How do you even do the research on that?

monkey_87

Mohican

For a second, imagine the average American adult.

Maybe this study isn't so off.

Particleman

L_K_M

"Based on over thirty years of research on a sample set of 856 third graders,"

100% slow ass FAIL.

Also, did I read that the article said; "according to a Fox Business report on the findings."

Ummmm check Fox's findings please, Fox is know for right leaning BIAS.

axiomatic

I'm a Texas girl, born and raised, and I believe in the Bill of Rights (the 5th Amendment is the right not to testify against yourself in court). I grew up in a family that owned 4 gun safes, and a guns shed. I personally own a rifle, and pistol, and a shot gun. It would literally take nothing for me to get my hands on a gun and enough ammo to do whatever violent act I can dream up. And despite my love of violent movies, games, and books, I've never had the urge to go on a real life killing spree.

The fact of the matter is that people have been killing each other long before the invention of the gun. Before there were guns, their were swords, arrows, sling shots, rocks, sticks, clubs, and knives. Guns are no more responsible for violence then rock 'n roll or video games. Violent people will, and always have, done violent acts, and blaming an inamimate object for the acts of humanity is both unproductive and cowardly.

EmeraldDragon

Kamus

@badasscat:
@TrettOff:

Yes, this was a well thought-out, extended study but one must always remember to take studies like this - especially behavioral ones - with a grain of salt and take a moment to examine procedures, methods, and the reasoning behind their conclusions. Here is my fundamental problem with this study and why I think it fails the test of scientific merit.

"Repeated exposure to violent television and video games is a stronger influence on aggressive behavior than is living in poverty, engaging in substance abuse or having abusive parents...In fact, the correlation between media violence and aggression is stronger than the link between condom use and reduced risk of HIV, or between second-hand smoke and lung cancer."

These are wildly outrageous claims and it would take mountains of evidence to cement them as even having a slight scent of fact. What most people miss as they read things like this is that while correlation (which seems to be what they're discussing here) is not meaningless, it does not ever demonstrate causation on its own. This study followed a group of less than 900 third graders for more than 40 years. It seems unreasonable to me to expect that within that study you could have enough control subjects that, for example, were poor but had no abusive parents and never confronted substance abuse or on the other hand encountered a different subset that had abusive parents but did not play violent video games. Those are the kinds of things that would be required to show causation. And that study will never be done because it would be WAY outside the bounds of moral science. A researcher has an obligation to not stand idly by as a child is beaten at home just so that he can have a proper subject. The same researcher should likewise not ignore a substance abuse problem. And all this is even before one deals with the issue of the subjects falsely self-reporting parental abuse, drug abuse, poverty or lack thereof.

All of this combined with the fact that for at least 20 of the 40 years of this study there was no graphical violence to speak of in video games (though you cannot say the same for movies, but it was less prevalent) very much discounts the conclusions that are purported by the professors. Longitudinal studies like this are great, but they often come up lacking in many respects. This study could have been greatly improved if they had observed let's say 4 separate groups of 500-1,000 (1,000 is usually the accepted approximate number necessary for a random sampling) 3rd graders that were each spaced apart by about 10 years, then the differences between each group would be very interesting to see.

In the end, the subject sampling is insufficient, the cultural context during the developmental years is not fully relevant (20 years after these subjects were 3rd graders, Commodore 64 was just coming out), and there does not seem as though there was a balanced control group that this can be weighed against. I don't appreciate when people go on referring to things like this as "science." More than anything else, this will look good to the University's foundation and will help secure more funding for their department.

Everyone please calm down.

Orwellian

KM91

...

:)

quen

skeierdude

>men who are exposed to violent television

as if it's a chemical in the local atmosphere. It neglects that people /choose/ what they want to watch, and someone with a tendency towards violence or conflict will elect to watch things related.

The problem is that "Study finds many violent people liked watching violent things" is too stupid to call news, even for American media.

SolCutter

"People can be crazy and violent thats their nature violence."

Had you applied your own suggestion to yourself, you would have noticed that you're missing the point. Of course people are violent with or without videogames. Of course, not every gamer turns into a killer. The question is: Do violent videogames increase the probability that their consumer becomes more violent than he was?

I don't think it's a big step to admit that this might be possible.

tvo asked: "If violent crime has decreased and Europe has less crime even though video games have increased in popularity, how can that prove video games are more likely to influence aggressive behavior?"

Well, as you know, correlation does not imply causation. There are many factors influencing the level of violence. Generally, you show causation by having control groups, which is a bit difficult for long-term effects such as these. Which is why we do not know for sure whether playing violent videogames will make you more violent in the long run.

There's no proof. There's evidence suggesting that there may be some causation, but there's no proof. I should point out that there's no proof either way.

L_K_M

Rebochan

windsor b

And exactly what qualifications are required for one to be able to adequately evaluate the information presented in the news report? Does my lack of a formal qualification in the field make my questions any less valid? Furthermore, as you appear to agree with the general consensus, what exactly is your point beyond trying to sound superior?

And of course none of us have read the study - it wasn't presented to us! All we have to go on is the Fox report which you also agree is unreliable, making our conclusions no more or less valid than yours.

inphanta

As both a gamer and a scientist, I am reluctant to believe ANYTHING reported by mainstream media, let alone Fox, on EITHER subject, as they tend to misrepresent facts out of sheer ignorance or bigotry.

In this particular instance, it does not seem to be clear whether the study looked into videogames and TV shows as a whole, or it did not even consider videogames at all.

However, the lead scientist cited in the news report does seem to have a reasonably decent publication record on the subject ([URL=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez][/URL]),
so we shouldn't automatically assume that whatever conconclusions the study may have reached must be wrowong.

thinred

Tell me, what is "scientific" about a study that is full of glaring holes and makes assumptions? What "violent games" existed in the 60s? Why were young children exposed to violent content in order to prove that adult violence was on the increase? How were the study sample monitored over the 30 year period? What is the correlation between playing first person shooters (which didn't actually exist until the late 90s) and hitting your spouse? Are ALL wife-beaters gamers or ex-gamers? (The study seems to assume that only children play games, but the violence stays with them into adulthood whereupon they start hitting women.)Also, how could a study that dates back to the 60s prove anything about games when gaming wasn't at all mainstream until the 80s? This suggests the study was appended relatively latterly and is therefore unreliable and would also explain why it fails to clearly distinguish between TV and video games. What exactly is a "healthy dosage" of violence and how is this measured in terms of the conducted research? What were the games and TV programs used in this research? And on whom exactly was this study conducted and how do they represent the entire population of a country?

I don't know what report you read, but what I saw in that study is deliberate obfuscation, a distinct lack of specifics or anything approaching quantifiable data and a lot of deliberately unclear wording and melodrama. If this is your idea of science, then I suggest you consult a dictionary.

I know it can be intellectually stimulating to play Devil's Advocate sometimes, but you should choose your battles more carefully. "Profoundly serious implications for society" indeed.

inphanta

Altima NEO

blkpaladin

Basically, this hasn't PROVED anything. End of story.

orangedude

Add to that the fact that European gamers play the same games but commit less crimes, and that violent crime is on the decline in this country- it becomes painfully obvious that this is a pointless study. But hey, at least Jack Thompson can take a section of it out of context and use it against us in the media. There's always that.

PurpleMonkey

K-Squad! (Badass Edition)

Namikus

1) It's from FOX news which although it is run by crazies,is also people's main source of news. *shivers*

and 2) People who make this claims and conduct these studies act as though violence didn't even EXIST before video games and "Natural Born Killers"

What were the video games that drove our founding fathers to murder innocent natives?

What movie was it that drove Hitler to create the "Final Solution"?

Come on people get with it! Video Games don't create murderers!

The fact that Europe is exposed to the same content with a smaller murder rate may be more of an indication of where OUR values lie as opposed to theirs. (by this I mean ethics and moral standards)

Namikus

When I first read the headline I said "oooh, here comes another debate of the same stuff over." But then I looked up and saw it said Fox News and laughed. And apparently its been proved false already! How lovely. You can always rely on the media to fail. :D

FP Furious_Liver, lacks independence

Witzbold

"The research, which dates back to the 1960's when the lead scientist interviewed 856 third graders (and then tracked them for 30 years)"

Okay, so third graders. Let's put the year at 1967. Third graders are what, 9 years old? Okay.

"Men in their early 20s who had a healthy dosing of violent TV and video games from ages 6 to 9 were twice as likely to push, grab or shove their spouses and are three times more likely to be convicted of criminal behavior, according to the research"

OKAY, let's do some math here. So, our 3rd graders from the... 1960s... played games. VIOLENT GAMES. And turned them into wife beaters and murders. Only there WERE no fucking violent video games in the 1960s... or 1970s. Hell, until the late 1980s, all violence was so pixelated and unrealistic, I don't know how one could confuse them with real life violence in any way.

Also, nothing is stated about how often the test subjects were exposed to movies and other entertainment... and how often they were exposed to GAMES specifically. Was it 99 hours of violent TV, and 1 hour of a violent game of Pong and Donkey Kong?

Face it. The study (or at least the reporting based around the study) is complete bullshit.

Nullzero

Did you ever think that maybe mental instability had anything to do with people who commit these atrocities? These researchers need to look a little deeper and stop trying to see things as black and white and mayhap look within the gray.

Deamos Seraphim

Heyyou27

If you ask me, money and research effort could and should be put to better use. You know, a use that actually benefits society.

Chiru

A. It's from Fox and is therefore flaming, shamelessly partisan (though that's irrelevant in this case) bullshit.

B. Their methodology is likely no better than all of the other "studies" that claim to have found similar links.

No, choosing to play a loud annoying sound in someone's ear doesn't make you a violent fuck, just an asshole. There is a rather large difference. Never mind the fact that trying to quantify something like an increase in violence is nearly impossible. Show me a 30 year study with several million subjects tracked and tested, with ample control groups and even some vague adherence to the scientific process, and perhaps we can have a discussion.

ubiquitous

...actually, now that i think about it, i'm pretty sure with just a little more tweaking, we could probably manipulate this so that video games are responsible for violence in general. we could just ban them, and then violence would cease to exist, and the world would be at peace just like it was in the 70s, before they were invented.

rhinestonedarling

and its not that video games themselves make people violent, its that people have absolutely no self controll.

an example of this would be me. Im one of the least violent people i know, and i looove to play sadistic, violent, bloody, head exploding, games. but ive never done anything violent, never gotten into a fight, never gotten mad at someone adn punched them, or anything.
ive felt like kicking someone in hte face before.. but i have self controll, so i didnt. People just need to controll themselves

kokiri-kid

WasabiJoe

Accelerata

People from other countries like to think that, yeah, but...

Access to guns and access to illegal guns are two different things. And virtually all statistics show the latter is overwhelmingly the bigger issue. Even if legal guns contribute more than we think (and stop less than we think), it's more or less been decided through study that it isn't THE decisive cause of our ridiculous crime rates.

Also, I watched Commando and Predator and played GTA while I had access to firearms, and I have yet to beat my wife. I'm confused as to how the last part is relevant, but you're leading this argument, so I shall respond.

Furthermore, I have fully analyzed both of our DNA, and yes, you are a mutant. I am not, although I am a vampire.

Anyway, if you ask me, our crap judical system is a big reason for high crime rates. We're so forgiving on crime and reluctant to convict it's ridiculous. Especially compared to Japan, our conviction is just plain pitiful.

SuperMaxZero

This research was conducted over an extremely small sample size (less than 900) given the huge time period it was spread over, so I'd question any conclusions they make. However given that we're talking about third-graders here, I think there is probably some degree of truth to what they say. Young children are impressionable at that age. This is why we have groups like the ESRB in the first place - to tell parents that they probably shouldn't let their 8-year-old play certain games because the content is too mature for them.

atomicstrawberry

I know one very BIG factor that participates in this all, where all other countries that aren't as violent as the US don't have this legalized: Guns.
Don't tell me about the 5th Amendment. And don't tell me that if the government outlaws all guns in the US tomorrow, that in a year the number of violent crimes won't go down in number.

I live in Canada, when I was 13, I watched Commando, Predator, Platoon, etc, I played some violent arcade games back in the day. I didn't turn out to be a violent abusive psycho that beats on my wife! But I did not have access to buy guns nor did I want to when I turned 18. What gives? I must be a special exception, a mutant?

onomeister

fuchikoma

Oops heh.

D3Anon

This group at The University of Michigan has numerous peer-reviewed articles in some respected journals. They're not just making this shit up. Their results are almost certainly more nuanced than the crappy Fox article presents tho.

c'mon Kotaku, read those papers and e-mail those researchers!!! It's your job!

It is vitally important that this community responds intelligently to research on the psychological effects of gaming . We can not just dismiss it out of hand without examining the science in detail. If we dismiss the research and it is eventually proven true we will be more defenseless when governments start to exert more power over the industry.

If it true we will need other arguments to defend the freedoms of game developers. Like the constitution or something.

Deedo

KirbySS

Also, @Bokusatsu_Tenshi: you should be ashamed for trashing them without knowing jack.

onidavin

Frank

Okay rent over, in other words this research is bullshit.

D3Anon

In Japan, though there are many violent and pedo games, its violent crime rate(per 100k murder + rape + robbery) is 12-13% of US's. In addition, Japan is in big trouble that game dependency can cause feckless kids.

setuzoku

Merus

Sounds like they brought a BS research only because the subject is on the air on the past few months. Great publicity scam.

They don't even have ways to tell how the counterpart (not having violent TV and video games) could've come out.

Violence arising on the past few years can have tons of influences.
But let's say they are completely right. I'd rather live in a world were we do have some violence and freedom to express it rather than living in a world were everyone's brainwashed and creativity has come to a stop due to censorship.

Bokusatsu_Tenshi

@FOX: Best news reporting EVER!

Julius Mode

manaknight

Sober

aleams22

Personally, I have found violent video games to be great stress relievers, especially online violent ones where I am actually playing experienced players and not the computer. Sure, sometimes I get stressed, but it's gambling none the less.

aleams22

The fact is these 3rd graders are all going to flip out on us at once and try to kill everyone. That's ok. We've been playing the same games and we have more experience. Takedown!!

Neopolitian

onidavin

spectralpulse

aleams22

Hey, how violent were video games 30 years ago, anyway? Oh, I think I know. We're not advancing forward, we're advancing backward. Games back then were so much more realistic and gory, I see it all now!

Moonchilde

but it makes sense, and his teachings have affected universal psychology.. At least if any the teaching I mentioned.

aleams22

Am I right or wrong in feeling this way?

aleams22

There are so many additional factors that might be common to the gamers they followed. And fewer than 900 people sound like an awfully small sample size to me...especially when they're looking for such specialized events. Think about it...of 900 people, MAYBE 50 of them were violent. Are 50 individuals (divided among different causational factors) really enough to reach a conclusion about ANYTHING? Something smells to me.

Chrysalis

onidavin

aleams22

Chrysalis

Come on now, dude, let's think it through.

Creationists at least have "turn the other cheek".

We have "Frag or Die".

HfAsianInvasion

ninjafetus

People often conplain about lack of realism in movies and games, and too much violence in books and games.

But violence is part of, you know... reality.

Wyld

Baku

Frybread

smitty1123

Sasuntsi|Davit

"How scientific researches about violence make people who read it angry and more violent"

Whos with me? Eh, eh?

Wyld

Gaseous_Snake

Not to mention...Exactly how violent were video games back in the 60's (Especially considering the crime rate dropped off before we even had polygons)?

And really...it's been 30 years. It seems far fetched to me to follow people through decades of massive cultural change and try to claim that media from when they 6-9 is responsible for it. Even if did, it only encourages parental responsibility. Move on to much more important factors that cause violence.

SuperMaxZero

The measures of aggression and timeline, etc. matter a lot. So many studies have found no effect, and many have found effect. Meta-analysis has found effect, but even the meta-analysis I saw was a little wonky. It's a tricky subject!

onidavin

onidavin

crapsh00t

[gonintendo.com]

Chikebo

HfAsianInvasion

Legitimacy lost. Story finished.

justhesh

Violent crime has dropped every year since the 90s, around the same time that violent games became prevalent.

So, we've got actual real-world evidence versus a Fox News article that doesn't even bother to link to the study in question.

DrFresh

Daemonati

I can understand why of course. Having one of your past times labelled as harmful can feel like a personal attack. However, what if it turns out that (down the road) a mountain of empirical evidence proves beyond reasonable doubt that there is a causation between violent games and violent/aggressive behaviour in adults - should we not re-evaluate our attitudes towards violent games?

Olmy

altgod

So you are saying if I let my kids watch gritty violent films when they are 6 to 9 they are going to grow up as messed up individuals? Didn't think of that, thanks for telling me.

Sasuntsi|Davit

Wyld

It´s just that there are more important things to mankind to fix, other than burning books and changing games into boring "Mario Teaches typing", like giving food to starving people and banishing real guns, instead of banishing virtual guns fron virtual worlds.

But I guess that you can just burn each book about nazism and each movie with a gun (probably those by Guy Ritchie since those are good),

so the real Nazism and real guns would just dissapear out of thin air and cease to exist!

Wyld

If you don't believe violent culture begats violence, then what is your explanation? What is creating all these violent Americans? Something is, because an American born of European descent is no different genetically from a European, and an American born of African descent is no different genetically from an African. So what is making us so violent? Seriously - let's hear your explanation for what's breeding this culture of violence.

Unemployment? Europe's is higher than ours. Poverty? We're about the richest country in the world. So what is it?

badasscat

KirbySS

(dunno if I am serious or not after typing that myself)

EnigmaNemesis

badasscat

TrettOff

COLDBLOODED_BMC

Can none of you admit that there's even a possibility that this is true?

Or have we finally all been completely brainwashed into not believing science? Because this was a scientific study; in fact it was a study of a whole bunch of other studies, sort of a "meta-study" that took all the data collected over the last 30 years and collated it together. It's pretty hard to dispute the results.

Just because you don't want to believe something doesn't mean it's not the truth.

At the very least, you can no longer start off an argument by saying "no study has ever shown a link to video game violence and real life violence". This one has, and it's the largest study of the issue ever done.

Violence should never be a substitute for creativity.

badasscat

klew

Sasuntsi|Davit

OMG it is influencing. it's just like saying Would you kindly !!jeje

vamp07

But I guess that fixing real life isn´t good, we must fix games, music and art. Make em all blank screens with no sound or whatsoever, or maybe some ponies and butterflies, since those doesn´t seems to offend anyone.

Now THAT´s important.

Wyld

Minority Report; if you think about killing someone and you are about to kill someone doesn't make you a murderer. It can condemn your credibility but you still have a choice of whether to commit or not.

Even though you play video games and might be more violent than those who don't, it doesn't make you a murderer.

Kuren

*runs away*

boopadoo

Ike57

KirbySS

zombiefrank

It looks like Fox was playing a bit loose with these researchers actual study... especially considering the only game their test subjects had access to in that era was basically Pong.

ajay42

zombiefrank

Moonshadow101

altgod

Kuraudo

But hey, that's just me.

KirbySS

My friend who just happens to be a girl can play Soul Calibur very good.

Well like 2 years ago one halloween, she assulted this grown man! He had a cigar or something!

Sailorcancer

Can we please stop making videogames a scapegoat for all of society's evils, please?

BuckTwenty

BTFzor_Freestyle

EmeraldDragon

Mister Adequate

huginn

So what's their point again?

ianken

axiom

Krackatoa

Besides, I save more money beating my girlfriend than beating my controller and risk having it break.

I mean....

tvo

SkutSkut

Deadeyereborn