A friend and I was successfully able to find a work-around, which I posted on my blog:
[3redlightfix-xbox360repairguide.blogspot.com]

Please have a look & leave your comments

Thanks

Gamerbot

GotMILF

I wasn't suggesting MS doesnt need to fix their crappy hardware but I stand by my statement about the all-in-one box. Even if people dont have high speed internet they can still get DVDs, Blu-Ray, HD-DVD (even though its toast) etc. The Wii doesnt even play conventional DVDs so no one is going to make that the center of their living room like they would a 360 or PS3. If anything the Wii goes upstairs on the SD TV in the kids room and the 360/PS3 gets plugged into that new HDTV mom and dad just got for themselves. Also I think for the vast majority of consumers high speed internet is readily available. Sure people in rural areas might not be able to get it yet but all cities and most suburban towns have it and that is where the vast majority of the populations lives anyway.

I dont think Nintendo will ever be a widely trusted brand of home entertainment. At least no more than it already is. Nintendo is synonomous with video games and mario and zelda. No one thinks of nintendo when it comes to internet, high-def, watching movies, playing music, etc cause Nintendo has never been in the market to do that kind of stuff and I dont really see them starting now. They would have no chance to up-end Sony in that department and even MS has a significant leg up on them with all of their multi-media and OS experience.

Gray665

In the meantime, MicroSoft better bloody well start fighting a two-front war, because Nintendo's stock with the average consumer is steadily rising...and once they've become a widely known and trusted brand of home entertainment it won't be difficult to break into the media hub arena.

They'd also better get their ducks in a row as far as hardware reliability goes, or all the bells and whistles in the world aren't gonna help them come next gen. Sony screwed up with pricing, but they've worked hard to resolve that issue and there's no doubt in my mind we'll see $299 PlayStation 3s by the end of 2008. I have serious doubts we'll see non-defective 360s by the same time. And despite the initially high price-tag, Sony's name is still far from mud among many people. Couple that with the apparent victory of Blu-Ray and their controlling interest in a large amount of movie and television media and MicroSoft has quite the uphill battle on their hands.

But like I said, if they want to do well they'd better address these issues now. Because people will be none to pleased if a barrage of RRoDs is bringing down their entire movie, television, and music set-up instead of just their gaming system.

Nightshift_Nurse

neojam

I have to completely disagree with you about the media hub thing. It doesnt matter how many consoles Nintendo sells, Sony and Microsoft are fighting over the living room and everything that comes with it. Sales of HDTVs are soaring, people are starting to think HD more and more. The US is switching to all digital in 2009. If you don't think MS and Sony are fighting over control of the future digital HD living room then you are fooling yourself. Sure they'd like some of Nintendo's casual dollars, but its a drop in the bucket compared to the rewards of being the defacto, do all, Digital Box in the living room. This is when the battle will be won, not once EVERYONE has HD, but when it starts ramping up big time, which it has.

Gray665

Oh and "control of the living room"? What tune will you be singing in twelve months time if Nintendo is burying MicroSoft and Sony in sales? These battles will be about multi-media hubs when consumers say they are and not a moment before. Right now it's still far too fetal of a market to go around making those sorts of claims.

@GoonieGooGoo: Everything you've written thus far has been the biggest load of horse shit seen in this thread yet. You're exactly the kind of person that makes MicroSoft think they can get away with this crap indefinitely.

Nightshift_Nurse

Sorry, but I have to take you to task on this one... Are you suggesting that asking for a reliale system precludes me from being a gamer? Because that's the case, I've wasted a lot of my 27 years up to this point- and with much more reliable systems too.

Have you actually suffered from the problem of an RROD before? You sound like you haven't, so maybe you should walk a mile in someone else's shoes before you start criticizing, eh?

The problem will be 'done with' when MS takes care of it. Until then, the complaints will continue, irrespective of whether or not you consider them to be gamers because of it.

HellblazerUSA

pupaboy2

If you are worried about system reliability.....you really shouldn't be a gamer.....or Get the extended warranty, buy with a credit card, put it on your homeowner's insurance, etc. if you need to really protect yourself.

No Console has been really uber reliable since SNES & GENESIS.....though the argument for the DREAMCAST could be made....mine was rock solid and still works great. I'm glad to get 2+ years out of any of my console these days (save for Nintendo....never had any problems).

GoonieGooGoo

HellblazerUSA

So something needs to be done , i know sony got a civil suit filed agaisnt them for the 1st playstion console becaus eof the lens faluire rate (Remember the the upside down trick?)
But are people willing to pay more for a better quality system? No. Companies want to get it out the fastest and the cheapest they can.

poopdeedoo

Zero2007

Weasel3689

JamisonRD

okenny :) ...building bridges (to hide under)

Nightshift_Nurse

Nah, it wasn't the whiners, it was the class action suit (well I guess whiners there). Certain info that they don't want released would come out in the open, and they would ultimately lose the case if this is true. So they did this to get the suit dismissed.

EnigmaNemesis

This gen is not about games. It's about control of the living room. Whether that's iptv, blu-ray, downloadable content, both MS and Sony are trying to become the one-stop entertainment box.

This is why you see MS focusing on Sony, and vice versa. It's not like Sony is taking the high road here, either company would love to be the only game in town. Business is business.

Islandkiwi

All those whiners that you appear to despise so much are the same people that pressured microsoft into extending their warranty to 3 years. I be you'll be thanking them when your 3 launch consoles kick the bucket later this year.

J-Fro

Aresef

Wyld

This doesn't make it any more credible, since it is no more official than what was said in the past.

OXM last year had an article blaming this, with a guy who made a living off 360 repairs in NY and said this was the reason every time he ripped one open. Thus the mods that were out there.

Sucks, it is annoying, but at least the repairs and replacements are free.

EnigmaNemesis

That's right...I'm gloating!!

I'm sick of reading people whining about their problems with their 360s....

It's the risk you take with being an EARLY ADOPTER......live with it......Nobody forced us to buy original PS1s (Upside Down), PS2 (DREs, or ATARI 5200s (Did anyone have controllers that didn't break)...

Yeesh.....

GoonieGooGoo

zerokoolpsx

OT79

OT79

Akanubon

Nightshift_Nurse

rdj

krunkjuice

Still pissed???????

Anata_Kusoyarou

exactly what I saw in my 360 when I opened it after it had died, my motherboard split in two. About two months before the warranty update too. I sold it and someone repaired it by snapping it back to being level and throwing in some washers to hold everything. POS xbox.

DrunkRaba

Anata_Kusoyarou

It's not personal, it's business. Sony was the console leader, MS wants to be competitive. From a short-term business standpoint, they made a good decision in rushing their console. Yes, it is costing them money to repair all of these consoles. But they did beat Sony to market and as a result they have a lot of gamers playing with a 360...not to mention their obscene game attachment rate.

Now the question remains whether this affects their sales in the next console generation.

Islandkiwi

...in the history of the gaming industry, that's what I meant, obviously

thinred

Mike, you probably meant one of the most appaling instances of corporate daylight robbery ever inflicted on customers in the history of world history...

It would be a joke if it wasn't a disgrace

thinred

Brickd

OT79

And second, it's simply asinine to try and play this off as some sort of simple and easily overlooked mistake a la overcharging. This is a problem that can potentially effect every 360 currently available. Parts and replacement or no, this is not something consumers should be letting MicroSoft off the hook for doing. Have a little foresight...demand that MicroSoft address the hardware flaw itself rather than simply doll out defective unit after unit. because if they don't, that "amazing library" isn't going to mean jack shit once the 360 is retired and MicroSoft stops doing exchanges...particularly if backwards compatibility on the successor isn't 100%.

@EvoAnubis: Yeah, "getting" Sony seems to have been high on their agenda. It's a little funny and a little sad that Sony did nothing other than come in first last gen, yet MicroSoft still seems to feel like there's some sort of vendetta to settle. It's a single-mindedness that's likely to bite them in the ass hard if Nintendo in particular gets its act together vis-à-vis third-party support.

Nightshift_Nurse

nerdBOY01

@nerdBOY01: that's what im always worried about, myself.

@Irenicus-the one and only: wait, wha survey?

got an elite from best buy last september; not a falcon, but it has the newer drive (quieter) and runs cooler than what id heard, stable so far with very few lockups (no moreso than my wii, interestingly). i bought the best buy warranty just to not have to deal with the possibility of getting a refurbished unit, and im hoping when the jaspers hit next year (long overdue!), ill consider trading mine in and just swapping the drive.

but yeah, a possibly 65-75% failure rate? that's not excusable by any means.

TheIrishNinja

Soldrak

nerdBOY01

nerdBOY01

Soldrak

CyberSkull

EvoAnubis

Question: Are there any fan/intercooler adapters out there that aren't crap or aren't powered through the 360's USB port?

J-Fro

ChiChi_BBQ

They went over it a little in the next question but lead free solder has Zero to do with heat so I didn't like how that question was asked the response was accurate though. The theories that go with the Lead free Solder is that it is more brittle than the leaded type so with the other issues with the board flexing more likely to break connections. Where as a Lead bases solder might be able to flex a little more and thus stand up to the abuse a little better. I know there are other issues that can occur with cheap Lead free solders such a tin wiskers which is were the solder grows thin crystaline strands of tin that can lead to shorts.

The artcle as a whole is interesting much of the content is true even if this interview turns out not to be legit.

Konchu

Swift_

ncsbert

I think a fair number of gamers are either holding off on buying a 360, or going with a Wii or PS3, because they don't want to deal with the hassle of owning a 360. And since this group of gamers are also probably the most informed, it stands to reason that they probably buy more games than more casual prospective buyers.

Sparkamus

PooPooKaKaBumBum

Well, then again PS2 faced similar problem (although failure rate not as high as Xbox 360) but has been a great success.

CPAGamer

The warranty pretty much solves that. Sure, we go a week or two without the system while they overhaul it, but we don't lose any money. Also, the system just gets a lot of use - it remains a great way to stay social without actually leaving your house, which is great for working-class guys who can't rush out and get a beer at the drop of a hat.

I lot of people love nothing more than to lose their cool when something doesn't work the way it should and start filing class action suits etc. Have you ever seen someone who's been accidentally overcharged for something? Instead of calmly explaining the discrepancy, the kneejerk reaction is unfortunately to regress ten years or so and throw a hissy fit because you dropped your lolli. My philosophy on everything is that the world keeps turning, so you might as well just run with it.

dunetiger reads kotaku, seems pleased

Irenicus-the one and only

CortezTheKiller

It's bizarre. MS is basically getting away with consumer rights murder.

Sunjammer

What will be interesting are the long term repercussions of this. When the next Xbox console comes out, will 360 users run out to buy the first batch? Or will they hold back for a few months, wary of reliability issues?

I am one of those happy few that has a release date 360, with no problems. I also realize I'm in the minority here. But out of this gens game consoles, my 360 gets used the most. Reliability issues aside, the games matter. And the games continue to be better on the 360.

Islandkiwi

Playstation

telekinesis

*prays his 360 never sees the red rings*

Chloroform Monster

HellblazerUSA

Oh well. Maybe the 360 will eventually get its hardware bugs straightened out.

@cjovalle: Now that is a rather tragic story. I mean, that sounds like it was brilliantly planned and executed, and the experience was deminished purely due to hardware issues. Here's to your replacement being better.

Wizard

Hmm my room is on the northern side of the housing complex so it is almost always cold, and cools the fastest as well at night. This means I often leave the Xbox 360 on at night for hours to try and heat the room up. It's 14 months with no problems yet, but I wonder if I'm asking for trouble by continuing to do this...

FatherTed

.... Yes, I'm weak and shouldn't buy MS products but I'm a gamer first and foremost, not a "systemer".

angry_gamer

cadaverdog

Well it does follow what the modding community has been saying in the first place.

The xbox 360 as far as I've seen has been the most unreliable console ever. It beats out even the (early model) PS1 and (early model) PS2.

I just wished MS would just redesign the damn thing and issue a recall although with current tech it would probably mean a bigger xbox 360 (when the trend is to go smaller). I've resigned to the fact that I'll probably have to buy another Xbox 360 sometime in the not too distant future although MS is paying for it because on cross-platform games, I usually will buy the PS3 version.

It's such a shame that this generation is such a mess. If only MS had not rushed to market we as consumers would have $300 dollar 360s that don't fail and $400 PS3s at launch and the Wii would have probably been the first to market (which would be OK considering the price and specs).

.... I'm surprised there aren't any of Fahey's ravenous anti-fanboys on the thread at all so far. Did they all get culled on banhammer Monday? (Hope I didn't jinx the thread).

angry_gamer

Does the failure rate suck, sure. Is it ridiculous that it was released in this condition, of course. But its the only console with the games I like on it. Is the wii going to have ace combat 6 or bioshock? Is the PS3 going to have Kameo or project gotham racing?

So I'm kind of stuck with the system if I want to play these titles. I can write angry letters all day long to MS but no one is going to listen. Fact is businesses do what they do and they are taking steps to replace faulty hardware.

DasKonstruct

invictus2006

but you summed up my feelings on the 360, no good games you can't get for the pc a couple months later

tho still my personal fav quote about the 360 has been "i've had to send my 360 in for repairs 3 times, it's the best system ever"

even ppl who were defending him said "wtf" after that statement

cleverlymadeup

We returned it as defective, and a replacement should be arriving next week. I feel bad for my wife, who went through all that effort. :(

No issues with my PS3 after several months, though. ^_-

cjovalle

I swear, every time I see an article like this I shake my head and laugh that any diehard 360 fan has the gall to label anyone else a sheep."

My thoughts exactly. Somehow, people who get multiple failures should feel grateful that MS will repair their consoles again and again? I don't think so. That's just insane troll logic.

HellblazerUSA

The reason MS isn't catching flack is because, hey, newsflash, ALL 3 CONSOLES SUFFER FROM HARDWARE FAILURES. Do you not remember how many people had to replace their Wii's when they first game out? I considered myself lucky that I didn't, until is starting buzzing like an outboard motor every time I put a disc in it. Or how PS3's were overheating left and right? The bands of dead pixels across the screens of psp's with Sony's loving "Wow that sucks for you" attitude.

From the days of the 2600, their have been hardware issues, from having to blow out cartridges or use one game to hold down another in the original NES, to having the laser guide melt in your PS1 and having to run it upside down to getting a RRoD on your 360. If you don't want to deal with hardware issues, stick to a pc, that you built. That's the only way I can see getting around them completely.

thelivingrobot

OT79

el bryanto

kw4k

madgunde

WatershipDown

Meeting at Xbox Headquarters
Dumbass 1: Ok, so we tested the hardware and we get a 30% yield.
Dumbass 2: Hell, that's great! Let's send em' out!

Good job Microsoft. Give yourselves a pat on the back for screwing the consumer that is America.

Blake Ruff

I swear, every time I see an article like this I shake my head and laugh that any diehard 360 fan has the gall to label anyone else a sheep.

It's astounding that MicroSoft doesn't catch more flack than they do for what is unquestionably the most egregious fuck up in the history of modern gaming. Critics and gamers alike habitually take shots at the Wii's tech, the PlayStation 3's price, or the PSP's "lack of games" in a far more venomous way than I ever see the RRoD mentioned anymore.

The replacement program is a band-aid on a bullet wound. And before people fall all over themselves to retort with the PlayStation 2's disc read errors, please consider several things:

• The disc read errors on the PlayStation 2 were not a a fraction as widespread as the RRoD and the problem was actually solved by the same point in the PlayStation 2's life that the 360 is in now.

• Replacement programs don't solve anything, they just throw you a bone. As long as consumers happily accept a new, guaranteed to break 360 in place of their old one Microsoft will have no reason to actually fix the problem in a timely fashion...or fix it at all.

•360 fans better hope that backwards compatibility on the next Xbox is across the board, or there will be games you'll simply be unable to play anymore once your 360 dies. This wasn't the case with the original Xbox, which is great for owners of its more overlooked titles.

Nightshift_Nurse

DasKonstruct

piratecaptain

@GodzillaVsJapan: hmm. i don't think it's as simple as that. the nintendo wii is doing well due to marketing, 'casual' games, a low price and the waggle-control.
a waggle 360 could have been just as, if not more expensive than the actual 360 is/was, could have been marked towards the same group it is now and/or could have the same set of limited genres, game wise.

@jfx316: people don't keep buying them, they get them repaired or replaced.

xbulletholes

What's the easiest, least risky way to make a buck in consoles? A) launch first. B)Don't be -too- expensive. C) Ensure third party support.

To me if I'm Microsoft, as long as I have enough pros going for me such as marketing and Live, a failure rate in hardware isn't so bad as to convince the ship to turn around. I make good money in the short term building the first install base, capitalize on good hype from being MS's first "real" try at a console. I think hardware failure rate affects fewer than it bothers, at least in the shoes of MS that's what I think. Time will tell if their business model turns good dollars.

So, personally, supporting a model that banks on ignorance is tough. I'd rather be part of the solution, hence I own practically every console other than a 360, admittedly. Even an almost Crysis worthy pc :P

KeithCourage

kw4k

also nds/ndsl suffer from the broken hinge issue.

htd

This is the reason I slapped on the Nyko, it sucks out the hot air and reduces the stress on the hardware. If you doubt its heat messing things up just touch your 360 after an hour of gaming. Any piece of electronics that runs at that temperature will fail after a while. Its no different from a PC. You take out the case and CPU fans and within a few hours your system will overheat and die. It sucks but its just the simple truth and sadly most people don't know how to treat their machines. Its kind of like jumping on a relative's PC and seeing it full of viruses and spyware.

DasKonstruct

FingerlessGloves

DankPanties

I have a lot of experience with production lines in similar products, read semiconductor fabs, and I do not see how its possible that this could be true.

You don't start producing 100% of the line, you start with a small run, test it, run it, re-test it, and leave that product running for awhile. Then you stress test that product. Then you run that line at about 50% while monitoring its output and testing under extreme scrutiny. At this point you have other lines ramping up to 50% going through the same process. It takes some time before you are at 100% capacity on even your first production lines.

It just sounds almost impossible to me unless they had an executive signing papers stating that the engineer in charge wasn't culpable for any defects in manufacturing because they chose to forgo competent testing. If this is true this is the saddest production story I have ever heard.

invictus

The fact is that MS were given a free pass by the media, after announcing the 3 year warranty, as if that makes everything better. I'm sorry, but I don't care if it doesn't cost me a penny, but I'm not prepared to be one of those guys who end up sending in their 8th console for repairs, nor will I pay any extra cash to 'upgrade' my system.

HellblazerUSA

Thanks a lot for dragging everyone else down with you!!

sauvage

Of course I wonder whats going to happen in another year or two as the 3 year warranty runs out on your 360 and it gets the RRoD for the umpteenth time. Do you by a new one do you make the argument that MS never fixed the problem in the first place and that thats why you're on your 8th xbox in 3 years?

lostalaska

D-Lish

Infradead

Gray665

The cause of the failures or even the failure rates aren't as important as the accusation that Microsoft was fully aware of the problem and chose to knowingly ship known defective products, which is probably illegal.

I don't care how good the games or the online service is. This company doesn't deserve anyone's money, and all you people who continue to put up with this kind of crap is exactly why it continues to happen. If everyone smartened up and refused to buy Microsoft products, they'd either be out of business by now, or they'd clean up their act. Why anyone defends this company is beyond me.

madgunde

Also, it wasn't just the GPU temp issue. READ:
RROD is caused by anything that fails in the "digital backbone" on the mother board. Also known as a core digital error. CPU, GPU, memory, etc. Bad parts, incompatible parts (timing problems) bad manufacturing process (like solder joints), misapplied heat sinks or thermal interface material, missing parts, broken parts, parts of the wrong value, missed test coverage. Any one or more, on any chip, or many other discrete components, would cause this. And many of the failures were obviously infant mortality, where they work when they leave the factory and fail early in use. The main design flaw was the excessive heat on the GPU warping the mother board around it. This would stress the solder joints on the GPU and any bad joints would then fail in early life.

What this tells us is that 1 failure (RROD) could be the result of several causes or a single cause. But it is inaccurate to label it (RROD) directly to the heat of the GPU and chock it up to a loss. Once MS fixes that issue, any number of others will still be causing failures.

That is, if this annonymous dude is for real... *(skepticism)*

BoffrO

Phenom88

Those that think XBOX live is innovation, fail to see this is merely evolution and simply pulls together in a nice neat package what PC games have had for years through various services. Nintendo is clearly the innovator and has been for years in this industry even when in the lead. Sony has also innovated (see Eyetoy, and the fact the hdd and network adapter were planned from the start, and MS came in at the right time to make them standard instead of addons) MS has not introduced any innovations, nor have they needed to.
This is not to say 360 is crap or XBL is crap. Both are very well designed(conceptually), marketed and successful.
I just fear MS dominating a market place because it doesn't ever seem to benefit me when they do. I want this to be a 3 way race and I think the market can support it.

Ehardergardens

ajefferism

I'm not supprised by this story at all, shame is, people will still suck it up or even worse, take MS word for it.

But I hear the 360 have gotten better and there are a lot of games for it so it seems they are doing fine so far. Aslong as people keep buying new ones after 8 of them breaks, MS will make it.

Irenicus-the one and only

KeroseneClimax

Funny story, once I was playing the 360 and the power flickered in my house and when the 360 came back on it had the 3 red rings. I just turned it off and back on and I've never had a problem with it since.

I stand by my assessment that a large part of this supposed failure rate is people misinterpreting the error codes (4 red rings = AV cables not inserted correctly, for instance) and MS tech support being way too eager to replace consoles at the slightest hint of any problem, even if that problem has nothing do to with a hardware fault or isn't even specific to that one problem (a software glitch for instance that is inherent in ALL 360s).

While I'm sure the failure rate is abnormally high I'm guessing it's nowhere near 70% or whatever people seem to think it is.

dowingba

One only encourages the other...

Korbei

bOOmStiCK83

My personal failure rate is 1 in 3, but thankfully (!) both of the first two failed on the first day. That said, my two friends with 360s have had no problems.

Neither of the failed ones were three-rings though. The first showed one ring with an error code indicating hard disk failure - the bloke in the shop eventually got it to work by swapping hard disks but I decided to swap it anyway. Then the second developed a really, really irritating buzzing after a couple of hours - like when a DVD isn't quite sitting right - but it was coming from the power supply unit.

kruador

dowingba

dowingba

Rzarekta

Still, considering how widespread this issue WAS, this story isn't surprising. And I'm sure there are some key people that lost their jobs over this. MS has the money, so this was mismanagement by those in charge of the MANUFACTURING side.

Fahey's statements toward the end are pure hyperbole, though. There have been numerous QUESTIONABLE or downright BAD manufacturing decisions that have been made in the gaming industry. Just add this one to that list instead of elevating it as TEH WORST EVAR. The widespread success of the 360 fespite these IMMENSE mistakes should be evidence that this wasn't a fatal mistake.

DARTH_TIGRIS

I guess the whole "Join the 360 Army vs the Evil PS3 Invasion" marketing trick paid off for MS in a big way.

weasl

It is very disturbing that people find this acceptable.

Jest

brello

CitizenTian

But really, the xbox360 build quality is inexcusable. MS selling a system they knew had enormous problems is an act of disrespect to the whole gaming community.

Astrofox

Adam In Texas

Mr.SithNinja

tylerstyle

Shadowmist

fulgore66

TimLyons

dalejrfanfreak

Hand_O_Death

Every single person that I know that has a 360 has had an RRoD. Bad QA FTL.

fulgore66

tehFluffz

Keen314

I've suspected many of these for a while, but didn't know the full picture - and just like I thought, the design is not beyond repair - they just refuse to take serious enough action to fix it.

For all the hate I heap on the 360 hardware, I still think sooner or later there will be a good one... I'm just not holding my breath for it anytime soon.

fuchikoma

Just look at the runaway success of the PS2 - it had terrible reliability problems but it had all the software. They'd die and people would just go out and buy another one.

People will follow the software, and right now the 360 has the best selection.

The Wreckard

this should not be a shock, disgust at the truth but nothing new from the redmond camp

i'm just glad i left the xbox live call center before the 360 hit, one ex-co-worker said that he had 50+ returns for himself on the first day of release

30% is a VERY high number for failure, it should be under 10%, but most companies see 30% as acceptable and not affecting a lot of ppl.

put it this way if car companies had 30% failure of their cars, they'd be sued very quickly, but with m$ it's perfectly fine to do that, thank you reganomics

cleverlymadeup

kemicon

a "small" price to pay to play the greatest games ever.......right?

jfx316

Facts are facts, you can't "interpret" a 30% yield any other way than 30% good systems after testing.

If you enjoy your purchase that's awesome, it doesn't change the fact that the product is not of the desired quality.

zoesch

SSJPabs

I think this story, like many others, is a matter of perspective. Sure the information contained in it may be correct but it depends upon the context of the way it is provided. This is actually starting to remind me of politics when the haters take it as fact and the fanboys try to spin it. Both are correct in a sense but neither has the entire story.

Hiero Glyph

30% yield means 70% failure rate

infi