Now, that said, here is where it goes left... I have to admit, I'd much rather see a smokin' hot, well built female in a game. There is such a thing as being too fan-serviced, but I'll never be offended by the well endowed characters, lol. Ask my bf, I'm crazy about Sarah in Virtua Fighter, and there are a few other game girls I like. ;-)

@ geekgrrl- you have a problem with my jubblies?? I didn't mind him using the pic as an avatar, and it's noone's business but mine and his. Sorry if it offends you. As their proud bearer, if I'm not upset about it, why should anyone else be?

@ Shiryu- you're pretty much correct on this one. I've heard and read several comments about his avi. If it brings people to his writing, then I have zero problems with it. Besides, it doesn't show my face. ;-)

Menolly

BooDoo

It may have some relation to how every time you mention the things which you personally approve of you refer to them as 'Deep' or 'Subtle' or suggest they are inherently exceptional. Anything which you do not approve of is 'shallow' or a 'cop-out.' You make it sound like appealing to the base nature of the generally accepted man (or of woman's animus) is an easy, lazy shortcut- whereas appealing the the nature of the generally accepted woman (or of man's anima) is an incredible work of skill and craft.

Relevant to this discussion I am far more impressed by an action/thriller/'immature' film that manages to affect me than I am by a work designed solely to tug the heart strings doing so. It is as easy to elicit emotional reactions with certain triggers as it is to elicit libidinal or physical reactions with 'jubblies.'

While you acknowledge you aren't above escapism, you don't recognize your highly valued eroticism as qualifying- rather you continue to limit the term's use to things you consider shallow or trivial in that they appeal to base physical reactions instead of base emotional reactions. In my assessment, your highly erotic tales of courtship exotically set in either a time, culture, or both foreign from the one you live is as escapist as, say, having sex with big-titted witches.

The actual points you make 'on-topic' are scatter-shot throughout a laundry list of Asian cinema you think should be aimed towards. You mention exactly 3 games by name (by my count) and touch on them for two sentences a piece at most. You lay a base assumption to build your article on without at all exploring the particulars of that foundation, or if it's even legitimate.

I appreciate the effort that surely went into this article, but it's ill-suited for a gaming site as it doesn't seem to address them in a manner of familiarity. This reads like something a film/entertainment critic for Salon.com or similar would write- an outsider using their comfortable frame of reference and trying to shoehorn games into it without regard for their fundamental differences.

And to put this out there, I'm not someone who "like[s] to complain about the topics coming up"- I just think this is a poorly focused, self-indulgent article. Yes, I'm aware those adjectives may describe my response as well, but I don't have mine displayed on the main page and 'featured.'

Other issues I had with this article were already well raised by Cola82, deathbunny, and others. Also I see you complained in your own comments that you can't write an article long enough to convey your thoughts completely- and that is the real cop-out here.

BooDoo

Maggie is not against lowbrow sexuality or content, she just wants more diversity and interesting characters, females who have more interesting and engaging appeal than T and A in a chainmail thong. I think we all can agree with her on that.

Garro believes that sexiness is a culturally relative concept and that it itself doesn't represent a negative view of women. I think Garro and Maggie can agree on this? Different eroticism for different people. I could go off for hours on the symbolism of sex and the biological abstractions in courtship that lead to our cultural archetypes (even though these may be different in different cultures) but I don't think we need to do that. And it would take hours. (A chat room would be great though)

JustThisguy I'm not as sure of, actually. I do agree that fictional worlds mirror the cultures and values they come from, and that some negative or harmful portrayals while relative to that culture and not having the same impact on another, can and do exist. Where you draw these culture lines is hazy. Am I a different culture than a 13 year old girl building her sense of worth and identity in the world? Does she need to 'cowgirl up' to the world I'm comfortable in, or should I tone down my culture to her benefit? I don't think it's that simple. All art is always going to be a simplified abstraction along cultural biased views.

I don't think there's anything wrong with Ivy (depending on who you expose her to and under what context) and I'm sure a lot of thought and craft went into every aspect of her design. She is not an emotionally deep or complex character, but then most characters in those games represent vastly simplified exaggerations of male and female traits both positive and negative. I don't think Maggie would have a problem with her either, as long as she was not the ONLY type of character we see in the medium. I think we all want diversity here.

Ehardergardens

But if you ask for the sexyness without the characters being overly voluptuous in games. Then I would like to have sex scenes in games. Because if the characters act sexy (in video games or movies) and nothing more than that happens. It feels like one big tease. One big, I am sexy, I have the goods, you'll never see em or get them kind of deal. I'm just a lady here to drag you along.

Anyways like the article said. There does need to be a balance. I agree with that. But don't let it turn into a tease.

--Core--

Honestly with all the article titles I thought you were taking cracks at over the top fiction and calling it immature, more so when they delt with story quality. That cracks me up though (the fat chick comment), because you couldn't be more dead on with what to expect. I was always under the impression that you felt games were in a childish stage or something, and one glorious day they'd all rise above space marines, skimpy clothes, and super heroes to greater literary heights. However, I agree completely that it's not necessarily what's being produced (although I'd love to take a crack at people like David Jaffe), but peoples interpretation/reaction to video games - proponents and otherwise.

You have people on the radical outside calling us 'man teens' and 'child men,' then you have the people you deal with who spew the typical interent "this post is made of fail" crap. I'm no saint, I know I'm blunt to the point of being insulting and I regret how I handled the article you quoted (the previous one, with Wuth). You'll always get the usual crowd of people who appreciate a well written article, but seeing the College Humor add for "hot girls playing video games" makes me question the demograhpic at large here on Kotaku. That is, I think most of the people being pricks about things are just really young, but that's just a guess. In that respect, they really do need to grow up.

Wow, this turned out to be a really long, drawn out way of agreeing with each other, and I honestly feel a bit stupid. I can't think of anything else to argue with, because you've headed off every point... Thanks for responding.

Garro

Furthermore, pointing out a movie like In The Mood For Love is incredibly easy. You might as well say games need better music and point at Beethoven. Sure, the movie has some great scenes in it and there are incredibly bittersweet interactions between the characters, but as a few have said before me, that level of character driven story telling doesn't lend itself well to games.

Movies are entertaining because we like the characters and plot. Games are fun because we like the gameplay, and the characters and plot are there to put the gameplay into context. The games with really good story telling are the ones that do this the best. Character interactions that are incredibly subtle (such as the scene you describe in Red Sorghum) don't really do a very good job of putting gameplay into context.

If you want to describe what makes good character development, you don't even have to look at movies. There are plenty of games that do this well. Final Fantasy XII was one good example. You could also look at Half Life 2, or the Phoenix Wright games.

You also don't really seem to know who you're prescribing this to. Are you talking to game writers? Are you talking to character designers? Are you talking to game marketers? It seems to me that most character designers are as sick of the "sexy" inhumanly busty vixen as you are. The writers are probably doing as best a job they can under the circumstances, the marketers are trying to make sure the game makes money and everyone in between doesn't care. At best, it's just preaching to the choir. At worst, the whole thing seems to exhibit a gross ignorance of the way game development actually works.

Basically, I think that you yourself are guilty of taking the easy way out. At least in terms of trying to explain what you want from games.

RengoWrath

Typhus

Feel free to call me retarded (I deserve it) but when I watched the first Halo 3 trailer and saw Master Chief draw his gun on the Arbiter I was like "Sweet, there might be some conflict between the heroes. Maybe Chief is going to confront him about glassing Reach and killing every one of the brothers and sisters that he went through so much with." Needless to say I was sorely mistaken. Similarly, the Gears of War trailer with Mad World got me excited, thinking there would be some depth that would appeal to more than just the action junkie. Don't get me wrong, those games were both great mindless fun, but I was praying for more.

I know it seems like I've gone completely off topic, but I have a point besides fuck advertising. The big name games, the ones that sell, aren't going to be fixed by adding more clothes and sexual tension between the hero and heroine. Before studios attempt that I want to see richer characters with clever Joss Whedon-esque dialogue, and Dan Abnett style twists that I don't see coming. My point is that game narrative in general could benefit from overall depth, and sexual tension is just a very specific part of that, which I think will come natually if you focus on making your characters more real.

Typhus

I don't particularly care if people don't want something deeper out of their entertainment - plenty of people don't, and that's fine. I can respect that - I have plenty of things that are entertaining for the sake of entertainment; but I DO want something more out of my entertainment. I'm not deluded enough to think that my taste in any sort of medium is particularly popular or common - I'm not expecting companies to start catering to ME, but I do think having more options in general and a more nuanced approach to things like narrative and character design only helps all of us in the end.

On the issue of subtle (or not so subtle) sexual symbols, there's no doubt that a bound foot carried a whole host of erotic overtones that were not subtle in the least; the depictions of this stuff in, say, Jin ping mei are NOT subtle (it really does head into pornographic territory, though, so that's not a surprise). But there are ways to deal with even highly sexually charged symbols in a more nuanced manner (there is a giant body of literature written by men that mentions the issue of bound feet obliquely to attest to that in the particular case of Ming/Qing China) - people did it for centuries, people STILL manage to do it. Sex appeal is more than just physical attractiveness.

My tagline about the gaming community growing up was in reference to the fact that these discussions frequently devolve into name calling and nasty arguments that are pointless. Nothing quite like putting an essay out there and then having people go 'Oh, clearly we're dealing with a fat, bitter chick and that's why she doesn't like pixelated boobs - but we need to see a picture to make sure.' I'm not fat, I'm not bitter, and I don't mind pixelated cleavage - I just want things in addition to the stock portrayals that are currently out there & used the most. These are the best and most thoughtful responses, on the whole, that I've ever seen to one of my 3 essays on this subject. I'm a little gun shy after prior bad experiences, and I've seen these sort of discussions take a really nasty turn. That's not a problem with boobs, that's a problem with people - and yeah, I do think we need to grow up if the best response someone has to something they disagree with is to attempt to sling mud in a ridiculous manner. Maybe I've been spoiled by the shark infested yet genteel waters of academia.

Sure, there are plenty of more general things I'd like to see before getting to nuanced portrayals of sexuality, but it's one part of the whole issue with narrative design and character development. It was also requested I write on this subject in particular, so I did. :)

Maggie Greene

I completely agree that it'd be great to see more narrative or character driven games, but the demograhpic will definitely hold that back by some point or another. One of my friends literally said, "like if you put the game in and it went straight to gameplay, I'd be happy."

It's why I think things like The Darkness, Chronicles of Riddick, Indego Prophecy, and Dreamfall are underrated. I mean, there wasn't much sexual anything between Jenny or Jackie but damn i loved that story.

My problem is that (if i'm misinterpreting your words again, i'm really, REALLY sorrry) you've had this tone that a complex character driven erotic plot is more mature than blatant sexual appeal. I know that sounds dumb saying but it comes down to X is better than Y. I mean if you want more options, that's great, but the whole "will video games ever mature as a medium' tagline really irks me.

It's like, take that scene and replace it with an American version; you'd have a woman who bends over showing a bit ofclevage(instaed of her breats bewing squeezed) then standing up and smling, and everyone is up in arms about the immaturity of large breasts. A sexual symbol is still that, and I'm sure a graphic novel where the women had some petite feet might garner the same reaction in Imperial China -it's still a largely accepted sexual part of hte body, and I'd hardrly call it subtle.

This issue definitely leads to the greater problem of story in video games, but I think sexuality is way down the totem pole on places to start. No disprespect intendded. Just, I'd rathere dvelopers focus on a whole bunch of other things for starters rather than just mature eroticism.

Again, I'm sorry you have to clarify your points through repeated paragrahps, this would be much easier in real time.

Garro

My contention isn't that there are NO examples of sassy, smart, strong women who are also sexy - there aren't ENOUGH, and there's not enough variety. Characterization in general (men and women) blows. When I open my DVD cases or look at my bookshelf, it's a veritable cornucopia of options - do I want vapid entertainment, vapid entertainment with some deeper themes, or something really serious? Something in between? Blockbuster or indie fare? I've got all of those things in spades. I don't have to seek it out - the options are there. I want the same options for games and I don't want to have to desperately try and scratch out deeper meaning or fluff up ideas about what 'good' characterization means to do it. For me, this goes way beyond depictions of women's boobs and heads into territory about narrative design, quality, etc. I at least want the option of getting more out of my gaming experience.

Once again, I don't think overt sexuality makes something worse. That's never been my contention at any point when I've written these essays, and I've written several at this point - I like sexy stuff, too - I'm just looking for something more. I'm not asking for games to turn into an art house theatre; I'd be bored to death. I am asking for more options. I realize I'm way, way off the target demographic for video games in a number of respects, but I think there are plenty of people out there who want something more out of 95% of games than they're currently getting.

I'm glad people enjoy reading my Kotaku ramblings, but I have my day job to worry about - the one where they DO pay me to crank out 40 page publishable papers. ;) I may work on a more nuanced and longer essay this summer when I have the time; this is a subject I enjoy looking at and debating.

Maggie Greene

Garro

Erwin

Garro

Erwin

@Maggie Greene: Granted you've written a lot and it'd be 'above and beyond' your job decription to write more, but I'd enjoy reading it and I'm sure others would too. I mean, how many people do you have saying"good job" or "great read" at the end of one of your articles.

When I say "high brow" vs "low brow" I'm probably using it out of context. I mean high brow as in 'eilte' literate novels and the like vs "low brow" stuff as in comics and video games. High brow sex as in, thought out and complicated relationships as you describe vs low brow sex as in Ivy Valentine.

I think 'quality' is subjective because yeah, an intricate romance is harder to pull off, and more 'masterful', but I don't think that means crazy body proportions or bust sizes makes a story worse. Characters have sex appeal, but not all of them use it as a Femme Fatale would.

I guess if you agree that you can find meaning or quality in something that's considered 'pulpy', then there's not much to argue about. I'm curious, though how you feel towards characters like Liara, Ada Wong, or the whole Asari Consort deal in ME.

Garro

Well, at the very least, it'll be something. I have to put this phil. masters to use, after all.

JustThisGuy

Of course highbrow 'whatever' doesn't make something necessarily better - but why is more quality equated with highbrow? Red Sorghum depicts people that are as lowbrow as it gets - there's nothing highbrow about Gong Li's character getting hauled off to the middle of a field and 'seduced.'

I hate writing essays like this because they are necessarily reductionist in nature - I don't have the space to create a nuanced argument without having our readership bitch and whine about it being too long. Yes, this is far too generalist but I'm not hired to crank out 30 page academic arguments, and I doubt very much most people want to read that sort of stuff on Kotaku.

I don't think sex is necessarily sexist. Plenty of my favorite classical literature is racy and in some cases (eg, Jin ping mei) verges into totally pornographic territory complete with wild garden orgies and people doing things with binding cloths that never would've occurred to me. I'm OK with that - it takes all kinds to make up a rich medium. I'm not suggesting this stuff go away - it never will, because the vast, vast majority of people want their escapist media to have fun and not think anything beyond 'Gee, that was fun.' That's fine - we CAN have our cake and eat it, too. There is plenty of popular media going back a long, long, long time that is wildly entertaining on the surface but also has a deeper core.

Maggie Greene

Erwin

We probably disagree on a lot of things. I also think we're talking past each other. Let's leave it at that.

Here's a better question for you: what in the bloody nine hells is wrong with your keyboard?!

JustThisGuy

I'm not trying to argue or disagree, here. A long time ago I threw up my hands, scrawled "EVERYTHING IS ART" on a tiny piece of paper and cobbled together a linguistic and ontological philosophy that justified my position (to me, anyway). I was curious about your answer because that was the first time I've seen a specific number attributed to what might or might not be considered "art". Your answer was intriguing, regardless.

JustThisGuy

Garro

Culture is all relative, it's extremely relative. In anthropology you're not allowed to describe 'primitive cultures' as such or use the word 'tribe' because it's supposedly ddgrading. I mean some african tribes have their women actually awlk around naked, fuck if i know whether or not that means they're simly sex objects to them.

What i don't agree with is the notion that any or all 'sexiness' is purely sexist. I don't see the problem with appreciating th e female body, realistic or not, while at the same time appraisin ga character for their chvalues or personality. Take psylocke, fore xample. She is a 'babe; and I love how she looks. However, what attacts me to her the most is her rsolve. She faces a whole slew of just god awful scenarios and yet she's consistantly a strong character, and iu admire that. Is the fact that sheh fights in a swimsuit sexism? Does it detract from her other qualities?

Presenting a sexy woman just doesn't go hand in hand with objectifying them in my mind. I mean, if you take an axe commercial then yeah, that's pretty retardded, but when you have ccharacters like Helena , Ivy, and Psylocke who are incredibly sexy ANd have a lot of perswonality and this insane character dedpth, I dont see the auto "object" button.

IO juts see it as appreciating aesthetic beauty , nothing more or less. Childish people will definiltley go "hey, tiz, whooo" wand what havhe you but , I actually appreciate a person, fictional or otherwise, for the content of their character. Sex appeal isn't degrading in and of itself. WImmature people will always be that way, for all facets of fiction. I think people who can think, thouugbh, shouldnt be held back by othrs in tappreciting sexiness or beauty.

This keyboard is REALLY stick and REALLY laggy.

Garro

dead_red_eyes

Bye Bye! Remember to be nicer next time with your new account, and be sure to read the articles before posting a comment. Oh, and being respectful to others helps as well.

dead_red_eyes

Erwin

Erwin

JustThisGuy

JustThisGuy

zerokoolpsx

It's not a matter of what is and what isn't weird behavior that could be explained by perceived cultural differences. I'm going to try and condense a very complicated answer, so bear with me:

A fictional universe is created for consumption in the real universe by and for inhabitants of that universe. A creator could treat women in a denigrating manner in that fictional universe and justify it within that fictional universe's context; however, for all intents and purposes, the creator is still implicating denigrating treatment towards women in the real universe by perpetuating such a viewpoint. Whatever anyone else of said fictional universe might think or believe has no validity whatsoever because they are not real.

Example: let's say that Yuna dresses like a "whore" in FF-X2 (a contentious point, but bear with me). No one in Spira thinks she dresses like a whore; it's perfectly acceptable in that fictional universe. However, their opinions don't matter at all, especially if everyone (a generalization for the sake of example) in the real world thinks she dresses like a prostitute, therefore presenting and being emblematic of a generally degrading view of a woman as being nothing more than the skin she shows. Speaking broadly, the creator's intentions do not matter; speaking narrowly, no matter what particular sexual norms the creator might have intended for his fictional universe, they still ultimately must adhere to sexual norms in the real world, because those are the only norms the creator knows and for which he or she has an applicable body of praxis.

By necessity, cultural views of sexuality in a fictional world always reflect--whether intentionally or not--the cultural mores of the real world (or the culture it was created in), and must therefore be judged by those standards. The only time this might not apply is when a creator presents an inhuman view of sexuality (like sci-fi themed stuff that, say, details the mating process of a star) but even then the point is entirely arguable.

Simply put, fiction will always reflect reality, no matter how unbelievable it might seem. If a piece of fiction implies that all women are whores to a lot of people, then that piece of fiction is actually implying that all women are whores, no matter what the denizens of that fiction's universe might believe.

JustThisGuy

PsycheDiver

Erwin

Nobody is complaining directly about the fact that the characters aren't proportioned correctly; the problem lies in the fact that the proportions for the female characters, as well as the outfits they wear, are blatantly over-sexual, indicative of some obvious objectification of women. Nobody is objectifying males, and quite honestly, nobody has ever really had to worry about that.

UltimatePancakeSensation

@JustThisGuy: I'm not equating them, you're skewing my words. Yeah, every fictional thing has it's roots in reality because well, you can't say that something comes from nothing, and that goes for imagination. What I menat was, because these worlds are fictional, it's entirely possible for theh writers ro whomever to establish their own social norms for that universe. I mean jI could say that theres a plnet where women run arund naked all the time and and come up with a social/religious/politcfal reason for it. Weird behavror to us, but not in whatever crazyiness i just thought up. Cultural norms are so diffefrent between countries or eevn states and provinces, whose to say they have to be exctly the same in fiction? Yeah, it's sex appeal for a lot of people, but they aren't considered 'whores' in their own universe.

Sorry for the rampant mispelling.

Garro

Also, don't disparage The Lone Wolf. Though not blessed with the skills of 'the master of unlocking', he's still equally a badass.

Terry = Jill.

KeroseneClimax

Ehardergardens

Ehardergardens

Jill>Bogard

ggodo

@Garro: I actually read your entire comment, and I disagree with almost everything you said. There are entire reams of feminist texts that could elucidate my argument much better than I ever could (Beauvoir's Le Deuxième Sexe is a good start), so I won't bother except for one point: equating cultural norms in the real world to--ahem--"cultural norms" in fictional worlds is a tremendously flawed line of thinking. I will only state that all fictional worlds are a product of the culture that created them. I'm sure you're smart enough to figure out the rest.

JustThisGuy

The problem I have (as in the article I said this) is specifically with Arthouse films. I really don't want them anywhere near games, but that's just my tastes.

Garro

I wouldn't be so arrogant as to assume you were refering to my name calling, but I'm inclined to believe that's the case.

Anywayz...

I don't think you've played many games, or are looking deeply enough into them. I know, I used that argument on Wuth, but hey.

Ada Wong. Beautiful and elegant. No huge breats, no skimpy clothes, just a slender vixen who occasionally acts a little sexy whilst being a strong female character.

You're talking about one very specific character type. That is, a woman who uses subtle sexuality as a mainstay for her power. But, that alone will never equal a good story. I don't know what games you have been playing, or what your problems are with the ones you have played, but I see plenty of crazy character drama that makes me happy, big breasts or not.

Thing is, sexuality is still sexuality. What turns you on isn't going to be the same as what turns on a little boy, but how is one better than the other? Eroticism is just that, and whatever form it takes, high brow or low brow, it's still sex appeal, even if it's in the midst of a well crafted narrative.

Sexuality in a character is extremely contextual, especially in video games. The Chinese had a thing with feet right, but other countries didn't. So if differences in what's 'hot or not' can exist between nations, why not entirely ficitional unvierses? Yeah, what Payne, Rikku, and Yuna are wearing in FFX2 are tartish by our standards, but obviousley not so in Spira.

I don't get why tight clothes and big busts make a woman a sex fiend. Out of all the scantily clad women in video games, how many of them have actually used their 'sexual power' to any end? It's like buff men - there are plenty of guys with bulging muscles but not all of them are going to be noble heroic types.

Yeah, it's harder to create a subtle sexual moment, but again, it's all contextual. Sure, your version of a woman whose uses a subtle flare of sexuality to her own ends would fit right in with Imperial China, or any other form of high society, but wht about Christie from DOA 4? She used her sexuality to pose as a stripper in a club to assassinate someone, I'm sure a smiling Geisha wouldn't have the same opportunity.

I think it'd be creat for video games to take after films, because to me, a good story can exist across any type of media. Books, comics, movies, TV, video games, a good story will be a good story no matter it's presentation.

I disagree that high-end sexuality is synonymous with meaningful or well done character relationships. I'm gonna use an Anime reference, because that particular point spans all stories, not just games. In Gungrave, the relationship between Maria and Brandon was incredible, to me. He was a shy character, he was stoic in the extreme and there was never any sexual tension between him or Maria. That, however, didn't lessen the impact of Brandon losing Maria to Big Daddy because he had become a hitman. The fact that he killed for a job made him think he wasn't capable of loving Maria properly, and the scene where she begged him to talk was powerful - no amount of sexiness, subtle or otherwise, would have made that scene better. She cried and asked him to open up, but he wouldn't, because he couldn't bear to show her what he had 'become' so to speak. He's a complex character though because despite his cold manner, he's hell bent on protecting people he still loves. That romance was far more powerful than most sexual tension (to me).

Anyway, Mass Effect is a perfect example of a mature story that provides a character with subtle sexuality. The Asari consort was the ME version of a Geisha, and her demeanor pretty much nails the descriptions you provide. Granted, she wasn't a main character, but then again Liara was no whore. She was bashful, awkward, but ended up opening up to Shepeard sexually.

Saying that sexy females diminish the qualty of a story is like saying buff males do the same - the fact is, despite the 'our wayz are better than yourz' argument doesn't hold water. In previous posts I've analyzed (barely) scantily clad women who have complex characters. Making something overtly sexy isn't an easy way out of subtle sexuality, it's just a character choice.

When it comes down to it, sex is still sex, crafted with a subtle hand or draped in tight clothes. Cowboy Bebop's story has a scantily clad 'vixen,' but tell me that story is any worse than the Chinese films you've cited. Faye's sexuality fits her persona entirely, she does it to catch the dergs of society off guard to get a leg up in gambling and the like. I'm just sayin, both can exist equally. There's a place and a time for everything, like you said, but your narrow character description in no way makes a story "good."

Garro

Ehardergardens

lol boy have the times changed.

Dauragon C. Mikado

KeroseneClimax

I laughed constantly while playing the original Rumble Roses, and thought it hit a great tone with it's characters and setting. On the other hand the guy game and BMX xxx just seem childish to me and not even worth a laugh even if they had great gameplay. Maybe I'm just anti-west in my general tastes.
I think she's all for low brow humor just wants more options for highbrow and diversity.

Ehardergardens

That's why I love Kotaku. Nice piece Ms. Greene. Good read!

stranger

However the game industry is young, there are many more innovative experiences to come. Just a few generations back, they couldn't even show a married couple sleeping in the same bed on television, forget about nudity. Today there are commonly erotic themes in almost any movie or tv show, and they can make crude sexual jokes on the Family Guy. The game industry will get there at some point, its just a matter of time.

That said, I find it rather offensive how this article re-enforces the stereotype of all games featuring scadily clad women with huge breasts. Sure, they have those games. But they are the minority. I look at my collection of games, and for every DMC4 there are 4 or 5 other games without any sexuality at all. Did Gears of War even have a single female character in the game? What about a game like Rainbow Six Vegas? There was a female lead, but she was remarkibly unattractive, and no overt or even subtle sexual themes were used. Online shooters like Counter-Strike, Team Fortress 2, COD4, Battlefield, etc. don't even offer the option to play with female characters at all. What about sports titles like skate? Again, no sexual themes. Then theres racing games, like DiRT or Motorstorm. I don't remember any boobs there. Not to mention all the E-rated casual games that rarely feature any sort of sex themes.

Then theres a game like Half-Life 2 which features a realistic female lead, with somewhat of a love interest, but I rarely, if ever, have seen this mentioned within the context of sexuality in games. Although I've never played it, it appears that Uncharted is also similar in this respect. So yes, they are far and few between, but they do exist.

My point being, for every Rumble Rose:XX, there are probably 10 or 20 games that don't even have a single female character in them at all. Of the remaining titles, many of them feature female characters that are of comic-book proportions, but no more so than their male counterparts. Its a bit unfair to point to the unrealistic breast size of the female characters when the males characters are all steroid-pumping 6' 7" brutes with biceps larger than my thigh and a neck thicker than their face. But again, it is the sex appeal that intrigues us. Whether we claim to hate it or love it, there is just something about big jubbiles that resonates with the human psyche that makes the issue appear more prevalent then it actually is. Which is why there is some much talk these days about sex in games when, honestly, they haven't even scratched the surface yet.

Call it "low-brow" if you want, I call it entertainment.

cybereality

Anyway, Ms. Greene makes many valid points, and I agree with pretty much all of what she wrote. If anything, this reminded me that I need to go see some Wong Kar-wai films; one of my TA's already recommended them to our class. I'm a film major, by the way.

@Cogito: You seem to think that just because Greene argues for these subtleties, realistic characterizations, plot and character development, and a better representation of sexuality in games, that she wants all games to have these qualities. She never stated that we need to rid the market of the non-philosophical, action-driven games all together - they still have their place in the market and in people's hearts for exactly the reasons you mentioned. Besides, just as crazy, mindless action films continue to be made, I would expect to see more God of War games and the like.

Blah8

"No one's trying to take away fun. There's no danger of that happening..."

Except, there is a great deal of danger that this is precisely what will happen if too many people feel comfortable cracking down on games. The Comics Code may have saved comic books as a medium, but it strangled comics as an art for many decades. It is very important for people to understand that video games are not all mindless and low-brow, which is the suppressed premise of your whole piece.

"I'd just like a little MORE out of my games than I'm currently getting."

I can't decide if what you're really saying is "I'm playing the wrong games" or "There aren't enough of games like..." You need to clarify this. You keep referring us to the Chinese movies you so adore, and I keep telling you to go play Indigo Prophecy or some Japanese dating sims, and others have pointed to Mass Effect or KotOR or others; if you've responded to this point, I haven't seen it. Instead of pointing to movies and saying, "more games should be like this," you would provide more congruous criticism if you were to point to games and say, "more games should be like this."

"Again, I'm at a loss as to why more diversity would be a bad thing for anyone."

Diversity is good. First: I do not think you have offered a cogent argument for "more diversity," because the games you are crying for already exist, albeit in short supply. Second: diversity costs money. While classy romance movies are FAR less expensive to produce than explosion-packed action flicks, HD textures cost the same whether they're going on a high-class hooker or a Harrier. Most corporations only shell out for the Sure Thing(TM). So what you really need to do is encourage people to buy those games that accomplish what you'd like to see more often.

The problem with your entire approach is that you adopt a narrow, stereotyped view of "games" and then compare it with your rich, nuanced, and highly informed take on movies. In doing so, you perpetuate invalid overgeneralizations. Your post is not explicitly anti-game or anti-gamer; rather, it is insidious in its caricatured debasement of the genre and I think you can do better.

alaren

Games market like any for profit market trying to appeal to its perceived consumer base. In the West, I think the availability of games with subtlety in their treatment of relationships and sexuality that will be on par with Films and books will depend largely on the market viability and/or, as i said, the tools for making such works being available to those that don't have to focus as much on for profit development.

Ehardergardens

Maggie Greene

GregoriusH

UltimatePancakeSensation

You've obviously never played The Longest Journey. I still have a crush on April Ryan, even though she's a hideous (by current standards) mess of polygons.

JustThisGuy

And I think that is the problem - America hates sex - or at least that's the perception given through the mainstream media.

When Janet Jackson flashed her boob during the superbowl, the resulting outrage from the mainstream press was like she came out and did a crap on the American Flag, then shot the president.

To most Asian, European, and South American minds, it's simply a boob... big deal. All women have them, we've all seen them... *shrug*. There's certainly no people in those countries suing networks for showing boobs during sporting matches.

The same goes when it comes to discussing sex in mainstream film. The recent spate of baby movies (Juno, Waitress and Knocked Up) give only a passing nod to the idea of terminating the child. Abortion is still so taboo that it can't be properly discussed in mainstream cinema.

Contrast this with a film like Dumplings (Gaau ji), a film about eating fetuses - something like this could never come from the mind of an American without being a dramatised pro-life film. Yet Dumplings isn't anti-abortion in the slightest, but rather an indictment about the obsessive quest for youth.

As most games are developed by Western and moreover North American developers, and made mainly for an American audience, you're not going to see the representations of sex and sexuality that you're calling for until there is more diversity in not only the developers, but the audiences the games are aimed at.

Hopefully with China getting into gaming in a big way, with the increasing stability of South American societies, and smaller boutique gaming studios popping up across Europe, this will start to change over the next 10 years or so.

FunkyJ

again, in all seriousness, i'm intrigued: a man decrying the lack of subtle sexuality in games, with an overtly sexual avatar. how do those two things jibe?

geekgrrl

Like comics, videogames are far and few in between with people who truly have respect for the intelligence of their audience to present them with more than instant gratification. As a man who creates many female characters in my works, I try to respect the attractiveness of the characters I create by letting them captivate readers through simply being themselves rather than being some product of general consensus on sexuality. I've always found that true eroticism lies in subtlety, not the obvious. I'll take the Chun-Li's and Aya Brea's of gaming, over the Mai Shiranui's and Rachel's (Ninja Gaiden) any day.

If developers and gamers want their preferred medium to be taken seriously on the subject of sex, they should stop looking at American Pie as a reference of what's considered arousing. I'd like to write more, but I'll leave with this, and a thank you for such an inspiring article that hopefully many will take into consideration on future projects.

KeroseneClimax

Silverbackne

TheApprentice

Rebochan

JamieA

"I'm patiently waiting for the gaming vixen who knocks us dead in her first appearance, and not with her unrealistic proportions. She'll appear someday ... I hope."

She already has. Her name's Jade.

satlos

Brian Ashcraft

you can point to "cut scenes" all you like, and although those have their place in games, i have yet to watch a cut scene that didn't immediately feel somewhat disappear from my mind after the gameplay resumed. the cut scene feels like something else, not part of the game that i'm actually playing.

so, to me... its OBVIOUS this relationship, this emotion... it NEEDS to come during gameplay.

there are several reasons why this is so difficult. for one thing, the camera needs to be pretty far back so that the player can see where to go.. however that makes it hard to see subtle facial cues. especially YOUR player, considering you rarely see your face in a game (not necessarily a bad thing)..

holding a helpless girls hand in ico worked because YOU were helping her, and i think thats a sign of things to come in gaming. the emotion you feel to your horse in SotC is also powerful, because of many of the same reasons people ACTUALLY learn to love a horse.

there are HUGE differences to what works in movies and in games. so, yes, there are plenty of similarities.. however, its truly different, the same approaches DO NOT work.

the key is finding out what new ones DO. the idea of developing emotion BEFORE throwing sex-related activity into the mix IS important though. we need to get away from the 13 year old gamer idea. we gamers are the same people who enjoy complex and mature movies.. and i think there is a hugely untapped market of people who WANT mature intelligent games.

joelface

They way you pose it makes it seems like Samus is just showing all kinds of skin. I'm no Metroid superfan, but I'm pretty sure that she doesn't pull a Nikki Blows (fake DMC4 whore-girl).

[kotaku.com]

ChiltonGaines

Can you imagine a Metroid game with an actual mature story, with real human relationships?

vanderblade

I don't think that watch people have sex is only painfully uncomfortable when the circumstances make it such. For example, watching my parents have sex is painfully uncomfortable. However, I can think of instances where it wouldn't bother me nearly as much depending on the situation and how I was "viewing" (ie. being in the room at the time vs. hearing people having sex in another room).

In either case, this is something that is subjective so I don't expect anyone to agree with me as that's my opinion and I don't look down on others because they see and feel things differently. Maggie maybe portraying a stereotype but as videogames are a form of entertainment, it has to be entertaining in some way to some people. Therefore, just like movies, if you aren't into art-house style games, you don't have to play them.

jp182

Sadly, that seems to be the primary concern of most developers: money. Being businesses, I can't blame them, but you can still make a great deal of money by simply making an outstanding product, rather than simply tacking on all the cheap tricks.

There are many intelligent people who play video games. However, many developers, being interested in their finances more than the "art" of what they are creating, are aiming to sell to a target demographic: idiot males 18-35 who need everything to be explicitly spelled out for them. These people can't understand how a foot could be sexy. It reminds me of a snippet from Arrested Development, which I will no doubt slightly misquote:

Gob: "What is this I'm feeling? It's not happy, sad, or angry. It's like my heart is getting hard."

Michael: "Could it be love?"

Gob: "No, Michael, I know what an erection feels like."

Anyway, when trying to make money from the masses, you give them something they can relate to, and from the frame of reference of an intelligent person that can be adequately described as garbage.

The more I experience in this industry, the greater my respect for those proud developers and visionaries who actually try to make an amazing game instead of just a pocketful of money.

UltimatePancakeSensation

directhex

I study Republican era Chinese film - the Chinese film industry was pretty young by most standards when they hit the golden age of Chinese silent films (early '30s), yet they're still producing extremely serious, socially conscious works that are also damn entertaining. Those films were pitched to the masses on their sex appeal, their entertainment, their escapist value - but also were quite deep on a number of levels. Regardless of whether it made an impact on the average viewer, the subject matter and themes were there. Plenty of media manages to function on numerous levels, and you're welcome to ignore the 'deep parts' if you just want to see cleavage - why can't games offer the same?

No one's trying to take away fun. There's no danger of that happening; I'd just like a little MORE out of my games than I'm currently getting. Again, I'm at a loss as to why more diversity would be a bad thing for anyone.

Maggie Greene

If we had publishers/developers who established a standard of content, then we might see some progress in terms of maturity in games, but, as it is, the best way is the cheapest way, and that will cut into character developement and stylistic (i.e. erotic) design decisions. But, like I said, there are always those handful of titles that satisfy the craving for depth, but those never get a sexy headline.

boopadoo

It depends on the person and their mood though, too. I mean, for me, I don't get the idea of casual sex (maybe since I'm 15). I need to be in a relationship first. However, I don't think people who have it are godless heathens.

Escapism factors into how we should present sex in games, but we need more mature games out there.

This is the problem though. A movie that presents themes in a great way like a Wong-Kar Wai (forgot his name) film is great, but games are interactive. You can't really do that in a game, because the story is limited by how it will allow for gameplay (if you want the game to make sense). What I mean is, a game like that would be great, but for it to have such themes, how much of it would be able to be playable? It might just turn out to be another Indigo Prophecy (which I loved) that was more like an interactive movie.

SO because of that, I think games can only go so far. I mean, that's why there are so many genres of film, but only a few game genres. To Kill a Mockingbirs was great, and so was Six Degrees of Separation and The Outsiders, but how much of those movies (if any) would be playable if made into a game.

Though, to progress, I think game devs (ones who care about this topic) need to all get together, and talk to the ESRB. Or stop making games until they loosen up. I know those aren't really feasible, but that's the only thing I can think of.

I for one (again 15yo) would love to have more mature games, and things like that movie "In the Mood for Loce" sound like they would be on my favorites list (and I could certainly understand them) but I just don't see it happening anytime soon.

In conclusion (that's more than I write for my AP english class), thanks for the tremendous read, and I sincerely pray the industry can get to such a high point.

Fire Emblem is the balls.

ChiltonGaines

decodergrizzly

Which may be why folks like Maggie prefer idealized, non-sexy sexuality. The choices are to infantilize it, idealize it, or accept it for what it is. The best artistic portrayals accept it, but most "art-house" portrayals instead idealize sexuality while most mainstream portrayals infantilize it. This is as true of movies as it is of games. I maintain that Maggie is perpetuating flawed stereotypes.

alaren

@hahnchen: excellent points

rawg

jp182

What I took from this article was that she's making a case for some variety from what we see.

Now the only thing I would disagree with is the fact that none of what she is looking for exists. I thought Elena in Uncharted was more "real" than most female characters in games. Even though I must admit that she still played the Damsel in Distress enough that I found myself exclaiming, "OH COME ON! DON'T JUST STAND THERE YOU STUPID GIRL!"

jp182

I think you nailed it when you said "boobs are the easy way out. Overt sexuality is an easy way out" Couldn't agree more. While games have examined the moral and ethical variations of being a gun-toting badass to exhaustion, sex is merely used as a prop or gimmick.

That said, the gaming market is maturing and expanding from the "comic book" audience to the "cinema" audience in terms of storytelling sophistication. So, there's definitely a growing appetite for a different treatment of sexuality in games, one that explores other aspects of sexuality rather than the obvious, stereotypical ones.

BTW - Excellent selection of movies. Without question, Gong Li is one of the most dangerously sexy women in film today. Her performance in "Farewell My Concubine" was brilliant and the role she plays supports your thesis quite well. Definitely worth watching if you haven't seen it already. One of my favorites.

rawg

Video games as a medium is still relatively young, and what it is capable of, technically, is fast approaching a point where it will be capable of all the cinematic subtlety of film (rendering realistically believable and expressive actors). This isn't the only way to achieve this end though.
Film and literature have it easier in sexual and emotional subtlety due to their nature.
That is to say its very easy for even the average no-budget filmmaker to address subtlety in
character because they are capturing the actor, and the written form can focus as much as it wants on these aspects. In games, i.e. something with goals and (hopefully) compelling gameplay in the context of a story (not required) this becomes more difficult(though not impossible).
A passive medium like books/film tend to be better at straight storytelling(i.e. mandating the author's intentions and outcomes) Involving the audience as a free thinking dynamic actor, it becomes more difficult to balance and make satisfying(not impossible and certainly has been done). Text adventures actually had a greater potential of this, simply due to the fact that like books they didn't need to have any graphic representation and could rely on storytelling and the reader's imagination.

I don't think there is anything to worry about just yet. I think that the medium is just fine for its age and maturity. As the tools and resources for making compelling games become more widely available, and our demographic ages(hopefully maturing), as someone else pointed out, you will see the same gamut of styles and genres that books and film have with all their rich depth and scope. The medium s basically going through the same cycle that radio and film and comic books have.

So much more to say on this topic, not even scratching the surface really, but thanks for the article keep this up.

Ehardergardens

That typo couldn't have worked out more appropriately!!

waitinthecar

I do agree with one of your points though, and that is that deep and subtle sexuality is just another form of escapism. On the article itself, I'm supportive because increased diversity could only benefit the scope of this mediums audience. On the other hand, I'm a bit repulsed from immersing myself in fictions/constructions emphasizing subtle sexual interactions without having built up an empathetic base of experience, so I guess I couldn't say I would be able to personally appreciate development in that direction.

SolFalling

TakeoNinja

Homard

holysocks

Go play the director's cut of Indigo Prophecy. Sex is handled just fine in mature games where it is appropriate to the mood and tone of the game.

Furthermore, cleavage, nudity, giggling morons, etc. are sexy to some folks, and those folks happen to buy more games. The movies you're trotting out as examples of brilliant art? Yeah, they're not on the list of "best-selling movies of all-time" are they? Didn't think so.

This is a non-issue. They are not the majority and they certainly aren't bestsellers, but games exist that uphold the ideals you espouse. Play them, not the ones that offend your delicate sensibilities. Your soapbox/thesis is just perpetuating inaccurate gamer stereotypes.

alaren

If devs put the work in to do a properly sensitive, tasteful depiction (and some have definitely made strides in recent years) they will find that the audience that is mature enough to accept it is already there waiting.

Personally I don't give it a lot of thought when I'm playing - I usually don't play games for the story, but when I do, I just kind of take it as it presents itself as a whole rather than how they address each issue. Hopefully though now that more of the technical hurdles of graphics and gameplay are out of the way they can start focusing more on things like writing.

fuchikoma

I enjoy discussions like this, but the recurring premise of video game's immaturity is tired. Adults are making it. Roberta Williams did that goofy strip poker game ages ago. Leisure Suit Larry is an ancient franchise. It goes to a deep seated fact of human existence; as fun as games are, we'd rather be screwing.

What I'd *rather* see is a discussion of something like, say, the mostly naked super-human power fantasy from action games that harkens to Conan, and, frankly, the original Grecian Olympics. Is there parity? Should there be parity? Did you see *her* parity? I mean, *damn*.

deathbunny

Shiryu

peacefuloutrage

I think the real beauty of the films you discussed is that they display women in control of their sexuality; not one created and imposed on them by their society.

I also would have preferred more direct movie-game comparisons, though this is a minor complaint. I think I can reasonably assume that you hoped to leave room for your commenters to do so for the sake of discussion.

Thanks for giving us the opportunity to have this conversation.

Cola82

Shiryu

@jayntampa: now hang on a minute. you say sex for sex's sake in games often annoys you. why the cleavage avatar then? (i admit i've had a problem with that for some time.)

geekgrrl

All that needs to be said.

gamadaya

SSJPabs

darvos

Yet, in Fallen Angels we have the relationship between Leon Lai and Michelle Reis. You could go on, really. Happy Together as well, I guess.

I would be interested in seeing a Wong Kar-Wai type game, but it would be difficult since Wong hardly used scripts for his movies. Not sure if he used one for In The Mood and 2046.

Sorry for the long post. Most of it probably doesn't make a lick of sense, but I tried :)

GordieHoweHatTrick

Slint

I need to start watching some of these films. They sound pretty interesting.

Jason144

ashjaw

otakucode

The real barrier here is that there really isn't much of a viable 'indie' side of games to push large publishers to higher standards. The only games that get seen by most gamers are the ones on the shelf with publisher money backing them. If you only ever saw action 'blockbusters', and nobody could realisticly make independant films, I think we'd see cinema go through the same de-evolution that games are stuck in. It takes compairitivly little to cons