coktoe

cpfuk

JustinS

In Indiana Jones, the Nazis are antagonists, and they are also bad guys.

dowingba

Akin

The protagonist is the principal character in a story. Their actions are the focus of the story being told. Those opossed to the protagonist are the antagonists. There can be one or multiple of both.

For instance in a drama telling the life story of Hitler, Hitler is actually the protagonist. The Allies could be the antagonists in this story.

Indiana Jones is the protagonist in the movies because he is the main character who is on a quest, not because he is the good guy.

JustinS

Oh, and does anyone remember the Lego concentration camp?

[users.erols.com]

WhoreofSpamylon

@justhesh: Exactly.

Irenicus-the one and only

It's hard to believe in a world where so many wrongs are being committed day in, day out, would a company concern itself with drawing attention to the REALITY of our bloody history.

Our kids need a good lesson, might make them look after what they have a bit better, and use their damn vote.

Nick

.... what a truly dumb thing to say.

Nick

Aegis: Gentleman mercenary for hire...

dunnace

justhesh

@Witzbold:
Yes, and the ironic part about it all was that, during the book burning "party", Hitler ends up absently signing Papa Jones' grail diary and then hands it back to Indiana.

Anyways, here's the whole thing about this. First of all, you shouldn't be asking why The LEGO Company would be taking Nazis out of the video game, but rather why they should/would make Nazis in the first place. Denmark was invaded by Nazi Germany for the simple "crime" of being a neighboring country. And while Germany has the strictest response to their own past actions (illegal to depict a swastika, illegal for their own military to wear uniforms within German borders), the nations they invaded during WW2 aren't exactly fans of Nazis. Now, that takes care of the Danish stance on Nazis, but it gets a lot more complex than that.

The LEGO Company has had a long-standing internal ban on producing "war toys". Basically, for the bulk of their history, they did not make any weapons (including military vehicles) that were invented in the 20th century. Actually, early on they didn't even produce weapons of _any_ type, a stance which changed with the introduction of the Yellow Castle, which included swords, battleaxes, and jousting lances. From there they expanded their range of weapons, but tried to keep a little distance between what they made and what recent history had produced. Flintlocks and revolvers (even revolver-rifles) were okay because they came from previous centuries. Spaceguns were okay, because they were fictional concepts. But no automatic rifles, no semi-auto handguns, no tanks, no fighter jets, and until very recently, no modern military troops (just the red/bluecoats from the Pirates sets, and the Civil War-era Union soldiers from the Western sets can really be taken as depicting historical militaries). And even the minifigs that were clearly based on historical military troops did not bear any insignias that would clearly identify which nations they hailed from. There were no Union Jacks in the redcoat sets, no French flags in the bluecoat sets, and no American flags in the Western sets.

Things didn't change again from that point until 1999, which is the first time that I know of where a pre-existing insignia was used on a set of a military nature, which is when the Imperial "snowflake" appeared on Darth Vader's TIE Fighter, and the Rebel crest showed up on the Y-Wing, X-Wing, Snowspeeder, and Rebel pilot helmets. Next was when the now-defunct LEGO Direct company produced the Sopwith Camel in 2001, and the Red Baron's triplane in 2002 (the first instances of 20th century weapons, and historical military insignia on weapons/warcraft of any sort). However, it should be pointed out that LEGO Direct was given considerable leeway in what they offered, so long as it was released as a Shop@Home exclusive (which also produced the first UCS ship, which was the $300 Star Destroyer model), and that this is still the only true depiction of historical military factions in LEGO history. The most recent change in their practices, leading into the debut of Indiana Jones, was the production of 20th century minifig-scale weapons, being the semi-auto pistol and the tommygun from the Batman sets, and the two new Star Wars rifles (for which the original movie props were built around real WW2-era guns).

So now, the real question that you should be asking is not why they _didn't_ depict Nazis as Nazis in the Indiana Jones sets, but why they should _start_ depicting non-fictionalized historical military troops with what is probably the most reviled military force in modern history.

Purple Dave

A lot of young kids don't even know what the Holocaust was anymore. :| This is a CRIME. I suppose it's why Anne Frank is required middle school reading.

MaiAri

#1 The toys are supposed to make kids want the game, and the game is supposed to make kids want the toys. And neither the toy company, nor the game company, want to sell Nazis to children. And parents don't want to buy Nazis for their children.

#2 The game and the toys are also supposed to introduce the franchise to new children, to entice them for the upcoming new movie. And again, you don't do that by selling them Nazis.

#3 It's not denying history. Aside from the fact that nothing in the game or movies ever happened in reality, and that toys also don't come to life, it's simply protecting two brands from being the companies that again, sell Nazis. Not only that, but it's saving a mature subject for people that are actually mature enough to understand it.

This isn't the 1940s. Captain America and Bucky aren't off battling Hitler and the Red Skull. There aren't any propaganda films about the evils of krauts and japs. The time for glorifying that period in history is over. And you don't start that up again by slapping the logos for atrocities on to children's toys.

If people can't understand that, then well...maybe video games do desensitize people.

justhesh

legacyed

That was the part when he had stolen the officers uniform during the book burning right?

Witzbold

Nex Antonius

Nex Antonius

Because offending people or being "mean" is the absolute worst "crime" one can be accused of perpetrating nowadays.

Matter of fact, lets follow Northern Europe's lead and start arresting people over such "crimes". Thats the rational thing to do.

Cell9song

All the kids will see is evil soldiers rendered in a lego world.

To the rest of us fans we will know that its suposed to be the Nazi army.

Everyone wins.

Witzbold

MikeTheSpike

Wyld

NPlace

smacks of the 'ministry of information' to me.

comedy

Also, they are not wiped from textbooks just forms of entertainment in Germany for good reason. There are still active nazi organisations in Germany.

Irenicus-the one and only

Doomstink

Doomstink

CaptainMurphy

Witzbold

LEGO Star Wars was comical, as watching the adorable little Lego Sith was just amusing. Okay, Darth Vader killed loads of baddies, and murdered children and was a crazy nutter, but he did it with a lightsabre in a galaxy far, far away. Hitler did those things in this galaxy, to real people, 60 years ago.

I by no means condone most censorship, and I think that kids will not be affected by this. I myself was killing evil KGB guys in Goldeneye, when I was 7. And that was hardly a history lesson, it was fun.

But portraying Hitler in the comedic, caraicatureish [is that even a word?] way just seems to be in bad taste. And as that type of comedy is what made LEGO Star Wars so great, I think that the best option would be to keep that humour, and the best way of doing it is by changing the baddies.

As long as the gameplay and script are good, I'm happy.

Krondonian

I can see the opening scene now...

"Elwood: You don't like it?
Jake: No I don't like it...
[Elwood Blues floors the pedal and jumps over an open drawbridge]
Jake: Car's got a lot of pickup.
Elwood: It's got a cop motor, a 440 cubic inch plant, it's got cop tires, cop suspensions, cop shocks. It's a model made before catalytic converters so it'll run good on regular gas. What do you say, is it the new Bluesmobile or what?
[a brief thinking pause while Jake attempts to light a cigarette]
Jake: Fix the cigarette lighter."

Then the Title Screen comes up...

But then, with all the current PC crap... Not only would there be no Nazi's, he probably couldn't talk about the cigarette lighter.

Eltigro

sloner

Sugaray

It doesn't really have the same... Ring to it. Luckily these Lego guys don't talk.

albo

retronaut

Witzbold

I'm still pissed off that I can't shoot hitler in the face in Bionic Commando: Rearmed. I mean OF ALL THE VIDEOGAMES ENEMIES IN THE WORLD that I would find extreme pleasure in filling up with hot sweet lead in HIGH DEFINITION, it would be Adolf Fucking Hitler.

Dauragon C. Mikado

I also don't think a game with Lego gets hurt by this history/movie inaccuracy. Like justhesh say, some games does better without it.

Anyway, thats how I feel and think about this.

Irenicus-the one and only

And tbh, I think most statements about having swastikas and calling them Nazis in a lego game important for kids are stupid. But I try to restrain myself.

Irenicus-the one and only

Anyway, thats my opinion. We can't agree all the time :)

Irenicus-the one and only

"Yeah so because it did not affect you, me and some others we should show schindler's list to 5year olds?"

Seriously dont think too long and hard about what you just typed there.

Witzbold

Witzbold

If this was the next indiana jones Teen/M rated LA game then it would be stupid. But this is Lego for kids primarely, so I don't see a problem avoiding things like the holocaust. Also, I'm Jewish, and sometimes it is nice with a fun game to play with my little brother or something without Hitler and nazis starring in it.

I don't understand how this is a big deal for some of you anyway. This is not really a case of censorship.

Irenicus-the one and only

Witzbold

justhesh

We arent saying go plaster the swastika over everything in legos, but if they are going to change the characters thats just stupid.

Witzbold

Would I like them, think it was appropriate to have them in it? Yes! But it is a kids game for... first of all kids. I don't mind, it could have been worse, they could have been potrayed good, as some sick people here at Kotaku seem to get off on and want. Hitler playing Mii's and cute Nazi symbols on Lego etc. I object!

Irenicus-the one and only

Theres no need to be overly protective about it since I mean fuck its a part of history and putting your hands over kids eyes isnt going to protect them forever.

Sometimes I really scratch my head at shit like this, granted I can see both sides of the coin but still. What the fuck.

Witzbold

Aldriel

Witzbold

jaronimo

Wellcome to Gray Goo!

Tei

I can see both sides of the issue here. As a huge Indy fan I desperately want to see movie accuracy (tho' the sheer volume of playable characters outnumbers that of the stars in the original movies & has me a little skeptical.) But there's also the sense of appropriateness in a game that could be going for an "E" rating. Parents may avoid getting their grade schooler a game simply because it features a genocidal occultist master race however historically accurate it may be. I can live without the swastika & Nazi label as long as the game is well done & fun.

On a different note, I'm totally looking forward to the heart-ripping scene in LEGO Temple of Doom.

Evil Jim

It almost seems worse to have generic genocidal maniacs in the game. At least if they're Nazis, you can tell your kids "Yes, these people actually existed, and they were horrible." and your kids can (hopefully) take that to heart. What are you accomplishing by putting generic evil-doers in their place? Is being a genocidal maniac somehow a lesser evil if it's not in a historically relevant capacity? I'm not following this logic.

This whole thing seems like an overly enthusiastic attempt at making the game as politically correct as possible, at the expense of accuracy, realism, and common sense.

残心

inphanta

justhesh

dunetiger reads kotaku, seems pleased

ParadiseEve

They keep making half Indi, half Darth Maul characters.....very disturbing.

Captain Internet

Laser_iCE

dowingba

~phil

CRUNK

Gigith

I don't think it's so much "the world we live in now" as much as it's a game for the whole family, especially small kids, and there really aren't many decent games for players of that age group. If your parents don't want you watching the Indy films because they have Nazis in them, you've got lots of other films to watch. If you're a 7 year old who appreciates decent games for kids, Lego IJ is probably the Holy Grail this year (assuming it's as good as the Star Wars games).

And remember folks, only 2/3 of the movies had Nazis in them! Hopefully grey-uniformed badguys will be better than random crazy Indians who like to whoop and cheer a lot in front of some glowing stones.

Looking forward to the level where you have to climb up the ropebridge while avoiding GREY BADGUYS trying to kick you off though!

Kazzahdrane

The Nazi's, as the protagonists in Indiana Jones, were searching for relics of the past to better help control whatever it is they wanted to control (read: The world). Big Bad Evil. But, in Indiana Jones, the Nazi's weren't bad because of the concentration camps they put people in, because of the Holocaust, or because of their forceful invasion of multiple countries on the European front. Are all of these things bad? Yes...

But do those facts relate to Indiana Jones on his quest to get some pretty sweet ancient relics? I'm going to say... not so much. It's just that in the time period of Indiana Jones, they Nazi's were a good fit.

In addition, SS and Nazi Paranormal happenings has been played to death already in video games. Replacing them with just a random evil looking cult in this situation makes complete sense. They can want the relic for domination of the world, because it's a crazy cult. That's what they do.

Parents also get out of this with a lesson, too. Timmy might want to know why cults are bad, and his dad could then explain to him how cults make people believe and do things they wouldn't normally believe or do. And that's bad. Timmy needs to think for himself. Later, when the Holocaust question comes up, or the Nazi question comes up, easy references can be made. "Remember when we were talking about cults, Timmy?"

Is it perfect? No.
Is it the best implementation, given the situation? Yes.

Ginko

VakeroRokero

shadow_judge

Covert_Knight

Really, a swastika has no place in THIS title, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a non-descript set of enemies in the upcoming 'grown-up' Indy game (which, I believe, is NOT set in the same era as the upcoming film). It's just the world we live in and the byproduct of walking on eggshells at every freaking turn.

jollydwarf

Oh, and in the LEGO Star Wars games you could pop into an AT-AT or even look like Stormtroopers/Darth Vader/Other evil dudes. If they're carrying over the tradition they do not want kids running around with little swastikas on.

bnpederson

Nathan24

My five year old frickin' adores Indy. His brown fedora makes him the envy of all the boys in his kindergarten class. So, in my area at least, lots of five year olds know who the fuck Indiana Jones is.

stuffabunch

Arklop

Erwin

TheCleaningGuy

justhesh

I think it's goofy, too, but it's their perogative. At least he didn't do it in the title this time.

justhesh

I think that biggest part of this is that LEGO is a European company and toy first, thus the removal of Nazism. I suspect a close second is that LEGO is willing to introduce violence into their toys when they're able to safely neuter it into PG area: historical weapons, relatively tame Star Wars/sci-fi violence, and so on. And even though, I think it would be cool to own little Nazi minifigs, I am glad for this policy.

On the other hand, Raiders of the Lost Ark is a movie about Judaism literally taking its revenge on the Nazis. It seems like removing them makes the movie series emotionally empty.

Shevek

Molbork

They lost a sale. I want Indiana Jones in Lego form fighting humorous Nazi's in lego form.

Demonbird

Frank

Molbork

HfAsianInvasion

I don't see exactly, what removing Nazi's does "for the children", other than pre-censoring the game out of political fear.

EnigmaNemesis

1. Don't be a grammar Nazi.

2. It is their web site, they can do what they want.

(see what i did there for #1)

EnigmaNemesis

There's two sides to every story. But Im not advocating support or forgiveness for Nazis. Im not a Nazi sympathizer but theres always circumstances that must not be overlooked.

I guess to some up what I mean

"The Nazi Regime" was horrible, evil, and should be hated, while the "Nazis", well. Some were horrible, despicable creatures. Some where utterly blind. And some were just there. However, I do not see blindness as an excuse for the atrocities committed.

agh. i think i babbled on tooo much. Time to put the rum back.

Terrorsaur.

1. Why did you ruin the quotation with your own English errors?

2. Why is the f-bomb frontpaged?

Blinkstale

I hate to act like I'm always thinking of the children but come on. We get our grown-up Indiana Jones sometime in the future, likely with Nazis. Let us be happy with that.

Drake Lake: Phase Lunaire

tamago007

Raynre

Learn something new every day, I suppose. Thanks for catching that.

RedRaptor

See Han shoots FIRST!

Oh damn!

:-/

EnigmaNemesis

though i imagine the Danish dont exactly have great memories about the Nazis, either... was kind of looking forward to ripping Nazi arms out of their sockets (when they charge you $60 for a set of next-next gen versions Lego Star Wars I&II, Lego Indiana Jones and Lego Batman).

smokyburnout

EmTeeZ

Trowble (XBL/PSN)

Erwin

lego is a danish company not german.

rockett1

The kid playing that is!

EnigmaNemesis

As long as the references to the film remain strong and the quality of the game is up there with or above Lego Star Wars, I really don't see any reason for anyone but the most ardent Indiana Jones fanboy to be upset about this.

Well, Indiana Jones fanboys and supporters of the Nazi Party, at any rate.

Lezard

So what difference does it make whether you beating up Nazi's, or freaks that look like Nazi's in trench coats?

EnigmaNemesis

BigBadBlender

Scioptic

As I'm sure has been stated, twenty-somethings these days have kids playing video games. So it can be both.

bnpederson

Garro

@vincevl: I highly doubt this will make all memory of the atrocities of the Nazi regime just vanish from memory. I also highly doubt this is a sign of "forgetfulness" either.

The devs seem to be damned if they do or don't.

Kenji-sama

EnigmaNemesis

Gee...I would think the fact that they're M16s and AK-47s is enough of a reason.

justhesh

You just answered your own question.

This is Lego Indiana Jones. What better a way to turn on legions of new youths to the franchise than a video game based on toys they DO know and love? Do you hear that, Plunkett? It's the Cash Train. And kids eat free in the Dining cart.

justhesh

Then again, we can always hope for a developer patch in the States that makes them Nazis again.

RedRaptor

and what's with the paranoia over using swastikas? can we please get over that?

TemplaerDude

So that I can build up a torture room.

shadow_judge

Eltigro

Hannah

DARTH_TIGRIS

ceilingFANBOY

NPlace

NPlace

ceilingFANBOY

ceilingFANBOY

tme2nsb

Molbork

QC8472

ceilingFANBOY

kylenalepa

-You have to beat the game with only your tongue left foot and another apendage to unlock nazi's.

NessD12

Brackynews

Falconfire

dowingba

Miksho

OmegaKulu

even the new lego sets have nazis in their khaki desert uniforms, just no swastikas- i'd assumed it would be the same for the game.

jardmonkey

MrPerson

Ra is on House

I understand their issue.

KosherInfidel

xot

crab people?

rockett1

KingDavid73

dowingba

Aflack: Likes slushies

BassForever

Erwin

The Amazing Exploding-Man

Roflcopter_Down: Wants you to follow HIM!

rockett1

Wait, no it doesn't. Why wouldn't you want to include Nazis as such obvious villains? I mean, teaching kids that, "hey, Nazis are bad! Look, Indiana Jones beats them!" That's cool in my book.

Teaching kids to hate people wearing trench coats? Now that's just stupid.

AlexDitto

xot

dowingba

fauxgodzilla

vincevl

catapult37