<![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil - Kotaku Comments]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil - Kotaku Comments]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> While his items were not worth $3800 because IGN said so, something still should be done.
What he should have filed charges for would be I.D. Theft. Just like accessing someones email is illegal they pretended to be him and undid years of work.

And if the cops wont help, kid needs to find the "friend" and beat the ever loving crap out of him. Theft is theft, virtual or physical.

-Kami

Oakami

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> I think he should've called up a GM in-game instead of the cops. They would've done something about it.

VipingViper

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> This is one reason why I don't like "capitalism". Our laws have too many holes, and does not ensure proper responsibility.

Then again, it's because our citizens are complete blithering idiots.

So, yeah. Companies want to kill off RMT. MMO's are getting hit by advertiser scripts (mostly fueled by trial accounts - I say do away with Trial accounts or limit their functionality), and worst of all...

The idea that in-game currency translates to real-world currency.

Come on. I mean, it's almost like trying to compare a pile of dog crap to the U.S. Dollar.

Games are meant to be enjoyed, not destroyed.

-NK

NKato

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> I'lld like to put a warrant out on Ukkiki from Mario, that bastard stole my hat. It completes the whole look. I'lld love to see that case on Judge Judy.

godballandcrank

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> Blizzard will return items if your account is hacked. The process takes months, but they will do it. Sony has everything logged. They should be dealing with this, not the government.

Actually, I'm still waiting on the 500 million an old schoolmate owes me for sinking my Battleship.

flackman

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> I can understand how he would be so annoyed. I would cry if that happened to me. Gil is really hard to come by in the game, and it can take hours to get some rare items.

But... going to the police seems a bit extreme. Maybe he should have tried to keep he details more private.

Neriek

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> the 'shot him dead' part was great. Would have made a killer story for national news

cerberus011

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> I used to play FFXI too, and it would certainly suck to have my character cleaned out by some jerk, but given the option of having my virutal gear have real world value and be taxed, or just have to make up for a lot of lost work (or quit, as I probably would) I'd rather not have to suffer any more ill-spent taxes. If it went towards universal healthcare, then sure. But chances are it'll go towards a failing war or something.

shay3838

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> @Ezekiel06: See you Monday!

Orwellian

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> Close the Damn Box.. Use anti-virus.. Don't use add-ons.. Don't make friends over the internet and if u do, dont give them your passwords..

Its Internet 101 all over again...

lapiz

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> Even if the police won't do anything, the victim could still sue the guy for Conversion of Chattel. I am pretty sure the laws on the books of the state he lives in would allow him to recover.

lawblob

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> LOL get a life.

Ezekiel06

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> This isn't a job for the police. The company running the software should, in the interest of providing their customers quality service, restore the items and reprimand the thief. A virtual punishment for a virtual crime. We need the police for crimes in reality where an administrator can't check a database and reset some 1s and 0s. There are days where I wish that virtual criminals would be nailed to the wall. But really, they are only an inconvenience, they can't do real irreparable damage.

pluckylump

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> This isn't a job for the police of the Corporeal world
it's a job for the administrators, the police of that world
plus, he could always just kick that guy's ass (I would, but that's just me)

Zombie_Moogle

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> @VakeroRokero: I think you're missing the point here. While in a sense Monopoly and FF XI (and WoW) are both "games," that's pretty much where the semantic similarity ends. People are willing to buy, sell, and trade commodities in these virtual worlds with real world cash with great frequency and regularity.

It's my argument that at a certain point, this really starts to blur the line between a transaction of exchanging "real world" currency (let's say dollars to euros or to make the analogy easier let's say that you want to purchase a holding in gold because it's a good, steady investment) and exchanging virtual currency similarly. Both are fiat currencies with value only ascribed by the market with fluctuations according to supply/demand and vulnerable to inflation. Both are, as described in this story, vulnerable to theft.

Where do we draw the line? This is no longer someone walking home from your house having pocketed a $500 Monopoly bill for next time, especially if the thief can turn around and resell.

Orwellian

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> can't he just go to sqeenix and tell them "yo dog somebody jacked mah shit" then they'd be like "wickity BAM" and give it all back to him like magic?

blizzard does it all the time.

relax_guy

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> Once I lost a WHOLE BLOCK OF HOUSES playing Monopoly when I was younger.
never got them back.
If I still had them I would probably be a real state mogul or collect a lot a money renting them for SoHo or web companies.

VakeroRokero

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> I agree with the response of the police department. Virtual currency is not real money, and it is up to the company running the game to resolve any disputes over stolen or deleted virtual goods in their game. Blizzard does this incredibly well (recently my friend had his account information stolen and his character deleted, but Blizzard was able to recover everything for him). Furthermore, it's likely that this person's account information was obtained due to a lapse of judgment on his part, whether it be downloading shady programs off the internet or sharing his account information freely with others.

As a side note, the day our government deems virtual currency equivalent to real money is the day they start taxing us for it.

dominonation

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> @Delmania: The traditional ToS/EULA puts the onus on the account holder, if you made people "agree" that they were the account holder when the play the game it would also allow recourse against a user who is not the account holder.

aaa

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> An item has a value as long as someone is out there who will pay for your item.
What gives Beanie Babies value? What gives an un-opened figure of an original Star Wars figurine value? The fact that there are collectors out there willing to pay for them.
If you have a very nice fantasy sword on an MMO that no one wants, then it has no value. But if someone is suddenly willing to pay $20 for it, then it has a value. $20. An online virtual market with competition for sales keeps prices to a near-constant, but possibly different from server to server within any given game. If the value for the kid's stuff sells at such and such value, and it is possible for him to go online and offer his items for that much, then what he lost in theft was indeed what he was robbed for.
If he could liquidate all hi virtual goods and walk away the the amount he said he lost, then yes, he's been robbed.

HappyWulf

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> At least this wasn't Russia, or that "shot him dead" would be true.

Ryadic

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> @SnakeCL: Vautrin? Was that a Balzac reference?

Madeira

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> Just because you can acknowledge somethings worth doesn't mean it will be taxed!!!!!!!! Case in point if you build a boat or painting, you pay taxes on the materials but the labor is all you, that boat has worth and unless you sold it, it wouldn't be taxed. However it is still your property and if stolen would be filed as such. Same should go with virtual items of worth. You paid a tax when you bought the game, your labor translates into a virtual commodity exclusive to you. Also we have inherent rights, just because there is no law that uses the word "virtual" doesn't mean theft should be so easily permitted.

SwordandSorcery

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> ...wait....what happened to me?

I'm just fine people....stand down. ;-)

djgil

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> @Aaron_Sarazan: With US currency and most currencies around the globe, they are now fiat and have no physical wealth that backs them. Of course, Britain still has her pounds sterling, but really the idea of a value of a US dollar is really quite directly equivalent to the idea of a gil. The only difference is that you have the FDIC that backs the physical representation of one and the other is effectively corporate cash that can be spent at the company store.
@Delmania: Actually - at least in the case of VC games - you do not own that game, you are simply paying for access to it. Think of it more like a lease.@Delmania: This point is also not exactly correct, but it is mostly. Here's the glaring difference, though: property tax. If the value of your house goes up suddenly, you are stuck paying the higher annual property tax for it.

Finally, to everyone who's pointing out that the player here had no legal ownership of the data that he was using, I'd ask you to contemplate the case of someone who rents or leases a car. That person does not own that car, not even in part, but wouldn't that person be owed damages from the thief or vandal who would steal or damage it? Similarly, I do not own the flat I lived in but if someone made a copy of my key (possible) and walked in and damaged the apartment itself, wouldn't I be entitled to damages even if the landlord decided he wasn't going to pursue it?

It seems to me like there should be some kind of legal recourse here, no matter some fear of a relatively minuscule tax that has yet to be brought to fruition.

Orwellian

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> It is not a criminal matter, but it is a civil matter. Take his ass to Judge Judy and sue for everything back.

Hand_O_Death

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> @sigma7:

Where is Chuck Norris when you need him?!

Where he always is.

Right behind you.

doubtful

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> "virtual goods have no real monetary value"

Piracy for the win then, if the police say virtual items have no monetary value than anything from the internet is a virtual item right so therefore not worth a penny.

enigma776

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> Though his stuff may have been worth $3800, he didn't actually own it. The companies that own the MMORPGs own all of the virtual goods in the game (Says so in the EULA or TOS), the only exception being Second Life. The player is simply paying to use those goods.

Rauffle

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> Where is Chuck Norris when you need him?!

sigma7

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> Except in this case, $3800 is not $3800. Blaine did not own those items, and he did not buy them. The monetary value he used is not recognized by the gov't or SE.

Delmania

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> I don't care if it was a "friend" or a friend, if I knew who jacked that kind of virtual currency from me, I'd literally find him and beat his ass (IRL, LOL!) until he transfered it back to my account.

Say what you will about selling gold on eBay, four grand is four grand.

unmarkedone

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> @NOTALKJUSTROCK

Many games have a clause in which allowing someone else access to your account is a violation of the EULA and/or ToS, and thus, if you do it, the company will terminate the account.

Delmania

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> Actually, the items were not deleted. The items' records in the database were updated to reflect the new owner, and the game engine took over, ensuring that Blaine no longer "had" those items. However, the items were not deleted from the servers.

Delmania

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> I don't think there was theft, but there was unlawful use of his account. MMO companies should include in their terms of service that blah blah blah by logging in you represent that you are the account holder blah blah blah, so at least there can be some sort of fraud charge.

aaa

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> This isn't theft.

An MP3 is copyrighted. The person who owns the copyright has the legal right to prevent it from being copied. That is why it is illegal to download MP3's.

The items this person took were not stolen. They were copied to his account, and then deleted from the original account. Bits of data were copied from one location to another, they were never physically moved.

Since this fellow holds no copyright to the items he gathered in his MMORPG, he's shit out of luck.

Or is he?

The items may not have been STOLEN, but they were DELETED. If you bought a lot of MP3's online, and then someone deleted them, I'm sure there must be some computer crime involved with the deletion of data on one's PC. So that is what he would need to go after the guy with. Maybe in a civil court where he could recover damages of some kind.

Elliuotatar

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> there are no microtransactions in ffxi, you pay monthly to play, and thats it. There are some other services like transferring servers that cost money too, but that doesnt net you any currency, items, etc. The monetary value was derived from a currency selling site

Spiral

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> @Trendy . Ideology: Exactly correct, along with the others that have said this. The Terms of Service in the EULA of all MMO games states that the player does not own any assets within the game, and they remain the sole property of the developer/publisher. A player has no legal claim over any losses in a game world, because they never owned anything in the first place.

Blizzard, for instance, will recover items for you that are lost to system error, but when it comes to user error (giving your 'friend' your account?, or leaving them with a simple password to guess/crack) they've no sympathy. And I agree with them.

topcatticus

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> @brent_w:

Hence, why it would open a pandora's box to start treating the virtual items as real property with real value.

JRB

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> So did he purchase these items with real-world currency in a microtrans, or just earn them in the game while paying a monthly service fee? If he actually bought the items, I could see determining their worth as goods --- but if they're earned in game and not purchased, then no, there's no actual monetary value attached. And besides, I'll bet the EULA states that you own nothing in the game anyway...

Not really sure how FFXI works with real-world transactions aside from subscription fees -- and it would be cool to mention in the post that this is about FFXI, I had no clue what game this post referred to until reading a few comments.

Gavelwrench

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> The difference is that the company whose code Mitkin copied owned the software. By copying and distributing a piece of software like that, the company counts those are who took a copy as lost revenue, because in theory those people would have purchased the software.

In this case, the legal owner of these items, Square Enix did not lose the items, nor did they lose an investment made in getting those items.

Delmania

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> The issue is not with owning the items. The IRS will not tax you for a TV or jewelry because you did not make money on those items. If you purchased a piece of jewelry for $50, had it appraised, and the value was $1000, you would need to pay taxes on that $950, because that is income. But, if you don't sell the jewelry, there's nothing they can tax because you don't have the actual money.

The taxation on virtual items is more of taxation on the transactions of buying, selling, and trading virtual items. If I traded a sword that is worth 20 USD for a sword that is 40 USD, I would need to pay taxes on the that 20 USD. However, if I got an epic sword that was $300 on my character from a boss, the IRS would not charge me for. It is only in the cases where the monetary value becomes relevant that the taxation would occur.

Delmania

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> What's the difference between this and Kevin Mitnick? He was prosecuted for over $80 million in losses when he copied a $100 program.

peztrip

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> @doubtful:

*slow clap* AWESOME reference, that'll probably go over quite a few heads tho...

SnakeCL

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> I feel bad for the guy that got his stuff stolen, and I think that there should be repercussions toward his supposed "friend" for what he did. I see this as somebody stealing credit, its not "real", its "virtual", so why should it matter if somebody stole your credit card and used it up?

My point is that Mr. Luurs should be recompensed for his loss of an investment in time and money.

Pancho_Villasan

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> Three easy words about online gaming: "Never trust anyone".

As the old adage says: "A fool and his money (even virtual) are soon parted."

StarkRavingMad

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> The IRS can't really tax you for owning goods can they? Like if you own jewelry, do you have to tax them? Or a TV (besides the TV license)? Or collector's items like wine, stamps and comics? I think not.

So owning weapons worth stuff in MMORPG wouldn't mean jack squat to the IRS.

FallenAngelII

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> Did this guy actually spend $3800 in microtransactions? If not, then the alleged "value" of the Gil is highly doubtful. It sounds most like he's going for a grey market valuation of his "goods." Which is ludicrous.

It's like asking the cops to arrest a thief who has stolen your Monopoly money. Short of some rare Monopoly $50 bill that you bought at an auction, and therefore had a pre-estimated value, you'd be pretty hard pressed to bring criminal charges upon them.

(Happy Ending: Police shooting both parties.)

crapsh00t

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> This particular Blaine is in MN.

flackman

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> @WreckTheLaw: Welcome back! We have missed you.

Witzbold

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> So true...No Tax

daisukeumon

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> Actually, when I think about it...

Virtual funds are not legal tender, so the exchange of them is not the exchange of currency, but of a commodity.

If, IRL, you give your friend a chair, can the government tax the chair your friend receives? Is your friend required to report the estimated value of the chair and pay income tax on that value?

Koztah

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> If the government wants a cut of virtual funds, they can get it in virtual funds.

Or in mana potions!

Koztah

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> Those downloaded games have an established monetary value, and you do, in fact, own those copies of the game. So the value would be added as if you owned the boxed games, so long as you can prove you bought them.

Delmania

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> How the hell did he get a hold of the guys username and password? Thats just shitty security. Sure it is still 'theft' in the general sense of the word, but if you lose your key and somebody walks in and takes ur stuff, its not exactly breaking and entering. Besides, it just gives him a reason to grind more. That still sux.

San

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> Here's a question: say someone steals your PS3, and you had 20 or so games DL'd from the PSN store. Would the value of those be added to the overall value of your system? If they were boxed games, you'd certainly add the value if they were stolen.

This is somewhat off topic, but relevant in the terms of "paid-for" DLC.

zeezee

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> To say it's not a box that we need to be opening is honestly irrelevant, as it will invetibably be opened someday-- it's merely a question of when.

Moreover, the entire concept of the dollar itself is merely an abstraction to represent a more concrete form of capital being held in a vault somewhere, anyway; so why all the hate for something that just takes that level of virtuality up a notch?

I'll close out by simply stating that somebody maliciously broke into another person's secure property, and stole things that this person worked hard over a long period of time to acquire.

You don't begrudge somebody an investigation if their jewelry box is broken into. Somebody lost something that they value dearly, and it should be treated as such.

Aaron_Sarazan

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> @RADIATION

The problem is that no data was lost from the company that owns the data. The data is still on Square Enix's servers, and SE itself is not intentionally prohibiting the player access to it.

By your example, I could ask the police to force everyone on my server in WoW to give me their gold because I am being denied access to data.

Delmania

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> Briefly, I do think it's a box that needs opening. While the virtual goods and money are in a virtual space, then they shouldn't be taxed, but once converted, and therefore a form of income, they need to be.

WreckTheLaw

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> @3INST3IN

Your personal opinion does not change reality. To paraphrase the EULA, "all in game entities, including, but not limited to characters, monsters, and items, and all references, likenesses, and derivative works are the sole property of Square Enix" That means from a legal perspective, SE not only owns everything in Vana'diel, but Vana'diel itself AND the kitchen sink.

Your IBM example is also irrelevant. That source code was paid for by IBM, the company owns it. Of course if it was stolen from them they would ask the police to investigate it, it's a legal matter. Much like if someone stole the source code for FFXI from Square.

Delmania

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> Clearly his only recourse at this point is to escape from prison, assume a new name and identity and make his way up through Parisian society, slowly using his enemies sins to bring them down, one by one.

doubtful

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> I get what Mike what saying,(box we want to open?) But I see it as data loss. In the big biz world stealing data or keeping one from accessing data is a crime and causes massive amounts of losses that equate to real money and real time. I feel for the kid and he was wronged, Just wish he had another ave, to take.

Radiation

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> I think you're wrong brother. Monetary value is assigned to an object based on what people are willing to pay for it. A loaf of bread has no monetary value if you can't get anyone to pay you for it. If I can get some guy to pay me 3800$ for virtual armor, you better believe that shit is worth 3800$.

and fyi, ibm stockpiles virtual weapons. it's called computer code, and when people steal that, you better believe the police and legal ssystem are all over it. the fact that this guy didn't "invent" his bits of code, doesn't mean he doesn't own them. he payed a software company that made them for him. now he owns them. jsut happend to be an incredible investment that something he paid 50$ for is now worth 3800$

3inst3in is all up in your relativistics.

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> PS: I think there might be more of a civil case here than a criminal one.

mechawatts

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> My house in Ultima Online was break into twice, everything was stolen or left out door. One time all my chest was trapped with explosive and killed me when I open it. The thief was near by watching too.

paraaya

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> The value isn't in the item or data itself, but the prerequisite labor. Labor (at least in my home state) is non-taxable.

For example: If I carve wood for a living, the work I do designing and carving still has value, even if I'm only leasing the wood.

mechawatts

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> @soundgarden: Agreed. I'd rather the police track down murderers, rapists, and muggers - you know, the ones that might cause physical harm to me or the people I care for.

@mentally_unstable: I'd like to think we can make a distinction between virtual (e.g. items in an MMO) and intangible (e.g. artistic creations). Just because a song can be stored as a series of 1s and 0s on a hard drive does not make it virtual, in my mind.

Of course, the line tends to blur from time to time. Spending hundreds of hours leveling a character and obtaining uber gears in an MMO is not an artistic work - you're simply choosing from a finite set of options the game code gives you. Spending dozens of hours creating a design in Forza Motorsport 2, on the other hand, is a legitimate artistic work (well, it can be), as you are using a palette of shapes and colors to create a unique creation.

seafisch

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> @Fitz Rhapsody: There was a Star Trek episode about that. 2 planets fought wars via the internet, and then citizens reported to death chambers if the computer said they were casualties.

Captain Kirk double axe-handled the 2 planets in the back and they learned war is bad.

wallapuctus

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> I do believe virtual theft should be punishable, seeing as it has value to its owner. Both monetary and the time spent earning it.

thebluick

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> SE's ToS indicate that they own all of the items/money in the game. Seeking damages for an online theft in an MMO like FFXI doesn't leave you much legal ground to stand on. And along those same lines, the police wouldn't have much ground to stand on towards investigating when it's SE that would actually have to press charges. And SE, to date, to the best of my knowledge, has yet to press any legal battles over online goods.

Trendy . Ideology

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> Let the men in blue continue to believe virtual goods have no real value. That way, we don't have to pay taxes on them, which is exactly what WILL happen if they decide otherwise.

killinggameshow

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> To tax in game items, ownership of the items would need to be legally transferred to the players, and then a monetary value would need to be established.

Then we watch as the MMO market collapses.

Delmania

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> While I understand your concern, Fahey, I disagree with your premise here. Virtual goods and items simply must have implicit value according to the market. As my father always told me (something I take to heart), "something's only worth what someone's willing to pay for it."

Would this story or the ensuing conversation have the same tone if it was WoW gold instead of FFXI gil? If these items have no value, then can someone be prosecuted for (if it were possible and done) pirating games from XBL, VC, or Steam? Let me give you another example even more disturbing. Here in the states, many people use computer programs to prepare their income taxes. If a save file from one of those programs was stolen, it could ruin the poor soul's life very quickly. If you ask me, the theft of that file itself is a crime even before they do something with the information.

I think it's equally dangerous to say that none of these "virtual" properties have any real-world value simply because they only exist digitally. It really is, though, a worthwhile conversation to have.

Orwellian

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> All he has to do is contact a CSR or GM and explain what happened. Most of the time they'll give you your stuff back.

gitrooman

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> @JRB: Actually,

That EULA you agreed to in order to play the game?

If you bother to read that, it explains that they own your account and everything in it.

You are simply paying for the right to play with their toys.

Thats why most MMO companies don't like the virtual good for real cash trade.

Thats like two people comming onto your playground and one selling the rights to your slide to another.

brent_w

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> Virtual Items = Data
Data is worth money. If not, the time invested in the creation of data certainly is. I don't want to even guess how many data entry professionals and server administrators exist based on this concept.

Way

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> I agree with Ara. It's not theft if none of it, in fact, belongs to you.

Hazzy

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> This sucks, but as stated before, he doesn't own it, GM's wont help if he gave his pasword to someone or lost it. It still sux though, what he needs is a baseball bat and a mean streak.

Irenicus-the one and only

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> I think all wars should be waged online. Then again, that never happened with soccer, so I guess asking that of gaming would be unrealistic.

Plus, then Japan and Korea would rule the world. Let's face it.

Fitz Rhapsody

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> I definitely don't want my virtual goods taxed. I've actually read some research papers about virtual world economies. I was shocked to find out that some virtual currency is worth more than some countries' real world currency when converted. Interesting site here. [swi.indiana.edu]

vizual3y3z

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> If someone hacked blizzards servers and wiped everything clean, i'm sure blizzard would pursue legal charges. i think thats what he meant by the "ibm" analogy. for all we know, the guy used a keylogger to steal his roomates password. i dunno if paying for the goods is appropiate, but it should be considered "hacking" or something like that

=O

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> The virtual goods ultimately belong to Square Enix,

Virtual goods/currency has no LEGALLY recognised real world value, and is effectively controlled and distributed by Square.

So it comes down to Square Enix to police/settle 'virtual theft' or 'virtual crime' that occurs within FFXI, NOT the police or the governments. In effect Square IS the government of FFXI in this case, any external involvement by enforcement agencies could ONLY be done based on a breach of contract, the EULA (The Law Of The Land dum dum dum!!!), the formal contract between the subscriber and the government (Square Enix).

Thats my 2 pence.

charsuipau

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> The police are correct in that the stolen items have no monetary value. The EULA for many online games state that all in-game entities, such as characters and items, are fully owned by the company. The user's is paying a monthly subscription to access the service. Legally, nothing was stolen, except Blaine's time invested in acquiring those items. The thing is, if it can be shown that Blaine willingly shared his account information with his friend, his account could be terminated as well, since that it also a violation of the ToS.

Delmania

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> @ara: Sorry, correction to that. Don't know where I got the impression that the account holder told the user/pswd to his friend. Time to take a nap it seems.

ara

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> If he was stolen without giving his account name and password I would be sorry for him.

"hey dudes here´s my credit card number tee hee!"

doh.

Wyld

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> @Ampillion lives a life much like No More Heroes.: True, account violation is different case. This can be called social engineering and the charge should be hacking. Or something.

ara

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't virtual goods already taxed in a way? I mean if I go buy gold from IGE, that becomes income for them and they have to pay taxes on it right?

I understand the fear of owing Uncle Sam some cash every time you loot an epic but I think the real world application is you're taxing services.

IGE doesn't provide a good, they provide a service. You pay for their time grinding gold or items or levels. It's the same as buying and account from a private seller. You're buying a service from them, the service of playing up this character.

It's a little weird in that you're paying for something already done, and it does seem like the provider is selling a tangible thing. But I really think treating it like a service and not goods is the way we're going (have gone) in this case.

wallapuctus

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> Um...does he know that if he contacts Square Enix, they'll take care of it?

Pai Pai Master

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> @z357x, su.: Ok, then I'll turn to Big-Sis Prinny, I'll sacrifice my sexuality to the cause!

Automageddon!

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> If they were to tax virtual goods and gold, then they should receive virtual game money. Then the government could build heavily armored armies, virtually. No sense in giving them real money when you don't really have any official means to make real money out of it yourself. It's like playing console rpgs and being taxed because you found gold in a chest, in-game. Sheesh.

Padder

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> I guess you can say that I "virtualy care"..... My caring is kinda real, but not really real....

Mr.SithNinja

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> @Automageddon: The guy with the Orange prinny is a Prinny Capitan. Prinny Gods are more gold-ish in colour.

What we need is a big-sis prinny, and a Gordon, Jennifer, Thursday, Etna, and Flonne (Maybe 2).

z357x

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> I fear the day the government starts to tax video game items, Cause it means that the end is near. If they tax you for what you have, what happens to the companies that have the servers that contain all the items? what about the monsters that drop them? do we tax them too? If the government taxs video game property it is basically telling me that Dragons do exist and therefore are taxable(miricle on 34th street agurement).

It is never going happen, though this article did make me laugh.

jwitt

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> OmGz sum1 haxx0red ma gilz!

Krytha

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> when it comes down to it though it's FFXI. If he's played that game for long enough to get that much value, then he now has an excuse to upgrade to WoW.

Blizzard is good about this stuff and would have probably replaced his character.

Back to the main issue though, no they should not tax this stuff. If they did, then it would be a safeguard for people who get their accounts stolen, but at the same time thats why you are smart about this stuff and avoid downloading mods, clicking on links/ads on non-official websites, and giving your passwords to your 'friends'.

What happened to this guy is he did something that wasn't "MMO-smart" and he paid the price for it.

fenderfuel08

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> virtual goods have no real value eh?

guess that means piracy is legal. guess that means no laws can exist to protect intellectual property.

guess that means patents have no legal value.

mentally_unstable

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> @ara: While that might be the case, it should still be a crime to access someone else's account without their permission. That would be like saying that any other account that you paid for, that you maintained, could be compromised without punishment. I'm betting that if you, let's say, swiped a superior's login at a place of business and started screwing around with their work or the company's data assets, there'd be some arresting involved.

The company owning the game should also, in good will, replace things that are stolen and destroyed in this manner, especially if someone goes through the effort to make a police report. It's not like they can't do a few minutes of research to see the guy isn't trying to scam them for free stuff, and click a few keystrokes to make it reappear.

Ampillion, Dayman. Fighter of the Nightman.

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> I'm unable to fully describe my displeasure with the situation - not with the way the police handled it, either.

Account security is the owner's responsibility. I'm unsure how Luurs' friend gained access to his account, but most often it's because his username/password was stored in an unsecured location (which is dumb) or because Luurs chose to share his account info (which is also dumb). Maybe, MAYBE his friend keylogged his system, but again that's something he's responsible for.

I'm not without sympathy, but going to the police with this is kind of silly since not all of the MMO companies that actually hold ownership over the virtual property offer reimbursals, it's unlikely the police will do anything, either.

Aldashin

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> We have a prinny, Kurtis, a Prinny God and Laharl, do I see a pattern here?
By the way, this post is a bit out of topic...

Automageddon!

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> @GeckoUK: You bring up a really interesting point there. If a game item doesn't have monetary value, can a computer file really have any?

Yin

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> You lose. No /Panic picture?.

Onto the topic. I don't understand how you can have zero common sense. His method is effective as Tide, which I have found this weekend; it is not very effective.

Fyren

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> "No, of course they didn't. Explaining that virtual goods have no real monetary value, they refused to do anything."

Bullshit. I take it that no one from the Blaine, Wisconsin police dept. have ever been in the market for high level WoW characters before.

rmeehan17

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> @Gouki4u:

I always agree with Vigilante justice.

grecords

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> If the government was going to tax it (MMO transactions), they need to implement a secure trading site for MMO transactions. That way, they can track stolen goods easier as most buyers would demand the usage of a safe 3rd party / government to regulate these transactions. All buyers would demand it as they would be protected from losing items that need to be returned cause they were stolen. Sellers would use it as people can tip of about stolen goods and defending themselves in court would cost, well, a whole lot of money.

angry_gamer

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> nothing against the dood, but he shoulda changed his password..
yeah i know the guy was his friend and stuff..
if you ever give out your password for any reason,
you should change it right after that person is done...

xtraman

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> The law has failed. The only answer now is vigilante justice.

Sure this guy got away with stealing, but if stealing virtual property is made a prosecutable crime it opens the door to all kinds of unpleasant possibilities.

It also could just be a matter of numbers. The RIAA sues people for having a ton of MP3s, and those are intangible.

I really don't know where to stand on this.

Gouki4u

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> I do think people should be able to launch a criminal investigation when someone steals an MMO account. This becomes especially true considering the government wants to / is already taxing ebay sellers.

angry_gamer

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> I can relate. My little brother deleted my Oblivion save game, I nearly went to the police about that!

GOD

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> They've considered taxing game items already, but thought better of it for now. Still, it's irrefutable that they have real world value because... you can go sell them for real world cash without even making a great effort to find a buyer. If they tax any part of it though, it should be those transactions. I know I've never bought or sold a game item, but as weak a move as I think it is, I can't deny the potential cash value of these items.

fuchikoma

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> And that's why you never share your account info, folks.

iamnotdryad

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> Technically shouldn't this bring up point that people who sell MMO equipment are illegitimate?

z357x

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> @Sparx88: Actually, right now Final Fantasy 11 is being hit hard with advertising scripts (everyone should use Firefox and noscript!). Advertisers include scripts that are tailored to rip off passwords from FF11 from legitimate web resource sites.

It's kinda equivalent to say going to a 3rd party news site like Kotaku or Wired and they rip your password to your Xbox live account.

angry_gamer

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> @GeckoUK: That's is a good point. I'm sure there's a legal difference, but I can't figure out what it is right now. When the RIAA comes after me, can I use this excuse?

Chemo

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> Anything that people will pay money for does indeed have a $ value. These items that were stolen qualify. Ridiculous? Maybe, but that doesn't make it untrue. That's where we are, and we aren't going back. Should the police have done something? That depends on what we as a culture value more. Justice for such crimes, or avoiding the injustice of taxing such items. I'd like to think that we can all see that leaving the law out of this is of greater benefit to more people. Not that our opinions count. The only reason we don't have laws yet is because politicians don't understand "virtual goods". All it takes is one go-getter in Washington to change all that and the next thing you know we'll all be claiming our virtual gold on our W-whatevers.

nomadder

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> It is a crime and should be investigated. But you know what else should be investigated? MMOs charging money for things.

Spoony Bard

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> I think the limited resources of law enforcement are better spent enforcing real money and real property instead of fictitious items that could be deleted at any time by the game's servers and moderators. Eventually, the servers for this game were going to be shut down and all the accounts closed, so it is not like he "owned" the products. If anything, he was just renting them from the game maker and had the right to use them. The second police start arresting people for stealing gil or killing players in-game, is the second I stop playing video games.

soundgarden

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> Well, nothing that was stolen was his property. Read the EULA. You own nothing of the MMO content, nothing.

ara

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> why would you give out an account name and password to anyone?
this guy is just plain stupid.

Gadgetron

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> Ummm, computer ettiquete 102: keep your password secret and something nobody could guess. This is his own fault, nothing more

This has to be 102 though, because as well all know 101 is always bring a rez =)

Sparx

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> time = money.

guess someone spent a fortune on that character and lost it all due to lack of security.

well, easy come, easy go!

Onizuka-GTO

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> Is an MP3 file an example of "virtual goods"?

Does it have a real monetary value?

GeckoUK

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> @generic_login: As soon as I read that I was like "Fahey wrote this."

NotAZombie

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> It's a pandora's box. The second you start acknowledging the implied value in MMO weapons, you're going to have the IRS knocking on your door to tax it, and MMO developers heading for higher ground.

Think about what it means to be running a game that people have legitimate investments in. If they ban you, now you have a legal claim against them because they've actually taken your valuable goods. They're open to lawsuits disputing the ban.

JRB

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> Hes got a point though. If the law isnt set in black and white when it comes to such incidents only more will arise by those who know its possible to get away with the "crime".

Witzbold

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> The pic should have another taru doing the /panic motion!

angry_gamer

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> Crybaby.

Lockenator

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> MMO's are scarry. I tend to stay away from them...

z357x

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> I used to play FFXI and I know that if you lose your rare items and gil, it will piss you off. I don't know if the gov't should recognize virtual theft in this matter, but something should be done. Dunno what, but I'd be pissed if I wasted like 100 + hours to get those items and such and then one day they are just gone.

Tenzu

]]> <![CDATA[Police Fail To Retrieve Stolen Gil]]> "They immediately went to the alleged perpetrator's house and shot him dead.

No, of course they didn't."

Awwww...you had me so excited for that half second or so! :)

generic_login

]]>