A game maker's test is not showing as little skin as possible, though they have to choice to take that route---it's to balance the skin/sex/etc. with gameplay and story telling so that the skin/sex/etc. doesn't stick out too much. Mass Effect would be a good example of this. FFX-2 would not.

Ninja-Z

Can you compare the evolustion of books and to hollywood? I'm pretty sure books didn't evolve with short stories. Are the novels we see today the result of Arthouse novels from the Renesiance? Because the poster child for writing, Shakespeare, was on the 'mainstream' side of things. Point being, every medium is different, and one's path isn't necessarily going to be the others.
What I don't get is why you demand to see something that is 'more' than what we see today. Prebubescent? You haven't given one solid example of what you're talking about. I questioned your integrity as a gamer because if everything you see isn't 'for' 20-30 year olds, then you must have a limited range of games or you just aren't looking into them deeply enough.

Why do you need some crazy new way of storytelling for games to be worht something? For them to have meaning? Metal Gear Solid, Soul Calibur, Turok, Devil May Cry, Gungrave, and many many, many more. They all had something worthwhile about them. If you're so 'evolved in your tastes' then go somewhere else for what you desire. My tastes are perfectly suited to what I see in video games. I don't say, go to the music industry and start demanding this or that.

So what if Arthouse films were integral to the success of Hollywood? Is the video game industrey failing? All the numbers show that it's on the up and up. Games don't need a group of rogue radicals who make something like video games for Sundance Film festival; all that crap is utter nonsense. If you want games to be some blatantly existential journey that explores the human condition with ambiguous and nonsensical mechanics, then go sit with your films.

My problem is that you think video games NEED to have that, or that Arthouse is somehow better than what you're getting. If you can't find meaning or value in the games you've played so far, you're a very shallow person and it's no wonder you need 'depth' to be spoon-fed to you by nonsensical short films. Why don't you try looking for something in games that you label as 'prepubescent?' Go analyze the characters in Soul Calibur or Dead or Alive (Typhus has, and I touched lightly on Ivy), if you can. But oh hey, titz is huge, no value, no value.

If you want to complain about me insulting you, why don't you look at how you insulted the entire industry with your ignorant and disrespectful ramblings before you talk? If what the industry is today isn't for you, or your 'evolved tastes,' then fine, but why tell us that your preferences are better?

You've decried games as a whole as being immature, and that's part of the problem games have. Not that they're for kids, but people like you refuse to see the value in a good story when it has violence or sexiness. I'd take Devil May Cry over any Arthouse film any day of the week. Not just for the action, but because that has more meaning in a single cutscene then someone who thinks that cutting out endings is 'deep.' Ammateure, artsy, shorts are nothing more than some failed attempt to outdo traditional storytelling. They take insane steps to be 'more' than the 'beginning, middle, end' format. Sure, maybe if I stared at something and pondered, 'why am I watching this? why was this made," I could come up with some obscure message, but that is WAY less pertinent to life in general, then looking at Virgil. Virgil is about to unlock the gate to hell because he wants power, power to protect. That tragic character flaw will teach me something more personal, impactful, and practical then any single arthouse film.

Garro

Face it, sexuality is more than just sex, it's about a person's confidence. A person whose confident in how they look won't exactly dress conservatively... it's just the developers that will be lazy when it comes to giving a buxom redhead more than a thong in sub zero weather :p

WFROSE_Ex_Alpha

DarrenKanno

PlaidNinja

XD Was a woman.

Wuth

The Boss was a great character- but her sexuality was, at times, quite ambiguous. At least personality wise... I don't think there was ever any doubt that the Boss wasn't a woman.

Wuth

Ok, so now I have to defend my integrity as a gamer? Look, take my word for it when I say I'm a long time gamer. I'm not going to start dropping names, but I've played almost every medium to high profile game in the last year alone.

Look, it's ok liking those games. It's ok seeing the next blockbuster action film. It's ok to play halo simply because you want to shoot at and compete with other players. But here's the problem: The market is absolutely flooded with these games. At this point, it seems like every single game is being directed at teenage, pubescent males and not the 18-30 category mentioned earlier. And another problem, you fail to see what artistic games can do for you.

Hollywood would not exist in its current form today if it weren't for those art house flicks. The multi-layered narrative, for example, was not developed in Hollywood til much later in its lifecycle. And even then, it was the art house narratives that made the format so popular.

Or from a cinematography stand point: Most early films used long, static shots to tell stories. It wasn't until much later that editing formed much more complicated paterns for storytelling. That being said, this took a long time.

Video games have been around for 20-30 years and have not been given the proper amount of time to grow. The most important breakthrough for games was 3D, but since then developers have been copy and pasting game design for the past ten years. Not to mention falling back on ancient conventions.

But then again, why even argue my point if you're just going to be insulting, Garro? Look, I'll just say that I like Halo 3 about as much as any other average gamer, I've played all the so called "art house" games, and I dabble in my own game design as well. I'd just like something more from my video games. My tastes have evolved, and I'm sick of games not being taken seriously, especially when they have so much damn potential.

Wuth

YUYU

It seems the underlying criticism about female sexuality in video games is that it equates being sexy with being "easy." That usually translates into skimpy outfits and submissive personalities. I'm not complaining. I enjoy eye candy as much as the next guy.

However, I for one would also like to see more female characters who are sexy under sunjammer's definition: dangerous, unpredictable, seductive and aware of their sexual power over men.

IMO, the MGS series has done a pretty good job of covering the spectrum when it comes to sexy women, a flirty Mei Ling, a deceitful Naomi Hunter, a tragic Sniper Wolf and then of course there's The Boss. She's hot.

rawg

Dwarf females in WoW are the perfect example of a 'plain' looking chick and...almost no one plays Dwarf females, even the females playing the game. The ones that you do find playing them, however, seem to be really skilled, but whatever..that's for another conversation.

My biggest beef with oversexing video game characters is that it kind of validates the notion that video games are for nerd arrested development cases and pimply teenages (often one in the same). Call me crazy, but, having been of the generation that saw the initial rise of home consoles, I want what I've played for so damn long to be taken just a little bit more seriously as an art form, and not derided as much.

One can't achieve this (at least in this country) when so many of the heroines ready for battle are wearing less clothing than the typical strippers I give half my paycheck to.

Well maybe not that little, but you get the point.

Video Games are still huge business though regardless, so I figure they have to be hitting the marketing angle on the head. They have to know the market well enough, or they'd take the aesthetics in a different direction.

That says something about who consumes video games, doesn't it?

Phunk

Wilkes

Why? Go play uncharted. Go ahead, i'll wait.

Done? Now look at the main hero and heroine. I think naughty dog nailed them, without having to use sterotypes.

Nathan is well, he's an average go. his fit, a bit sloppyly dressed, and is far from a superman. Elana is attractive without looking like a bimbo sexgoddess with an DD cup. Shes strong willed, and can handle herself in a fight.

Another good example of a non-bombo sexy female was Quistis in FF8. She was covered head to toe for the most part, yet was still attractive, and intellegent.

Still another would be Ada Wong in Resisdent Evil 2/4.

So these types of characters are out there, it's just they don't garner as much press.

mrantimatter

But it can definitely go both ways...the balance is delicate, as games like the aforementioned X-2 demonstrate.

Norellicus

Anyway, addressing the topic of the article - why can't the women in my games be sexy/good looking? I like the guys I play as to be handsome. I don't want my character to look like some shmuck who works at Starbucks. Sexy does not equate weak/stupid/immature. For example, I just bought DMC4 and both the guys and gals in that are hot. I don't respect the characters less because Lady shows some cleavage or cause Dante goes into battle shirtless. Just about every character in the Metal Gear series is attractive. Snake's got rugged good looks and Sniper Wolf's a babe. Hell, even Raiden's... pretty. Do I take the story/characters less seriously because the characters aren't plain or homely? Hell no.

A game can have sex appeal and be mature. And enough with the Dead or Alive / Soul Calibur bashing. So what if the artists want to exaggerate the female's figures? What part of those games aren't exaggerated? Everyone of those moves should be a killing blow, and have you seen the size of Siegfried's sword?! If an outsider can't see past the sexy outfits, who cares? You can take away as much as YOU want from the characters regardless of what people think. I think Bayman's an awesome character from DOA. In 4, when Helena's trying to hire him to take out Donavan and he says something like 'The price is right, but it takes more then money to motivate people, show me the strength of your resolve.' and challenges her to a fight. That's not something every assassin would do and I thought it was awesome. Garro was already talking about Ivy from Soul Calibur and what he's taken from the character. And don't get me started on Siegfried - such a wonderful, tragic character.

Anyway I don't think the problem is that games with 'sexy' women like DOA are immature, I think that people aren't mature enough to see past the quirks and find the depth that's there. I had a friend who I tried showing anime to once and I was disappointed he was the type of person who couldn't get past the art ('wtf huge eyes!'). That's fine if games with a certain style aren't for you, but don't decry others as immature for enjoying them. And finally - I like how people are so quick to ridicule games with sex appeal and then turn around and praise games like Shadow of the Colossus. Don't get me wrong, beautiful game, but absolutely no character. I felt no connection to Wander and the only thing clever about the game was his name. I found the whole thing... somewhat incomplete. However I've sure there are people who took all kinds of things from the game - like, how far would you be willing to go for love and all that nonsense. But that's the beautiful thing about art - you can take as much or as little as you want from it, right?

Typhus

Prodigys Flawless

Call me crazy, but I always figured that a role model should be a real flesh and blood h00man. Not Kratos.

Also I would like to note that I have exhausted my this whole "omg these computer generated characters don't look like real women! TEH LUNACY D:" issue to the point where it's impossible for me to care anymore.

Makes me wish for the more simple days, when videogames were just "fun".

Dauragon C. Mikado

Gosh and here I thought I played games to have fun and escape the real world into a nice reality I can immerse myself in for a while and sometimes have fun or even role play with people around the world.

Oh yes it would be much more fun to play a game where after that we gamers can sit down and have a like a book reading club situation to discuss the philosophies of the game and what it was trying to tell us.

.... no not really, if thats what it takes for 'games' to be considered 'art' for YOU then I'm all for 'hollywood-like' games to prevent that, I think 'hollywood' is the lesser of 2 evils in this case, especially for well you know the gamers that well, you know play games for well you know? virtual FUN?

Lets be clear I do like 'Art', BUT I hate the word 'art' it such a stupidly abstract word open to ANY interpretation, but likes being thrown around and argued about by high and mighty people that believe only they know what art is.

Oh yes I'm sure I could sit down right now and write analysis and articles about how playing Tetris reflects the jigsaw of my life and the inevitability of death, or how playing Doom as a child was the representations of destroying my childhood demons of a troubled family. blah blah blah.

But I'd rather not thanks.

charsuipau

Anyway, sorry for the rant, just thought I should clarify. There's enough misinformation about this game flying around as it is.

Typhus

xbulletholes

I doubt you've actually payed games. You really, really don't have a clue what you're talking about. By what god-given, divine, white-light, holier than thou, crap don't stink, saintly, immaculate, hear no evil see no evil speak no evil, enlightened, nervana attained, angelic, can never tell a lie, titanic, asgardian, christly, motherofgod-hood, olympian, buddah-like, Emperor of mankind, keeper of the rings, holder of the matrix of unity, Neo like, Master Chiefly, Sparda's son, Alucard like, Kryptonic, Skywalkerly, freaking credentials do you speak down to us pions about the machinations of storytelling?

You have strong opinions, that's great, but don't come in here telling us what is and is not.

Maybe sexy characters are insulting to you, and maybe you're taking it as disrespect, but fuck me if it's notn okay to look up to a fictional character for whatever they stand for, lessons they have to offer, or just plain emulating their values. You know, when I look at Ivy (Queen of the bashed women for their clothes), I see a strong women who fights temptation no matter how strong and is willing to do whatever it takes, including killing those who stand in her way innocent or not, to destory a huge source of evil. But zomg those tits are huge, let's not look at her character. Better yet, prtend she doesn't even have one.

If I touch you will it cure my heart murmer and fill me with enlightenment?

Why don't you go to the developers conference and school all them dumbasses on how to live up to 'high art' standards? Screw your high art - it's nothing more than a bunch of dipshits who dress in fancy clothes so they can look at random paint smears (and equilvent) and pretend they find 'meaning' about the 'human condition' or some other pyscho nonsense when really they don't have a freaking clue what they're looking at because they guy/girl doing it was probably smoking the gooood stuff and they themselves don't know what they did.

No thanks. Leave me be with my simple lessons with pratical applications. Go ahead and indulge you're sense of self worth by staring at crazy swirls or body parts randomly placed together, I'll be over here with a hot chick who kicks ass and has got somethin' wortwhile to say.

Garro

@YUYU: Preach it! Alas, the general core gamer are 30 something males.

TheDollHouse

Thats exactly what I felt when X2 got out.. The little interest I had in me to play FFX at that time then play FFX-2 died. (I missed playing the first on its release cause of university).

Plsk1n

We want good looking girls to be in our video games, that doesn't mean they need to be slutted up. Despite how often the media throws sex in our face, not every girl we're attracted to follows the Skank Rules...why not keep that in mind in video games?

As for male protagonists..well honestly we're playing guys who are taking on impossible odds. Jim in Accounting doesn't seem like he's cut out for a role in Devil May Cry does he?

The art of seduction has always been imagination. Give a peek, and allow your mind to do the rest of the work. Just seems like reality itself forgot that piece.

Batousi

theprof00

theprof00

When I initially heard they were making a sequel to FFX I was excited, happy.

Then I saw yuna, and threw off my entire interest in the sequel.

It wasn't because that I thought that Yuna wouldn't become a person who would dress like that. It was because the maturity, sense of pride, and beauty I saw in her before vanished the secound I saw her singing in that outfit. FFX was a game where I thought the people were of real character. I lost that sense of character in FFX-2.

geoffcbassett

elint6

Most actress have to put up with appearing naked on a movie not because it adds to the story but because it makes it more attractive to watch. "the girl then takes a shower without knowing someone opened the front door..." "she takes a shower and contemplates what just happened earlier..." this is movie eye candy.

Art has the same problem, drawing a giant vagina with a horse head popping out is just trying too hard to be famous. Everyone knows that if you are a photographer you have to have nude sessions with hot models, why? just practice man, just practice...

The only video game that needs sex and actually doesn't use it is Leisure Suit Larry, suggestive jokes work tons more than seeing Larry penetrating a girl. the Hot Coffee is the best example of how stupid sex in video games is.

Maybe if they can make a game using the Wiimote might work, but pressing buttons like Parappa doesn't work.

Another game is that "Touching pre-teen witches" or "Dead or Alive: Beach Volleyball", this is just interactive pornography and it isn't a game. Watching those P.O.V. interactive DVDs are might be more enjoyable than cartoony porn. It's like reading PLAYBOY for the articles. whatever man...

VakeroRokero

Overt sexuality in anything is stupid and pointless, usually... unless it's for humorous purposes, or it is used to send a message (Which it pretty much never has been, it's usually to just cater to a terrible market of terrible people. In movies, for example.. something like The Secretary, it's always got the worst fans imaginable. Hipsters and Goths. Yuck.)

We need better characters in games, more depth to them, more emotions to them, more LOVE in videogames, like that one guy said.
(Though, FF9 is a bad example. Shallow, shallow, SHALLOW story and characters right there.)

otimus

So I don't think it's untennable for games to reach a level where a sexual or sensual relationship between characters can be portrayed beyond just showing "Boobs 'n Ass"

@sir_carrot: Most people hate to see boobs next to their guns, could be a Freudian thing.

zoesch

gitrooman

Ignited_Impulse

beer bellies, hairy bits and yuk. I can understand lesbians completely, I can never understand why anybody finds men attractive, to look at at least.

EdwinJ85

I'm glad he's so famous. Still you of all people should know that if they have fully formed breasts, Pedobear is not interested.

My original point still stands - why does everything need sex in it? It seems stupid to have sexual suggestion in everything, all it does is turn you on with nowhere to go. The only sex I like is the sex one gets to personally attend to. A few boobies on a cover of a game do not interest me.

EdwinJ85

P.S. I don't know that I would consider zero suit Samus as oversexualized. What would you expect a character in a sci-fi game would have under armor? A frilly dress?

Tiber

>.> Mass Effect has nothing to do with this. Still, I don't see how you can compare harry potter's presentation of sex to mass effect's. As stated earlier, Mass Effects sex scene was poorly implemented and completely unnecessary. The sex scene in Mass Effect could be reached with little to no development in terms of romance or storytelling. It was nothing like presenting a fully developed romance. Harry's relationship was developed over a whole series of books. Mass Effects was developed in 20 minutes of dialog (If you talk to the female or male character often and explore the entire conversation tree). And even then, it's quite shallow.

Wuth

Play Mass Effect. After 20-30 hours, find the sex scene, watch for 30 seconds, and then play the rest of the game. Only those over 17 can get their hands on this game in stores.

What's worse? Harry Potter uses kids imaginations to picture the events that unfold in the book. Mass Effect shows you what happened, and that's what happened.

We should burn all the books.

excaleranth

It's because it's starting to define us. It's because it's everywhere, in everything we touch. It's because it's insulting and disrespectful to women (and even men :O).

But it isn't the only thing that's wrong with games. And just because this is a serious topic, it doesn't mean that it's OK to outright condemn video games either. They do somethings right... I'm pretty sure they aren't doing the best things right, but they do some things very well.

Wuth

I never said that sexuality in films was any more mature, but film has a much larger base to allow the mature films to thrive. Video Games are trying too damn hard to become Hollywood when they should be trying to set themselves apart..

And no. Those games are not "art house" games. They're not even close. An example of an art house game would be something along the lines of "Portal" or SOTC. Both games tell stories and present experiences in a way that is unique to video games. But, that being said, neither is what I would call an art house game. I'm not so sure there is such a thing yet.

Now, why do I believe this? Because I am certain that nobody has any idea what an artistic video game is supposed to be. Well, to answer that we'll just use the general definition of high art: Video games will not be art until they can be read as text.

Now, what does that mean? In film, we talk about film in terms of its mise-en-scene, its storytelling, cinematography, etc. in order to fully understand underlying themes and messages. Why was this film made? What does it make me feel? How does blank relate to this major theme? How do these things work together? These are questions you ask when analyzing a film. What questions can we ask when playing a video game?

Now, I'm not saying we should or even could critique games as we do film, but i think we could take a page from it. This is because most art is read in this way. Paintings, sculpture, music, literature- they are all read like this. Generally, the more complicated and well thought out the work, the more artistic value it has. But video games are not like this. They are becoming far too commercial. This is the reason for the poor quality of video games in the present. They use sex as a selling point, or cars, or guns. It's all hooks and no substance. Few game can truly be dissected and appreciated as art because of this.

That being said, I do believe video games are art. I just don't believe they have reached their potential. The Hollywoodization of video games came about far too quickly, and games have yet to even discover their true potential.

Wuth

mossberg

FancifulUnicorn

Okay, never mind.

But that only proves my point of games getting bashed when they try to appeal to females with sexual themes.

YUYU

Garro

It certainly doesn't break down the stereotype that gamers are just a bunch of girlfriend-less sex-lacking nerds. Since when did we, as a society, stop admiring the beauty in REAL women and started worshiping the plastic surgery culture.

Boobs are not the problem, it is our society's view that natural and real beauty just isn't beautiful enough.

Or perhaps you really are a bunch of sex-craved losers. If that's true, you should finally cancel that fucking World of Warcraft account and go meet a real woman. It's pretty rewarding. Trust me.

bysty

purplehanz

sir_carrot

Name that quote?

Personally, the whole extreme outrage at sexuality in mainstream games seems a bit insane to me. It's allowed in every other form of entertainment, what's wrong with video games? Same as the outrage toward violence in games, I guess, the interactivity and somewhat misguided assumption that video games are directed mostly at children. Still, I mean, impulses toward sex tend to create more people, whereas impulses toward violent tend to lean toward erasing people.

So what's the big deal? Why target boobs as a source of evil? I'm so unsure. Sometimes the whole world seems mad. Then again, peel away language and what really means anything at all - not this sentence, that's for sure.

sir_carrot

Sex on deoderant, sex on cars what next sex in my friggin toast?

I understand the need to get away from the whol juvenile 'giant anime boobs' syndrome games suffer from but I dont see why every female character in a game has to be a potential bed post notch for the main one. We dont need sex everywhere.

EdwinJ85

Spaceboy

I was saying, I'm still early in the game and did not want to come to any conclusions without knowing then entire story. However, her actions, title and reputation certainly implied who she is and what she likes to do, it just seemed a little out of place considering I just returned from having an ancient civilization's beacon make me levitate and see visions. Also, I had just walked from the embassies of some of the more larger species in the galaxy. I just wouldn't expect a woman of that type to have her office located so close to things so important, no matter how high demand is. Perhaps I lack an understanding of the cultures in this game.

This is clearly a side quest and having sex with her is probably a result of a converation with her following you carrying out what she asks you to. I don't know Kirbymorph, I think this portion is pointless, especially so early in the game.

I agree with what Wuth said above, that the writers didn't know what to do and this side quest is a result of that. In my opinion, they had the M rating (knew they were shooting for it) and wanted to take more advantage of it. The game doesn't advertise it has sex in it, so people do not play it knowingly looking for it (at least, I know I don't). This possible (I say possible because it is not mandatory for every player) sex scene so early in the game doesn't seem to add anything to the game at all.

It's like watching an action movie where the hero has sex with a prostitute right after his first successful spy mission. Later you don't find out that he has attachment issues or that he's addicted to sex or some other problem. It's never brought up again. Didn't add to the story at all. And it's not some deep-thought invoking "Oh, I really wonder why he did that!" plot twist, it's just... yep, he had sex and that's it. Worthless to a story.

Spaceboy

What a society holds as beautiful is another factor as well.

holycaribou

i think you raise a good point. perhaps i didn't mean mature in exactly that way. i just think there is a huge difference between the way games have normally dealt with sex, and the way some of the television shows we all love have dealt with sex.

i do think there needs to be more focus on developing an IN-GAME relationship with characters.

it really comes down to AI for a large part of it.. but i think basically, we need to find a way to make you, as a player, actually CARE about what happens.

i think there does need to be some emotional lead up to sex in games. it can be as kinky and steamy as you like, once its there, but you have to care about it first. that i think is a main thing. you have to connect with the characters, to relate with them.. to feel the way they do.

i know its possible, i just don't know how.

joelface

TinyLightning

Xeonosaga, for instance, began with anime-based character designs and switched to more modest and realistic models for the second and third games (KOS-MOS excluded). Granted, the second and third games did not sell well for more than their lack of sex, but the series still effected how games are presented in a dramatic context.

The Resident Evil and Silent Hill series changed how games can effect our sense of "fight or flight" - very much without the attraction of sex.

The Wii might not be changing how games are presented, but rather how we interact. Nintendo places a lot of emphasis on game play instead of sex and none of their games could be considered art-house titles.

I'm wondering if sex isn't the problem with the medium, it's the lack of funding for creative artists.

holycaribou

Your comment implies that 18-34 males want classy, mature sexuality in their games. That may be true for some of us (I'm 27), but as a demographic, we're much more likely to watch "American Pie" than "Sense and Sensibility." When it comes to sex, young men are, as a demographic, juvenile about it (and, for the record, always have been--this isn't the result of video games by any stretch).

I think sexuality comes down to story, and story means exposition and dialogue, and exposition and dialogue mean slowing down the pace, focusing on emotional details, basically stuff that often means low sales figures. These games do exist. But we (again, that crucial 18-34 demographic) don't buy them. We buy Halo.

alaren

magically_delicious

and here i thought that gaming's key demographic was males aged 18-34.

we do deserve some classy mature games. if anything, thats the MAIN thing that videogames need to really break open into the mainstream, to become a distinguished artform, like movies and television.

we see hints of it all over the place, but its rarely accomplished tactfully.

i think sex is a good thing for gaming. it makes all forms of media, and entertainment more interesting. god knows, we humans love our sex.

thing is... theres a way you can do it that appeals to the 13 year old boy in us all, and there is a way you can do it that doesn't embarrass you to show a significant other.

...so i think thats one of the key things designers have to realize when they integrate sex into their games. it needs to be done WELL.

joelface

Sex sells. It's no different than MTV broadcasting "reality" shows instead of music videos. The creators of media know that using sex is a shortcut for getting money. The ideals caused by sex in media is what is being argued here, not the fact that they do it.

Still, think of the effect of having more modest characters in a game. Many successful and (often) big-budget games series put more focus on game play (ie - Halo, Mario, Final Fantasy, Castlevania, Oddworld, Crash Bandicoot, Resident Evil, so many more) instead of the sex appeal of their characters. Many games that do involve sex have very little or very repetitive game play and it seems that something is needed to draw more attention from players.

I haven't played Mass Effect yet to know about character interactions and personalities, but I do respect them for trying to tie a more mature view of sex into the game tastefully.

holycaribou

GregoriusH

The premise that "mature" sexuality will have a maturing affect on the games market requires one to ignore the handful of games out there that already employ sex in a mature way--games that have not enjoyed market appeal.

And while we're on the subject, the idea that film handles sexuality in a "mature" way is pretty ridiculous. Teen sex romps handle sex in a juvenile way. Romances handle sex in a romanticized way. Action flicks handle sex about as well as mainstream video games (who was the last overweight actress you saw naked on the screen?).

The most realistic portrayal of sexuality I've ever seen on film was in HBO's Tell Me You Love Me, a series that practically screams "art-house." People want their sexuality idealized just like they want their heroes (and their heroism!) idealized. Maturity goes hand-in-hand with realism, but the majority of gamers don't game for realism, they game for escapism. Which is not a bad thing, but realistic and mature is by definition antithetical to escapist media.

In short, gaming as a medium is doing just fine. I expect as the demographic continues to mature, the availability of genre-busting games will imrove, but there will always be teenage boys, and they will always like their damsels busty and beautiful.

alaren

Bernard McGraw

In love? Please, the conversation system is good, but not once when playing did I ever feel I was actually developing a real relationship. The sex scene jumps out of nowhere and is not intelligently placed. It's undeveloped and undeserved.

Wuth

I felt sorry for guys who packed into gyms, trying to look like how Calvin Klein and Tommy Hilfiger said they should.

That's what your post made me think of right off the bat, anyways.

Personally, I think the maturation of the genre will go a long way towards the inclusion of sexuality in games. Games are still a relatively young medium. Film didn't dive right into sexuality, either. As more and more people game, as more and more gamers get older, there will be a market for mature games with mature themes.

Strangelove

KirbyMorph

"I can only hope the gaming community as a whole matures to the point that sex and sexuality in gaming shows a greater depth and value rather than being used for cheap money grabs and attention whoring..."

:D Thank you. Perhaps there is still hope...

Wuth

Art house games do not exist in the same context that art house films do. We do not have an outlet for this kind of thing. So I don't agree that these things exist. I think that's the main reason for the stagnation of the medium.

At this point in time, we have very few games available, or in development, that are actually attempting to push the medium forward. It's been relying on the same game play concepts, storytelling mediums, and interfaces for the past ten years. Video games still have no idea what they are or what they do best. Our narratives are horrible, our characters are designed from a purely aesthetic point of view, and we have yet to skate away from our traditional genres.

I would even go as far as to say that art design is the least important thing to current game developers. Why create an original character when you could easily cut and past Master Chief 50 times? Why create a realistic, intelligently designed female character when you could just dress her in an armored bikini and call her a damsel in distress?

I suppose that you could also blame writing for these things as well, and I agree that it is part of the problem. Video games need to figure out what kind of story they tell best. What kind of story can they tell that no other medium can tell? Final Fantasy games are poor examples of how narratives should be presented. The stories they tell could be easily adapted into a film or a television series, so even though they are enjoyable experiences, this form of storytelling is out of date. Perhaps its the lack of skill or creativity in the game writers, but I suggest that it is more likely due to the fact that they only know one way to tell a story. I think more experimentation is necessary (Portal, for example) in order to move the art form in a new direction.

And I know the arguments. Why change the formula if this is what everyone likes? Why? Because it makes gamers look like fools and makes games look like toys. I look forward to a day when video games figure out what makes them unique.

Wuth

Spaceboy

But there are notable examples where this is not the case, Chell from Portal is by no means a goddess - she's lithe, but remarkably plain looking compared to the artistic ridiculousness of Nariko.

One also has to be realistic and admit that the vast majority of people playing games have the collective maturity of a Kindergarten class, and any deviation from the extremely idealized 'runway-model' look tends to be met with howls of derision from the maladjusted pocket-mining demographic. An honest portrayal of human sexuality is both foreign and terrifying to them. And in their discomfort they'll savage it because actually coming to terms with something that you find discomforting is WAY too mature for them. Yes, there is a significant portion of gamers who actually ARE adult enough to deal with mature portrayals of sex and sexuality, but they are still vastly outnumbered by masses of social retards who think having big boobs makes a game worth buying (note how popular DoA Beach Volleyball was).
And then of course there are mature THEMES in games that are still almost impossible for a huge chunk of the gaming populace to handle in an adult manner, like homosexuality for example. Anytime someone touches that one people who not 10 minutes ago were playing a game where you can sleep with and then kill hookers will start claiming some sort of bizarre 'moral high ground' on that subject... o_O
I can only hope the gaming community as a whole matures to the point that sex and sexuality in gaming shows a greater depth and value rather than being used for cheap money grabs and attention whoring...
Of course I am also not holding my breath either ;)

Furiursa

Spaceboy

Spaceboy

munkah

z357x

Makoto

MrBionic

Playstation3

Papa Midnight

"Isn't this world supposed to be devastatingly cold? Why the heck does she have a foot of cleavage showing at all times? Those are some pretty hardy boobs."

MrBionic

[www.google.com]

Wookiee1

Thorax

But sadly, our society values 'beautiful' things just as all societies in human history have, and if you can be or create something beautiful, you work at Mcdonalds. At some point, they too must also come to grips with the soul crushing reality that no one will ever run out of ways to say 'I'm better than you'.

magically_delicious

Balding and portly is realistic? Than I officially don't like reality. Portly? Train more. Balding? Shave your head.

On topic im not sure if it is more prominent in games. If it is though I would argue that it is probably due to the fact games have to be interactive and so the variety is realistically less than movies. A movie about two people falling in love in a normal world? Very entertaining. A game about two people falling in love in a normal world? Where is the gameplay?

I would say it's improving in games though. Look at Lost Planet. I don't feel the main female (Luca? Wow this is one of my favourite games too) was either in the completly innocent or ott category. Yes she was sexy but she dressed for the conditions as well.

I would say FF8 also doesn't quite fall into sweet innocent hand holding or being completly ott. It was a reasonably normal relationship.... monsters and witches aside >.>

Zim

Too bad it's way easier to have more boobs in a game than it is to have more brains.

tnx3

FF9 is my favorite example, near then end when Zidane is pretty lost and the people who love him bring him back over the edge.

z357x

Striderhayasa - Phillyyakk on PSN and Live.

You hit the nail on the head there

Madhotdog

Stormrider

"It's complete bullshit to say female protagonists should be exempt from sexuality. No male protagonist with a semblance of realism to them is created without sexuality in mind, be it overt or not; it's simply human nature to look at a person of the opposite gender and consider the probability and value of mating.

In my opinion, we need to reinstate a policy of dignified sexy. We live in a society where sexy women tends to be equated with childlike weakness and sexual subservience to man, particularly in terms of fashion. Sexy has become the domain of girls. There was a time when sexy meant dangerous, and was a property of women."

Sunjammer

gamadaya

There's well planned, well designed uses of sexuality in games. Pai, Sarah Bryant, Samus Aran designs....good. Christie Monteiro (nothing attractive about her designs, range from stupid to skanky), Nariko (looks great but stupid as hell considering she's running around in the snow in butt floss and a skimpy top) Laura Croft - just silly, did her breast really need to be that big? Really.

Striderhayasa - Phillyyakk on PSN and Live.

it's really just that the writing in games has sucked absolute ass period...

it's not just women that have been stereotyped, it's everything inside the game and the plot itself.

Bioshock is a perfect example of a game that has believable characters and excellent writing throughout the entire production....

magically_delicious

Boobies.

tickmenanny

balla4real

Zeouterlimits

smooshkin

The problem is not that there's too little brain or too much boob--it's that every female video-game character gets turned into a conversation about objectifying women or warping teenage minds. If you weren't so focused on turning every video game into a political statement, maybe you'd realize that juvenile games are made to appeal to a juvenile audience. Classy, tasteful, "mature" games that portray mature sexuality are geared to a pretty limited audience. They do exist, but they're the "art-house flicks" of the videogame world.

alaren