OmegaVader

[colmsmyth.blogspot.com]

laterality

Paladin

I thought the game was brilliant; nearly perfect.

Paladin

Breakdown

fantasticfen

Also, Bioshock was great!

yango546

Hickeroar

Voteforme2020

Erwin

BTW, Stalin's anti-religious Communist Russia regime is estimated to have killed over 20 million people throughout its 30+ years.

ABigSmall

etchasketchist

But really playing through the game you realize that everything was fine in Rapture till Fontaine decided to try and take over. Ryan and his vision were intact till someone who wanted the power created a civil war inside the little bubble that is Rapture.

As for the killing, A. you realize through playing there is a reason for your actions. ("Would you kindly") B. It's a game..

It seems like 90% of the comments on here are from people who never experienced the game.

lorderiks

Everyone has flaws, even the "perfect" leader character of Andrew Ryan. To beleave that you can make the perfect man through science is haunting to me. To watch him fail and have his utopia fall around him was beautifull and highly...I dunno, Romantic?

Giant Enemy Crab

kyosuke9999

Since Objectivism bears a practicable morality, this is not impossible.

Forb

PurpleMonkey

Spiffyness

Mr.Garcia

gblock

jordo37

Bioshock Explained: The Horror of Randianism

vindicationism

bluerondo

The thing is there really are people who don't question themselves. Like Ann Rand, for example. Or most people in the Libertarian Party of the US. Or free market-fuckers. Or other authors of books about perfect societies. Properly questioning oneself is actually rather difficult, especially while maintaining a strong will. The whole world is filled with people who are unable, or at least have great difficulty criticizing their own views. The world is "Idealist", and one of my spare-time goals is making them realize why their "perfect system" doesn't work: it doesn't take into account basic flaws, or allow deviation outside of the perfect characters of their story.

The brilliance in building a better society is not just saying "how do I make it" but also "how do I break it". Then work out a way for the flaw to alleviate itself.

Akin

ZOMG!! I've got to dumb down........QUICK! Someone turn on FOX News!

HaXard

BELIE7ER

I am not sure what you are getting at. I like other ideas since I can not make up so many myself and being exposed to them enables me to put some critical thought into an idea. Taking a recent class on ethics was very nice as I did not realize how much previous thought was put into many different views.

I would say it is also popular to take a stand and not budge. I prefer taking some thought before acting.

datafox

That's 546 members comprising the 3 branches of our government. 545 of 'em profess some sort of religion.

(The one brave guy: Pete Stark (D-California))

Evil Tortie's Mom

Does anyone else find this quotation extremely ignorant especially coming from a supposed scholar?

TK423

BELIE7ER

Do you really think that people who *need* religion to give them direction would suddenly stand up and take responsibility for themselves? No. They would turn to other sources of things to give their will over to: politicians or corporations would be eager to enslave them.

Some people really don't want to think on their own. I know it's hard to believe, but some folks don't want the trouble and confusion it brings even if the end-result is enlightenment.

As for Bioshock being "teh best game ever!" I agree that the game, itself sucks; it's linear and you have no choices to make -- the only difference you can make is which ending movie they play for you, nothing else changes. However, the story it tells is fascinating. Turn on cheat codes and make yourself invulnerable. That's what I had to do to bring myself to finish it.

It is truly like reading a novel as opposed to the choose-your-own-adventure it is advertised as.

shoesncheese

sanskrit

Benstein

Evil Jim

Subconscious is so important to who we are, and it shatters my faith in a story when I don't see basic psychology applied to a character. It's funny, for all the flack Final Fantasy and Metal Gear get, their characters -- in their world -- are real and make perfect sense. Ryan is an impossible character, even in his own world. We're bound by our mind, and it's our master. The idea that he could be so convinced of himself that he wouldn't ask questions about his philosophy is absurd. If his will was so great, he would've asked it subconsciously.

This would have effected his character and would've created a shell of a man holding true to failed ideas, but he would've knew it, even if he represses. This repression would've caused him to act out in some way. Or he would've reformed reactions to convince himself or protect his ego. This would've made a master character.

I'll admit, I'm a character guy, the world comes second. This world (Rapture) was beautiful. The philosophy was great, and the atmosphere is second only to Silent Hill 2. But it fails on basic characters, what drives a storyline. Your would can be genius, your philosophy as intellectually and stimulating as the most profound, but it's wasted if the character's aren't matching. Characters>All.

@sauvage: That's just plain wrong on so many different levels. People will always avoid taking responsibility if they mentally have to. You too will avoid it and probably have and will probably continue to. Everyone does for the simple fact that we would hate ourselves if we took responsibility for everything.

Voteforme2020

I don't know how anyone could say something like this. Just consider how utterly unrepresented agnostics and atheists are in American public office.

Leviticus

BruzeWayne

As an aside, I'm going to STEER CLEAR of this religon debate. It's a shame that this thread is riddled with religous nonsense when there's much more to talk about regarding the actual piece Crecente wrote.

ThisCharmingMan

p_hon

I really would have to disagree with Levine's sentiment that atheists are distrusted in our society.

Perhaps my experience is skewed by my most frequented environments, a university campus & the internet, but in my experiences I see constant distrust of the religious from those who consider them to be "crazy", "ignorant", and "backwards". And a general feeling of superiority for those "intelligent" enough to be atheist. Its to the point where religious people I know are afraid to reveal their religious beliefs out of fear they would no longer be taken seriously. :-\

brent_w

p_hon

brent_w

The fact that the game allowed me to interact with smart AI (a la Halo) in a closed and disturbing, yet beautiful environment AND explore and take in a rich and smart world was just magic to me.

I'd push down this hallway with more love and attention paid to it than the whole of most games, taking in the art, the politics of the world, the propaganda, the stories strewn across the landscape. After taking in all the information the game gave me, after processing it, thinking about my own beliefs and how I feel about what's being presented, after having what I can only liken to a conversation with the game about the ideas it presents to me, I stumble across a Big Daddy and one of the most memorable encounters I've had in my 28 years of gaming.

I can't remember being introduced to games, as far back as I can remember, I had a Pong paddle or an Atari joystick in my hands. It's just a part of me, this hobby. Bioshock is just so smart, such a creation of love and devotion, and so good. Too often, our games with great stories lack in gameplay (Silent Hill, Lost Odyssey by Sakaguchi's own admission) or great games with laughable attempts at capturing more than our urge to make things explode. Bioshock hits every point so damned well...I've had it on loan to a buddy, but it's time I take it back and revisit Rapture.

Any entertainment experience that makes me look at the importance of religon to a man, at capitolism run wild, at the persuit of perfection left unchecked and question my own beliefs is a raging success in my mind. I'd love to stumble across Mr. Levine in New England some day and just shake the man's hand and thank him for this piece of software. It's the kind of game that makes you proud to shout to the world that you're a gamer. It's an important piece of work in the medium. It's bold, approachable, smart, relevant and it's never preachy. It gives us ample food for thought while still allowing those who aren't hungry to "blow shit up" and maybe accidently take in an idea or two along the way.

Great read on an outstanding game. Hurry up and port this guy to the PS3. There's no reason everyone shouldn't experience this title.

GorbyGipper

~Waz

Waz

I think the idea there is to discourage the automatic thinking that everyone HAS to be flawed. How many people use the ages old "Well, nobody's perfect?" to justify stupid, pointless behaviour? How many people use it as an excuse never to better themselves or grow as a person? Hell, we're all flawed - let's just go out for beer and pizza and leave it at that?

I see nothing wrong with a system that pushes people to make better decisions, a system where, if your own dumb and repetitive follies cause you some measure of loss, people aren't going to bail you out, because they refuse to acknowledge YOUR problems as any more important than their day to day needs (for example, providing welfare for those who don't take a moment to realize that they can't afford to bear and raise children).

People SHOULD have a problem with what I call enforced mediocrity. "Not everyone can be great, so we'll do our damnest to level the playing field so that no one feels left out." Those ideas are precisely why murderous and tyrannical religions exist. Average men would rather die (or kill) than to possibly think they're not, in some way, special. Think on the theme of "unconditional forgiveness" in religions like Christianity or Judaism. Average people NEED unconditional forgiveness from some grand character in the sky, otherwise they may just have to examine their screw-ups and take steps to improve them. And Heaven forbid THAT ever happen.

Bioautographical

PsycheDiver

Witz you speak the truth yet again. Thank god the one who wields the banhammer isn't a god botherer.

Communist_Gamer

DonFubar

Friend-O

1gunners4

oh good lord, here we go.

underground_slacker

underground_slacker

Illinois School Shooter Rehearsed for Massacre
on Counter-Strike Video Game

On Friday, Miami attorney Jack Thompson appeared at 10:15 am on the Fox News Channel to warn of the role of violent video games in numerous school shootings such as the one authored by Stephen Kazmierczak at Northern Illinois University, as well as Columbine and countless other such incidents.

Thompson specifically mentioned the ultra-violent first person shooter game Counter-Strike which was played obsessively by Robert Steinhaueser, the author of the worst school shooting in European history-at Erfurt, Germany-and by Cho of Virginia Tech, as reported by the Washington Post. You can see Thompson's specific reference to Counter-Strike on Fox yesterday morning in streaming video at www.gamepolitics.com.

Note that Thompson said to the Fox anchor that it was too early to know if Stephen Kazmierczak was into violent video games like Counter-Strike by saying "We'll see."

Well, now only the blind will not see, and by their choice.

The following is to be found presently on-line at the Northwest Herald at [www.nwherald.com]

From his two college roommates, as reported yesterday afternoon:

"Kazmierczak would often play the video game Counter Strike, a first-person shooting game, the roommates said, but they were quick to add that the game was nothing unusual for dormitory halls."

What is unusual is for school shooters not to have wittingly or unwittingly rehearsed themselves on these murder simulators. These games not only feed an appetite for violence but they are teach killing tactics and scenarios.

Yesterday afternoon at 3:55 pm, Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich opined on Fox News that "violent video games" figure in these massacres. He was right. Thompson was dead on right in identifying Counter-Strike as a likely training device.

Thompson wrote legislation passed unanimously and signed into law in Louisiana about these murder simulation games. A recent poll taken by the video game industry itself found that 65% of Americans want federal legislation to restrict the sale of these murder simulators. That percentage will grow after the Valentine's Day School Massacre.

Contact Jack Thompson for more information at 305-666-4366 and/or amendmentone@comcast.net.

++++++++++++++++++++++

Jack Thompson is a Miami attorney who has appeared on roughly 250 national and international television programs about the hazardous sale of violent video games. He has appeared on 60 Minutes twice, the Today Show eight times, and before state legislatures testifying as to this public safety hazard. He was recently profiled on ABC's Nightline, and he is the author of the internationally distributed Tyndale House book Out of Harm's Way about this problem. The publisher deleted from this book the chapter presenting a fictionalized account of a student who jumps onto the stage of a school auditorium and opens fire with a shotgun. The publisher said it was "too disturbing" and would alarm the public.

jackthompson

Actually, I think my example's more about the dangers of stupidity rather than of indecision. damn

ABigSmall

"Rand's characters aren't flawed because not everyone is, Brook says." I don't even know what to say... that's possibly even more nutty than creationism.

Luziphir

Couldn't disagree more. It is popular to be indecisive on everything in life because it is weak and easy. Or for fear of offending someone and the possible results.

To have an opinion you stand on takes character. And this is why most people let life run over them.

WaterMedia

WaterMedia

ABigSmall

@scarshapedstar:
And you ARE going to become a millionaire and get laid wasting time insulting people's philosophical views on the internet? Seems like there are better things you could be doing with your time Mr. Millionaire...

LucasKane

I think rand's works are flawed, her defense of selfishness is an awful read full of so many logical flaws it makes a person want to trash it.

datafox

Thats one reason to like this game, the theme behind it other than it being another bland FPS...

ZeonicFreak

I'm late (as always) to Kotaku's debates here, but Bioshock is more of a distortion of Ana Ryan's story. as compared to something like, "The Incredibles" Which is more of a promotion of it. It shows that a wonderful society becomes corrupt when they are faced with the 'unequaling force' such as plasmids or Adam. Or for Ana, Capitalism or Money.

huginn

OT79

tehFluffz

Crivens! I kicked meself in ma ain heid!

Koztah

I really with more game journalism like this existed. So much of it is strictly news/preview/review based, and most of it is also "LOLZ GAMZ IS FUN," which drives me up the wall after a while. Hopefully, as more mainstream games find depth, we'll see more work like this.

superberg

Erwin

Pantsman

Witzbold

D-Lish

Frank

I've got a message for all you pimply-faced 17-year-olds who think Atlas Shrugged is a life-changing book: you will never be millionaires.

Now go read Illuminatus! and get laid.

scarshapedstar

Which is the flaw of religion, its the creation of man therefore keeps evolving so the truth (original teaching) can be lost over time.

So is what people are following the actual teachings or not.

Then again faith in general is all subjective to the individual and what they believe anyways so that point at the same time does not really matter. Even more so when most folks who follow religion dont want to think of such a scary subject as to what I have just described above. Then again that is human nature in general, like with the news for example. People tend to enjoy the easily digested source of information to believe in rather than attempting to think for themselves. Its a statment on the general public, and of course does not apply to everyone as with any statement on any subject.

Witzbold

Erwin

oblivionatm

Who isn't flawed in some way? If this guy thinks that this world has flawless people walking around he's insane. Since the crux of what he's saying relies on this "flawed" statement, this guy is flawed and hence not very Rayn-dian.

davincij

OT79

You always seem to use the worst possible wording to try to get your ideas across. Seriously, put a bit more thought into what you write.

The statement still stands overall more conflict and strife has been caused due to religion overall in the history of mankind.

Witzbold

@Witzbold: You know. I'm rather confused. You insult me for my "stupid" comment, and then you say the same exact thing in this comment here.
All I said was, while religion has caused a lot of evil in the world, it's also caused some good. You yourself said that. I never said that it definitively was good or evil. I just said that it has its uses at times.
As a side note: Religion is just a catalyst. People who would do that stuff would do it regardless of "god" and church. They do it because they want to, religion is just the excuse. If it didn't exist, they would find a new exuse.

Post Post Script: I wish that was the stupidest thing I've ever said. And thanks to everyone who defended and attacked my comment, while providing a reasonable and intelligent debate.

Kirbytheslayer: In-Kirby XMB

PS
"Levine understands that not everyone wants to have a thoughtful experience when they play games, but he believes strongly in providing one for the people who do."

and this is why i now loves me some Levine.

TheIrishNinja

Touy

Also, you could make the argument that the only mistake Ryan made was abandoning his core beliefs in order to deal with Fontaine. Had he left it all alone, there's a good chance things would have worked out in one way or another.

But a huge problem that Ryan established that would seriously hamper a free market economy is that he artificially raised the barriers to entry for any newcomers to the market by building Rapture underwater. Obtaining new materials, trading with outside sources, etc. was made much more difficult. I find it hard to imagine that Ryan, as presented in the game, would have failed to see that obvious fact in going to build Rapture.

But any way, in the end I never hated Ryan and the game trying to force me to go after him really didn't work for me.

Huckleberry

SrslyGuise

D3Anon

I am interested though in hearing what you have to say were the "political commentaries and ethical thought inspiring scenarios" that you found in a GTA game though. Since it would be a first in a sense for someone to bring that up.

Witzbold

Of course, figuring that out takes a little... Oh, I don't know... objectivity?

DimensionWarped

OT79

StratfordX

hoos30

Even if its something as small as damning others becuase they do not follow the same beliefs as yourself is a good example of that. Which a high school religion teacher of mine used to do. He was one of those folks who damned anyone that didnt follow his beliefs and the word of what he interpreted the bible to be to hell pretty much. Im not kidding either. Then again he came from the bible belt area so it wasnt that suprising he had such strict views on the subject.

Where on the other hand we had an excellent religion teacher who suggested that the bible was just a way to help improve ones self with life and was not a means of forcing ones self to live a certian way. If you can come away with a proper use from what you have interpreted from the bible to use in your own life then that alone would have made Jesus happy. He was really more down to earth and wanted folks to just think more about their lives and how at times the bible can help lead others who may be a bit lost find their way once again then be able to continue on their own.

There is always a good and a bad with anything, but its unfortunate once again that the bad is what gets the most known and as always with religion you hold a mass amount of power and the saying power corrupts is very true. Which is why we have so many problems in the world once again with religion.

I personally have nothing against religion since many if my own family take solace in their beliefs which is great.

What does trouble me is when folks twist it for their own means, and use the belief / faith people put in the religion / leader to use in a negative manner.

Then again its human nature, and truthfully religion in general is a creation of man which is why its no suprise that overall there are so many problems in relation to it.

Witzbold

Erwin

Kotaku still manages to throw out some absolute gems from time to time and it is great along side all the MAXIMUM RISKY articles and gaming news, right through to random shit and real life issues.

This is why I keep coming back.

Like Kevin, I also enjoy the eatting from the buffet of life.

H2oGatesy

AlexDitto

Communist_Gamer

In what world is he living? The only thing I see is athiests everywhere making fun of anyone who expresses religious belief. Quite frankly the fad of proclaiming "I'm spiritual not religious" is obviously a way of trying to avoid the pidgeon hole they put you in when you say religon and don't laugh. Proclaiming pretty much any religon gets you pandered as a worshiper of Jerry Falwell. Someone who doesn't believe in the theory of evolution. Someone who hates homosexuals. Someone who would kill a baby if the Pope sneezed on one. It's almost as bad as being labeled conservative.

Wolfkin

Religion, in the right hands (for example, to follow what Jesus said properly) is great. Jesus said pay your taxes (render what is Caesar's what Caesar's), he threw the moneychangers tables over, and he told everyone to be equal. Socialist utopia here we come! Uh-oh. Every single republican red neck in America claims to be Christian...

So I say that money is the first evil. Although I treat Marx's words like gold, the opiate of the masses I can sometimes agree with, but if religion is taken properly (for example, Islam is a very socialistic religion, Judaism bans all profit making several times in the Torah) then it is not.

Religion is not something that will be removed. It cannot be proved nor disproved. So for now leave it be. Sort out the problem of money, cast out the selfishness of objectivism and other right wing ideologies and embrace egalitarianism.

Communist_Gamer

oblivionatm

Erwin

When I say anarcho-capitalist in Bioshock, I am referring to ammo dispensers on the street, and not the obvious dictator which goes against anarcho-capitalism.

Again, it seems weird I'm discussing this on Kotaku... viva la revolucion :P

Communist_Gamer

But I think Bioshock is a very crude, but nevertheless hands on way of discovered what an anarcho-capitalist or at least laissez faire capitalist society would be like.

Communist_Gamer

My original statements still stand as is.

Witzbold

Sparkamus

Erwin

Toasticus

My criticism would fall short even if I tried because after all, I'm not the one with a degree(yet) nor do I have anything published(yet), let alone the editor to a highly successful blog/gaming news site....I'm going to go have some humble pie, good sir.

Carry on with the religion debate-pie is better.

vorlik

WhoreofSpamylon

"Taking back to the statement of history once again we can see that a major cause of conflicts in the history of the world are due to differences in belief. Things now days have become a bit more complicated but still the underlying fact that religions is what is fueling the ongoing resent towards one another is still there."

Thanks for the refreshing, original insight!

WhoreofSpamylon

Witzbold

Erwin

RedFive

*Father ColdCuts pokes his head out of a passing cloud*

True, but when you get down to the level at which they are at to counter their comment it only makes you as bad as them, but I like your follow up. It just shows the greatness of the WHITZBOLD!!!!

AMEN BROTHER!

*Father Cold Cut's head retracts behind the cover of the gaseous white mass (cloud)*

GOD

Please. "Greed is good" is a self-serving, egomaniacal mantra used to legitimize avarice. Of course greed is bad. Have you ever opened up a fucking dictionary?

"Intense and selfish desire for something, especially wealth, power, or food"

Wanting to be successful is one thing. There's nothing wrong with that. But greed invariably leads to taking or keeping things from others. It's about feeling superior while being shallow.

I mean, honestly, how often do you walk into a fast food restaurant and admire the gluttons? "Man, look at those grease stains. I bet he's a winner." It's no different.

superberg

oblivionatm

You want to start a smart discussion, Ill play ball. You act stupid Ill call you stupid. Its that simple and thats how I roll.

Witzbold

I'm sure that if you took away religion we would find something else to fight over, then we would be blaming all the worlds problems on that instead of religion.

Just think of a world where if you had a Wii instead of a 360 you were frowned upon! ha ha.

The harder thing to think about is a world where someone owns a wii instead of a 360 and everyone is cool with that, and we enjoy the fact that the wii player can find joy in playing the Wii just as much as the 360 owner.

Peace out! Amen!

*Father ColdCuts ascends into the sky where he is at peace"

GOD

Erwin

If that's so, sign me up for being "culturally inferior". As far as "culture" and "religion" are concerned, the gullibles can keep it.

mariospants

Erwin

The French Revolution
World War I
World War II
The Iraq War
The Vietnam War
The Spanish Civil War
The War of the Roses
The American Civil War
The Peloponnesian War
The Roman-Persian Wars

Toasticus

fearing

aaa

Brian Crecente

Erwin

Its a poorly written statement with no real reason or thought put behind it. Therefore Im not going to bother explaining what the mass amount of flaws backed up by LOTS of historical data that can be easily found by anyone whos willing to take the time to do a little thought check into their own comments before even posting it.

@Toasticus: Taking back to the statement of history once again we can see that a major cause of conflicts in the history of the world are due to differences in belief. Things now days have become a bit more complicated but still the underlying fact that religions is what is fueling the ongoing resent towards one another is still there.

---

Overall if one is going to make such a bold statement they better have put some serious information backing that, since anyone can make such a simple thoughtless comment without any backing.

Witzbold

GOD

oblivionatm

GOD

On another note, as a long time reader and lurker here at Kotaku, as well as someone who enjoys Kirby's comments, I have to say I'm disappointed by his religion remark.

vorlik

Toasticus

baked ham

aaa

baked ham

Erwin

ceptri

ceptri

Erwin

Duoae

Witzbold

Witzbold

Erwin

Erwin

Brian Crecente

houkah

That said, my sentiments are "Thanks Crecente, great job."

vorlik

dv8godd

Im not even going to bother explaining why. Theres just WAY too many examples to shoot that "theory" of yours down.

Witzbold

Augustus

Erwin

aaa

Personally, I found the Marathon games to be quite rich in philosophy, but they suffered the same fate as Bioshock and offered no choices at all (which may emphasize its nihilist motif).

SrslyGuise