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TheLordRandom

cynopt

MXs219

el_rezzo

Just to clarify, based on a reaction to my post characterizing it as "nice flaming", it was not my intention to insult anyone. I really am psyched to see so many posts for, what in my opinion, is one of the best games ever.

I know from experience that a few of my fellow gamers played from the game from beginning to end, but had zero interest in the tape recorders other than finding them all for the achievement points.

And that's cool, too.

And I'm not implying that it's players who didn't explore the narrative that disliked the ending.

In fact, the narrative style's success caused the ending to seem extremely tacked on. It was the ONLY place in the entire game that used a non-interactive cut scene. So, of course it seemed out of place. And it tried to wrap up your characters whole life after Rapture in a few seconds.

On the other hand, I liked it for what it did do, however much better it could have been.

It had pathos, for god's sake. How many games even attempt any emotional connection?

The ending abruptly tried to provide closure to the whole little sister story line. But for me personally, it didn't ruin it.

Doctor88

Numero10

Plus, I wish there was more interaction with the Little Sisters. You should have been able to be-friend them and have them follow you (join your party) so you could roll with a posse of little sisters and sick them on any badguys via squad mechanics. That would have been cool.

cybereality

...Ryan himself explained that: he turned the vita-chamber in his office OFF...

Ah, yes, I had forgotten that. Great comment, btw.

doubtful

In other news... if he wrote that plot without even really trying, then wowies.

Spiffyness

Spiffyness

rdldr1

Altima NEO

Yeah. The confrontation with Fontaine could have been more challenging.

The cut scene at the end could have been ... uh ... longer?

So? ... It was still one of the most creative games I've ever played.

I wonder how many of those taking a negative view of the ending took the time to explore Levine's narrative. So much of it was contained in those tape decks. That and observation.

For me it was also the first example in a video game of a new kind of narrative - seen recently in the novel "The Road" and in the movie "Children of Men".

This new style of narrative doesn't "tell" you a story. It lets you participate in one. It's kind of like enjoying a murder mystery but you're the forensic investigator. The story is there. You just have to piece it together.

It thrilled me every time I got into a room and looked around and went something like "Hey! That's the f-king guy that led that chick on, got it on with her, then ratted her out to Ryan! He died right here in his office in a firefight, with a shotgun still in his hands!" or "That's the police commissioner's body hanging on that hook - next to the chick that tried to find a way to get to Ryan by sleeping with his mechanic. They f-ing killed the poor b*tch."

Then there was the whole crazy idea of introducing Ann Rand's concepts through this same passive narrative.

So, yes the end may have seemed a little out of place. But that BioShock succeeded on so many levels, for me, was an incredible accomplishment.

Just one of the most amazing games ever, IMO. A true work of art.

Oh. And thanks to all posting here for confirming my belief that gamers are more than mindless couch potatoes.

Doctor88

Firstly the use of Ryan's son is backup up times via audio diaries. It explains the players ability to use the bathyspheres, the vita-chambers, and also explains away the gameplay mechanic of the security systems (cameras/turrets) taking a second before the alarm goes off.

The plane crash, while ridiculous elaborate, keeps the player from know their identity and, more importantly, their purpose. If Ryan knew you were being sent to kill him, he'd send everything at you the moment you walked in.

Also, to the person that questioned why the splicers join you in the bad ending, its because the splicers don't join anyone. They are controlled by pheromones.

PreachingLlama

More importantly though I'm wondering about that DRM remover he promised months ago. I want this game permanently since I bought it with... permanent money. I also want it on my laptop but I don't want to burn an activation to do that. And really, he could do something that puts Portal to shame and if it has the same install restrictions, I'll simply watch it pass by and shrug because I'm not paying for it.

fuchikoma

I mean, OK, it's not fair to compare because its ending was just plain awesome, but Mass Effect's credit sequence left as much of an impact as the cut scenes before it, to me.

Demaar

natiahs

System Shock 2 and Bioshock aren't without their flaws. That doesn't mean they weren't fantastic games.

As for Fontaine's plan: Sure it was a long-shot; Fontaine rose to power on long-shots, in the mold of Dale Carnegie. Fontaine himself describes his Atlas persona as 'the longest con'. By the time the game starts, he's been Atlas for nearly two years. He hatched the 'Jack' plan prior to his 'death' in 1958. Rapture is a mess, but Ryan has his own private army of splicers and Big Daddies, having taken over Fontaine's operation and employing Suchong to finish the work (though the work ended up finishing HIM).

Why use an accelerated embryo? Because, as is mentioned in-game, the turrets, security drones and cameras all take a little longer to recognize him as an enemy because of his genetics and that the bathysphere system and vita chambers only work for Ryan, his immediate cronies and their relatives. Plus, he might also have been banking on Ryan's sympathy for his own progeny...which turned out to be his downfall. It's likely that only Jack could have deactivated the self-destruct mechanism, as well.

As for Ryan not surviving when they had the Vita-chambers...Ryan himself explained that: he turned the vita-chamber in his office OFF, because he didn't want to survive in a Rapture he didn't control. Seeing his own son turned into a puppet with no free will was the biggest insult Atlas could have delivered to Ryan, which may have been part of the point to Fontaine.

WizarDru

Either way, all the endings felt too little too late for all the effort you put into the game.

JAcK0R

Then, after that, we play "DOOM! Underwater!" for the next 3 hours or so, and yes, I agree whole heartedly, it felt dragged out. You find no new plasmids, weapons, nothing, and proceeds as follows, some more "find this to get past this", keep shooting, I said, keep shooting, are you still shooting? Kill a very large, gold tinted hooligan in a speedo, get a bunch of atom, that is totally useless, black or white ending.

Bando

Phenom88

If you really think the game's a 7.5 out of 10, you're totally out of touch with the gaming industry and I'm happy to see that you aren't reviewing anything I and numerous others care about.

FraGNeM

Voteforme2020

Do not think so, then again the whole was likely to be pretty much damaged to function on a global scale.

Ryan however does specific use it when he talks to the scientist on the Park area just before he gas her.

Also I think the "recreation area" was mostly done by the broadcasting system that likely also included the "radio" since you were cut off until you complete his "masterpiece".

Drakron

ThisCharmingMan

Atilla_the_Nun

The final boss was stupid, but what came up to that point was interesting, I thought. You're still, more or less, following orders even after you've broken free of Fontaine's mind control, and you start turning into a Big Daddy... Was it for your benefit or for Tenenbaum's? I still found it engaging...

leshrac55

He offered good acting, reasonable character development, and some interesting tidbits of back story, but the well developed narrative in the first half of the game quickly collapsed after Ryan died.

Critics would be merciless if a film or novel collapsed half way through. However, since BioShock had nice art design and good acting, gaming critics seemed willing to forgive these enormous flaws at the time they were doling out review scores.

Sparkamus

dowingba

Basscadet

No thanks!

EdwinJ85

Yes, were did you think the music come from?

Drakron

Mister Adequate

Russian Experiment

The magazine articles discussing the games groundbreaking yada yada a year or so before it's release had hints of many cool things that in the end seemed pointless or were removed before release.. A whole aspect of environmental manipulation your character was supposed to have was removed.

No multiplayer. No map editor. No real tension, just a regular corridor shooter with magic powers and nice scenery... it really is SS2s retarded, thieving little sister.. stealing from SS2 and Randian hoodoo does not an amazing 'original' make. 7.5 out of 10 if people were honest and hype didn't exist..

If you went into it with no expectations and never played SS2 you may well have been floored. That's fine. The game however is not the second coming or half as great as the hype machine or the 'he's a gaming icon' fawns may tell you..

This game is not perfect by a long shot. All those 10s got some splaining to do..

railskins

I just am amazed though by how much attention the game gets for it's story and for it's attack on objectivism. Both were done kind of poorly.

whiptcracker

crapsh00t

So let me get this straight. He spends a great many pre-release interviews talking about Bioshock's plot and how important it is. Then when his story turns out to be a bit of a mess, he (effectively) responds saying that it is shit because he didn't think anyone would care about the story, the characters, or the resolution of the mysteries built up over the course of the game. Does anyone buy that nonsense?

No one spends that much time and money making a game like Bioshock, that much effort building up the story, the characters, the world, and hyping it all up in the specialist press, and then just glibly assumes no one would care about it - with the implication being that if no one cares, you may as well make a bad job of it.

kiigan

..say manipulating someone close to Ryan into killing him (like the hooker).

Well, that's obvious. In video games, hookers don't kill people, people kill hookers. (I seem to remember there were several failed plans to get to Ryan discussed on various audio tapes, but I can't think of any specifics.) Didn't that stripper also meet an untimely demise at the hands of Ryan? That part made me cry. I hate it when good strippers die.

Granted, I agreed with you about the plane, and I agree it was a convoluted plan, but straight up attacks had failed to get to Ryan, and you have to admit Atlas had a flair for drama.

I'm sure he took some personal pride in setting up such an elaborate con. He was probably just bored and maybe a wee bit out of his mind.

I think this is just getting down to nitpicking. Granted, there are some holes there, and granted the story is somewhat convoluted (or interesting to some of us), but I thought overall it was well done and I loved the piecemeal presentation.

doubtful

Natpalm

dowingba

Strangelove

challen

He would still have access to the broadcasting system so having a radio or not would be pointless, only way to prevent that would being deaf.

And yes, the story sucked the moment they put "Ryan's son" into it, it would been far better to simply clean that up and Levine made that up, ending by "meeting with Ryan" would be FAR more anti-climatic with Fontaine still around.

Also I liked Fontaine since he pretty much pointed the issues with Rapture, he did not caused it to collapse as much push the issues that caused its collapse.

Drakron

BloodStainedVendetta

Well, I would've hoped your character would have been smart enough to...maybe throw away that radio you have?

Haha, that's funny. Maybe it was covered with super glue when he first picked it up? :)

doubtful

There's a lot that can go wrong with the plan laid out in Bioshock. Hell, it doesn't even technically work as Ryan was more a suicide anyhow since he learned the trigger words for the brainwashing (yet another flaw in the plan).

I'm not saying it needs to be a simple assasination plan, but it's just pretty hard to believe that the character they created for Atlus would think of something that has such a high risk for failure, and is more convoluted than nessicary, than say manipulating someone close to Ryan into killing him (like the hooker).

whiptcracker

dowingba

The idea that the player has a choice to harvest a little sister or save her wasn't a real choice and I found that to be weak design.

Overall, the only compelling aspect of Bioshock (to me) was the architecture and VFx. Everything else, from the unbelievable self-injection scene within the first 10 minutes of gameplay to the irritating splicers that plague the player 'till the end.

This game lacked focus, balance and any real sense of pay-off. That it has received so much attention and praise is quite beyond me.

Immutablyme

andpin

You know when Fontaine says "Will you kindly die?" or whatever? And then your heart slowly stops beating? Well, I would've hoped your character would have been smart enough to, after having figured out Fontaine had been controlling you this whole time with the words "would you kindly", maybe throw away that radio you have? Especially after the "would you kindly die" thing. If someone's voice could kill me, I'd sure as hell want to get rid of the radio he's talking to me with.

dowingba

Same here.

@Jnas:

A little.

dead_red_eyes

(Oh well...)

VicViper

weeoo

weeoo

I also don't see what's so prententious about a developer saying he fucked up the ending and didn't think anyone would notice. Just my two cents.

Unplugged68

That was the best idea they could think of?

I think the primary reason they used Ryan's offspring was because he couldn't die. Why do something yourself when you can send a genetically engineered invincible super soldier to do it for you?

doubtful

But I guess since they were just rehashing the story of System Shock 2, might as well include a twist like that as well.

reywing

H3G3M0N

TC

As it turns out, I didn't finish the game, because at the end it just got lame having to protect the Little Sister, and I got tired of it. It seemed like the ending was right around the corner, and yet I couldn't be bothered.

But additionally, if the game had ended with the encounter with Ryan, I would've been somewhat disappointed. I would've been left thinking, "That's it? That's all there is?" It would've felt too easy, uninteresting, and way too soon for me.

Xax

I'm not questioning brainwashing at all. I'm questioning the whole idea behind brainwashing a genetically manipulated son of Ryan in order to kill him instead of doing something like, you know, shooting him. Or shooting lightning bolts at him. It's so overly convoluted it sounds like something from a cheesy b-movie.

That was the best idea they could think of?

Not to mention all of the other small flaws of Rapture (like the Vitachamber problem you mentioned). Bioshock's story works on the surface, but if you think about it for more than 5 minutes it doesn't hold up.

whiptcracker

Hellcom

And while I admit I thought the BioShock was a breath of fresh air gameplay wise (compared to console games) it did feel like the ending was'nt really thought out.

SPOILER, SPOILER, SPOILER BELOW.

I really thought that having Fontaine as the final boss was very anti-climatic. You spend most of the game getting to know Ryan as the main enemy and then it shifts. I beleive it would'nt have been such a problem if the confrontation with Ryan had'nt have been so biult up and had come earlier so we could spend more time getting to know Fontaine as the new nemesis. That being said, as much as I disliked the ending as many others did. It is surprisingly one of the very few complaints I hear about BioShock and it really does'nt take away from the game itself, it just leaves a bitter taste in my mouth at the end of a fun and engrossing experience.

Sniper_Zegai

Jnas

Ah so the first half makes sense to me now, but still wonder about the girls. or actually, the german woman.. she knew the command too.

she could've easily commanded the protagonist not to kill them.. or to disobey atlas.... :\

relax_guy

Bioshock wasn't perfect but it made a good attempt at sophisticated story telling based on human themes. Personnally I found that there was enough in the last half to keep me satisfied. I liked that the entire tone and pace changed after Ryan.

Spoffoth

Also, whatever happened to the 10 minute long endings that made you feel like you actually accomplished something? Maybe we can find a happy medium between 1943's "Congratulations" and Xenosaga I's 40 minute long cutscenes...

EdgesRazor

Moonshadow101

The boss fight and 15 second ending movies that you got were so anticlimactic it was almost shocking. I couldn't believe that was it. It seriously felt like they just gave up, scribbled some shit down, and called it a day.

For all the pretentiousness that this guy has, you'd think he'd have more integrity for his vision than that.

KillerBee

I've consistently been impressed with Levine and also can't wait to hear his talk later this morning.

eleventeen

How about the plot hole where they make a clone, brainwash it, create a false identity, then send that clone outside of the facility, have him hijack a plan, crash it, hopes he survives the crash, then hopes he survives through Rapture's traps and mutants to kill one guy?

I didn't get that they made a clone. I was under the impression that they a stripper to seduce Ryan to make a baby in that down-home old-fashioned bow-chica-wa-wa way. Good times, plus it shows the human and flawed side of Ryan, despite his desire to be seen as perfect.

People can shoot lighting out of their fingers, and you're questioning brainwashing? Okay, here goes: the brainwashing technique was developed to turn regular men into Big Daddies. Atlas just co-opted it for another purpose. It makes what happens in the end of the game ironic, to say the least. Makes me feel like pushing a button for a bag of chips and all that.

The false identity was created to mask a death that didn't happen; already covered that.

I'll give you the plane crash. Not exactly the most efficient way of arriving when one wants to ensure survival, but damn if it wasn't dramatic. Certainly the protagonist wouldn't have any reason to suspect that someone would deliver him in that fashion, so if anything, it served to fool the weapon.

Atlas didn't hope the player would survive: Vitachambers. He can't die in Rapture. Which is why Ryan was chosen as the baby juice donor in the first place.* Atlas couldn't possibly know about the 100 point achievements for not using them, could he?

* This ultimately makes me wonder if we haven't seen the last of dear old Ryan.

doubtful

@werk

Billkwando

whiptcracker

I agree though that it did drag a little bit at the end, I didnt mind the final confrontation the games last boss, but I wish it got there a little quicker (from confronting ryan up to the final boss, that is).

Also I REALLLY wish they made a multiplayer mode for this game, they really could have done some creative things with all the plasmid weapons, they could have incorporated collecting Adam into a fun territories/zones game. Maybe even a take down the big daddy multiplayer game where a bunch of people go against one super big daddy (sorta like juggernaut from Halo). Lack of multiplayer was the reason I didnt think this game was a "perfect 10" like so many people and reviewers said.

ajefferism

How about the plot hole where they make a clone, brainwash it, create a false identity, then send that clone outside of the facility, have him hijack a plan, crash it, hopes he survives the crash, then hopes he survives through Rapture's traps and mutants to kill one guy?

I mean they're in a giant fishtank with weapons and enhanced abilities and that was plan the best assassination this intellegent con artist could think of?

The whole plot has more holes than my underwear after wearing it for a month straight.

whiptcracker

TrevWolf

Oh and no huge mutant ADAM enhanced boss fight either.

FoxHoundADAM

I actually stopped playing after the confrontation with Ryan. For me that was the climax of the game...

I'm glad Shakespeare didn't stop writing all of his plays at the climax.

I happen to enjoy resolution.

doubtful

unit

Yeah, except the mystery behind the main character's identity has so many flaws that it would also be a horrible end to the story.

whiptcracker

like "why fake the irish family" if i was just told to go kill ryan I would've, without question.. so the whole first chapter is kind of a plot hole.

The family was a fabrication to fool Ryan, not the protagonist. Ryan was under the impression that Fontaine was deceased. I doubt the player character could've just waltzed in minute one and confronted Ryan without gaining and mastering abilities along the way.

also, the radios.. can the people in contact with you hear eachother, and if that is the case, can they speak to eachother?

That is a very good question.

if they can, why didn't ryan say word 1 to atlas?

I doubt he'd have a whole lot to say to Atlas after the uprising he led against him.

Ryan: Hey Atlas
Atlas: What up, buddy?
Ryan: Hey, remember that whole uprising you led agianst me? We cool.
Atlas: Word.

or for that matter if Ryan ran the city on every level, he should've been aware that there was no irishman named atlas in his city.

Atlas' alter ego was a thorough con man. He surely forged all of the documents and bribed all of the right people so the records would indicate he existed. I doubt Ryan knew every inhabitant of the city intimately.

oh and if "atlas felt that I would need all the adam i could get.. why not just "would you kindly" force me to kill them.

I felt like it was all a test and preparation. You couldn't just walk in and confront Ryan without learning to use weapons and abilities you hadn't used before.

doubtful

Denouement, actually ;)

Koztah

If it hadn't been that way they would of said what the game is over already!

Get over yourselves. Ken did a great job with the game and the endings where awesome!

Unstop

I think a better ending would have been a choice for the player right after you break the conditioning: harvest the remaining little sisters in order to confront Atlas(final battle and "bad" ending) or save the remaining little sisters, which would get you the "good" ending, but allow Atlas to live and gain control of Rapture.

aka Bitter

baked ham

I disagree with Levine that the story ended when the mystery of the protagonist's identity was solved; he still had the human drive to seek revenge on those who wronged him.There was a need to complete the story; it just needed to be done better.

doubtful

"A man chooses, a slave obeys" would have been a great spot to begint he struggle against Fontaine, rather than waiting for Tenenbaum to help you (regardless of whether you've slayed tens of Little Sisters).

That would have given the option to end by siding with Ryan and Rapture's rebirth (by sparing his life), Tenebaum and the Little Sisters (by killing Ryan and saving them), Fontaine (willingly) (by killing Ryan, saving the Little Sisters, but killing Tenebaum), or Fontaine (unwillingly) (by killing Ryan and the Little Sisters).

I love Bioshock a little more even just imagining those possibilies. It's never too late with DLC, either.

Heliophage

The pacing of the plot iself kind of uneven, though. Killing Ryan and learning about your past was the climax of the story and it occurs about 2/3rds of the way through.

rluzinski

Gouki4u's avatar has a severe case of Jekyll and Hyde

There was no other way the game could have gone except to have had Atlas escape.

But, I'm sure Ryan's plans weren't exclusive to Rapture, we'll see in Bioshock 2.

lorderiks

like "why fake the irish family" if i was just told to go kill ryan I would've, without question.. so the whole first chapter is kind of a plot hole.

also, the radios.. can the people in contact with you hear eachother, and if that is the case, can they speak to eachother?

if they can, why didn't ryan say word 1 to atlas?

or for that matter if Ryan ran the city on every level, he should've been aware that there was no irishman named atlas in his city.

oh and if "atlas felt that I would need all the adam i could get.. why not just "would you kindly" force me to kill them.

relax_guy

thenino85

I think they could have done a better job setting up a sequel with an ingame cinematic or something.

wicko

Just an FYI.

MehGinla

baked ham

MrBionic

catapult37

ayn rand = and. ryan

ronnsprocket

JudgementOfCrom

the79gamer

I just wish System Shock 2 got a fraction of the same recognition as Bioshock. I mean, we've come a long way since then, but it really was a murderously hard and wonderful experience.

pylon_trooper

rkr215

NotAZombie

Manny

Gray665

...but System Shock 2 was! :D

pylon_trooper

I mean, sure the actual ending ending with the little sisters growing up, as in the ending cinematics, yeah, that sure did suck on ice.

But the game all got wrapped up quite nicely. It had a minute cinematic just to wrap up what happened to your guy. But the entire ending started from the moment you met Andrew Ryan. It was an interactive ending.

Setzer IIDX

It'd be great if for BioShock 2 they were to revise the playing mechanics as well as trying to give a broader spectrum of actions and consequences, the 100% goodie two shoes vs. 100% evil incarnate paths aren't fun anymore.

zoesch

get over yourself. Bioshock was ok but it wasn't that good.

Manny

Philonious

Love that man.

WaterMedia

El Patricko

MeanMF

rich8606

Bioshock's ending was the most anticlimactic ending they could have given a game with such a fantastically written story.

I felt like crying. Or breaking something.

HungryWolf AKA C of theCandSshow.com