[kotaku.com]

DELICIOUS BUNNY

Fotf

I agree with your points but the PS3's problems are going to go away. It will get cheaper and devs will learn how to code for it the same as they did for the PS2. The other consoles will still have their problems.

Tarka

If it was done correctly I'd be interested in the results though!!

breimann

Enigma_20XX

Ahsayuni

randlsa

ndgovenom

Is that true, or am I getting a b/s line from the guy?

He also said that I would definitely get my machine back this time instead of a different refurb.

silent.....deadly

CountElmdor

Maybe I'll buy one when more of the bugs are worked out. HA. Like that'll ever happen. Though some of those RPGs look nice...

Taiyaki

I wrote an article a while back [knobee.com], submitted to several tracking sites and the *real* problem continues to be ignored. I'm not sure how else to get across that the 360 has a 100% failure rate. Thing is, I'm a big fan of the 360 overall, but this is a huge problem.

vdegeorge

dcdeveloperx

Kdawg

I don't remember specifically saying "Mehginla is a fanboy" (or fangirl, not sure by the name). So ease up there cowboy/girl.

Anyways, if your console is overheating as this article is talking about.. you will get the red rings. Think. =)

Cellien

Second most disc scratches are caused by vertically stood 360s. If a disc is running at high speeds even the bass from your speakers can throw it off through vibrations.

Have your 360 in an open environment with it laying down horizontally on a flat, clean and stable surface for 2 reasons. 1. Its more stable in that position and less prone to screw up from outside vibrations. 2. A wide top increases a surface for heat dissipation so it'll cool faster and easier.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Its so simple yet people just don't get it.

DasKonstruct

therethinker

Hills

a larger fan can push more air per rotation than a smaller fan so you can spin the larger fan slower in order to push the same amount of air as a smaller but faster fan.

another huge noise factor is they type of bearings used and how the fan is mounted because if you have the fan transferring its vibrations to the case then the sound of the vibrations get magnified so you use rubber and other material to dampen those type of vibrations.

M$ should have increased the size just slightly to accommodate a bigger fan, and then invest in a high quality fan that is designed to be quite and the system would run cooler and just as, if not more, quiet.

Insaniac99

Blinded220

dutchb0y

Dragzonox

Ironically, PS3 is supposed to be that "grill" machine. But now 360 took over the title?

HobbaHobba

Oh I can't see any reason to think he might color the truth; can any of you. I think I will go ask some Detroit auto workers what's wrong with Toyota's.

gwolf

Zanch

Tisteldun

Well, if yours ever conks out, we'll know it wasn't completely the machines fault... 4 days... what were you DOING?!?!?

Enigma_20XX

Enigma_20XX

To add to your comment... the PS1 and PS2 were CHEAPER!!!!! For a $400+ system to have such shoddy manufacturing is just bad, I don't care how much of a M$ fanboy you are or how many PS1 or PS2s conked out!!! Thank GOD for the extended warranty...

And as for the Bluetooth controllers cutting off, there's a reset button in a pinhole near the L2 trigger on the back...

Enigma_20XX

Friscodude

I don't understand why you are afraid to leave the PS3 in standby mode. It's standby mode. That means its off, so it's not producing heat. It's just not fully disconnected from it's power source. Gotta be pretty paranoid to be worried about THAT.

CitizenInsane27

That's 3 consoles out of how many? The NES was also Nintendo's first console and to think a company that previously specialized in making cards could get it right before a technology company is ridiculous.

And no one denies that Sony hasn't had problems but saying that makes it ok for Microsoft to completely fowl up their design is like saying all the people that Stalin killed is ok because Hitler did it first.

Microsoft is a technology company and have been in the hardware business for sometime. There is no excuse for a poorly designed console just so they could beat the competition to launch.

frankstallone

Taz

neojam

If GE was the only company that ever made a TV, do you think we'd have LCD/Plasma by now? You'd still be replacing vacuum tubes.

The people here need to realize that without competition, there is no innovation.

Amsterdaam

They extended the warranty protecting the RROD, nothing else.

Also this isn't a fanboy thing, unlike what you like to hide behind instead of coming to any rational arguments. I want to play X-Box 360 games. I want to buy an X-Box 360. I however, do not want to buy the 360 in the state it is. Hell I have the money saved up in a different account, ready to be spent on it. I can and will wait 'til they fix the issue. If that makes me a Sony fanboy in your eyes, well it doesn't take much.

MehGinla

Collapse The Control

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optimusprime

The best I can figure is that the system might have started overheating, affecting the dvd drive. That, or it's just a crappy drive and should be replaced.

Grue

Oh sorry.. we were busy playing games :)

@YoulikelyAms:

No.. they are fixing every console that broke for free, and extended every warranty to 3 years.

Sony many fanboys here.. It's crazy.

Cellien

I will not buy a $300+ game console that I have a 40% chance of it breaking on me within the first year.

That is an unacceptable failure rate and something that high MUST be a design issue.

SpaceDizzy

(I want a 360, but not until they're fixed.)

lunarworks

Yamster

surprised NOT

GospelGangsta

But for people to make this big a deal about hardware problems?
That textbook sized gaming book only covered up until the PS2 launch in Japan. I promise you, if they updated that book to include the years after that, the 360 hardware problems would take up a complete, detailed section. You cant deny that this is an abnormal occurance, and the fault is Microsoft's.
I was planning on buying a 360, but my step-dad bought us a PS3. I enjoy it very much. We also have a Wii, DS, PSP. The PS3 works perfectly, and coming out from Nintendo's strict Wi-Fi rules, it has a nice internet experience.
I'm not being biased either. In fact, I wrote a paper in one of my classes comparing the PS3 and Xbox 360, and I chose the 360 as the better choice. But after hearing all of these problems, I'm not so sure...

TheSonicGamer

Blinded220

Goddamn, 100 degrees C or more? I wonder at what point they decided this was the best they could do. Where's the coffee maker accessory?

brello

Blinded220

SAKY

Type-E

I've never had that issue, actually. Controller always works fine.

PapaBear434

RandyMonki

Rurouni

We expect expiration dates on food but not on consumer electronics. Granted they all die some day but we like to at least have the hope that they will surprise us and last maybe 10 years.

Almost like leasing a car, 3 years of gaming goodness after which you may end up with nothing.

Are transit and repair time added on the warranty period? Say you bought it on Jan 1st 2006 and sent it into MS and it took 3-4 weeks to get it back does the 3 years now end Feb 1 2009?

kevgav

CrimemasterGogo

Some are but alot arent. Blu-Ray has a much bigger selection than Hd-Dvd. Yet i own more Hd-Dvd's than Blu-Ray go figure. Better is an opinion, regardless they arent the same.

@asphix20: "Y'know, these conversations are really getting old. It would be different if it were a different croud commenting each time, but each time its the same 5-10 people making the same exact comments.

Dont you ever get bored?"

No fanboys dont, neither do posters who like to add nothing to the conversation but 'hey fanboys weve heard this'. Thanks for your valued comments.

Id like to see japan show me the heat on a ps3. Id love a comparison. My 360 runs cooler than my ps3 but id love to see the heat comparison anyway.

ShaggyB

@Witzbold: Once in a rare while I get disconnects with the 360 controller, though that may just be a byproduct of using fairly old rechargeable batteries.

muu

Tora

demonwolf

I'm going to be pissed if I have to send my unit in for another 6 weeks.

FoxHoundADAM

okenny_unbanned

pupaboy

However, there is not question in my mind that the 360 has a serious design flaw. I have yet to meet a person who has had a 360 for more than 8 months and hasn't had it die on them.

FoxHoundADAM

inajeep

Desosav

Dont you ever get bored?

asphix20

AspergerSyndrome

DasKonstruct

Case in point you don't buy a top end gaming PC and expect minimal cooling to work and with current consoles you should stop expecting the bare minimum of what you do is going to prolong electronics that run hot and fast.

DasKonstruct

the nyko intercooler has been known to have problems

i wonder why they still sell it.

a lot of people had there system break because of it.

Dakobah

Recalls are done because products present hazards to the public. Until the 360 blows up a house, gets swallowed by a child, sucks out someone's intestines or gives someone cancer, don't expect Microsoft to recall it. The proper thing to do has already been done. 3 year warranty, free repair or replacement for the RRoD hardware failure.

The PS3 has it's power brick built into it, so I'd wager it gets as hot or hotter than the 360 internally. They don't have a big enough install base to expose what problems this could cause yet. When an if they do have a nice sized base, I would not be surprised to start hearing repeats of the stories we heard around PS3 launch or demo units burning out, smoking and such.

Lastly, I think MS is wrongly getting a bad rap on this. Defects happen in technology ALL the time. Nothing man made is perfect. Personally, I think how a company acts when their product has been found to be flawed is more important than the flaw itself. Microsoft has stepped up to the plate and eaten a 1 billion dollar loss to be good stewards of their customers and take responsibility for their product. Given Sony's handling of the many DRE errors last gen, somehow I don't think they would do the same.

If I get the red rings of doom, so be it. At least I know MS will take care of me. What other major electronics manufacturer does that?

griffon2k

riggosert

my newly returned 360 really heats the DVDs up. when they get ejected they're super-heated. i hope it doesn't crap out while i'm playing bioshock or i'll be very very very... sad. or something.

he1ixx

appledumplingsfromhell

MS rushes shit to store shelves before passing through rigorous QA testing? Who knew?

Welcome to the X360 beta test. In typical MS fashion you're paying an assload of cash to iron out the issues with their products that they've already sold you.

Unfortunately with hardware you can't download a service pack 2 to fix the screw ups of your original build.

KingWank

They should really redo this test or whatever after the "Falcon" comes out, or at least to a newer model. They should also do it to the PS3, just for kicks. I guess I'm asking a lot, as these systems are $300-500 a piece. (you can use the cheap versions for the test)

sand0789

theberserker22

There is a small catch. After 3 years the TV loses 33% of it's brightness and vibrance, but hey that only makes it's picture match standard HDTVs. After 6 years it's picture degrades to 66% of it's original Brightness and vibrance and after 9 years it is a black screen, but then again by 9 years time you will have bought a new HDTV.

Who would step up and take this sort of TV today? Some people would, I think most wouldn't.

MS, by not properly designing the cooling of the xBox 360 have built an unreliable product. Don't look at 33% now wonder if after 3 years of use it becomes 66% and whether you have a dead system in 4-6 years with a failure rate of >66%. By creating an operational enviroment outside the designed operational range of the components it is not a matter of if it will faile but when.

kevgav

As for the xbox ps3 war, the reason it exists at all is because all the xboys have nothing to do but post while their consoles are being fixed, and the ps3ers have nothing to do while they wait for games to come out! haha.

And as an aside, my xbox is still functioning perfectly, almost two years old now!

Belain

Kokuryukai

That was then, this is now. The 360 has faulty hardware, no matter how you spin it, and a lot of people are feeling justifiably burned on it. Pointing at previous console shortcomings is desperate fanboyism at best.

I'd personally like to see a recall, but I doubt that will happen. Thankfully, MS fixed mine for free and extended the warranty.

frygar

You know, My Ps3 gets much hotter than my 360. i thinks its probably because the 'power brick' that 360 has is inside the case of the ps3. I never leave mine in standbye mode like my ps2, Just because it gets so damn hot. Stating you will rush out and buy a new console if one of your old ones breaks for any reason other than because it has better games, thus making your old system worthless to repair... is just plain stupid. You basically leave one hot zone for another. Perhaps doing some research and then making an educated choice on the mater would be best.

ShaggyB

i would say the no games issue is an easier one to fix.

the ps3 will have some sweet games this year.

i don't anticipate M$ fixing the design flaw this year. I do anticipate mare 360's dying.

i have all 3 next-gen consoles and by far i am more excited about having a ps3 and what the future holds for this console.

dh4645

dv8godd

JunjiHiroma2k7

friscom99

the 360 has the heat issues, and the ps3 has the 'no games' issue. which is worse? i guess the ps3 issue since i don't have any games to play on it.

kneehighspy

Granted the PS3 does not have many titles to choose from yet, but you Xbox 360 guys are just masochists! Wake up an smell the reality it's a seriously flawed product.

When the Xbox 360 can run something like Folding for days/weeks on end without crapping out in anyway, then I'll get one cause I like the idea of XNA. Until then I'm still steering well clear of them.

As a suggestion since it seems that really GPU intensive games like Crackdown and the like are causing it to overheat, maybe you can ask the developers to make Wii style casual games until Microsoft sort out their problems. Then Microsoft should have a new for old policy to replace the "broken" machines.

Also those of you who think that the 65nm will solve the over-heating problem will find that it just delays the inevitable. Microsoft need to redesign the interanals to allow proper ventilation.

Xbox 360 - shafting the gaming faithfull since 2005.

sauvage

KEELr

VGVisionary

Oh man that's golden..I mean seriously golden!! :P

Microsoft tried to get the head start and in the short run got some top games out for it.......but in the long run I don't see the 360 surviving among the PS3 or Wii if these Hardware issues are not solved. and btw I'm not a Fanboy, granted I can't stand the 360, I still acknowledge it's got good online service and games.

ftrunks2k

Dimipapa

RykinPoe

also worth noting is that they took temperatures from the heat sink not the actual die of the chip which means the components are running even hotter then what they recorded...

Enyo

Tepoz

Even with consoles overheating left, right and centre, most people will still just get a repair or replacement rather than moving onto either of the competitors, neither of which have any real selection of games.

CyRevenant

NPC

Since its like how my console hasnt bricked yet, but 2 of my friends ones has right out of the box.

As with any products, I think while shit can be made worse than others, some are also built better than others. :) And you must be one of the people in that category, along with mine I think.

Witzbold

I had it on top of my TV for ages. Then I bought an LCD, and so obviously this wouldn't work anymore. So I put it underneath.

Less a week later, dead. I kid you not. It could be coincidence, except the one I had before that also died in my cabinet, which convinced me to take it out of there in the first place.

splines

I have a launch x360. I have left it on over 14+ hours at a time, more times than I can count. My room at times can be extremely fucking hot. I don't understand how this same situation/console could cause the 360 to brick and for me it has not happened yet.

Maybe I have just been lucky. I dunno. I guess I should just knock on wood.

VonDante

Damn you MS, but damn you, I need a 360, so I'm shelling out on your Elite version. Don't screw me over twice (or the thousands & thousands it has already happened to). At least it's nice to know there's a 3 year warranty in place.

Cryton_Valance

That's not the worst even. A fan that works half as great as a PC fan? Just to reduce noise? I think anyone who buys the Xbox needs to realize it's a computer made to play video games, and is dedicated to media. If it's noisy, put it in a well ventilated area. I'[d rather have a colder Xbox than a dead one.

Luckily mines only crapped out one, just yesterday, the first controller slot was lit green and it showed 3 red rings. I turned it off and rebooted and it was fine again.

Codexx

hauser

ThisCharmingMan

ah here you go:
[www.xbox-scene.com]

battlemaus

360- Tons of games, great online functionality, the machine itself is just a meltdown waiting to happen.

PS3- Apparently built like a tank, love the fact that you can swap your own hard drive, tons of potential...which developers are having a hell of a time harvesting, because this thing has very few games that make it worth the $500+ price tag.

Wii- The little machine that everyone counted out, but now has developers scrambling to figure out how to design games for since the sales aren't going to be slowing down anytime soon. Lacks graphic muscle, but offers an elegant control mechanism that few outside of Miyamoto and friends are able to harness.

This article was an excellent read, it was nice to see an actual technical approach to sleuthing the 360's woes rather than the leagues of anecdotal evidence we've all been treated to across the web. But everyone needs to calm down, if you claim a fave in this horse race, you're being seriously disingenuous if you think your fave console has no problems. They all do at this point.

XeviousBlue

What the heck, just do a recall, fix 'em all, then send 'em back and drop the warranty back to year.

BTW - mine's still in for repair for an AV output failure (not covered under the new warranty). I received an e-mail saying it's been shipped and will be back to me in 2-5 days. That was 12 days ago...

floppylobster

TOCATL

Well or should anyways, since I recall for the PS2 one there is some clause for whats suposed to happen if the PS2 controller comes unplugged.

I havent seen the PS3 TRC yet so cant say for sure, which makes my statment more of an assumption than anything.

In the end though, a bit unhappy with sony about not having that up to par on launch, since it does effect gameplay regardless of ruining ones game or not.

Not to mention since its a Sony problem and not a problem of the game software itself.

Anyways it must have had to do with Sony rushing to get the system out and instead of fixing the thing, they must have waived it assuming that the problem will be so small that people wont complain about it.

I eventually will get a PS3 for all the solid future titles comming out, but at the same time though am a bit wary about that issue, since Ive gotten spoiled with how spotless the 360s wireless works.

Witzbold

I've had it happen to me, it's just the bluetooth re-syncing. It sucks, but it's never ruined a game for me.

CitizenInsane27

Seriously though, any other of you PS3 owners have the problem with the controller cutting out on you while you play games at times?

I wonder if Sony is gonna fix that problem, since its so against their own TRC. :/

Was a bit suprised when I witnessed that at my friends house first hand as he played Gundam Musou, also spoke with another guy on IRC during the game club discussion who said the same thing. Cept his was during play in Resistance.

Witzbold

It's not about true superiority, as much as what each individual platform has to offer. My choice to get a PS3 was based on a number of factors, one mainly being that while the 360 had more games, I knew the PS3 would get most of the cross platform titles (regardless of the framerate issues) that I like to play, such as Tiger Woods (yeah, I know, I'm lame, but those games freakin rock) and the exclusive titles would be my style as that Microsoft's choices so far haven't left much to the imagination. The Wii still offers me nothing in comparison to the 360, OR the PS3 due to their complete and utter lack of hardcore gaming elements. It's the same thing that happened with me and the Gamecube. Couldn't keep me interested. All in all, I think the 360 is a nice console, if it weren't a badly made piece of shit.

CitizenInsane27

Polyh3dron

Sony advantages: BluRay. Standard hard drive. No going critical after three hours of play. Free online network (although limited as it may be.)

MS advantages: Cheaper, lots of exclusives, unified online network component, considered to have the most comfortable controller ever made, and heats a small two bedroom home comfortably.

PapaBear434

thesillyone

Rabid wolves, I tell ya. Can't say nothing and not come off horribly biased these days.

CitizenInsane27

I don't know what kind of uncultured fanboy sites you've been perusing in your free time, but being a PS3 owner, that example was kind of lame.

And twas spoken from the mouth of a true fanboy.

CitizenInsane27

It was a joke based on hyperbole.

Just a little snark, guy. Take it easy. I don't know what posts you have been reading lately, but I have actually spent the last week mostly trying to convince people that neither the PS3 or 360 were solely at fault for the GTA4 delay, and that they both held the blame.

Besides, the joke that I made isn't anything that hasn't been said before, even by some very loyal 360 users.

Grow a sense of humor and get off my case. I swear, the first goddamned thing I say negative (even in joke form) and I get pounced on like a wounded gazelle.

PapaBear434

Nexus6

Yet, I have had to replace three Xbox 360 games that cracked in the exact same way.

I love the Xbox 360 as a game system, but technically and reliability speaking, it's probably the biggest piece of shit in the history of video games.

AnEternalEnigma

Plus using the same parts could allow for a refurbishing plan. You could send in your 360 and get it in the new case for a small price ($50) if optional, or for free if your system had RROD.

Lord_The_Night_Knight

My PS2 and Xbox were purchased as launch and they still perform flawlessly. I waited almost a year after launch to get an Xbox 360, and I'm already on #3.

AnEternalEnigma

ps3 fanboy: your 360 overheats! lMaO rOfL
faithful 360 owner: shut up stupid fanboy, i just got the 65nm 360 elite.
PS3 fanboy: well we have SIXAXIS and alot of cool games..err, i mean, WE HAVE SIXAXIS
tsk tsk..

i'm no fanboy, i have both and i prefer my 360 a million times over the ps3, better games, movies, everything.

thesillyone

Purple Dave

there's really no excuse for poor design.

don't they have one qualified systems engineer in the entire Microsoft corporation? jeez. what - no stress testing?

the 360 design: heinous.

watch how this will hurt them later down the road...

the next Xbox console? good luck with that. you've soiled yourselves with laziness, poor design, and lack of integrity.

case in point, my game boy advance has been alive and kicking for years. no excuses. it just works.

with all of these well documented problems, they really need to come out and do a full statement on redesign, revaluation, and compensation.

Strider_Seven

For any other problems you get a 1 year warranty.

Or something like that anyways.

Hope this helps out anyone whos in Japan with an X360 wondering about the warranty stuff.

Witzbold

They can't make console with 120mm fans. they have to go .45 nm quickly.

I want a slim redesign, a slot-in DVD and the wifi incorporated. Games are here but the machine is so not attractive.

harold

rcholbert

Witzbold

I never bothered to check yet officially though. Im sure if someone surfs around the J X360 homepage they can find something on it.

Currently too lazy to do so myself atm. :/

Witzbold

All seven of them.

PapaBear434

Providence

Dude, every 360 is affected.

And I seriously doubt that the only way to play a PS1 was upside down... a bunch of my friends had one, and none of them reported any problems with it.

I did hear about the PS2 fiasco, but that wasn't as huge as this.

SovMish

Its a shame that the 360 is doing so poorly. Granted I did buy a PS3 but the 360 keeps reminding me of my beloved Dreamcast... except with the whole death thing....

Black Arts Viper

Haha, "the Claw".

I do enjoy the 360's controller, but for some odd reason, it only really satisfies me for certain genres of games. FPS games are perfect on it, as a well overused example. But the buttons are too big and clunky for me to enjoy other game styles on it, i.e. racing games. If they switched up the analog set on the PS controller, I think it would be awkward, but it may work.

Damn you analog placement. You and stop signs are my greatest nemesis.

CitizenInsane27

If you do keep these consoles in hot rooms/enclosed spaces or on the carpet next to the TV they will eventually break down.

They will over heat due to high room temperatures and dust clogging up the air intakes.

Placing them on the floor will only speed this up, and keeping them in an enclosed space will over heat them even more.

They need to be treated like PCs.

Ive had my 360 since it was released and I havent had any problems.

I always keep mine covered with a dust cloth when im not using it, I dont over use the machine either (so it never over heats) and when I do use it I have it in a room that is air conditioned and kept at a steady 17 degrees, and its kept on a shelf well above the ground and isnt enclosed.

If you follow some of these (common sense) rules your machine will live a long and happy life.

AML

lordhewlett

Give us an idea of which one to buy.

CitizenInsane27

That controller keeps making it hard for me not to go back (to the 360). I love that controller and would be willing to part with $150 (maybe even $200) to own one that worked with the PS3. PS3 with 360 controller? Perfection. I'm getting sick of the Playstation "claw" and the cramps in my hands and pains in my wrists. But I got even sicker of having to constantly deal with my 360 breaking, so I chose what I thought was the lesser of two evils. My hands hate me for it.

Sloopydrew

The new heat sync and shorter drive will fix this issue and the 65nm chips will eliminate it all together as they run significantly cooler to begin with. Ironically the crap-out design would have been just fine with the 65nm chips as they don't need such a large heat sync or cooling solution.

penhalion

What, you're kidding us here, right?? This issue of 360s breaking isn't some random occurence or just a shoddy batch - this is a DESIGN ISSUE, a fatal flaw in every 360 made (as far as we know, there is ONLY one design in retail)! So, there is a possibility of 100% failure in the 360's future. 70-100 degrees celcius is way too hot for any piece of computing equiptment like a console. The fact that a the heat sink is trapped underneath the dvd drive is enough to make me think that you're fanboyism is blinding you. Remember: This is the GPU we're talking about! On a console, it is THE most important piece of hardware on the motherboard - so important that it should have it's own fan (or a fan nearby) as we see with PC card designs. But slapping a piece of metal on it and placing it too close to another piece of metal (the dvd drive, which btw is the reason why discs come out of the 360 so damned hot!) without any PROPER airflow being passed by and THROUGH said metal. That DVD drive is acting as a secondary piece of the gpu's HEATSINK! Man, this is design - and every non-refurbed 360 that has been shipped and sold is EXACTLY LIKE THIS. (Remember: 70 - 100 degrees celcius is 158 (70) TO 212 (100) DEGREES FAHRENHEIT! Do you wonder why some people's motherboards warped anymore? Even if placed inside an airconditioned room, the dvd drive components (and disc placed inside) will act like a radiator for the heatsink on the GPU! It's just way too hot - and no amount of fanboyism will change the fact that this is what every X360 has. It's DESIGN - not HATING.

Consolcwby

Microsoft really has a lot of marketing and public relations work ahead of them. I think they're still calling for Al Roker's head over in Redmond.

Tonyp1222

Now that is logical reasoning. Just keep selling and one of them's bound to work.

mcderek3000

CitizenInsane27

That's true. It's like when Sony had those exploding batteries. That wasn't a major flaw as the *majority* of them were fine. Right... right?

cubabit