L_K_M

TearsandScreams

kw4k

Achievements for completing various training challenges, one for acquiring your first golden gun, etc. The point is that some players want gamerscore, not achievements. So if you assign them a zero gamerscore, most players would be less likely to boost/cheat in order to get them but it would still give the other players something to gain online.

Achievements are very tricky and addictive for most. So developers need to rethink how they use them for their games. An achievement that requires bunny hopping in CoD4 would be funny. Some need to be very hard to acquire while others should reward you for basic things. The trick is to make them available for gamers of all skill levels, even the ones who enjoy joking around more than playing without taking away from the overall experience of the game.

Hiero Glyph

TearsandScreams

L_K_M

Collapse The Control

Chef

Loud mouthed cocks need to be tagged and publicly shamed.

hahnchen

GuardianEarth128

Shuricain

smitty1123

Toprem

muu

dv8godd

Jandlecack

Shadowrun had a few achievements that were poorly thought out, especially the ones that rewarded 360 gamers for doing stuff to PC gamers. Since there were so few people who actually bough the game on PC (Vista required), those few PC gamers were abused time again by the six 360 gamers. It was funny to see someone get the "fever" achievement (viral achievement, corpse hump someone with it to get it), but after a few days of kids shouting into the mic about it, it got as old as the game itself.

Bad designers should learn from this that enough idiots out there have some odd attachment to a meaningless numerical score and are happily willing to abuse other players if it means getting a few more points in the laughable metric of "money and time spent doing silly things in games" that is Gamerscore.

fall

Which they wont, and thats exactly why it will fail.

Now if the world was made up of unicors, flowers, and rainbows then maybe it might work out just fine.

But as we all know its not.

Witzbold

Anyway, what I meant to point out was that the achievement was intended for a rare circumstance, not something you should force upon yourself. That returns us to the main fact that achievement whores, going for every last achievement, will exploit this and teamkill on purpose.

If people would treat achievements like ACHIEVEMENTS, i.e. you have a good round, kill a creature, an enemy, then by accident a teammate and in the heat of the event blow yourself up with a grenade - you have achieved something irregular and get rewarded.

Jandlecack

A patch removing a feature is "censoring" now. That's rich.

Zen_Lunatic

So what you dont want to do is give folks a reward for doing an action that is already irritating which would cause more folk to TK, then those who got TKed would retaliate etc.

Ive said this enough by now. Im suprised you didnt see it already if you had read my previous posts.

Witzbold

It just doesnt make sense and is a bad idea. Which is why no other devs have actually done that.

---

The problem is the ranked matches I dont think you can kick folks to prevent people from stacking and such. Unless they go through the trouble of making some automatic system that would kick people. Which would be a waste of time for an achievement that shouldnt have even been considered in the first place.

Witzbold

Still, it's good that they removed the TK part - but I wouldn't get all wound up about it in the first place.

Jandlecack

The kids are the ones who are defending it. Since the truth and reality behind it is that it wont work in a standard FPS MP mode.

As I said above currently the only game where it would have actually made sense is Kane & Lynch.

Those who are against it are ones with experience of the idiocy of folks online and know the truth behind leaving things in the good faith that folks will "behave" in an online environment. Not to mention are able to understand what other effects it might have on the game itself.

Witzbold

You brought up a good point where the only possible game where a TKing achievement would make sense is the MP mode in Kane & Lynch where to get the highest possible score you would have to "TK" your fellow members to get away with all the cash. People would be doing it anyways without the achievement so putting it in there wouldnt have made much of a difference.

In a normal vanilla team based FPS though its a bad idea.

While shit may sound good on paper its never half as good when put into action.

Witzbold

When you're designing a game for online play, you must account for the assholes. People who would take this achievement and TK over and over again, claiming, "I haven't gotten it yet." It's like Rule #1 of online game design.

If they wanted to try a twist that rewards some form of TK-ing, then they need to make that a much more fundamental and recurring design decision than some fire-and-forget achievement. I haven't tried Kane & Lynch, but it sounds like they really tried to do something different from an actual gameplay standpoint. The small payoff of having an unusual TK achievement in a game that is otherwise team-oriented is absolutely not worth tempting online gamers (and giving them an excuse) to be bigger assholes than usual.

Toasticus

Back in the days of PC gaming it was the "New" CS fanbase. Since the oldschool fanbase who was playing before the game broke the big times was mostly all cool folks, then the "kids" started showing up.

The difference with the PC and XBL is the fact that PC its easier to manage the servers since we have proper fucking servers to work with. Where as XBL thanks to ranked matches and such its harder to implement such a system of being able to manage players via host due to cheating and what not.

Witzbold

Sometimes, just sometimes, chill the fuck out everybody. Who cares if you have to kill ONE teammate to get this achievement - dunno why anybody would want it so badly anyway though - besides this could well happen by accident.

Actually my hat's off to the developers for responding so fast and according to the demand. I can think of a few teams/publishers who wouldn't have given a rats ass.

Jandlecack

J-Fro

And for those getting mad at Witz for saying fuck; stop. The man can say fuck. Being a moderator does not mean your Jesus Christ.

As for this particular achievement itself, it was poorly thought up. TKing is one thing, but to force people to TK is retarded. If you think that someone is going to go and kill one person and be done with it, you obviously dont play online every often

ArmyofJuan

Masterpain22

Antiterra

I would like too see "negative achievments" on the other hand, everytime someone screws up, he gets a negative achievment, removing some gamerscore (whatever that is good for anyways wtf! o_O), lasting forever of course.
now that would be fun.

infi

I hate all of you.

Mr. Mastodon Farm

You seem to be implying that console gamers are mentally challenged because PC gaming has had online play with FF for ages and for the most part it's not a problem.

The way you're getting so worked up over this implies it must be an ever server occurrence on the 360/PS3. So maybe the problem is with the people and not the game.

I don't think the achievement is a big deal. Sure the first couple of days would be crap but you can only get the achievement once so there is no incentive afterwards and things go back to normal.

Though it is my personal opinion that achievements in general have changed games and for the worse. I'm sure publishers enjoy them because games get bought that probably normally wouldn't have been bought but it's just something that allows e-tards to make up for their pointless lives by flaunting their large e-penis in the face of those that have a life.

If people really want scoring brought back to gaming it should be straight forward like Pacman, DK, SMB, etc. That kind of scoring means more, imo.

frankstallone

It's not like you have to keep TKing to keep it or something. How has gaming become such a lump of pretension and slavering bravado that a little comedy gets this much hate? Bring back the fun, dammit.

RigorMortis

rdj

JakeDunn

FtGF

Original Pseudonym

Although I don't necessarily think it them 'losing their balls' like Denzal, I do think it was caving to pressure a little prematurely.

eleventeen

Antiterra

Mass team killing is always punished, whether it's being kicked off the server or reported. My respect for the Turok developers has been diminished. Way to lose your balls, guys.

Denzal

@The Commissar: Indeed. Which is why I love the hardcore mode in COD4. Too bad though that hardly anyone plays it. Takes fucking forever to find a match. :/

Witzbold

Because without friendly fire, most shooters become spam fest jokes with little thought just shoot shoot shoot. I mean, when you can rush a building at the same time as a friendly fragmentation grenade goes off at your feet, where is the skill?

The Commissar

FtGF

Clushje

Now if there is an idiot killing himself over and over again, that would equal pretty much not having that fellow on the team to being with giving one team a possible disadvantage against another than has +# of player(s) over them.

Witzbold

GUNDAM-RX-78-2

Want to solve this problem? Make the acheivement run backwards:

You must Be killed by an enemy, a dinosaur, a team mate, and yourself. Call it Bad Luck Chuck or The Darwin Award. Now it truly is an acheivement no one wants. And it encourages you to do better!

I'm so smart!

Danj3ris

FtGF

Witzbold

I could just see this achievement being an inconvenience to everyone. Apart from the people who might well enjoy the idea of TK'ing, looking at you exo, heh ;)

Clushje

You scare away folks from MP you lose half of your products credibility.

Not to mention it gives assholes and excuse to be assholes by simply saying "I was trying to unlock an achievmenet."

Granted TKing and such occurs by accident which is fine, imagine now when you have a reason to TK someone else in game.

With friend as others may say thats a different thing, but still yet this isnt about you and a friend. The situation is much different for strangers.

The point here is from a development standpoint it was a bad decision since it is something that I have stated many times before will effect what users think of the game and have a negative effect on the online experience.

Having an achievement for "teabagging" is one thing, but killing another team member is another.

You TK me on purpose in game and Ill hunt your ass down until you disconnect its that simple. Its how its always been with TKing in online games. Even more so with ones that dont have a proper admin function to kick players.

Witzbold

SilverStar95

FtGF

'Common Sense' is that gamers aren't going to sit around their camps blowing each others heads off over an achievement.

Common sense is at least giving gamers the achievement to deal with and letting them decide on how to handle it, not censoring it for them

It seems the kotaku community now knows witzbolds achilles heel - it is TKing. Lol, everyone who receives the end of your banhammer will be looking to join your teams from now on...lol.

exo

Anemone

ca$h

Witzbold

And again, you make it sound like a giant team massacre.

I'm tempted to buy this game now simply to sit at my base and kill every guy on my team as many times as I possibly can just to undo all the bitching and moaning the "self policing gamers" have achieved.

exo

FtGF

They all knew its a BAD IDEA.

Witzbold

Never give rewards to those who do the wrong thing. Its that simple.

Not to mention not all the new players are going to know about the TK achievement and imagine how irritated they will get when folks on their own team start killing eachother.

Since the game isnt exactly a halo or cod4, we can already assume the community wont be that large either. Unless the gameplay is so damned good that it will be able to pull folks away from the big 2. Now having something that rewards TKing is just a good way to help lower your own online userbase, by irritating players.

Its fucking common sense people.

Witzbold

Mister Adequate

So many people complain about the repetetive, flash-in-the-pan, cookie cutter nature of games these days. Yet a majority of those people scream for online multi-player...the only time gaming genuinely includes an expiration date. Remember Phantasy Star Online? Played it online lately?

It's sad that so many people are clamoring for features that will make much or all of a game unplayable in two to five years time when a fickle marketplace has moved on to the "bigger, better game".

Warhawk is a good time. People love the game and I'll admit that a huge aerial dogfight is a lot of fun. But the exclusion of bots means that once those servers go down or the games popularity dips, the likelihood of ever seeing a crowded map again is pretty remote. And it makes the inclusion of four-player split-screen totally pointless.

And good god, what about all the effort that's put into and ultimately wasted by developers on games (or portions therein) that will be all but inaccessible in what frequently amounts to a few short years?

I recognize that there are some games like Starcraft and Counter Strike which have been around for years, but overall the amount of energy spent in development, complaint, or practice seems wasted on so much of what's out there.

The silence and/or unusable nature of so many modes and games produced in the last generation or so of gaming (a number which will only grow) is a phenomenon which I'm sure will become the topic of some serious discussion a few years down the road...once gamers stop and look around, and realize just how vast digital landfills have become.

Nightshift_Nurse

Guess what - there is an achievement for failing a song on easy in GH2. Guess what else - I never went for it.

I also think hams argument was much more level headed and in general stands more solid, while Witz is just lashing out with tons of expletives off-the-hip commentary that suggests gamers are too stupid to decide whether or not an achievement is worth going for. And I also totally agree that it is ridiculous when anyone, including you, can get so worked up over a friggin achievement. If you don't like it, don't play it.

Also - Witz makes it sound like the achievement devolves into everyone camping at their own base killing everyone who spawns. Its ONE friggin kill, not a jim jones cult style massacre back at the camp. I hate to be the bearer of logic, but a: team kills happen sometimes anyways (accident or not), and B: it doesn't ruin the game - it is simply a minor inconvenience.

Similar to Ham, I don't necessarily think it was a brilliant idea, but outright calling the developers a "bunch of tits" simply because some guy in a backroom came up with what he thought was a creative achievement is simply ignorant.

I have a feeling most of the people who got so angry about this aren't even going to playing the game. It was just another god damned soapbox for a buncha overzealous gamers to jump on and somehow feel as though they just made the world a better place.... **rolls eyes**

exo

D3Anon

FtGF

Makes me wonder if anyone will bitch about the same thing in Devil May Cry 4...

For as much as I loathe Halo, I'll give Bungie credit for not tossing SP out the window. Insomniac too.

Nightshift_Nurse

He knows it's all about the love.

Cola82

Not to mention the general public is where all the $$$ is instead of the old schoolers.

Devs will be forced to go where the market is which is why so many games have MP in them. It is unfortunate when companies tend to put too much effort into the MP side screwing over the SP side, but its a reflection of what the market wants.

I mean just look at the backlash games get when theres no onlne co-op. Or a proper MP mode.

Witzbold

FtGF

I'm sure there would have been ways to keep the achievement intact without completely spoiling the game for those who took offense.

Nightshift_Nurse

"Dude... what the hell was that!!!"

Zerbrecher

Good grief, it's gotten to the point where people are treating on-line play like some sort of sport...or even worse like some sort of gospel...or even worse than that, some sort of adequate replacement for a robust single player experience and split-screen multiplayer in the presence of others.

Nightshift_Nurse

balls187

I hate people who spam teamkill.

And if they allow team killing, have anti TK measures (like 3 tk's and a 15 min ban...)

balls187

Im all for creative achievements but ones that would reward people for causing trouble to others in game isnt a good idea. They really must have been scraping the bottom of the barrel if thats all they could have come up with.

Witzbold

Which isn't a bad thing, but I don't think the devs realised that until the backlash started. The way I see it, they figured that TK'ing happens, it'll be neat to somehow incorportate that into an achievement.

Just be glad they weren't "fucking idiots" enough not to listen to what the good people had to say :)

Clushje

FtGF

Zen_Lunatic

Dasyatis

The response was highly negative for obvious reasons.

Witzbold

Dimipapa

I remember when games used to be fun and played for amusement value, now it's all achievements and K/D ratios.

PirateThom

FtGF

vonk

i guess its better to take your own life than someone elses?

it's gonna be easy to find an enemy around my town, and it would be easy to find a teammate also, but it's gonna be hard to find a creature / dinosaur around here. but good thing i could find myself, but i still won't be able to complete the 'real-life' achievement, dang it.

it's just a game, i don't understand all the politicking, governmental and control issues surrounding gaming. it's just ridiculous.

kneehighspy

zegota

reptile168

a) that if gamers care so much about those achievements to purposefully kill themselves & their teammates to get it, rather than just playing and enjoying the game... it's a bit of a sad state that the community has devolved into. When did it become more important to play for bragging rights than for fun?

and b) the developer did not fix the problem appropriately, because they're still encouraging suicide.

baked ham

Suicide harms nobody but yourself in game.

Team killing ruins the experience for others in the game.

If you cant understand something that simple we have nothing more to talk about.

Witzbold

It'd be far better if they just left the achievement as is and remove the points, or make it worth 1 point or something (because you do have to accomplish something to get it, it's not good enough to just kill yourself, by the rules of the achievement, you still have to at least break even in the match by getting 2 legit kills, and in the original case, 2 negative kills). I don't think it's really that stupid of an idea, but it ain't a good one either. I'm neutral to it. I may have more of an objection if it were Halo 3 or Call of Duty 4, but honestly... does anybody really think Turok is going to be all that good?

baked ham

Might as well release a Counterstrike: Source for the 360 and have an achievement for flashing your entire team in a 20v20 match, right? ;D

Ignatius

Maniclysane

We have enough problems as is without letting the score whores get rewarded for being fuckwits.

My statement still stands that the devs are fucking idiots for having put it into the game in the first place.

Its almost as if they have never played online FPSes with FF on and had to deal with some muppet TKing everyone at the start of the match constantly.

Witzbold

Slayer

ThatGuyOverThere

smitty1123

vonk

rabbitsoup_87

Bit of a non-issue for me either way, as I have no intention on playing this tosh based on what I experienced in the demo.

duckmouth

Teamkilling is a big enough annoyance already, so for a developer to encourage it is really strange.

If they made the achievement in single-player... Well, that would be a different and more interestning story.

Hawko

baked ham

Witzbold