Overlord44

ThisCharmingMan

Because it's not a computer and MS doesn't want people to think it's a computer as that will make their monopoly look worse and teh government might try to stop them from trying to dominate all forms of computing and information.

frankstallone

floppylobster

You get games with a rental system, 5$ for 3 days. But If you rent it for more than 2 weeks, you become "owner" of the game. That way you can pump from the gamers pocket as much money as is there.

Tei

CaptainBuzzKill

Publishers will never voluntarily allow trading of used DLC games simply because they would see the commission on the used sale of a 100 point game not as a 25 point profit but as a 75 point loss compared to a new sale. Transfers of electronically purchased games will only become a reality if the industry is forced to allow it via consumer law.

bonaparte

(this nonuseful post brought to you by me)

hikergirl

PSN: Lp47

Allen750

nxp3

Erwin

It's weak, but the logistics could be worked out though.

jp182

ThisCharmingMan

Ever since games moved to disc, these lofty expectations of 200+ hour epics have taken over. If you pay $10-12 for a move that lasts 90 minutes, then by all accounts, Assassin's Creed should be at least $75! Man, buying it for $60... we should kiss Jade Raymond's feet at giving us such a bargain!

bassbeast

I want my games on physical media. Why? First of all, because it's mine! I'll play it online or offline as I choose. I'll give it away as a gift to a friend, or trade said friend for another game. I can use the thing as a coaster if I want!

It's also impossible to open a cabinet and gaze lovingly on my collection when all that's in there is a hard drive. Give me my boxes to have on my shelf. Give me the pleasure of opening a game for the first time, to read the untouched manual as the intro rolls.

Part of the fun of gaming is just having the games!

crashlanding

Tracid

They need to offer cheaper HDDs if they ever want to do this.

@dumptruck:

Agree. Not to mention if you plan on buying it ... you get it brand new the day it is sent to you for that keep it price. GameFly rocks, have been using it for almost 3 years now.

EnigmaNemesis

Its my general justification for all the times I said in various Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD threads that it doesn't matter. Digital distribution will take over.

People say "well we won't have the harddrives for whole films" well how bout a service where its all streamed from them. "We dont have the bandwidth" its coming. "We don't have the speed": central Paris gets 50mb/min broadband. Yes we do have the speed.

Communist_Gamer

dumptruck

gr1f1th

My360broked

Renting a game and being able to download it I don't see a problem. How many of you rented a game from Block Buster only to rent it again. I am sure some of you have rented it so many times that you could of bought the game when that system was in place.

It's not something to totally replace hard media, it's an option. Like those saying you can finish Heavenly Sword in about 6 to 8 hours..it's a rental. Well if you can rent a game and download it for $5 to say play for a week and complete it, isn't that better than spending $60 and then it sits on the shelf for life? If later on you decide you have to get it, you can then purchase the disk.

I can see download RENTING of games to work. We already have it for movies now on the 360, Cable On Demand and it will only get bigger. Expect in the future, for a movie, to come out on big screen and at the same time you can rent it off the console/cable or buy the DVD in the store all with in the same week.

Once Internet speeds become more mainstream, it will start.

Tigerj

azilla

From what I hear, yes, microsoft's system of "renting" movies to you seems rather sketchy. But so long as digital delivery is handled fairly, like valve, sony and apple all seem to be doing, I don't think there are any problems at all.

Spenze

Seriously though isn't XBL kinda already doing this with movies.

B1S1

gr1f1th

I should mention (to inform this opinion) that I dislike renting games, and only purchase games I know I'll love and/or play more than once.

Sustenance

noliferuin (PSN+XBL)

$Bill$G$

thadwhit

If you want to try a game out, you download a preview version. If you like it, the system downloads the rest of the game and you're ready to go. If you want to play the game at a friends house, you can de-authorize your system's copy, and then download it (or carry it via removeable media) over there and authorize it through your account credentials.

Sentientv2

Gadgetron

If you speak it, they will listen. Bury this article. Keep it secret! Keep it safe!!!

Black_Ops_19

For all of you who say "it'll never work! people want discs!," look to the music industry. If people want discs so badly, why is the iTunes store the #3 music retailer in the US, behind only Best Buy and Wal-Mart? Despite all the DRM and hardware-locking, people are clearly going the way of digital transactions over physical media.

I like the idea of pre-ordering MGS4, and having it automatically downloaded and waiting on my PS3 when I get home from work. No late shipments, no defective disks, no lines at the store.

Steel_Pelican

Secondly, I like shiny boxes sitting on the shelf.

Third, we will all get nickel-and-dimed to death. Look at the XBLVM. Man, I can't believe I paid $4 for each episode for the entire series of Ghost in the Shell: SAC. Anyone else get ripped on that one? For a DVD I could have bought for around $30-40 I ended up paying over $100 on XBL and I don't even fully own the content as I would if I bought the DVD. Heres to paying more for less!

cybereality

kosikutioner

i reckon it would be nice to have rent-to-buy... liek if you'd rented something twice you are quite likely to buy it, and that shouldn't mean you end up paying 20% more for the game.

mind you i can see publishers just getting rid of free demos and simply using them as the starter pack...

comedy

As for the selling of licenses...how about no, Scott? That is all sorts of complicated, and I'd imagine a legal nightmare. This is especially true with open platforms such as the PS3's, where competing OSes might let you crack the DRM. *coughs* PSPhomebrew *coughs* Not that it'd be any less true for a rental, but at least with a rental you could have a deadman's switch that deletes the game content (but not the save) if a person chooses not to buy the DLC.

killingdrew

Yes, digital distribution can, and most likely will happen within the next few years. But it's not like physical media is just going to go away, these companies will obviously still be shipping games to stores for a long time.

mva5580

When they start limiting the days you have with your downloaded games you'll finally say "Why oh why did we ever let digital distribution take off!?"

Doomstink

Digital Rentals will fail and infuriate customers and hackers will find a way around the copyright schemes making the rentals not a viable business model. Right?

kwan

kefkakrazy

y2kenjination

umm, no, thanks?

yuoma

I mean can you imgaine all the people that would be out of the job because of this new approach to game distribution.

Although I guess you can argue its already past the point where this wouldn't interrupt lifes of many current employees.

doing

but having to rent them, with no way to buy it? never...

QC8472

DRM issues causing you to lose all access to said movie/game if your system fails.

Whether or not you'll be able to physically transport said movie/game about on flash media (thumb drive, memory card, whatever). I buy a movie, I want to go to a friend's house an watch it.. will I be able to? If the answer is no to digital content, then wanting a physical format is very valid.

Formats changing and becoming obsolete. Not a *huge* issue, and still valid with physical media, but it's still a larger worry with digital media. Look at the problem with backwards compatibility in gaming already.

Getting rid of physical media isn't just an issue about wastefulness, selfishness, or stupidity in any way, shape or form. It's an issue about having a way to make sure that you can carry your media with you and have more freedom to play whenever, wherever, you wish.

Current download models limit this quite badly. *IF* they were to change and you were given fuller capacity to transfer said media to portable memory devices, then yes, you have a point. Personally, in this age where companies are gleefully rubbing their hands together at the prospect of making all kinds of "per viewing" revenue, I just don't see it becoming reality. Hence people's wishes for a physical media format to remain valid.

MrBionic

Say for example a monthly fee. Say you pay X a month and can download and play every game in the library as much as you want. If you want a real copy of the game pay an additional X and they send you a retail version possibly with added art, extras and so on. They did this with Warhawk. Doesn anyone know the DL % over retail purchase %?

Pigmartyr

chugger1992

DefDealer

Lyrai

Prediction: In about 5 years, Xbox Live Gold/PSN 2.0, $30 a month, unlimited games from a constantly updated library. Continuous revenue stream for publishers, eliminates the rental and used market.

aka Bitter

Spenze

JulesGreen

In this current model of digital distribution, how would you take care of that. As it stands, content downloaded from XBL is tied to your gamer tag, at least as I understand it. Plus, who wants to have to wait for a game to be downloaded again in order to play it? As it stands, if you have a download going in the background on the 360, and you begin a multiplayer game, the download stops.

Little things like that, as well as a high speed internet infrastructure need to be worked out before we can really look into full digital distribution. Our current high speed infrastructure in America can not sustain it.

TheAngryHeretic

Here's the troubling version of that question: "How long until DLC is ONLY for rental?" I really believe they (meaning Microsoft, various publishers, etc.) eventually want to get to the point where we don't permanently own any games anymore. They could have tiered 'Gametap' type options, renting a given game for various periods, having a deal where you can have up to, oh, five games at a time for a fixed monthly fee (a la Netflix), and so on.

Live Arcade and Virtual Console, e.g., are already putting us on that path, as the content we 'purchase' is only available for our gamertag or on our specific console. I really don't like where this is going.

jollydwarf

I'm A Gamer Type Guy!!

I fear for the future of gaming. =(

Overlord44

I use Steam for absolutely all my PC game purchases now, it's easy to use, easy to manage my games with, and easy to uninstall/reinstall them. If there was something comparable on consoles I'd use that as well.

People need to get over their obsession with the tangible. We live in a digital age, buying a disk because it FEELS more real is selfish, wasteful and stupid.

Spenze

K-OSS

But for the purchasing of games, you're talking about something entirely different, something that would change the industry as a whole, and would essentially put a place like Gamestop out of business.

Now the part about Gamestop going out of business, I like. A LOT. But for as much as people like Sony/MS/whoever claim that used game sales are hurting them, they would also be hurt pretty bad by a place like GS going away, because then who are they going to have peddling their wares out to the public? Who's pushing the pre-orders? Who's talking customers into buying certain games? You almost entirely lose the word-of-mouth method of sales, because you're talking about secluding your customers in their homes rather than going out and having one of those "impulse" purchases at the store. Yes, they could obviously still happen online, but you get the idea.

And then of course from the consumer side, it's more convenient to just buy something from your TV, but A) I could probably drive to the store, buy the game, drive back, take a shower, eat dinner, and watch a football game in the time it would take for a full game to download, and B) You're totally erasing used games from the marketplace, and that is where a HUGE amount of people buy their games. Think about how many parents who probably flat refuse to buy a game new, and instead just wait for the price to drop 20 bucks. And of course all the people with their own income who just buy off of ebay, craigslist, GS, or wherever.

I don't think it's even necessarily the idea of "I want physical media" in the sense of just having something tangible. It's the freedom people are allowed to have with that piece of physical media once you have it, and in the video games industry that is a HUGE deal. You take that option away for people, and all of a sudden you're talking about game sales going down a great deal, because now everyone has to buy every game new. I really think that would have a gigantic effect on the industry, and probably would bring sales across all consoles far down closer to the PC range, where the situation is essentially the same. Yes you can buy PC Games on ebay, but A) you can't rent PC games, and B) there is no store mass-market store which sells used PC games, only small non-chain stores.

So as much as you may think MS/Sony want digital distribution for their games, I also believe they're smart enough to realize that there would be very big negatives to it as well.

mva5580

Think about it, there is a reason you can not purchase a movie online, all you can do is rent it. If movies go hardcore digital distribution, stores like WalMart and Target are going to bitch and moan, and they have enough weight to have some serious backlash against the movie industry.

The same goes for the gaming industry. There was a story that was actually posted on kotaku a while back. It talked about how GameStop was pissed because Sony put Warhawk out on the PSN before it hit retail shelves. I think that early period was only a couple of days, but it was enough that Gamestop told Sony that they had to buy back the unsold copies on media from them. And Sony did. At least according to the kotaku story.

So I have to disagree with ssjmichael when he says that digital distribution only eliminates re-selling games and rentals. There is a much larger window of backlash than just rentals and re-sells.

TheAngryHeretic

TheAngryHeretic

Furthermore, game companies hate that Gamestop sells used copies of their games for basically 100% profit. Last year alone used sales accounted for hundreds of millions of dollars of gross revenue for Gamestop and no additional revenue for the game companies.

While I'm not entirely sure if the tradeoff between losing full sales vs. gaining rental sales works in the long run, with basic infrastructures in place (GameFly/XBLA/PSN/WiiWare for the consoles and Steam/GFW for PCs), it could work and end up increasing the bottom line for developers/publishers. Just a thought.

code.monkey

@TheAngryHeretic: do a lot of your friends mail their games to you? I mean if they are going to just try it out couldn't they play it at your place for this type of model. Especially if they like it and buy it.

If digitally downloaded rentals work like gamefly, in the manner that you pay a certain fee every month to rent a game for as long as you like, then I could see this working. Digital downloads also take up less real world space, multiple games on 1 hdd. They could even give you an option to purchase the game disc if need be.

A Disc on demand would be an interesting idea too. I mean if the rental company also took the role of publishing the actual disc only when people wanted it, wouldn't that be good even for developers. What happens to those games that never get sold anyway?

kryzhal

Lokno

I'm A Gamer Type Guy!!

Essentially, your "used" license idea is pretty much a bust when it comes to games.

I can purchase "used" licenses of excruciatingly expensive computer programs (not games) from other people privately, so long as they've fully deactivated their licenses first. However, the company that sold them the product in the first place isn't making a dime on the sale, which would immediately create a problem for the gaming model. Given how publishers are crying foul over GameStop's used game profits, going virtual in a private network (like Live) would guarantee the death of the used game. The best that gamers could hope for is a drop in price as a game ages in similar fashion to map-packs today.

Having said this, there is a way to deal with the issue of taking your game/movie to a friend's house: the license key. For example, Cubase 4 (a music creation and editing program) allows me unlimited installs on as many computers as I want, regardless of OS. However, a small USB key must be inserted to run the program. Naturally, pirates get around this protection, but the'll get around everything eventually.

However, imagine a simple "Live Key" wherein it is more than just a memory card, but contains all your licenses for everything you ever buy. I don't currently own a memory unit for the 360, so I don't know how much of my Gamertag stuff I can transport to someone else's house. If this has already been done, then simply expand on this.

bassbeast

Gadgetron

I'm A Gamer Type Guy!!

When i pay full price for something i want to own it, share it with my friends, keep it for forever, sell it to gamestop or ebay, most of all i don't want to have to worry about it no longer being available.

This whole idea of playing a game beating it and deleting it off my harddrive is stupid. i still go back and play snes games, i don't want to have to rebuy chrono trigger everytime i want to play it. Nor do i want it to be stuck on my harddrive so my friend can't check out a game i loved but doesn't have the money to afford or was skeptical on playing.

As for digital rentals sure i wouldn't mind that at all it's cheap and easier then even online rental shops and they are things i don't keep. But anything i buy and own i don't ever want in a digital form unless it's just a distraction like XBLA and PSN titles.

Spoony

DLC is a rental as it is now, and that sucks.

Lately people have been talking about how much they love Rez, and still dig it out and play it from time to time. That's not going to happen with Rez HD or any of its downloadable contemporaries - once the support for this generation of consoles is up, if your console breaks, the game is gone. No disc to track down on eBay, no online account to log into, it's just gone - until the game company decides to re-release it at full retail price - because what's it competing with? There is no alternative!

fuchikoma

Also, how feasible would it be to offer downloadable rentals when we're lucky to see one new demo a week on XBL/PSN?

HalfJapanese

LittleBigPlaneteer

fuchikoma

I don't see it being far more profitable. Will it be cheaper than producing physical copies? Yes. Will it sell better than physical copies would in retail stores? Absolutely not! In that perspective how would it be more profitable. The majority (keyword here) of people still want something they can keep forever. They don't want an all digital collection, especially one they can't even keep forever or use the way they want (DRM blows). You really shouldn't downplay the significance of physical media, it's here to stay for many years to come. Now having an option between the two might be okay, but not the way Mark is proposing here.

LittleBigPlaneteer

But on this subject, I would love to have something like this...one I get a system with a hard drive, lol. In case you guys and girls havent realized...I have a Wii! YES!!!!

I'm A Gamer Type Guy!!

The problem for them is that retailers are where people buy stuff. And that is never, ever going to change. Downloading may be supplementing retail sales to a certain extent, but I've seen no evidence whatsoever that they're replacing retail sales. I mean, physical game sales are still increasing, even while Xbox Live, PSN and the Virtual Console have become popular.

Look what happens to download-only games: nothing. How many people bought Tekken 5? This is one of the top fighting games in the world, and the newest iteration barely even registered. Ditto for Warhawk, which only really took off when Sony finally caved and put it in a box and released it to stores.

Downloading probably sounds like a nice idea in theory, but it just doesn't work as a primary business model. And we're not moving in a direction where it will, anymore than the fact that the government would like to cut out expensive oil as a source of energy is causing people to stop buying cars and telecommute instead. People like cars, and they're not going to give them up without a fight.

Ditto for physical media, or really physical sales of anything. *Where* somebody buys things can change, but what and how they buy really can't. I think it's pretty deep-seated in the human psyche - we need a physical thing to feel like we own something. Otherwise it's like we're paying for thin air. Software programs are nebulous, they're ideas. Discs are physical products. We buy physical products, not ideas.

badasscat

Virgil Tibbs

Since Gametap hasn't gone out of business yet, digital game rental must have SOME market.

*Sorry, I don't remember how big Bluray is right now to give me the big end and I'm too lazy to look it up. Work with me here ;-).

NateN

nerdBOY01

globones

Furious_Liver

While I had the affinity for physical boxes and jewel cases, last two year of acquiring PC gaming has changed my principal.

Fyren

Vecha

Steam does that well :)

As for this rental thing... I say boo-urns to that. If I spend money on something to rent, I want a hard copy. Not something that 'deactivates'.

FrigidAir44

"... imagine this simple system: you buy a game for 100 points, sell it for 50 points, and buy a used games for 75. So what's the catch? You can't sell a used game, and you only get sale points credited if something buys your game."

This is a silly idea. Given that all DLC copies would be completely equivalent upon download, who in their right mind would buy an "unused" copy? And the convenience of immediately getting your pay for selling used copies is exactly why people would sell their games to Gamestop instead of on eBay. No, a better system would allow all purchasers to sell the game license directly back to the publisher for a fixed price.

Toasticus

I don't really buy games at, maybe once a year. I rent all my games.

nerdBOY01

Let them both exist, but I'm not ready to completly move into digital downloads only, ask me again in 5years, maybe 10. In the end, if and when this goes through it will hurt the consumers the most, same prices no re-sale or gifts etc. Not to mention storage and internet speeds. I don't want this, especially now or soonish.

Irenicus-the one and only

Gadgetron

Digital distribution writes those factors out of the equation, as there's no difference between a 'new' and 'used' download, if it's certified un-altered. (code-wise)

since the current platform for distribution is relatively closed to outside tampering (XBL, PSN, Steam), the 'certification' of it being authentic is readily feasible.

if any kind of after-market trading goes on, i see it as an ebay-style bidding or like the faux-market in online games like FFXI, where supply and demand dictate how much you can re-sell it for.

jgross

Yep. This would be a pretty bad business move. It simply wouldn't be as profitable for companies to do. Physical media is always going to sell more. They wouldn't set up ways to block any potential sales by making it easier to rent such games.

LittleBigPlaneteer

My one worry is that downloadable rentals will *replace* hard-copy 'ownership', making it nigh-on impossible to take a favorite movie over to a friend's place for a movie night, et al. I can see it happening as well. Money rules, and if the people in charge can get $5 *per viewing* instead of $30 for something a person can watch whenever, and wherever, they want.. how long do you think that hard-copy system is going to last?

Doomsday thinking I guess, but it's worrisome.

MrBionic

liquid_kore

kennyd1

No offense but it is a terrible idea. And I buy most all of my games new. Most people want to "own" things, not rent, and I honestly haven't seen digital delivery of games take off that much for non arcade things, people like having boxes and manuals, but most of all, they like having a physical copy of the disc that will (hopefully) work and be there regardless of what happens to their system, or gamertag, or whatnot, and that in some future might even appreciate or even just retain a portion of its value, which can be transferred to others on sale.

I would ask too, why would the publishers allow people to sell to other people at all? Wouldn't it also sort of undercut their main avenue of income (selling games?) How would this value be transferred and who'd decide how much you can ask for your used games?.

And how would it be converted to money? Would you get MS points, or valve points, or wii points, or some other meaningless, non transferrable currency of value only if you want to get more games from company X (which would no doubt be their preferred solution).

And well, why would anyone pay for a "used" license to begin with?.

I guess it might work for some people, but if movie rentals are any indication, it wouldn't for most.

Seiryuu

Mark Wilson

photoboy

Monger King

Furthermore, to stop hard copy rentals from happening in the future, game companies will have DOWNLOAD ONLY purchase.

nerdBOY01

Also, take a game like Lair. I thought Lair was an ok game. And now it is only $30 at GameStop if I buy it used. $30 is an acceptable price to me for a game that is just ok. $60 is not.

And maybe I am lucky, I have been to 5 GameStops in Atlatna, GA and have never had or seen the problems that I see people post about them a lot.

TheAngryHeretic

TheAngryHeretic

LittleBigPlaneteer

pandafresh

Mark Wilson

Furious_Liver

Hills

Gadgetron

Deadeyereborn

vonfaustus

Deadeyereborn

Erwin

tkshredder