tegthethird

It ultimately seems a bit tasteless to me. It's not that the medium is wrong for this, it's that it seems oddly more pre-occupied with another agenda (which could very well backfire).

futurebiblehero

a. Saying that I personally would not let my children play the game as it is.

b. Saying that a game with graphic content sould not be rated "E" for everyone.

How do either of those things imply that I am telling people how to raise their children?

HamboneWilson

There's a big difference between how Jews and Chinese react to the respective atrocities committed against them. Jews in general HAVE gotten over the holocaust. There's no idiotic calling of boycots of Germany, there arn't riots in the streets of Jerusalem fueling Jewish hatred of Germany, etc etc. While I'm certain there are some Jews who still vehemently hate Germans for the holocaust it's not a significant portion of the population, as is the deal in China. Of course, the Israeli government doesn't have a vested interest in fostering German hatred, as the Chinese goverment does for Japan.

Race has nothing to do with it. The Chinese should "get over it" because it's fucking ridicuous to keep the hatred alive when neither country can do anything about it. Japan's government has apologized numerous times for the shit it did during WWII, but simply because a couple of idiots keep visiting Yasukuni shrine every year, the hatred is maintained. Yasukuni enshrines more than just WWII war criminals, about 2,000,000 more people actually, and visiting the damn place should not be seen as a celebration of those idiot's actions.

*Sigh*

I don't have the energy to keep typing this crap.

tl;dr version - Jews have gotten over it, Chinese have not. They should.

Atheist Jew

The NSDAP has a place in german government? WTF????

little_dragon

As for church, well, no watered down imagery for me. Full color illustrations of the crucifiction, the stoning of Stephen, and the descriptions of Hell and
damnation weren't no walk in the park ^_<.

But then, I had parents who were a spiritual and moral guidepost, who, while certainly not perfect, made sure we could go into the future with our eyes wide open.

Nowadays we have buttinskis, both conservative and liberal, trying to tell us what we need to show the children, hiding the truth from them, fearing that it'll damage their psyches or something. Of course, if there is no balance, it probably would.

I remember a German lady who used to visit my mom back then, when some German civilians were claiming that they never knew what was happening. She said that was not true; She mentioned how the air would smell around the places when the bodies were being burnt, and it was pretty common knowledge what was happening. And I was 5 or 6 at the time.

It didn't traumatize me; It made me want to know more.

relic1980

relic1980

WhoreofSpamylon

*cough*Pan Labyrinth Ripoff*cough*

WhoreofSpamylon

*Cought* BBFC, PEGI etc

SGR

@Ninja-Z: That's also not quite true that "Germany has the problem with Nazi-related games/movies/etc.[...]". True, the display of the Swastika is not allowed (by law) BUT it's absolutely no problem in documentaries and art. But guess what isn't considered as art? Right, videogames. So the Indiana Jones movies are totally ok while the Indiana Jones games had to be censored. Completely ridiculous, I know, but that's the way it is.

Mucki

I guess the point I'm trying to make is people freak out when they see Nazi symbols. The Nazis were not the best of people, and have been the bad guys of Lord knows how many medal of honor/call of duty games, but when someone tries to show just what their impact on society was, we can't have that.

I think part of this game's fate is in the hands of Sabatuer. If the public can handle the constant Nazi imagery in that game, they should be able to handle these demon shadow Nazis here.

ggodo

Dauragon C. Mikado

AcerBandit

I look forward to how this game progresses though. Very interesting discussion here. I enjoy the thoughts on how the style is wrong. The imagination even if it becomes a world to itself of scary things does not become a cartoon for a child.. However, it is easier to translate the vision as such in a cartoon style. I do wonder how this would be were it in the style of perhaps Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark or those old spooky black and white cartoons. And it's not like this sort of thing hasn't already been done in Maus: A Survivor's Tale by Art Spiegelman.

AcerBandit

TRT-X

I don't think any young child needs to hear about other children being subjected to sex changes without anesthesia and then murdered. I think it's important to educate children about the holocaust, but that level of detail is enitirely inappropriate and unnecessary.

It reminds me of when I went to see "Passion of the Christ" and parents had six year old kids there watching the whole flailing and crucifiction scene. I suppose they felt it important for them to see what Jesus went through, but they have probably left their children so traumatized that they will not be able to look at a crucifix without feeling fear and revulsion.

Just because a topic is historically and spiritually important to your culture, doesn't mean you should ignore the impact it could have on your child by exposing them to it too early and too graphically. If Bernard intends to release this is a E rated game, then the "History Facts" portion and any other equally disturbing dialogue needs to be watered down. As an M rated game these portions are fine the way they are and I would certainly look forward to playing it myself.

HamboneWilson

Wolfkin

The aesthetic used here is completely incongruous and inappropriate. In Pan's Labyrinth and Maus cartoonish and fantastic imagery was put to use in a way that heightened the emotional pitch of the historical events depicted. This visual style does almost the opposite, bowdlerizing the very real evils of Naziism into insipid Walt Disney-style cartoon monsters.

Luc, you defend this aesthetic saying that it is aimed ant children, and portrayed through the eyes of a child, but the imagery you're using is completely NOT how a child would envision the holocaust. It's how Tim Burton would envision it.

You're succumbing to the mentality that kids aesthetic = Disney aesthetic, which in most cases would simply be artistically lazy, but in THIS case is artistically irresponsible.

bakana

DaiMacculate

The creator of this game could easily make this more appropriate for the DS; so that it could be a game everybody can enjoy but still make a statement on the Holocaust in a more subtle way. My guess is the Nazi imagery and (in my opinion pretty pointless) facts will be removed.

McPoogle

kurwinsky

khangargunza

surft

I am glad a game is tackling a difficult subject. I just wish that it was something more current. Africa,Eastern Europe,Iraq,Afghanistan all these places ha turmoil that we as westerners do not fully understand. A game could help get some perspective.

We all learn so much about The Holocaust. Do we need more facts on it?

jackal888

Nayl

"In Greek mythology, the Minotaur (Greek: Μῑνώταυρος, Mīnṓtauros) was a creature that was part man and part bull. The Minotaur was eventually killed by Theseus."
(source Wikipedia)

It reminds me of a joke about Ocean making a game based on Schindlers List. A platformer that makes you fight Nazis, there are also bonus items that are converted to extra lifes inbetween levels.
"This gold bar... *sniff* two extra lifes!"

Like Naurgul said - the real challenge will be to integrate history, not to make a spooky platformer with lots of swastikas and the Führer as the boss. I really hope the team can do it, but that´s nothing you can judge based on a handful of screenshots.

My opinion is that the platform genre is not really fit to transport a lot of story. But maybe I will be surprised in a really good way. :)

SenorKaffee

The interactivity, which is the most crucial part for a videogame, must be integrated with the theme in such a way that you really makes you feel and/or think something about it, preferably in a way you haven't done before. That's what art is all about, not reskinning a Mario game, replacing mushrooms with magic mushrooms and then declaring you made a game about drug addiction.

While I'm not saying that this is what this game will turn out to be, I say that we should look at such efforts with only a pinch of optimism and not herald them as the pinnacle of gaming which will lead to them being universally recognised as a form of art.

Naurgul

X1Commander

Taco Bell™

Additionally, can I pay you now for the game, and you can just send me a copy once it's done? ;P

BPMΣ

I don't know what school books you're using, but all history books I've read so far include every brutal detail about every religion, so I'm guessing it depends on whether the school is public or private. Not to mention that media being challenged does not equal censorship on a worldwide scale.

Ninja-Z

lucbernard26

otakucode

Aflack: Likes slushies

Raziel078

kuzuboshii

Desgardes

If so Ill be sure to order a copy!

Witzbold

masternater27

They've been nuked into complete pacificsm, for fuck's sake. There's always going to be a part of the country's population rooted in ignorance and idiocy, but that's something every country has to deal with, and as long as you continue to maintain this baseless, pointless hatred you're just contributing to the world's problems. If you want something to hate, how about your own government? Surely by now the Chinese government has commited as many human rights atrocities as Japan.

Atheist Jew

Well that occured against China who are communists so it doesn't matter. Plus Unit 731 got a free pass since they were employed by the US military after the end of the war.

Yetanotheruninspiredscreename

otakucode

Fyren

astrixzero

otakucode

a friend of Bill? we are both collaborating on the art style, even if I am looking after the characters more

we need more people to support this, I am open to all ideas if anyone finds anything offensive

lucbernard26

Desgardes

I really hope that this game is fought for. The original artistic vision should be fought for without compromise. Even if the game were utterly repulsive in its conception, freedom of speech exists to protect speech that people want to stop, not the stuff people don't mind.

I don't know if I would aim the game at small children simply because the frontal cortexes of their brain are not active until puberty and without that, they have no capacity for actual empathy. They can learn facts, they can learn the behaviors they are supposed to mimic, but they cannot feel empathy which would be really important for this game. People tend to give media that deals with the Holocaust special treatment, so I would expect there to be less fuss about the game than normal as long as it is approached in the socially accepted manner. People let teenagers watch Schindler's List even though it had nudity in it when usually they cry and whine and scream that teenagers don't have bodies so it will warp their minds to see people with them (sarcasm there).

I'd personally appreciate it if the history were approached holistically and not edited down to what is usually told. There were many classes of people killed during the Holocaust in addition to Jews. Retarded people were sterilized en masse in both Germany and in the United States as part of state run eugenics programs. States had competitions with other states to sterilize as many mentally retarded and down syndrome people every month. The USA bestowed awards on Hitler for his work in eugenics before it was discovered that he was having them killed rather than sterilized. Homosexuals and blacks were also targetted as well as other foreigners.

The viewpoint of Hitlers "good little Germans" is important as well. I think it'd be very impressive if you could get young players to sit back and realize that the things we hear about Gitmo and Abu Gharib and muslims are the exact same kind of things the German people heard about the Jews. The same justifications were being used by the leaders and the people were following along with them, intentionally turning a blind eye to the situation out of fear. Remember the Reichstag fire, where they claimed a Jewish man performed a terrorist attack on a government building and the Night of Glass that followed.

There are so many vastly important things to learn from that era of history, it's difficult to even pick out what to focus upon... Good luck.

otakucode

Raziel078

I realize it's not about numbers but all of these things should be given equal educational value.

@GimmeCat: You probably should have said that back in 2003 when Call of Duty was released.

Atheist Jew

leoPirate

hrunting

GimmeCat

lucbernard26

I really hope you're able to release this game, Luc. But I'm pessimistic by nature, and I can't see it being released as you envision it.

Atheist Jew

It'd still be great to se a game cried out about and censored that actually DESERVES the attention and debate it'll no doubt bring, instead of just using controversy as an inexpensive marketing campaign.

Khab

lucbernard26

Dirty Mongrel

But Jewish communities will not be happy, especially not if the game carries a cartoon-like aesthetic.

Nor will soccer moms, bible thumping christians, or pretty much anybody else uneducated enough not to know the origins of the Swastika. Or realize that education about the holocaust is important.

I guarantee that before this game is released (if it ever is), every single swastika will be removed. I'm surprised Nintendo even agreed to look at the game. America as a whole is not socially mature enough to handle the integration of Nazi-related content into a cartoonish video game. And don't even get me started on Germany.

Back in 99' I was doing QA at Activision. I was tasked at one point to play through a build of Star Trek: Hidden Evil looking for absolutely anything that might look like or be mistaken as a swastika. This game will not see a release in Germany.

Atheist Jew

lucbernard26

Drake Lake: Phase Lunaire

lucbernard26

BluFire

Well things are somewhat different now that the video game industry is more powerfull. Nintendo's self censorship was an unfortuant necessity at the time otherwise the video game industry would have been destroyed.

Yetanotheruninspiredscreename

otakucode

CockroachMan

Germany has funky ass laws that although are meant to not allow promotion of pro nazi or denial of the holocaust make it very hard to do any game based on that time. Nazi flags for instance are often removed.

Also in the states we have people who want Harry Potter out of school libraries or Tom Sawyer which is anti-white trash and anti-racism book. Look at how many books are challenged. Books such as the Hot Zone which details how Ebola and other such nasty viruses kill people and how diseases like it spread with the potential of it becoming a plague.

School Books in the states are incredibly watered down to not offend supposed Christians. Oh we cannot mention that Christmass was illegal under the Puritans for several decades in the United States and that prior to the late 19th century Churches had their doors closed to prevent people from coming in to worship or that no stores were closed that day. Oh we cannot also mention that the mail was delivered on Sundies till some churches complained that it was hampering their efforts to promote Christianity because people would rather go to the Post Office each week to pick up their mail rather then listen to some nut job preacher.

Yetanotheruninspiredscreename

Spolodaface

kuzuboshii

kuzuboshii

That, and I don't see what's so taboo about Nazi symbols in a video game. World War II shooters have shown it for years, and you can control Nazis in those game. Here is a game that paints the Nazi war crimes as gruesome and immoral, and suddenly their appearance is wrong? The ESRB might make odd decisions every now and then, but we're log past the time when Wolfenstein had all Nazis removed.

Ninja-Z

Pangaru

otakucode

Also the actual text is rather brutal and I expect that to be demanded to be toned down.

Morberis

ostartero

Hats off to the guy for trying to tackle this, though.

VergessenHeld

I should have been more specfic in my first post. I was referring to the specific style used in the above images. The characters, with their fixed 3/4 views and big, googly eyes, seem limited in the amount of meaningful emotion they could convey.

Floral

JN64Lover

BassForever

@Foggynotion: Actually, if they held back a bit with the Nazi symbolism it might be able to be used to amp up the importance of the game. It might help people see what it was actually like to live in Germany during that time. The way it is usually presented, most people have no concept of how normal people could let something like this happen. If they didn't make it look like a circus sideshow with swaztikas plastered EVERYWHERE, they might be able to see how such atrocities happen slowly, by degrees. You know, illustrate how close we are now to something like this. Show the truth of the old addage "All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

@EdwinJ85: All great works of art are torn apart by the mainstream.

otakucode

DaiMacculate

blackadvent

I'm sad to say this but no matter how arty this game is the Holocaust is such a sensitive topic that fox news or the sun or both are going to NUKE this game.

I hope it is good but we need to wait a few more years for more public acceptance before we try and broach such issues with games. That said, the developer must have very big balls. Good luck I say.

EdwinJ85

Hopefully this doesn't come off as some "Edutainment" game.

yourenzyme

It looks intriguing but the insert-random-holocaust-fact bottom screen looks too make me loose interest as a game and detracts from the actual storytelling. At least in my opinion...

Emulated

Zenian

Drake Lake: Phase Lunaire

This game's characters look like they were designed on a graphing calculator. Combining that with a heavy handed display of brutal facts, does not even approach the tact of Maus.

I am by no means saying this will be a bad game, as we know very little of it. I was responding to the creator wanting it to be taken as seriously in the same way as a great film.

Floral

MasterOfPastures

Dauragon C. Mikado

Many people fail spectacularly when tackling subjects far outside their personal experience, and you can't get much further from modern civilised life than the Holocaust. The very attempt strikes me as arrogant, but if he can weave something more compelling than a platformer where the bad guys wear swastikas and new levels pop up 'helpful facts' I'll buy it. And I don't even have a DS yet :)

I guess I want to see more about the perspective he's bringing to the topic first. Art to me is about the subtle and experiential... factual text and obvious symbolism is just unengaging surface detail.

randomnine

Lijik

masternater27

yourenzyme

Yeah I was just about to mention the fact that this sounds exactly like Pan's Labyrith just during the German Holocauset instead of in Spain under Franco. I would probably play it, but then again I dont know how much I would want too if it was too depressing :-(

fanty

ChronosCrow

Pombar

Gambare

Pombar

N15PCA

Drake Lake: Phase Lunaire

Sabre_Justice: Okay, no more long name.

Ninja-Z

stryker1800

If Luc Bernard wants the credibility of video games as an art form the mastery of a narrative is prioritized above all else.

Foggynotion

dexterr

I don't understand why it would be censored just because of the swastika. Maybe in Germany yes, but else where i would hope not. Maybe now those who deny the holocaust will believe because theres a game about it

ArmyofJuan

I hope it doesn't just end up being another "shoot the Nazis" piece of crap.

otakucode

Torgen got his apology faceplate but not his fixed GH3 disc

You earn points for burning Jews.

onidavin

Thorax

Floral