Best recent example of a bad storytelling in a JRPG would be Blue Dragon.

Not all that is Japanese is gold, just as not all western stuff is shit. In fact, both have their ups and downs.

PixelRambo

rhugghed

Cenobia

Bam345

Witzbold

Bam345

hoeney

Pombar

The new generation of social gamers in Japan are not reflected in this poll but in software sales numbers.

Velops

Because as any literature student can tell you, all stories are basically the same.

Break them down into their components - the protagonist, the antagonists, the conflic, and the resolution.

You get cliches, you get tropes, because it makes the entire spiel easier to sell. It's one thing when you're making a film, writing a book, or even in the process of painting. It's quite another when you're making a game.

JRPGs have it tough. They're suppose to be 'story-driven', but you have to entertain people interactively. And you have to sell. So despite the creators' original intentions, they have to temper any artistic flair with considerations on the commercial viability of the game.

It's the same for almost all games, but JRPGs are the one where you discuss story implications far more than combat and skill balance.

They just don't have the same freedom. Film-makers can still luck out because sponsors can spot how the 'indie' flavour of a movie would sell. Games; not so much, and they don't have a secondary distribution market like DVDs, or cable, for companies/sponsors to recoup losses.

Games which have that original story, or that original presentation, that make it must have the support of all the executives and departments involved.

Shadow of the Colossus wouldn't have hit the mainstream if not for Sony's enthusiastic and aggressive marketing and support for it. Ditto for Microsoft's campaign for Lost Odyssey.

On the other hand, you have Okami, and Psychonauts; great games that couldn't hit the mainstream or break-even due to mishandled or non-existent marketing.

In light of that, I can see how JRPGs would stagnate in the story department. Case in point, the franchise that could truly shake up the JRPG world in a revolutionary way (FFVII-scale at least) would have to come from Squenix. Whatever they release under their Final Fantasy brand is guaranteed financial (though not necessarily critical) success on the power of their brand-name and fanbase alone.

Yet, the reason they even REACHED this stage was because they relied on these same cliches and tropes. And unfortunately to see their bottomline, they're going to keep producing games in the line of Kingdom Hearts, with the now synonymous 'pretty-boy-leather' aesthetic for years. They tried to change with FFXII, but it 'bombed' compared to the appeal FFX before it achieved (as well as the previous FFs before it).

There's no incentive for them to change, unless there's a great shift in the consumer base themselves, and unfortunately I don't really see it happening.

Byakko

Now, to offset how ... Wussy ... Reading that list of games made me feel, i'm going to go watch 300.

JamesR87

ffmusicdj

108

Danin

Oh, but I forget. In America, if you can't be rewarded within 10 seconds of starting the game, it's 'too hard' or 'has bad controls' or 'boring'. Immediate gratification, the way of the future.

Revenge_of_Nekojin

Stormrider

cheez

Nice to see Persona 3 get some love as well.

PooPooKaKaBumBum

Stormrider

"Feed you head!"

Sorry, just had to say it XD

Ah, Microsoft and your ability to make unrelated things work in your tv ads...

I don't think the 'true logic' argument works. For example, I can easily point out why Aerith dies from a single sword stab and can't be revived by Phoenix Down when other times she can be slashed, chomped on, burned, drowned etc. by monsters and be brought back from limbo from said method.

If anything, it has been widely shown and said, that the Japanese tend to suffer from motion sickness. A LOT. RE4 has some problems making the shooting system work so that the players won't get queasy. Hence the over-shoulder camera.

Byakko

And Tales of the Abyss must've been more well-received in Japan than I knew. It's a PS2 personal favorite of mine (outdone only by Suikoden III), but the U.S. response was lukewarm at best - though it was released in the crossfire of so many larger titles that targeted the same player base that I wondered what the heck Namco-Bandai was thinking. Also, Xenogears. It's taken its fair beating over the years for things like...oh...Disc 2, but it's still one of my big RPG favorites. If nothing else, it got me thinking about expansion of scope in a game narrative.

A shock to mine own heart, as well it should,
to view lists from Japan thus full of good~

tenken

Sugarbloodsuckers

etchasketchist

Use your head.

NKato

Because it says 2007, and you're thinking about Korea, not Japan.

@bangbangblah:

MGS was never big in Japan. Ever. Sort of like how Castlevania isn't as big in Japan as elsewhere as well.

Byakko

JonC

bangbangblah

ffmusicdj

4 was terrible. You sail 5 feet, battle. 3 feet later, battle. And so on. Game was short. It had a limited world map, and I left feeling cheated. I was made to wait 3 years since the previous installment, and what I got was about essentially half a game.

5 was great, but I couldn't help but feel that it was not a backed by a AAA size budget. Fun game, but the graphics were underwhelming and the colors seemed faded.

I do hope they return to the lush 2D style, or go with the cell-shaded style of DQVIII.

Lixie

ffmusicdj

Chris3000

Krellie

I'm also proud of Lost Odyssey. Granted I don't have a 360 yet and I never played it, but it's guaranteed to be the first game I get when I do get one.

Saint Anima

Sieg_15

Deltakiral

CenatorC

You realize it's an 'online' poll.

Remeber that other Kotaku article about online gaming? It's not representative of how Japanese people feel about the internet per se, but I think it shows a certain less fixation with the net than the rest of the world. Hence, those few who actually bother to go on the net and vote on a poll for gaming are those minority, whom I feel are a little more open-minded on what games they would play.

Heck, not even WoW could make headway into Japan!

Anyway, back to the poll. A population of about 60K gamers in Japan had at least bought and played LO. I think that given there really aren't that many games that appeal to the Japan market on the 360 (and the PS3 as well. Everything's Wii...), the consoles would have been re-sold, lent out, and prolly chucked.

I think it's entirely possible that throughout these entire months, the 360 and LO has been circulated through Japan's gaming circle (at discounted re-sell prices).

I admit, I'm not knowledgeable about the second-hand gaming market in Japan. But I do know that they have a very healthy second-hand books market, and I can see that mentality and attitude extending to games.

I'm still as surprised that LO managed to get into the list at all, but it's heartening.

Also surprised but happy that Okami gets recognized for the gem that it is. Being re-released on the Wii is going to be the best thing for it to have another crack at gamers!

Byakko

[www.next-gen.biz]

Xiedo

UmeShoryu

But LO's presence on the list makes me smile, because I love that game, and I'm glad Japan embraced it, even if it's only in a tiny way.

Archaotic

Also, why shouldn't Okami be on the list? It's generally viewed to be a great game. What do you think it should be replaced with?

Saint Anima

onomeister

jive238

Then came Suikoden IV and threw the series to the ground, spit on it, step all over and made you sail around the spit it created that made an ocean. For me Suikoden IV was the worse in the series, horrible integration of ocean travel, story was ok, but could be better.

Then Suikoden V ressurected my love for the series, I personaly put it as my favorite (yes even ahead of Suikoden II in my list). I hope they do make Suikoden VI and continue this path, maybe make a blend of good aspects from 3 (the story branching) with the great implementation from Suikoden V (plus more improvements in various aspects.

daknight

Archaotic

zztopp

For example, looking for good story in FPS games is like looking for a hooker without herpes. You're going to find it eventually (Bioshock), but not after wading through so much disgusting shit your soul is crying out in pain just from the very thought of it.

Archaotic

jBat17

Some are, most aren't.

Same as any other genre.

As with everything else, most of the time they are laughable cliches built on the same premise over and over again.

Lackshmana

Garo

Best game ever... It used to be Chronotrigger, now it might be Shadow of Colossus...

Game spent most time playing. Street Fighter 2

floppylobster

Aflack: Likes slushies

Tertiee

Saint Anima

That game is fantastic, though it has a huge learning curve and requires a major time investment.

大漢中

zdude255

Suikoden 4 and 5 were just attempts to rehash Suikoden 1 and 2 respectively.

Suikoden 3 got tons of hate on the internet, but it reviewed better and seemingly sold better than any other game in the series.

I put it in the same category as Chrono Cross, since they are both games that scored high, sold well, and yet managed to incur the rage of an overly vocal internet minority.

Lackshmana

TheApprentice

Or maybe Japanese people just love their text and anime chicks.

Right, that.

Gunhaver

Should I just go and shove my head into a hole now?

trogam

Sinnbox

It's called a good story.

ffmusicdj

dowingba

Demonbird

TheIrishNinja

y2kenjination

Saint Anima

Lackshmana

Sinnbox

Sinnbox

Just cuz Xenogears and Chrono Trigger are dead.

Also, Suikoden V tanked, and they haven't had good sales and critical acclaim since Suikoden 3.

And Final Fantasy VII has been butchered with disjointed "compilations." (I am hoping Crisis Core is good though)

Lackshmana

FLYBOY611

Danin

Cartman86

HateFate

Sinnbox

Sinnbox

@TheIrishNinja: Heh, I played Suikoden 2 many times...such a great game. They started to get the charm back with 5, but it wasn't completely there. Let's hope for a true sequel.

Saint Anima

ffmusicdj

Bluejuan85

Zunnoab

Erwin