I dunno - I think I'd like to see a secret Nazi base on the moon, but other than that Nazi's are a bit 'done'. Moon base though - that'd be one that'd create interesting opportunities with low gravity and dieselpunk technology.

Tinkergirl

The plane crashed because there were snakes on the plane.

Tracid

@Tychoides: I should clarify my last statement. Plot is certainly a part of execution. However, it's not a part of the original post by Luke regarding the change of scenery, and it's not really mentioned in the article unless you are referring to what is going in the Nazi tropical island. Which is only somewhat different than what they went with in the underwater city, so that's not really a big change anyway.

Damn the lack of an edit feature! :(

ビッグ ボス

@Toasticus: That makes a lot of sense as to why you are looking forward to the game. Thank you for sharing.

And I think you do have a point that perhaps my criticism is directed at the narrative versus the setting. That being said, the two are tied together very closely here, I believe.

@justhesh: The art style of much of what is present started in the late 30s and early 40s, if I'm remembering correctly. I'm not a big art guy, so I could be wrong with my decades. (I saw the style and The Rocketeer and old movie theatres came to mind immediately.) Fair enough.

However, if you had taken the time to read my replies to Toasticus instead of setting up a straw man argument, you'd realize what I was saying.

The darkness is not the only point I was making, though you are obviously not seeing the same demo I am if you are saying you play the most of it in the light. The majority of the environment around you is dark minus the narrow areas you are moving in. The hallways often are not well lit, the rooms usually have a couple lights on or small fires burning, etc. The overall look is dark, I'm not saying the game occurs in pitch black darkness.

You didn't bother to respond to the other cliches I mentioned, and more importantly, you are missing my point completely: These mood setting devices are nothing new.

And I really don't know where you got the idea this discussion is about plot and execution. Execution, maybe, as setting and environment are part of that. Plot has nothing to do with that, but if you want to get into the plot, we can do that too.

ビッグ ボス

@Tychoides:

You "know the environment [you] saw", and yet you say it's 30s and 40s, when it's clearly 40s and 50s. I mean...it tells you right in the game on just about everything you see and hear. And you so conveniently look past the entire plot and execution, which was the actual topic of discussion. And why, so that you can chastise them for using darkness? What, is that some sort of trademarked feature? Tychoides has spoken, games can never again contain shadows!

As if that wasn't ridiculous enough already, for god's sake, 80% of the demo takes place in the light! So you're complaining about what? The first 5 minutes of the demo?

And we're supposed to take your reasoning seriously...

Please.

justhesh

@Tychoides: I think I see what you mean. I guess being put off by those mood-setting devices depends on partly on whether you see them as being part of a standard toolset (my view) or mundane and cliché (your view, maybe).

For my particular case, the Art Deco underwater city setting is absolutely the prime reason I'm excited about the game. You see, I spent a couple years in college studying to become an architect. After that second year I decided it wasn't for me, but from that experience I gained an immense appreciation for the importance of quality architecture and the impact it can have on how people go about their lives.

This appreciation has transferred into my chosen profession, the production of video game artwork. I know a lot of people on teh intertubes go spouting off about their credentials, but I'm not giving this background to impress anyone; having a job in the industry really isn't all that impressive, after all. I just think that background helps to explain the (unfortunately venomous) passion of my first comment in this post. I love good architecture, and I love games, and seeing a game where the architecture is one of the big selling points just about brings a tear to my eye.

Ultimately, I think your criticism is more aptly directed toward the narrative design than of the game's general setting, which I believed this Kotaku post to be primarily about.

Toasticus

@Toasticus: Apology accepted.

We'll have to just agree to disagree, I think. For me, the mood and feeling is just as important as the physical setting (if not moreso) and this part just seems rehashed. To me, it seems like you all are seeing the forest and ignoring the wildlife, to keep the analogy going.

I'm curious, so I'll ask: (And this is really directed at everyone, not just you Toasticus.) What, aside from the setting, excites you all the most about this game?

I guess that I'm just missing the appeal that has struck so many people. Is it the story? Is it the fact that it's a spiritual successor to System Shock 2?

ビッグ ボス

@Tychoides: I apologize for the insult, but it really got me riled up that you were basically glossing over the single most novel setting for a game in years as being more of the same.

The dark environment and flashing lights have been done, yes, but nobody's trumpeting that. That's not what's novel. You can't sum up Bioshock's setting as being dark rooms and flashing lights; it's so much more than that. It's an entire underwater city fleshed out in a pronounced retro art style. By focusing on the use of standard mood-creating devices such as dark lighting and flashing lights, you're absolutely missing the forest for the trees.

Toasticus

Allow me to add my voice to the chorus of happiness. I doubt this game would've blipped on my radar if it had remained stale.

doubtful

@justhesh: I played the demo, I know the environment I saw. If you'd like, you can read my reply to Toasticus above mine and see what I'm getting it.

I knew interrupting here with all the positive results would invite some flames as there are a lot of people in love with this game, but I think I have a valid point here. If you (and Toasticus) disagree, that's fine. Just stating my opinion.

At least you didn't resort to name calling...

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@Toasticus: Sorry Toasticus, I typically enjoy your comments and often agree with what you say here, but Bioshock does not impress me in the slightest. Yes, the idea of a 30s/40s style underwater city is original, but it uses the same gimmicks (pitch black areas with little lighting, flickering signs, random things crashing, watching something bad from a position where you can't do anything, etc.) from other FPS games in an attempt to make it seem spooky, which is not original at all.

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@Toasticus:

Yeah, clearly they don't even know what game they're talking about.

justhesh

@Tychoides: I'm usually not this coarse, but you are a dumbfuck. The underwater city setting is absolutely brilliant. DIAF.

Toasticus

You can never kill enough nazis.

eugaet

So they went from a not-so-original "OMG Nazis!!11" tropical island to a not-so-original "We can make things not really that scary by having it really dark and flashing lights!!11" environment?

ビッグ ボス

Oh joy. And with the renaming of Irrational into a publisher's studio name - 2K this and that - I can see their identity being crushed, as EA has done so many times before.

I only hope, nay pray that things go well for them and they don't become a soulless corporate machine. It would be devastating for Bioshock to be their final swansong.

humilitybecomeshim

@Wubbytoes:

Never! :D

cadekun

I think the biggest concern is not how awesome Bioshock will be (Answer? Very awesome, judging by the demo), but just how poor are the inevitable flood of 'art deco city in a volcano', 'art deco city in space' games that are going to try leaping onto this bandwagon going to be?

madbloke

I honestly wouldn't have paid the game more than passing attention if it wasn't for the setting and artwork. As it stands I have it on preorder. It was a good move to pick an environment we haven't seen before, especially one that makes a lot of us remember reading sci-fi books in our youth.

system11

@justhesh:

I don't have any teeth left.

Vecha: One more Month

Can I just say one thing, for all the nerds in the audience that may or may not be excited at the prospects of just what Bioshock is?

Ok, here goes...

Bioshock is the resultant love child from an orgy of the minds of H.G. Wells, Jules Verne, and George Orwell.

Now, does that proposition not send a tiny chill up your spine and cause you to grit your teeth in anticipation?

justhesh

Man I wish Retro would go back and revive their Action Adventure title with the Neo-Nazis and 3 overly sexual female protagonists in Sci-Fi setting.

hvnlysoldr

I, for one, will never tire from killing Nazis.

Kdawg

good. this bioshock scratches an itch i think most people didn't even know they had. art deco underwater city? FUCK YEA. the demo had more atmosphere in it than most games do in their entirety.

all that is to say, i'll take my sci-fi/fantasy/horror/nazi shooter in the form of wolfenstein any day. love wolfy. but bioshock is going to be GREAT largely due to its uniqueness.

coin_operated_boy

@silentbob343:

hmmm Dragons?

Vecha: One more Month

@justhesh: Wow, now how come nobody looks at the plot of Lair as it too is a "to a completely overwhelming metaphor for social and political philosophy." ;)

silentbob343

Now that's a game I would play.

silentbob343

@VorpalMonkey:

Yea..it'd be alright...but 'this' bioshock sounds and looks a whole lot better.

Vecha: One more Month

@VorpalMonkey:

That's kind of what I was thinking, but with a little more collapsed society, "Lord of the Flies" sort of vibe.

PapaBear434

Changing the setting to Rapture was a smart move. I can't be the only one who is tired of killing Nazis.

Wubbytoes

If you read the interview it mentions that the game would have taken place at an abandoned Nazi gene research station, but in the present day. The fact that you aren't storming Normandy beach already distances it from the cliche titles, but add in a nazi mad scientist who, even after sixty years, is still attempting to establish the master race and is currently sending his genetic screw ups at you? That could be very interesting.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they changed it, but still I could see it being a fun game, even with the overused nazis.

VorpalMonkey

@mayumayu: System Shock 2 didn't have environmental effects. It was much more what we'd call survival horror these days. Bioshock looks like it rewards people being creative with the environment and setting up elaborate traps, and there's many more tools in Bioshock for that than there were in SSII.

So, uh, justify your scorn.

Merus

@Cyco:

That is EXACTLY what I was thinking...

"so...fps...Nazis....Island...scary"

Hmmm....

"This is just like any other F*** fps that will only sell a couple 100 thousand copies"

yea...I think I'd say the same thing....

Unless it was any of the ideas above me about mutant nazis, zombie nazis, Nazis with Aids, Utopian Nazis.

Vecha: One more Month

I've played through the demo three times, and I'm totally digging the post-apocalyptic Metropolis setting. This is one of the most original and interesting virtual environments I've ever experienced. So yeah, I'm glad they ditched their original idea.

thumbuki

^^directed at littleballofhate, but original person applies somewhat

3inst3in just had rrod number 2 and is sad

@mayumayu: then shut up and go play your little JRPG's. whiner.

3inst3in just had rrod number 2 and is sad

Thank god that they changed the story.

Witzbold

I'm surprised no one remembers this. There were a few screen shots released/leaked while it was still a story about Nazi biological experimentation game.

Jackablade

It would explain why they had a hard time pitching the game in the beginning if that is the case.

Cyco

@pikachumariachi:

No, but knowing the talent these people have (System Shock 2 and the original two Thief games STILL freak me out) I think they could have very well created something so absolutely freaky that it would make the whole "Nazi's are overused" thing null.

PapaBear434

@PapaBear434: But that still doesn't beat art deco underwater awesomeness

Pikachu Mariachi:A hispanic videogame character.

@PapaBear434:

Plan crash, plane crash... SOMETHING crashes, ok?

PapaBear434

There is yet to be a game were you battle comunazi zombies

Pikachu Mariachi:A hispanic videogame character.

This could have been cool if they set it up where the Nazi's started a secret society on this island where they could set up their "pure master race." Men, women, and children dropped into this island society to try to create their silly (and monochrome) utopia.

You, as the hero, come across it in a plan crash or something seventy or so years later, only to find it as twisted and demented as the current Bioshock environment.

See, I could be a writer. I just put a twist on the old "Nazi's are evil" element.

PapaBear434

...And getting caught in the rain

If you're not into yoga

If you have half a brain...

HfAsianInvasion

And so far Bioshock looks to me like glamour and dumbed down System Shock 2.

Mayu-mayu

@LittleBallOfHate:

I don't think you understand just how deep and involved the setting and plot of the game really are.

justhesh

Thank god they changed it. It went from a completely underwhelming rehash of "Nazis are crazy!" to a completely overwhelming metaphor for social and political philosophy.

There is no way in hell that the game could have been half as gratifying in the first setting as it is in the entirely unique and definitive one it has today.

justhesh

We didn't actually. What we had a fill of is WWII theater. I wouldn't mind a good sci-fi game with nazis, I always liked stories about german secret weapon developments. Since 'Return to caslte wolfenstein' I've seen no such games.

Mayu-mayu

Maybe they were going to be Nazis in big mechanical suits ala Hitler in Wolfenstein 3D.

vernichter spends more time reading Kotaku than gaming :(

Blowing up hundreds of Nazis in an FPS game is SO cliche. Now, blowing up hundreds of genetic freaks? That's innovation!

Seriously, this game looks great, but can we stop with the "it's so innovative!" stuff already? It's innovative in the "this formula has been done four trillion times, so a minute change to that formula is refreshing" sort of way.

LittleBallOfHate

Irrational? Don't you mean 2K Boston/2K Australia?! Yeah, I hate the new names too, retarded...

Scazza