AroundTheFur

Gritmonger

However are these games innovative? Not really since we've basically been playing the same games since we were kids (platformers, shooters, rpgs, ect..) I'm sure all of us here could use our imaginations to think of a real awsome game we would like to play and just becuase of that fact there will still be more great games to play in the future (ie, no one has made that perfect game that we all wish would come true). I don't care if a game is innovative, causal, hardcore, ect... if the game is solid gold fun then it's a buy for me.

LordNova

I can see where he's coming from though - there were plenty of clones in his time, but there were also games that didn't even have a genre yet, where there really wasn't enough of anything to copy from. I'm way more excited by a new bad game than a 10th generation copy of something done well. FPSes must be on the 100th gen by now - I still play some, but they have to outshine thousands of others to be worthwhile.

Halo 3 is a revolution over Doom... rolling, organic terrain, better AI, vehicles, multi-level buildings... um... well, ok - I didn't say it was a MAJOR one, but it's clearly moved on a bit in more than graphics. GTA being antisocial? I think he missed the whole Mortal Kombat / "OMG! BLOOD IN VIDEO GAMES?!" panic. GTA is horribly buggy in every of its 3D incarnations, but the social problems are both real, and at the same time horribly ridiculously exaggerated. Every so often a kid with no grip on reality thinks he can get away with what he sees in game and forgets that if you run amok you'll be gunned down by magically-spawning armies of soldiers, haha... That will happen with anything - if not GTA, then another game, or a movie, or even a book they read, so it's not like R* needs to tone THAT game down. I just wish they'd playtest it a bit.

fuchikoma

I jest. Sort of. (It may have been published after Bushnell left Atari).

But really, Atari was innovative back in the day. Unfortunately, innovations in any industry are few and far between. When you're starting a new industry, innovation is easy: all ideas are new. But when more people get into the industry, more people continue to think like each other. And then so do the consumers.

And this doesn't apply just to videogames. I'm sure it also applies to fuel consumption in cars. It's just a basic principle.

minister.of.rhetoric

NeilGavigan

Tenth

But, by that rationale, Halo 3 is just an updated Dig Dug. Or an updated Pole Position. Hell, it's an updated Pong, because they are both videogames and one came later in the space-time continuum.

When was the last time Atari came out with a worthwhile game? Oh, wait, not since 1984.

Strangelove

MURDERFACE

Spaghettaboutit

Knukleur

@WillSerenity: Yeah...I'm with ABIGSMALL, HL was not the first FPS game with a storyline, by any stretch. Its just the first one that sold well and had a _decent_ online component. Marathon is just one of many FPS games with good/decent storylines that came before it.

@N. Bushnell: Dude, we get that you were to the birth of console video games what Larry Flynt was to widespread magazine porn, but you're just as relevant to what I play now as Mr. Flynt is to a new issue of Hustler.

DaiMacculate

Witzbold

@Tulkamir: The 'innovations' you talk about are not innovations, they are improvements on the platform. Halo has new ideas for FPS games but they're not true innovations and you should take a step back and admit that. What that boils down to is the 'bigger, faster, better' aspect of his argument. I like fighters, having parrying in street fighter 3 is more improvement on the format than innovation. But in a sense I would call it innovative.

Basically these new ideas that improve the type of games we like to play are much welcome, but I value more the type of innovations that really present something new to the world of games, and are not improvements on something we already have.

Doom and Halo are of course differemnt games on different levels, but Halo is ultimately an im provement on the same type of game that doom is. So it has jumping, forced arsenal, better gfx better multiplayer better maps etc but the core element is undoubtedly cloned.

Sonic and Super mario bros ar both different games, but with different style of play. The both have the same core element so we categorise them. That is what genre means, it's not a name it's a type of game. I.e. how it plays. Saying genre is a name makes you look pretty lame in essence.

Nolan is praising the new, the truly innovative type of games that go on to create a genre. What is LocoRoco? Sure it's a platformer if you will but in essence it's something more than that easy.

Halo is an FPS. We have lots of them. Improvements are great if you like FPS games, but don't try and make out like it does something fundamentally new and different.

Also, your name is REALLY stupid and sounds like an animal in the tapir 'genre'. I mean name. :D

gagary

There's a lot of innovation to be found. Much of Namco's stuff has genuinely new ideas, but new ideas are rarely popular at the time. That innovation gives other game companies something to steal and polish up later. And polish is great. There's nothing wrong with enjoying a polished game over an innovative...so long as you don't confuse the two.

Halo, as a series, is extremely polished. But I don't play Halo and think, "This is something I've never seen before" or "I wonder how the came up with that". Everything in Halo is also in other games, every advancement in Halo 3 is a natural progression from Halo proper.

Art has innovation. Pointillism is not a natural progression and improvement on another style. Perspective techniques are not a natural progression. Subject matter does not follow a natural progression. The same with other recognized art forms. When the DIRECTION changes, that moment is innovation.

Much of cooking is derivative. Much of it's crap. Doing something better by changing something minor is still appreciated, but not in the same way as innovation. Ditto for every other subject matter. Does that somehow invalidate his answer to the question he was asked?

Did he ever claim to not play any new video-games? No. But the trend toward collapsing inward instead of expanding outward has him questioning the trend in gaming. Heck, I absolutely agree. I find much less urge to play something terribly similar to something else I've played. If the only difference between new release x and something I played last year is inconsequential (shinier graphics, updated stats, game modes I don't really care about) why should I be buying new release x?

That said, new ideas don't sell well. I can't blame EA for updating sports games every year when people buy that sport game every year. A game about pushing eggs into holes is a risk, and polished game design doesn't come cheap. Why gamble on a new IP when a prettier 3-D Zelda is a guaranteed sale?

And even if there is innovation within the industry, will developers know what to do with it? What third party Wii games is everyone playing, eh? I know none are on MY active play list...because the controls have waggling become an extra button, for no real gain. Minigame loathing aside, Warioware Smooth Moves is a damn innovative game...because it goes in a new direction.

Balius

NunianVonFuch

mcderek3000

"I am Nolan Bushnell, and I am here to ask, is a man not entitled to the innovation from his games?"

K-OSS

Nutter.

I'm guessing he has a model T ford and a straightblade razor too?

Yeah there are derivative games - does it make it any less fun? I'm guessing he hates all films & music of this day too.

edhe (xbl)

supercrap

TC

thepounder

Tei

He'll be back for Snake and Bowling, oh yes, he will. Everything'll be all right Grandpa, don't worry, nobody's after you, let's get you a shower.

Baptism_of_Fiber

†ЙОSЧЭЯДТЦ†

GenericKen

At this point, every falls asleep while he goes on for another 20 minutes about how stuff "back in the day" was so much better.

Darkest Daze

Stormrider

Sabre_Justice: Okay, no more long name.

The man's got a point, but he definitely needs to get back into gaming before he makes really strong allegations like that.

blacksamurai87

I'll grant you that the 4-player coop and Theatre mode are fantastic in Halo 3, but Starsiege: Tribes, a 10 year old PC game, kicks the hell out of Halo 3 multiplayer if for no other reason than it could have more than 16 players connected at once.

And from the looks of the Beta, COD4 will soon rip the reigns of "best console multiplayer FPS" from Halo 3 in a few weeks, if for no other reason than most of the kills in COD4 will be from guns and not from melee.

baberg

saved videos were not made by halo 3. They've been around and popular since Burnout Revenge.

What I like about gears was the Aiming system. I don't know why, but the 3rd person shooting system just worked there, far better than a FPS system has ever worked for me.

Kirbytheslayer: In-Kirby XMB

Jonn

ABigSmall

gique

He should really be bashing those trashy games that come out in the millions of the arse-hole that is licensed video games. No doubt there are a few gems, but when I see "Cars" coming out for PS2, Wii, DS, Xbox 360, everything, it gets me sad.

ABigSmall

Seriously, it gets old. -_-

Besides, here's your evolution of the fps:

1. Wolfenstein 3D- lays the foundation of the genre
2. Online multiplayer
3. Half-Life- Added something called storyline, so you were actually accomplishing something instrad of just mindless point-and-shoot.
4. ...there is no 4! I really haven't seen any innovation past the original Half-Life.

Although, I'm not really an FPS guy, cept for UT. Anything else I found boring, especially Halo.

WillSerenity

PurpleMonkey

But this is true of almost all forms of entertainment. There are tons of crap movies that make gobs of money, but don't really offer anything new (Saw IV maybe?). Maybe he doesn't like the new Hollywood model of video game production. I guess game development used to be really intimate, but now it's a meat grinder or an assembly line.

blodia

He seems to be complaining about the same kinda things that killed Atari though, so...

Sabre_Justice: Okay, no more long name.

Markyboy

Also I hope whoever interviewed him threw the ET game in his face.

peet

@Kirbytheslayer:

Since when has something like Forge been on consoles? It features enough to be popular and win over reviewers and myself. It also has saved videos and pictures that have become extremely popular! Your dissing Halo 3 but you give credit for Gears of War? That in itself is stupid. Gears of War did NOTHING innovative! It provided a cover system copied off of Kill Switch! Gears of War is just like any other third person shooter, only prettier! Good job being a hypocrite of innovation.

Keegs79

He invented Chuckie Cheeses and was apart of Atari.

He invented the mother fucking childhood of the 80s-90s.

Dr.Chocobo

mfsalp

The multiplayer, I found to be obtuse and pointless. I found most of the maps to be claustrophobic, and the one level that was open (the one with the grass field, and two bunker thingies at each end) was juggernaut, so we all hid in the bunkers when we were the juggernaut anyways.

Forge-I believe that map editors have been around forever.

4-player Co-Op- Announced right when EVERY FPS was being declared a four-player CO-Op game. I'll admit the built-in theater option is almost relatively new for an FPS, but it doesn't really make up for the lack of innovation.

I'm very open to games. There are no games I have put down without firsthand experiencing them for a 1-hour minimum. I played Halo for 20 hours, and dind't like its lack of innovation, and spots that were actually backwards compared to the PC. Ex:(of me trying a game that I would otherwise denounce)Gears of War. I thought I would hate it. I played it 2-Player battle whatever, ended up loving it. Mostly the aiming system, which was just so beautiful. Though, I hate with all my heart the excess level of bloom.

Kirbytheslayer: In-Kirby XMB

"nice sound effects"- yes
"shiny graphics" NO
"well told story" VERY NO

overrated game is overrated. I should have bought the Orange Bawks instead.

Elyoshi

First, genre is a name more than anything else, but going by your logic, Halo - Console shooter, Doom - PC shooter. Happy? Just like Starcraft - Real Time Strategy, Civ - Turn Based Strategy.

As for the rest. The online in Halo 3 especially is light years ahead of anything I've played on a PC shooter. (I am by the way primarily a PC gamer, and only recently picked up a 360).

As for other things in Halo not common to other games - 4 player co-op, Forge, Theatre, etc...

Also, things that are less obvious to the average user but are every bit as important such as level design. Halo has phenominal asymetrical level design. Something not often seen, especially in team based shooters.

I honestly used to be like you. Used to rail against Halo because it wsa just like all those PC shooters I liked, nothing special about it. Then I yanked my head out of my arse, gave Halo(as well as many other games I had similar thoughts about) a try, and found I was totally wrong.

Give it a try, it's refreshing.

Tulkamir

kingclip

ulix

Sure, there will always be the occasional speck of innovation that takes the market by storm, but no matter what medium you work in: TV, movies, music, gaming, whatever...success is often found in the tried and true formulas, the sort of things that the audience expects and enjoys. Try and mess with it too much and you're catering to a smaller group. This occurs today, it occurred in the 90's, it occurred in the 80's (platformers, anybody?), and it will keep occurring in the future.

Personally, so long as there's both in the market---the tried and the true and the innovative---I'm happy.

Ninja-Z

james castle

xiaNaix

I mean, the guy praises three casual games, two of them very similar, and commends one that hasn't been released yet, so how are we supposed to take him seriously? (without even considering this is the man who allowed the E.T. game to gain entrance to our households)

monkey_87

Gunhaver

ShaggE

firesign

@Ryivan: Well DOOM is a real hardcore FPS game, halo is a ultra easy fps, to play doom well you need to play a lot to even complete a mission...

TOCATL

Nexus6

Oh, and you're Starcraft Analogy? Faulty on one key point: THEY'RE DIFFERENT GENRES, IDIOT. Civilization is turn-based and focuses on diplomacy, Starcraft is real-time and combat oriented.
And if you want to compare Warcraft III to Starcraft, except for heroes, they're essentially identical.

Kirbytheslayer: In-Kirby XMB

sinny

atomicstrawberry

There are so many modern games which are amazing, and can change the future of games. Even if they aren't the most revolutionary games; WHY DO GAMES HAVE TO BE INNOVATIVE? Who cares? I mean, if it's fun, stop complaining -_-

Limey

You can either become an elitist prick that's admired by a pompous minority, or you can just appreciate what you think is worth appreciating and ignore the rest.

Bishmon

The industry will grow, but calling it names just forces fanboys back into their reactionary shells.

Cola82

As for GTA, I don't really see the problem since I don't believe it causes the kind of anti-social behavior it promotes. Xbox Live, on the other hand, I'm afraid brings out the worst in people. Live is the biggest step back in social interaction I've ever seen. Instead of going out and interacting appropriately with other people, it encourages us to stay at home, alone in the dark where we can be as homophobic and racist as we like.

But that's not going to be a very popular opinion here, of course, among people who regularly feast on the trash Bushnell talks about.

ridleysaria

dv8godd

Worth repeating. Clive Barker tried the same thing with Jericho.

elevenoverzero

To the point at hand though, like Tulkamir said, pretty much everything is starts with an innovation at the top and everything else branching out below it.

SpasticSloth

Secondly, some of the best games I've played have been very innovative - Mario 64, tons of NES games, Katamari, ICO, SotC, and GTA to name a few. But the rest of my catalog of best games are just polished titles - Super Mario World, Link to the Past, Starcraft, World of Warcraft, and Final Fantasy 6.

A good game doesn't have to be innovative just like a good movie doesn't have to explore new ideas like, say, Brokeback Mountain. There's room for both.

baberg

I guess it's human nature to go the easy route.

Netnavi

Now no one really knows how to make a game that gives you a sense of accomplishment (at least not like they used to) I remember when PS1(X) first came out and it had games noone else were doing. "What the heck is a warhawks?" we said. Now were just aping the same stuff over again but with new larger less jaggy worlds.

We need the shiny along with the innovation. And also the fun factor.

Netnavi

Anyway, Bushnell has an excellent point. The whole concept of "bigger, faster, better" did make for more money in the coffers of companies, but the truly memorable games are the ones that were unlike anything I've ever seen.
I think lack of innovation has also contributed to my decrease in gaming over the years. There was a time when I would've bought every and any game that I had an inkling of liking - money be damned - but now, I say to myself "I played that game when it was called "X""

Every review of Halo 3 I've ever read or watched has said that it isn't "evolved", but rather "refined".

Also, to hit on GTA: this is a guy in Bushnell who got the video game industry started based on the social experience. GTA - a game that is inherently about being solitary - goes counter to what he's believed.

All of this speaks to an old debate I had about Psychonauts. Wasn't here, though...

Phoenicks

Pac Man, Ms. Pac Man, Jr. Pac Man, Super Pac Man
donkey kong, donkey kong jr., donkey kong 3
galaga, galaxian, space invaders, 1942, any of a bazillion shoot-em-ups

pong, breakout, yar's revenge, arkanoid, arkanoid 2, tournament arkanoid

onlysublime

Lou3000

your last line was a killer. :D

Ah, Nolan is just bitter

cyhborg

And im being 100% serious.

Ryivan

William Killer Shatner

Personally, I think he's a little bitter because he's out of the market, and there's no sign of him stepping back in. Video games have become too powerful for a one-sided mind like his.

Kthx.

BTW I'M NEW. LAWL.

atowncalledparis

Vexorg

When people got fed up with the hollywood system they turned to indie movies, and we can see the same thing happening now with videogames. I guess he just didn't notice the indie movement...or chose to ignore it or something.

He IS cranky.

turkeyfunk

dv8godd

At least they did more enhancements than change the level design and add a little bow on the top of the character's head.

As much as I respect what Nolan did in the past...I think he has a very distorted view of what went on when he was still relevant.

PeonCulture

First, I'm guessing you've never played Doom. Mainly because it's like saying Starcraft and Civilization are the same. They're both stratagy games. In both you build up little cities, get resources, attack enemies etc... But you'd have to be off your rocker to say they play the same at all. Same with Halo.

Different things Halo has done? Minor things I'm guessing you wouldn't notice or understand. Things like forcing the player to have 2 weapons only adds an element of strategy. The multiplayer experience is phenominal and took shoot multiplayer, especially console shooter multiplayer, to a place it's never been before. In fact, most console shooters are still struggling to catch up to Halo 2's multiplayer. I could go on, but I doubt there's a real need.

I get the idea from you that you are one of those foolish people that feels that your opinion on these things is fact, but has never actually spent the time to create a solid base for that opinion.

Tulkamir

Those people who paint with feces? VISIONARIES.

Moonshadow101

ExistentialEgg

cranehand2ndcoming

XvCowboyvX

0starter0

Kirbytheslayer: In-Kirby XMB

the-hypnotoad

BigChiefSmokem

NPC

EnigmaNemesis

0starter0

nfarm2

Adding to this, games like halo 3 do something argueably equally as important as the vaunted "innovation". They "evolve". Mankind didn't just suddenly one day go "Time to innovate!" and become what we are today. We took time and evolved. This is similar to what most games do. Take pre-exisiting ideas that are well liked and enjoyed, and build on them.

And if he (or anybody) were to actually play halo 3 and doom 1 right after one another he may notice that this evolution has been doing a great job.

Tulkamir

ShinyNew

hal2600

Bon5ai