Raziel078

The youth will always be on front lines of all new things.

Jet Set

I would say that he was just using a comparison for comparison's sake, rather than creating an honest, fair analogy.

Vegeta

I can almost agree with that, but Nintendo's change of tactics this generation with the Ds and Wii is actually making Video Gaming stories about people of ages playing games and seeing more direct benefits of video gaming, albeit through things like Wii Sports, Brain Training, even Trauma Center games...

I semi agree that Video games are viewed as juvenile by those that DON'T play them because, it is true most games people see advertised or proclaimed as great by media and gamers do tend to be games involving violence, guns, or women in skimpy clothes.

The reason why I believe video gaming will remain 'juvenile' is because as time has gone by, directly 'educational' games are largely ignored by gamer run press and mainstream press, and those kind of 'games' aren't even viewed as Video Games. Unlike TV/Movies, there do exist popular documentary like shows and even movies, that show to audiences, movies/tv shows directly do teach educational benefits, but those documentary like media is still viewed as a part of the Movie/TV industry.

With books this is the same, though the top books are probably generic mindless fiction trash, there are many many people of all ages out there that do buy and read books for direct educational purposes, and those types of books are still viewed as part of 'book reading'.

Educational video games, or teaching software, to the public don't come under the classification 'video games', they come under the classification educational/teaching software. Where as 'Video Games' are viewed as games involving no directly visible educational benefits.

For all the Nintendo bashing, and gamers protesting about 'non-games' by Nintendo (Brain Training an example), the protests actually perpetuates the 'juvenile' view of 'video games'. If gamers and mainstream could be convinced that Brain Training like 'games', are video games, then its a step closer to show that Video Gaming is a mature activity, when a person playing a game like that actually describes it as playing a 'Video Game' to people, its is a step closer to people viewing gaming as a 'mature' activity.

charsuipau

The only people who think otherwise are stuck in the PlayStation generation.

stuminus3

Bioshock is what a game shouldn't be. It feels like a half-baked old art form instead of trying to show art how a new medium can show it. Movies and books show it much differently, as does music, so why should games try to copy off them instead of be something unique?

Sinfjotle

Maybe if instead of calling them video games we called Video Time-Spenders they would be more popular, it's just the "GAME" part that makes even 15 years say"I don't play video games, I play real sports!" and they goes and buys a PSP...

VakeroRokero

it's easier video games will grow up when gamers grow up, than make older people play common video games, unless they are radically new like the Wii. My father plays Wii Sports with me, but he won't play Mario Galaxy. It's common sense.

The same will happen to video game movies, until the 80's kids start turning into 50, there won't be good Mario bros or Megaman movies.

VakeroRokero

bobtheduck

soap_box

The mass public loves to eat up low brow crap while the minority never gets to see the creations fused with intelligence peak.

So why would video games be any different when every other art form has the same exact problem?

Even more so...where else can video games go from here? What other topics and storylines can be thought of that are no different from anything that has come out in the last 25 years?

There might be a glimmer of hope. But as long as you have conglomerate companies like EA eating up the little guys, seeing games that truly are a testament to creativity will just keep being shoved under the rug while Madden keeps running the pockets.

Batousi

The problem has never been the medium, it's the message.

The problem with games is that people tend to expect a lot more given the interactivity of the media and are normally rewarded with either grinding gameplay, reflex testing or an exercise in figuring out the designer's logic.

That hasn't stopped gaming masterpieces like Grim Fandango, Okami, Shadow Of The Collosus, Descent Freespace or Wing Commander (for example) from being made though, it's a matter of time and a matter of industry maturity.

zoesch

@spiderweb1986: Correct. And even comics, like those from a newspaper, having been getting academic treatment, especially Krazy Kat or Calvin and Hobbes.

Games, like comics, are cultural artifacts and are of, if not intellectual value, anthropological value for the way they embed and embody our cultural attitudes. To wit: I am a student at UW-Madison, and our library system has started checking out videogames. [www.college.library.wisc.edu]

Of course, I admit that just because people are giving games a more critical eye doesn't mean they are growing up necesssarily, but at least it tells us that games are ready to be taken seriously by some people.

tristax

Allen750

kidnicky

Arcturian

Guizzy

Holy crap! The games that are exciting and full of gun-toting violence and action aren't mature enough. What the hell do you want? There's never going to be a Mona Lisa of gaming. Games will get more beautiful and intense, no doubt, and more creators will experiment with emotional and philosophically heavy writing in games, but what do you expect? "War and Peace: the Game"?

I find it deplorable on Walker's part to join the discussion and essentially say that all games are crap. Bioshock failed? HOW?! This isn't rampant fanboyism, but it was a game that surprised me, and it was a game that mixed fun gameplay and amazing artistic direction, with a story that could only take place within the confines of Rapture. If that's not an accomplishment for gaming then I don't know what is.

Games like Bioshock, Okami, and No More Heroes have proved that gaming can still be fun and infantile as much as it wants while still surpassing any other medium out there. No book could've captured the looming dread of Rapture's dystopian destruction. No painting could've captured the artistic beauty of running freely through Nippon, and no movie could've captured that over-the-top surprise you found in every fight within No More Heroes.

Regardless of sales of mass appeal, they were made and they stand in bold-faced defiance to this bullshit.

ChrowX

Stagnation is hardly the problem; what does keep games a step behind other forms of media, and pretty much always will, is that it's pretty much always going to be harder to get a game made that risks pissing off even a small segment of the audience no matter what that segment might be, because the audience for games pretty much runs the entire human spectrum, while still only encompassing a minority from any given group. This is why religion and games get along about as well as Hannibal Lecter sharing a small apartment with the Shelly Duvall character from the Shining.

cynopt

Much like you, I like finding the little ideas that are hidden in the flash. Makes any medium worth experiencing, really.

I find it funny that one of the greatest playwrights ever, William Shakespeare, was considered "low brow" by the establishment of his time. Perhaps when we're all dead, the elite of the future will sit there heralding Miyamoto or Wright or Carmack. Interesting to think about.

RawSteelUT

Cruithne

EmeraldDragon

I rather prefer it keeps part of its childish qualities, and to hell with those who will look down on me for playing with the Lego games and Cooking Mamas. It's a form of youthful entertainment, a simplistic fun that doesn't bog me down with realism and growing up. Because I will always continue to grow up, I'm forced to as I age to have to be 'adult' in some way and deal with the 'real world' and all it's cracked up to be. The moment I start regressing to a childlike self in real life is either the same moment people decide to lock me up for insanity, give me pills to 'correct' the problem, or throw me in a retirement home. At least with video games, I still have the ability and choice to play something childish or mature.

MelodyKitn

Part of be addult is to not-care-a-shit about other people wrong assumptions, be FREE to have a life. If my choice is to watch anime, is my choice as a adult. People that is wrong, with continue wrong. And make petitions, and say that the bible say videogames are wrong. And stuff. I don't care.
My library has more than 200 books, and I used as student to read 3 books every week. Today,.. with a job, I may read a book every book, or less. Comics?, I read as much as "really good" exist: Watchmen, V for Vendetta, 300, Autorithy, Planetary, Vagrant, GUNM, etc.. Anime? I try to watch the very good stuff out here. I torrent it, or pando it, or usenet it. I am happy with that, and I don't feel is childish, more that some people minset is stuck on somewrong idea. Poor bastards.

Tei

I thought FMA/evangelion was as adult as you can get?

The good news is as the old die off there will be less and less of this because more and more young people are into the same thing. yay!

EdwinJ85

Probably this is just a problem of tools. The tools needed to make a Vg are still what was for movies to be able to pay a troupe to film in the early years: expensive and usable by a professional elite.
When the "digital revolution" that happened to the filmmaking will come for the videogame medium, it will be possible for people to craft more experience and be on par with what the money-driven industry offers.

Again then, the web still gives you the possibility to get user-generated videogames content and when a mass distribution medium shared by all will success, then we'll have an equivalent of the TV for videogames too.Probably.

Once discovered meaningful interaction (so that is not your remote control) and virtual complex worlds exploration, we just can't forget about it, we just can expect more with it.

AGPym

The point I'd like to make is that I agree with the article's prediction that games will forever "infantilized", but for a slightly different reason: Good movies can be made relatively cheaply, while good non-trivial videos games can't. Therefore we are never going to get the diversity you see in TV and movies as nearly every game has to be aimed at the mass audience.

IronsUK

For example:

- Why 99.0% of the products that can be reckognized as videogames are strictly overcharacterized as genre material or something that evades reality settings and new mechanics: science fiction, fantasy, old west, crime movie, fables, etc.

- Why it's an incredible exception that videogames are filled with "profound" themes, events or mechanics.

- Why lot of consumers pretend that the interaction with virtual worlds MUST absolutely be FUN and A GAME and not be more complex experiences (so that the medium will be called videogame forever and forever they will preserve their favourite "hobby" to "kill time" - if it was for that, books should be only about Tom Clancy and Movies only about Blockbusters), and why conceptually they are developed mostly to be a game mechanic at it's core and rarely something different.

- Why to produce an M-rating in a videogame today the industry fills it with bad language, violence and bloodsheds and still stays in the overcharacterized genre thing.

- Why there are still tons of intellectuals loosing time in theorizing the game vs narrative thing while some products are already gone beyond anything this superficial.

AGPym

People look at flash, and thinks theres nothing to back it up. That, because there are sexy women, rugged men, and explosions means that there's nothing to be gained intellectually.

What I really don't get is the whole notion that these things disqualify a story (comic, movie, video game, whatever) from having relevance or meaning. Is it really so wrong to enjoy a good deal of action along with a deep and 'real' character?

Who dictates 'social relevance?' Just because one person doesn't find meaning in something doesn't mean another can't, or that what they learned wasn't important.

Take Mandalorians: they're a race of mercenaries who devote their lives to combat. Sounds fluffy right? Well, none of that oh so devaluing sparkle prevented me from learning one lesson from them - family is what you make it, not your blood relatives. Whenever I read Boba Fett comics, I'm almost constantly amazed at what a cold and vicious killer he is, but then I think about what he's doing. Boba Fett's actions, the way he operates as a bounty hunter, raises so many questions about morality and ethics that are (to me) debatable I'm frustrated most people don't take it seriousley (to a point). Life and death are the rawest form of philosophy - surival of a species (or in Star Wars case, surival of life itself), and Fett's take on personal strength and life itself is something that makes me think

I know that example is probably either making someone laugh right now, or causing another to write a mocking reply.

Here's another example, the Megatron Origin's story. You could look at the comic and say, "Gee, giant transofrming robots on a robot world and theres war = infantile bullshit." I read that story and enjoyed the complexity of Megatrons character as he went from a simple minded miner to the leader of an entire revolutionary sect. Is it some major revolutionary tale of government corruption and rebellion? No. It's not A Tatle of Two cities. I'm just saying, it had some decent elements that provided for critical thought. I could say, argue with someone about the Autobot government and the opression of the working class. The thing about SciFi and fantasy is,sometimes it's just not 'for' you, but that doesn't mean it has zero value.

I'm not saying that you need the flash for lessons to be learned, but that I think people need to start looking past that and gleaning lessons from these 'pulp' stories. Not all of them have anything of value, sure, but many do and deserve credit for it.

Whenever someone brings up "arthouse film" or "mature mediums" or any of those serialized and hyped up terms that everyone equates with brilliance, I want to scream. If half of these people are so intellectual, why do thy need meaning crammed down their throats? Where's the appreciation for realistic characters and complex plots that takes place in a 'childish' world?

Devil May Cry. Pulp right? Worth nothing to anyone? I had an argument with my friend about Virgil (I think I've said this before). Virgil was so driven to get more power he was willing to damn the entire planet to get it, but he wanted that power to protect. He said, "What's the will to protect someone if you don't have the power to do it?" or something to that effect. That whole bit made me mull over hte concdept, and in that process I was thinking critically and learned a lesson that's relevant and meaningful to my life.

You don't need things to be nonsensical, overly artsy, or lacking of any action or aesthetic appeal to be mature. Can't anyone see the value that exists underneath all the violence and sexiness? It doesn't have to be thrown in your face to be worth anything.

Dead or Alive. Meant for horny teenagers who lust for babes and violence. Sure, they're sexy and there's a whole lot of action, but I look at Bayman. Bayman was hired by Helena to protect her. Bayman, however, wouldn't take the job if Helena didn't have resolve enough to fight him. He wouldn't help someone if they didn't have a strong will to fight for what they want, and that ties in to a whole mentality that is extremely relevant to the 'human condition.'

I know anyone whose reading this and scoffing is probably thinking that I'm just looking too deeply into video games and comics, but I say you should try thinking harder about what you're casting off as immature.

If N'Gai Croal and the like cry out for the arthouse verions of video games, what made them fans of games in the first place? I'm pretty sure Pac Man didn't have shit to teach anyone, so maybe it's some misplaced longing to be apart from 'mainstream.' I think it's time for all thse naysayers to grow up, and stop judging soley on over-the-top elements.

Garro

boxofthegods

I'd just like to say that I completely agree with you, Wuth. However, I don't think you're going to have any luck convincing these guys.

aloftis

It's unfortunate, but I don't see much hope for games to change their themes. It's just that war makes such a good setting.

Guizzy

Our entire culture of modern art was revolutionised by Duchamp, or do you not pay any attention to the art world? Not only that, but at one time, didn't everyone think movies weren't art? Didn't everyone say that music wasn't an art? Not even a century ago everyone said photography wasn't an art. This wasn't even the "elite" group, as you put it, but the entirety of everyone, including the majority. How is it then that these "classical always has been a form of art, even back when it wasn't" be art now, but not back then? Is it not possible that your narrow view of what art is is just persecuting the current arts now?

All games are moving, ALL of them. The qualities that you're looking for a quite suspect, as you're ignoring everything else. Whether or not an experience is actually better is entirely subjective. Not only that, but the fact that you have to earn the experience in a game makes it not only unique in the art world, but in my opinion far superior. This is because you're not simply viewing the art, as the more traditional forms would have you do, but you're actually Living it. I feel sorry for you that this is too complicated a concept for you to grasp, what with all the buttons and what not.

Pezdispenser

RawSteelUT

internets.

SolFalling

RawSteelUT

games can be moving...rarely, and the quality of what you're getting is suspect, but ok fine. but does that change anything? the technical barriers towards creating games, the cost of buying games and consoles, the barriers towards playing games (intimidating controllers, complex rules and behaviours, learning the "language of games" etc), the fact that its so much easier and cheaper to get far better experiences (for now?) in other mediums, all add up to a state where games may not ever be as culturally relavent as other mediums.

baccardi84

Okay then mister, consider this:

Van Gogh never sold a painting while he was alive, and his contemporaries (including his brother, who was an art dealer) had zero faith in him. How is it then that he suddenly became famous and is one of the most celebrated artists of all time?

Da Vinci's "The Last Supper" painting is considered a technical flop for a piece, as it was made with oil paint on dry plaster. It flakes off uncontrollably. Most art historians say that the only thing going for it (other than Jesus and Da Vinci) is that it divided the room into four groups of three, with Jesus being the focal point. Simple math, nothing more.

Duchamp's urinal, which you called marginal, was not only instrumental in the feminist art movement, but was also considered the greatest work of art IN THE WORLD according to a panel of experts in 2004.

[edition.cnn.com]

Let us also ignore all of the other people in the world who have been moved by games, as clearly one guy who was moved a play when he was a kid automatically means that a game can't do it, even though it has.

Pezdispenser

Brackynews

sleeptastic

I see. It does make sense in that sense. I agree that it is much easier to be exposed to more relevant media than games. I think in that way the biggest thing holding back video games is the exposure people have to it. Too many people think video games is just for kids and as a consequence don't play it. In that way game companies are prompted to make more video games targeted at people who actually play them, which in turn causes people to think that video games are just for kids, which in turn prompts game companies to...it's a vicious cycle as I see it. Perhaps one day, people will realize there are games made for anyone and everyone, like endless ocean, but I guess maybe not either. Since reading a book, looking at art, or watching movies one can be trained to appreciate without much monetary investment. Games on the other hand require a large amount of monetary investment before you can begin to find games that you appreciate. Perhaps because of things like this the masses won't ever find cultural relevancy in video games, but I think for us individuals who see past these things there is potential for games to be culturally relevant.

NeoAkira

sammyDAsammon

"But movies can and have provided those same experiences (arguable better and with more depth) than CoD4 did. CoD4 stopped working for me when I realized the computer was just sending neverending waves until I moved past some checkpoint. WreckTheLaw concedes that the devs probably weren't intentionally putting in the messages that he was recieving, and that the target audience wouldn't find them either. What does that say about cultural relavence?"

Thank you for saying this. This is exactly the problem with gaming right now. The medium doesn't know what it is good at yet. We're still piggybacking on other art forms instead of trying to break away from them.

Wuth

sammyDAsammon

Zerbrecher

As it it right now, it seems that a lot of people are taking these critiques the wrong way, and we're getting way too touchy about the entire situation. Why are so many people taking this so personally? Especially when nobody is outright condemning video games in the first place. We're merely trying to figure out how to best legitimize our medium. Is that so wrong?

Wuth

Yes now to extend that further, when billions and billions of people around the world decide for themselves that they can find culturally relavency in videogames, then they will be culturally relavent the way other media is. There are many reasons why the author (and myself) believe that those billions won't come, and videogames will still be marginalized/ghettoized in the future, like comics. That doesn't mean there won't be a huge market, but it won't be a centerpiece in most discussions.

Also, I never really meant that you need to educate yourself some more if you think games are art/culturally relavent. But it's far easier being exposed, quantity and quality wise, to other media that are more relavant than games.

WreckTheLaw's comments are great. But movies can and have provided those same experiences (arguable better and with more depth) than CoD4 did. CoD4 stopped working for me when I realized the computer was just sending neverending waves until I moved past some checkpoint. WreckTheLaw concedes that the devs probably weren't intentionally putting in the messages that he was recieving, and that the target audience wouldn't find them either. What does that say about cultural relavence?

baccardi84

pikachumariachi

epionx111

I say fuck this guy, I'll stick to playing my games, reading my comics and listening to the Psychopathic music I love.

RawSteelUT

epionx111

I mean shoot rockstar got sued for hot coffee... SOMETHING YOU HAVE TO WORK PRETTY DAMN HARD TO EVEN GET TO INTENTIONALLY USE. I mean you don't "stumble" on it like say... mass effect, you have to deliberately do it.

i mean if they make the content any more mature, parents are gonna start complaining about games their kids aren't supposed to be playing to begin with. because well people have the stupid concept that video games are just for kids... I mean I was at bestbuy the other day watching a mom buy call of duty 4 for her two kids. I'm like dude... this rating system is useless.

epionx111

"As for the argument that you need to be taught when something is relevant, my point against that was the story about seeing something as an uneducated child and recognizing that ineffable "something"."

Exactly my point. Thank you for agreeing with me. I do not need to be told what contains that ineffable quality as I can determine it for myself (as per your story). So to tell me video games do not contain this quality in comparison to other forms of art is your opinion as I (personally) could find that ineffable quality more often in video games than other forms of art.

But then this might lead back to your argument that being "intellectual" and educating oneself with a plethora of paintings and movies that are deemed as containing that ineffable quality will render my view on artsy videogames jaded. But then this leads into your other argument that we do not need to be told what is relevant and contains these ineffable qualities since as kids we can find them in even the most trivial art forms.

If you think video games do not contain this ineffable quality, which you defined as being "what makes something culturally relavent", then I recommend you follow this link ([kotaku.com]) and read WreckTheLaw's comment about CoD4.

I hope I am understanding your argument correctly as I had to think it over for quite a bit before writing this rebuttal. If I am missing something clue me in.

NeoAkira

epionx111

fearing

fearing

I'm sure you could be, but the quality isn't the same. It's not worthwhile to look for that in a game when everyone else does it better. Games have their own qualities and should be accepted for them.

As for the argument that you need to be taught when something is relevant, my point against that was the story about seeing something as an uneducated child and recognizing that ineffable "something".

That ineffable "something" is what makes something culturally relavent. Games don't have it, and the author is betting that games never will. I'm betting the same.

baccardi84

drifter13

fearing

This is a tired topic that means nothing in the end.

angryoaf

I think what you're missing is that saying "X in cultural medium Y is greater than anything and everything in cultural medium Z" is a subjective argument. What makes the Mona Lisa or Starry Night better than a game like Shadow of Colossus? Is it that it takes someone of great artistic ability to make those paintings? Then it can also be said that it takes just as much programming ability as well as art direction to create a game like Shadow of Colossus. I think Pezdispenser's point was that what we consider "great" art or a "great" movie is something we've been taught to consider as having "great" qualities. We grow up being taught that "great" artists are Van Goh & Michaelangelo. We are told that Citizen Kane is a "great" movie. These are things we are told to be facts even though they are completely subjective by nature. I might think Shakespeare's plays suck dick, but who are you to tell me otherwise? Because "intellectuals" consider them great I should as well? is that what you're saying?

"If an "art" game really moved you, then you havnt been exposed to greater things."

So if I've studied art for 8 years and seen just about every "touching" movie ever made I can no longer be moved by an "art" video game, yes? Ok buddy, good luck with that argument.

NeoAkira

Let's not forget that there's other media that has grown BECAUSE of video games. Movies for example, have a lot of to thank games for. If it weren't for games, technology wouldn't advance as much as it has, and most of the special effects that we see in movies are in fact, thanks to games that pushed for that kind of effect to come.

But going back to intellectual growth, I don't want the gaming industry to grow too much in that direction. Games are made for fun, for people to escape reality and relax and maybe have some laughs, or get your adrenaline pumping, or hell,now days, even dancing or playing an instrument. I like the pace that gaming has. I think it's the people that're quick to place the blame on a video game because of an unfortunate, or tragic event, that have not grown much, if any.

Jehuty

You're mistaking marginal stuff (urinal against wall??) with what I'm talking about. Seems like I hit a nerve with you.

All these smart people wasting their time on games is kinda sad. Just accept games for what they are.

baccardi84

Witzbold

Sabre_Justice: Okay, no more long name.

I think what you are missing here, is that games and comics DO have pieces that move people. Just because you're soulless doesn't mean that everyone is. Take the best traditional arts and you'll realize people only like them because other people have already determined the value from the past, and they're just trying to present a faux intellectualism. If everyone would just stand up and state what we already know, that many of the games, even stretching back to the 1960's when the medium was born, are great for so-and-so reason, then everyone would agree with with us. If not immediately, then surely within the next few decades, alongside other great works such as that splatter of paint on canvas, that urinal leaning against the wall, or that bar of soap with the pubes on it.

Pezdispenser

Games don't have this equivalent. And for all the talk of "great" comics, they don't come close either. Take the *best* that traditional arts have to offer, and compare them to the best that comics or games have to offer, and you'll see the disparity that the author is trying to talk about.

The reason I think games will never come close, to be honest, is that the talent will never come. It's easier to write a book and shoot a film than it is to make a game. How does a great talent react when some engineer tells them, "sorry, we don't have enough memory for that"? The answer is: the great talents leave and do something that has less technical barriers, and has a chance of reaching a wider and more mature audience. That's how they see themselves making their mark on the world, not through making videogames.

baccardi84

KM91

I haven't read Watchmen. I did read From Hell and found it very well done, though.

mcderek3000

mcderek3000

It should be more then an exception.For "deep" stuff noone says that it should be something educational or enlightening - one of the real greatness of the medium is the possibility to be really not didascalic at all.

AGPym

kidnicky

mcderek3000

mcderek3000

And off the top of my head,I can only think of 4 comics that are well written,"Watchmen","Dark Knight Returns","Maus",and "I Will Destroy All The Civillised Planets." That doesn't validate the medium,especially since three of them were still about superheroes. And one I only listed as a joke.

kidnicky

Who cares about this. I don't play games to educate and enlighten myself, I play to have fun. "video games" are just that "games".

Gamers seem to always throw a hissy fit when someone says something less then positive about their hobby.

FtGF

I don't care about the hoped advent of the Citizen Kane of the videogames just to satisfy some old fashioned intellectual critic - let's go beyond it - what about something with the story of Silent Hill 2 but without the horror metaphors and more like a common life drama?
Where is a new World War 2 IP without the guns and rethoric of the "band of brothers saving the world" and more like this book:
[www.palgrave.com]

Now, if the first thing that a man did when started to develop some forms of human-computer interaction was playing, it doesn't mean that we should aim to do that and to have FUN as a priority forever.
Meaningful interaction should not mostly or only aimed to be about fun.
I mean, playing for fun is one kind of interaction, but there are countless of other possibilities and interactions that should be developed.

Should i say that going through Portal or Silent Hill 2 was fun? I don't know what it was, but it was not fun for sure, it was...i'd say..worth. Worth, it changed me.
That's what i would like more from a videogame.
That is not going to be a "game" as a priority, but a worth experience beyond fun, a complex one, an experience that can be a game or can be everything but a game. A video...experience.

One last thing:
There was once a contest to write subquests for S.T.A.L.K.E.R: Shadow Of Chernobyl when we still even didn't know about the final game contents.
Tons of people wrote Tom Clancy-like stuff, while 4 out of 200 wrote about the realistic tragedies of a nuclear disaster and the social dynamics that would realistically grow in the imaginary Zone territory.
Useless to say, which kind of materials were chosen to characterize and build the IP? Zombies and drooling mutants of course, like those people that loved so much talking about "the drop of sweat falling from the forehead of the soldier embracing his ak47 ready to fire".
So the awesome atmosphere matched the terrific radioactive landscape and the desolation recalled the tragedy, but the zombies and scifi events was everything that S.T.A.L.K.E.R. was able to offer inside it.

"Throw some zombies and an Aztec cult in it and it's perfect", right?

AGPym

One note that is not brought up in the arguement conerns the identity of games. Bear with me here, this is where we get philisophical. Let's take a work that has been spread across three mediums: Literature, Film, and Video Game. That work? Fight Club. Pahaulik's original novel was fantastic, and the movie remains one of my all-time favorites. The video game...eh...notsomuch. Now, would Fight Club still be considered literature if it was, say, a comic book? Or would it be considered film if it were, perhaps, presented as a Broadway drama (which might kick ass, now that I think about it). The answer to both questions is no. There is a clear and resounding distinction made about every form of art, and the tone and style it is delivered in, be it juvenile or campy, is part of the art. I present the arguement that a video game wouldn't be a video game without such a display. It might be something else, yes, and it might be something better, but a video game? Not in the classical sense of the word.

Cogito

PurpleMonkey

Here's the funny thing.
I live in France, a country where all culture is taken at face value, and all form of media are granted respect. Comics in France and other parts of Europe have grown up and broken out of that stunted emotionally retarded ghetto so many American and British comics seem to languor in.

Everyone reads comics in France, they're not seen as a kiddie or fanboy medium. This doesn't mean there isn't a place for great superhero comics, just as ther's a place for lone hero saves the galaxy type games, but there can be so so much more.

Why are people being defensive about this ?
If you truly loved games you'd realise that there is a place for criticism and introspection, especially if we want the medium to take its place amongst other critically acclaimed artforms.

Cruithne

Amiash

Every form of media has its own form of non-art and art. So do games and other forms of media.

Journey

And then you tie in the the fact that a lot of devs and publishers are so irresponsibly eager to make a buck that they take the quickest way out by giving misogynistic, violent 15-25 year old males juicy blowjobs with games that look like a combination of a crappy summer action movie and your stereotypical comic book.

Hell, you could make this type of big-seller and still try and make it interesting, innovative and mature, but who tries to do that nowadays?

Yeah, blockbuster summer flicks are crap and sell more than anything. Crap does sell. But the difference between your average art house flick and your average innovative video game is that the average artsy movie will still do well profit-wise if it's good. Artistic movies usually cost a lot less to make and do very well with decent ticket and DVD sales. On the flipside, absolute idiocy is so encouraged by most of this industry that it's rare for an innovative studio to even stay open in the face of frothing 13 year olds eager to play GTA and enjoy its rich, witty humor about buttsecks.

P-Flute

SFLegend

cocks

Evil Tortie's Mom

I think with Bioshock it had an interesting story, granted the last half of the game fell short I must say, also wasnt too amused with the gameplay mechanics, but the story was well done along with the recordings you find in the game.

COD4 has some strong messages too if you just sit back and think about it.

Granted with either game not everyone is going to see those messages but thats ok. Since as with anything not everyone is going to take something away from it after watching / playing through the game, or any other type of media.

I think MGS4 will keep its humor as always but the strong political message is already there since it takes on the privatizing of the military situation with the world today head on. Granted the privatizing of the military is something thats been around for ages, its just got brought more to light with some of the events thats happened over the years. Starting from Africa leading up into the Middle East. Anyways Ill stop here since the point of this post is not to start a discussion on the PMC situation anyways.

But you see what I mean about how MGS4 will have a pretty interesting political message. Im rather looking foward to see what the Japanese think about it, since the game is done through the eyes of Kojima and its rare that a developer in Japan actually seems to think of such issues which makes Kojima such an interesting character himself. Over here in Japan you rarely hear about stories on the PMC situation and such. War in general too is another topic thats skirted around also. If anything I am hoping he can bring a coherent and well thought out story to the general gaming public on the situation that will help people think a little bit more about part of the world that people are missing, perhaps even convince a few folks to do some research on the situation themselves. Since we know that many folks here have friends and family deployed overseas and the actions of those contractor firms and such do and can have direct relations to those on deployment now.

Anyways thats my take on why I think MGS4 should be rather interesting, and Im excited about the title in general.

Witzbold

Katorok

I would nominate this for Comment O' the Week, but I already forgot how. Sorry.

I'd like to see more truly grown-up games. And I'm tired of hearing all the "man-children" (LOL) complaining "This isn't a game, you can't shoot anything!!!" The human condition often doesn't involve killing anything.

Evil Tortie's Mom

Oh, and MSG4 will be awesome, but I'm curious what road it'll take. MGS1 and MGS2 are political thrillers (lots of plot turns), but MGS3 was more of a character-driven story with Old Snake, Eva and Boss. Ideally MGS4 will infuse the awesomeness of both and maintain the zangy humor I appreciate in MGS.

Which is why I dislike games becoming more like movies. I think games are on a good path to being funny, intelligent and amazing. Movies are intelligent, but they've left the fun of James Bond behind, or maybe it's just me.

Voteforme2020

Rohstafari

It does not mean the actual content of the game is mature in a sense beyond that.

Witzbold

Benjo

Witzbold

Dont get me wrong I like and own both games, but doing the whole > argument just does not hold water in this situation.

Witzbold

Natpalm

baz

Voteforme2020

EggmaniMN

gamadaya

floppylobster

BorutP

t0yrobo

I know I'm exagerating a bit here, but you know, I'm kind of glad about not being able to hear people commenting on how "Bran Training version 276509" is great. That would just make my ears bleed.

Back to the quotes, I completely agree with John Walker. But I think Steve Gaynor was jut bullshitting, I mean, having superheroes and unreal women is what every mainstream media does, hollywood actresses are chosen for their looks too. I'm not saying they're not good at acting. They are but they do not undergo surgery for fun. And love films are so unreal Gambit would seem misplaced if he sudenly appeared.

LaughingCrow

Roto13

The majority of books and movies, on the other hand, focus on drama. Sure, there are lots of action movies out there, but there are a lot MORE comedies, dramas, mysteries, thrillers, and so forth, that rely on character and internal conflict, instead of pure power fantasy. For every violent action film that gets released, there are ten non-violent films.

Quality of content aside, this is why movies, books, TV and music are viewed as being "legitimate" forms of entertainment: they address a broader range of topics about the human condition, and they do so in a manner that doesn't evoke the image of a three-year-old throwing a temper tantrum.

Remember: violence is considered juvenile, and while being juvenile isn't a bad thing, being TOO juvenile is. Currently, the gaming industry is too juvenile -- we focus too much on violent gameplay. Things are changing, but we do have to tread carefully, otherwise we WILL end up permanently living in the kiddie ghetto with comic books and no hope of moving on up.

ArmiMaan

Witzbold

On a side note of my own, I think there will always be more grown up games, but the problem is that they are usually overshadowed by the more "hip" titles that all the kids n shit dig. So eventually those well written titles for us older folks get either shoved somewhere where most people cant find it or not stocked at all due to low sales with the initial batch.

Its kind of why I enjoy the more "off" titles and such here in Japan, also back in the early days of PC gaming I think there were a lot of mature titles in terms of design and storytelling. Perhaps console gaming in general will be a harder market to make "grow up" in a sense just due to the larger demograph being younger folks which devs need to make up the insane costs of development by tapping that larger market.

At least though there are games recient games like Bioshock which have helped push the ideals that more mature games can be profitable also. As with anything I think it will still take a lot more time though.

But one thing for sure when our hobby grows up and such, I think thats when the media will finally leave us alone.

Witzbold

The same can be said of your average bookstore's fiction section, as well as the racks at your average movie store. I don't see what he's on about.

Koztah

No, they don't. Because they're too egotistical to realize that nobody cares what their viewpoint on the world is. They write, and suddenly that's the final verdict? i just can't picture someone reading this crap and saying "Oh, it all makes sense now, glad someone looked into this".

If anything, it's just someone who's never played games trying to make themselves feel better that they aren't in on something fun. Sure, everyone watches movies, plenty of people read books, but just because they've been around for tons of years, they're respected? I have no respect for modern Hollywood. The movies suck, they aren't usually new or entertaining. So because Games haven't had 100 years to turn into reused crap, that makes them lesser?

People should think before they write their articles. It just makes them sound more like douchbags when they spout out their thoughts using words that make them sound like they're upper class, mature, and from high society. Guess what? You're a so called "journalist" who uses your publication to make yourself feel better about NOT being trendy and into new stuff, because you still sit at home and watch VHS tapes with your mom every night.

Codexx

Wookiee1

kiigan

If anything the situation seemed better years ago when the industry was smaller and more dynamic - you'd get more left-field ideas made by guys who are adults themselves and who weren't under relentless commercial pressure to pander to - or dumb-down for - a specific audience.

Will I still be playing games when I'm 40+? Definitely, but unless we start seeing more games which are a bit more interesting, a bit less childish, I'll probably drift away from gaming a bit and be much more fussy about the titles I spend time with.

Right now, if I had to make a prediction I definitely think videogames will continue to suffer the same fate as comics and graphic novels in the west, remaining a primarily juvenile pursuit which, regardless of some notable attempts to break the mould and be more original and intelligent, ultimately fails to grow up at the same rate as its audience. It isn't just an age thing either - it's mainl