Kaixx

olly246810

KingAwesome

KingAwesome

RawSteelUT

Tyle-Shananigin

Tuor

Regardless of storage space, this game is still gonna shut shit down. Kojima could've put this on 4 Blu-ray discs, a DVD and made it a requirement for gamers to endure a 2 hour install - and it would still sell shit loads on the day of release.

Random J

squidboy007

LucasKane

incredibilistic

kyaku00x

Well I guess this was the final blow to Xbox 360 users that MGS4 WILL NOT BE ON THE 360 LOSERS!

lol God Bless America :)

The-Joker

Also, does the PS3 support using multi disks for games?

Zarian

The Dark Defender

okenny :)

Reneg

This isn't just at you, but to everybody. Get the fucking hint. Either you're too dumb to tell pre-rendered CG from realtime cinematic (which obviously does NOT require high amounts of space, if any worth mentioning), or you simply don't have a fucking clue what MGS4 is like/never saw it.

Candlejack

Sheen_Latrine

Crysis is 13 F'ING GIGABYTES. And is around 5 hours. What does that tell you?

I've never seen an mgs game with fmv used to tell the plot. Only fmv i've seen is the video o the cold war in the first solid.

I think kojima's team has experience with compression. Honestly there's probably 1k hours of conversations or something. He's just saing he can't fit everything he wants and so what? I mean while all the extras kojima usually throws in are fun not ALL of them are needed. It's no big deal.

Bluray read speeds are a little bit less than dvd-9 but faster than dual layer dvd's. Suck on that for a second i'm to lazy to pull up actual benchmarks.

The 293 comments just shows how much you all want this game.

NessD12

Sqwerell

UncleScrotar

Knight-Zero

Knight-Zero

Knight-Zero

PsycheDiver

Knight-Zero

KingAwesome

Huxle

TheIrishNinja

50GB... right?

MySoul7

y2kenjination

Gam3r

Akmed

Sour grapes for everyone!

Both Blu-ray and HD-DVD are just such EPIC FAIL.

axiomatic

Kounji

well i guess people just got lazy during optimizing, a bit like vista really.

:p

well anyway this is what you get for egging on this malarky with high definition gaming.

Looks fantastic! but all the nice pretty pictures took al lthe space for the real game....

:rolleyes:

but hey, at leased you got a hard drive in the ps3 so just install it like a pc game and voila!

i don't think it'll change much, the onyl thing you'll have to wail about is that you have to fork out for 3 - 4 blu-ray disk for MGS4 and then have to install it all on the hard drive just to speed it up, and avoid disk changes.

would be interested in seeing how it pans out, it feels like it'll be something worth laughing about.

:D

Onizuka-GTO

FrigidAir44

Mr.SithNinja

- You're upset because the chances of MGS4 to 360 is now slim to none. Your wet dream just got crushed.

- You're upset because Blu Ray is NOT useless after all and that DVD-9 just no longer cuts it in near future. It reminds me 2 years ago how much you boasts that BR is not needed and DVD is good enough for next-gen gaming.

- You're upset because HDDVD that you support so much got p0wned a few weeks ago. Again, bitter loss.

- You just hate Sony and angry that they're "right" in many ways all along (needing more storage capacity, BR format). You are just bitter that the 'reality' beats your argument.

I know, the reality sucks. But just stop whinning and move on.

HobbaHobba

Shadowmist

OT79

Mr.SithNinja

Can't wait for my MGS4.

sascha23

50GB > 9GB.

No matter what kind of data it is, no matter what kind of media it is on, it will always remain true. Moron.

Mr.SithNinja

kylenalepa

i dont blame them..

chrisjokerx

Lokku

@irnchriz: Lost Odyssey has surprisingly few FMV scenes, as most of them are done real-time (looks amazing, btw)

It's because of language tracks.

TheHun

LittlestLamshi

All it proves is; if you have a smart enough and dedicated enough staff you can practically do anything.

zwilliams07

I refer you this piece of information posted by Hatchet. But if you honestly think that data repetition is in the region of several GB, you're out of your mind. It's no different than the repetition used in DVD and CD based games.

Also worth noting that a 12X DVD-ROM reads DVD-9's at half that speed. With the CAV and CLV differences, the transfer rate is pretty much a wash between the two.

Games like Resistance also supported LPCM 7.1, so the extra space isn't wasted. In Kojima's case, there's likely some sloppy programming involved if 50GB isn't enough.

@Hatchetforce:

SG79

Anyway, I'm fairly certain they're using the space for lossless audio and uncompressed textures...that counts for a lot. Is it worth it? The audio, not so much. Textures, yes.

@Dakobah: It's...common knowledge, dude.

Candlejack

Clearly the extra memory must be going to something outside of the gameplay. My guess is that it's going to HD FMVs. That's the only way you can really exhaust space like that while having a game that is around twice the size of MGS3. Even if it were 4 times the content size of MGS3, I can't imagine it going far beyond the size of a dual layer DVD. So it has to be in uncompressed audio and HD video. Thats the only legitimate explanation.

DimensionWarped

50GB is more than ever before…more for your money…thats good.

make sure the load times are short or covered up by codec/movie scenes and i'll be happy.

cant wait for this game

Accordion

And is it gonna end up as a 2 disk game when the subsistence version comes out. Some of us have learned to wait to buy MGS games. And then in 6 months after one comes out it the price drops to $20. It happened with 2 and 3.

blizzardjesus

The bottom line is that there is a technology that allows 50GB data on a single disc, why not use it? If its available, then use it.

Majority of 'they're crap developers' commenters can't just face the fact that DVD is simply being left behind.

cowboyman

okenny :)

I know... it's like those old Laserdisc arcades - the whole thing is HD video and they've just recorded a chapter for every move you might make in the game!

But seriously, if the game takes THAT much data, it had better be jaw dropping all the way through it or it'll be a big disappointment. What I'm worried about is how big will the install be?

fuchikoma

txshurricane

Maybe that wanted to be stupid dramatic in their presentation, like I dunno, Final Fantasy does in their CG cut-scenes?

I still say he's just doing it to do it now.

Ken

The reason PS3 devs claim to use so much space is simple. Instead of like most consoles where a file is on the disk once, or maybe MAYBE twice. PS3 developers put files on the disk multiple times to help reduce seek time of the slow Blu-Ray drive in the PS3. Without this tactic it would take games forever to load.

Now..mandatory installs could do away with this and then they would have plenty of room for everything but that is a very touchy subject as made evident by DMC4.

I cant wait to see the MGS4 ISO and see just how much space is wasted on the disk.

I know in the case of resistance it was 10 or more gigs of repeated files whether it was textures, shader code, sound files or other files that I have no clue what they were for.

Yea is speeds up loading and yea it was a good idea because they had so much extra space they might as well take advantage but it also shows a chink in Sony's armor. Not a major one mind you but in the case of MGS 4 its going to leave some people less then happy.

Why not offer the Dialog as an PSN extra feature and charge a couple bucks for it? That way it can just stream from the HDD.

parad0x360

Candlejack

lionkitten

they use DVD-DL (dual layer)

don't ask me where i got that info, i know a guy.

Dakobah

brieeyeball

vanderblade

if not...they still fail.
--------------------------------
Kojima hasnt used Pre-rendered cinematics ever, In any Mgs, It's always been in-game, And along with Mgs4, From what I saw was all in-game. I smell an xbot lurking about.

MenoJazz

Data compression has nothing to do with the optical media technology being used.

@Koztah: All well and good but that's not how it really works, you never dump raw stills for anything, so take into account MPEG2 or MPEG4 compression into the equation and it's no longer 31GB of raw video data...

But your calculations were actually correct for uncompressed audio (Sans AIFF or WAV headers), at a sampling frequency of 44.1KHz and 16 bit depth (CD Quality) you have 80KB of data per second at 96KHz and 24 bit depth (SACD or DVD-A quality) you have 288KB of data per second.

What you calculated for video works only for bitmapped pictures, not even for RAW, but for moving pictures you have to take more frames for interpolation (Nyquist)

zoesch

BauerStyle

Compress the fucking audio.

Not everyone has proper means to hear the LOSSLESS audio the right way.

ManjiKengo

nox

JustJake

NukaCola

CenatorC

Seiven

qBIRD

FoxHoundADAM

Darth Navster

Bitmaps are uncompressed images - they contain no compression routines, only per-pixel colour data.

Seinfeld is an american show, which means it ran at 60fps at 480i - de-interlaced we get 30fps at 640x480.

A 24-bit (no alpha channel) 640x480 bitmap is 900kb - this is a constant as there are no compression routines, so even a white pixel is represented as 255 255 255, etc.

So we get 30 per second, that's 1800 per minute. Assuming a 20 minute episode, we get 36000 frames. 36000 frames at 900 kb nets us 32400000kb, which we divide by 1024 (to mb) and then again by 1024 (to gb) and end up with roughly 31GB for video only.

Audio I can't comment on, cos I don't know crap about uncompressed audio. :P

Koztah

They had to cut material because Sony couldn't let a game use 2 or their "limitless" disks!

Even funnier when you consider that there are two games on that disk so releasing on two would not have been inconvenient!

kNZA

boots555

NightMystic

So much complaining and whining. This game will be beautiful. That's all that matters. I'm sure Kojima knows what he's doing.

Nice to see that so many people care by commenting about it though, even if the majority of the comments are negative. Kojima, well done.

Saint Anima

DesmondHume

baked ham

seafisch

baked ham

Let me put it this way. If you had a Full Blueray disc, you could put the same game on the 360 without any loss.

They said they werent satisfied with the quality because its easy to fill up a blue ray with hi def content. In fact, because the 360 has such great compression technoledgy, i beleive the 360 can actually hold more data, not just bigger data.

Marusame

As for compression, how do the majority of you know what exactly KojimaPro is doing? How do you know they aren't using as much compression as they can?
Maybe the thinking is "this is how we've rendered it and we want you to see it that way too, this is exactly the way we want you to hear it" so they leave it uncompressed. Can you blame Kojima for wanting that? I mean, if this IS the last game in the series, ever, I can understand why you might want to go out with a bang.

Additionally, what's with the comments from people who admit to not having ever played the game, or don't know about it, or absolutely hate it? We get it! You don't like the game! Why did you even bother!? I mean, obviously you seem to not be willing to give the game a try, so why are you so interested all of a sudden?

Personally, my (undereducated and underinformed) theory is that there is a reason all we've seen so far (gameplay-wise) is set in the middle east, that being it's a huge level in and of itself. Considering that there are all kinds of things you can do (or just happen on their own) with the environment, I imagine that's a lot of space in itself. And then, add the fact there are at least (I'm not quite sure if there were 3 or 4 overall, so I'll play it safe) two other locations of a about the same size. That sounds like a lot of environment to store data for, to me. Add the fact that there's supposed to be an easy way for people to refresh their memories on things being spoken about in cutscenes and that's even more space on the disc.

not_tom_brokaw

crapsh00t

He's talking about his project. It's fine. And I'm sure he's telling the truth. As I pointed out earlier, audio takes up a lot of space if you're trying to keep it lossless quality.

baked ham

@dechire: The game uses a relatively precise lip-syncing during the cinematics and codec sequences. Having a second language option would also necessitate having all of the facial animations replaced. They already said elsewhere that they wouldn't do another language otherwise because it would degenerate the quality of the cinematics to have mis-matched facial & lip animations. So I wouldn't get my hopes too high for downloadable languages either.

baked ham

The Dark Defender

The Dark Defender

No offense, I like this game and all and I want it, but the screens and video clips aren't the most impressive to me :/...so wth?

Vecha

Spiffyness

Though i wonder if any thought had been given to having the Japanese version as a download supplement.

/shrug

dechire

Herbal23

Herbal23

LX

KM91

the ps3 can read bd-r dl, i've burned 'several' bd-r dl movies and they work fine on the ps3.

kneehighspy

zerokoolpsx

Wyld

Super Audio CD uses Direct Stream Transfer data compression to achieve lossless audio at 3 times compression. Using this method, 80 minutes audio stored as both 2-channel Stereo & 5.1-channel Surround would require 4.7 GB.

Think about a Metal Gear Solid game. There is a lot of music. A whole lot of talking. A ton of sound effects. He talks about how he can't fit it all on the disc and starts talking about compression... well, with 3x lossless compress with Direct Stream Transfer, 47 of his 50 gig are used with 13 hours of audio.

If there were a few hours of talking and a couple hours of music, you could guess there's about 6 or 7 hours of audio. He says they're looking at pieces to compress, not everything, so some of that might take up more space than 4.7 GB per 80 minutes. But even if everything is DST compressed, then it could still easily utilize 30 GB or so of the disc just for audio. Then there's all the other video assets, textures, code, etc.

If he's truthful about lossless audio, compressed or not, then he's talking about using up some serious space for audio. Period.

baked ham

[www.konami.jp]

DeeBG

DeeBG

The Dark Defender

DeeBG

DankPanties

DeeBG

scottyboy218

baked ham

baked ham

And why should they release a multi disk game to just have one disk English and one disk Japanese? Just to satisfy a small percentage that wants to hear it in a different language but too cheap to pay $20 more for an import?

On the other hand, if they could fit both languages in, and people are asking, why the hell won't they??? It would sure cut their cost of not having to print 2 different types of disks right?

So to all you people that are complaining, DO YOU HAVE A BRAIN? DO YOU EVER "THINK" INSTEAD OF JUST BRAINLESSLY COMPLAIN???

Other whiners and trolls, if you wanna play MGS4 and too poor to buy a PS3, either go get a fucking job, or just shut the hell up.

ド低脳野郎がマジ多すぎる。お願いだから、死ね！

Dir_en_grey

"AAHHHH, I COULD NOTS FULLFILL MY MGS 4 VISIONS DUE TO LACKS OF MEMORIES ON BLUE RAY DISKZ LAWL!"

Make the best game you can. Ill pay the extra cost.

p.s I love Metal Gear, but I know Kojima is a movie creator at heart. I think our predictions of 3 hour Otacon - Snake - Raiden (?) epic manlove scenes will comprise much of the game.

BiffVelvet

DeeBG

Name ONE PS3 game that needs a 50GB Blu-Ray disc?

irnchriz

It has 256MB of SYSTEM Memory and 256MB of Graphics memory. This makes it an entirely different beast from the 360 which has 512 of unified system/graphics memory PLUS an additional very fast 10MB on the graphics card. this means more memory can be addressed by the graphics card or system as required.

' Also, the dashboard uses less ram than XMB, but PS3 games don't use XMB during the game, so this shouldn't even be an issue.'

SONY have announced that in-game XMB will be coming this year, which means that either they will have to patch EVERY game released so far or it will only become available on new titles designed for the memory shortfall due to the XMB

'In any case, once the game is released, all it will take is someone with a BD-ROM drive to ascertain exactly how much space is taken up, unless Sony blocks that the way MS blocked it with Xbox games (I can't even look at an Xbox game disc on my PC, it won't recognize it, while it DOES recognize PS2 and PS1 games... Not sure if this is an isolated incident)'

As with every single Blu-Ray game out so far it will be ripped and dumped onto the newsgroups on launch day so that everyone can see the iso size and contents.

irnchriz

Mark Rein said that they may struggle to get all of the PS3 maps onto the xbox 360 DVD as their maps were huge and the textures might not fit on the smaller DVD9's used by the 360.

THEN UT3 is released and uses a paltry 5GB on the Blu-Ray.

Just another developer talking bullshit.

irnchriz

Rask

Hopefully by the time the MGS4:Subsistaniousity is ready to be released, 200GB BD discs will have been perfected (it's made up of 4 50GB layers and has been worked on for a while, so I expect to see them released sometime in 2008... of course we will probably get 100GB versions first). Thankfully with HD-DVD out of the picture, studios and technology companies will really be willing to put their weight behind improving BD specs and capacity.

DeeBG

Just think. If they weren't there they could probably fill the disc up with more gameplay. It would be cheaper to bundle the previous three MGS games than it would be to create all that dead weight.

Dioxen

Blinded220

Of course, Im ever so slightly bias due to my belief that the MGS series should have died long ago....but still.

CanaryWundaboy

somarix

audio817

In any case, once the game is released, all it will take is someone with a BD-ROM drive to ascertain exactly how much space is taken up, unless Sony blocks that the way MS blocked it with Xbox games (I can't even look at an Xbox game disc on my PC, it won't recognize it, while it DOES recognize PS2 and PS1 games... Not sure if this is an isolated incident)

bobtheduck

How many multi DVD games are there on the 360?

2?

Blue Dragon and Lost Odyssey.

Why?

These developers are too lazy or have no skillful coders to enable REALTIME cut scenes using the ingame graphics engine.

Lost Odessey has hours of cut scenes, and these are all pre-rendered. In truely traditional Final fantasy style these design studios are simply lazy and or unwilling to make use of extensive in-game engine cut scenes. The difference in size between FMV and game engine cut scenes are staggeringly huge. This is the reason that a game like GTA IV although a staggeringly huge and detailed game with hours of dialogue and music takes up <8GB.

If lost odyssey used ONLY ingame engine for cut scenes it would have easily fit onto a DVD9.

irnchriz

Either that or there's every movie MGS ever took inspiration from included as bonus unlockables.

Sabre_Justice: Okay, no more long name.

mizeriq

Take the Orange Box for example. Xbox 360 >7GB but PS3 18GB

Of course he may be doing all of the video at 1080p VC1 which would eat a considerable amount of space.

Either way, I hope it is as good as MGS on the PS1 and not a poor sequel like 2 & 3 were.

irnchriz

the game probably is only 7GB but needed to be placed in 7 different tracks in order to compensate for lower data rate of blu-ray....

icepick314

Ultrasinc

So who knows what he is talking about. The game clearly uses a lot of space, but I suspect that some simple lossy audio compression would free up some room with no noticeable effect on gameplay or user experience.

DrXym

Jeremy

new_pornographer

SumDum_Guy

UFO

hopelesshindu

Don't forget, MG Online is also included in this BD. So God knows how much addition is piled on top of MGS4.

Last but not least, you're assuming that Kojima is using 50GB BD but we don't know that. For all we know, he's only using 25GB BD and by his quote, he probably meant he wants 50GB BD.

Evo

Frank

Flawless101

Ultimately, it affects your overall experience, as pointed out by dowingba.

CartBlanche

iGRIND

You're more understanding than I took you for, excellent!

DarkCode

Toprem

RuneX

i'm certainly no expert on these matters, but back in the dual/triple/quadruple disc days, it was almost always due to the extensive FMV involved (Final Fantasy, i'm looking at you).

Though, I suppose, Metal Gear 1 was 2 discs and no FMV... It's possible, but I find it unlikely. I think it's a convenient way to cover up for a decision that some committee at Konami HQ made to save a few bucks and they're forcing poor Kojima to make up excuses.

burgerdog

now seriously, if MGS4 is taking up a whole disc, it is safe to say i wont be beating it in a day or 2. better ask for more days off come june. i already got thejune 11
(my b-day) and the 12 of June :D

zanzibarlegend

And as far as not considering the PC... that's because the PC is not a gaming console. It is a multi-function device that *can* play games but good luck running Assassin's Creed (for example) on a PC that costs less than a brand new PS3 or 360.

Lemming To The Sea

Uncompressed video IS completely uncompressed.... It has all pixel data stored for every single pixel in every frame, you can't get much more uncompressed than that...

Unless you wanted to film some sort of HDR video so it includes the luminosity of every pixel in every frame as well.

khdownes

karmakid

Anyways we don't know enough about MGS4 to know why it takes up the space it does. But if I had to take a guess, it doesn't take up all that space because the game will take 100000000 hours to beat.

kojirodensetsu

crXss

0xdeadc0de

zenran

Alex_Mexico

Scipher

deathbunny

PixelRambo

Agreed, with caveats- the PS3 2X blu-ray drive will always read close to the minimum read speed of a 12X DVD drive, like that in the 360. (see: this article) However this does not automatically imply data repetition throughout the game disc (see: disk caching). For many games released the read speed is sufficient and caching unnecessary.

Comments such as this:

"for Blu-ray not to be an incredibly slow piece of crap data needs to be repeated several times over the course of the disc to make access easier."

are hyperbole. It's not incredibly slow, nor a piece of crap (see: scratched discs), but it is slower. That said, it's fast enough for all the games I've played so far. I could care less about game installs, as that is what the hard disc is for.

Finally, it needs to be sai