mufasa

Anyways I agree with you. Sony fanboys are making too big a deal of this. I mean do people really think that the average consumer will actually care if the blu-ray has more space. Probably not. I mean I really doubt millions of people are just going to go out and purchase a ps3 just because of the blu-ray. They are not.

Kemuri

Enigma_20XX

Extromaniac

frygar

[www.xbox360fanboy.com]

Edge of Blade

[www.bizarrecreations.com]

Technopath

You're making that shit up and everyone knows it.

frygar

Seriously, even if Lair isn't as good as Mass Effect, at least developers have the option to use Blu-Ray. What if Mass Effect were on a Blu-Ray disc? What then? Why should devs limit themselves to an inferior medium? Don't get me wrong, though, this isn't the first time this scenario's happened. There was situation, a couple of years back, between the Sega Dreamcast and the Sony PS2. One had the standard format of the day, the compact disc, and the other was using this newfangled Digital Video Disc technology...

Yeah.

I just fucking went there.

frygar

sauvage

I think as more and more developers get more familiar with the PS3, they will stop bitching about how hard it is to develop for and we'll see some truely stellar stuff. And of course by then maybe, just maybe, Microsoft would have sorted out it's reliability issues, but it may be too late. Maybe Peter Moor jumped ship for a reason.

sauvage

Heliophage

Clutch414

Check the link:

[www.bizarrecreations.com]

"We've never had to cut content to fit on the disc, and we probably never will."

So...this looks like a moot point.

Clutch414

@DirkBelig: i really wanted to discuss your rabid "fanboi"ism thing going here, but you lost me somewhere between why supermodels were bad, and why sony fans shouldnt brag about the lineup the system has coming.

TheIrishNinja

In short, Sony PR has become tragicly predictable.

All MS has to do now is deliver day and night cycles to make Sony look like that one brainiac in high school computer class who corrects the teacher ever other sentence.

Edge of Blade

aoman

eilegz

Horhay2313

That is to assume that Sony meant for the PS3 to be a game machine FIRST. They didn't. It was meant to be a Trojan horse to sneak their proprietary Blu-ray format into homes after the failure of Beta, MiniDisc, ATRAC, UMD, etc.

Sony tripped themselves up by drinking the Kool-Aid they were serving the movie studios to bamboozle them into swearing exclusive fealty to Blu-ray. They told the studios that the PS2 was the reason for the success of the DVD format and since there were 100 million PS2s sold, that guaranteed that the PS3 would be a smash hit, putting a ton of units in living rooms and all those people will be starving for hi-def movie discs at a premium price. Win-win, right?

Wrong.

By setting the price at $600, they suddenly made gamers have to think about a purchase that could've been an automatic. The lack of games and the bleeding of former exclusives made the decision to get one even harder to justify to all but the most diehard fanbois who think the "50GB is teh winnar" bullet point is the end of the discussion.

A lot of PS3s were sold to home theater aficionados who were looking for the cheapest BD player - that it plays games too was just a bonus - but now that you can get a Sony BD player for $450 (at Costco), that economic edge is lost. Sony partisans like to claim that the 360 was rushed to market, but how do you explain the half-baked nature of interactive BD features where nothing is mandatory and early-adopters may be ass out for playing future discs.

Sony's "superiority" is a paper tiger. Blu-ray specs are a work in progress and Sony even FUBARed the release of "The Fifth Element" and had to be reissued. (How do you screw up the movie that every HT geek has to show off their pimp systems?!? That'd be like the Catholic Church printing a Bible that only has 8 Apostles included.) The vaunted Cell processor is a beyatch to code for. 50GB of space is convenient, but it still takes time to shovel data off the disc, so bigger will mean slower. You can install Linux on a PS3, but considering how few people run Linux on actual computers, who cares?

Paying extra for things you don't care about is a poor value and the fact the eBay market collapsed the weekend after the PS3 launched showed just how badly Sony had overestimated their hand's strength. (A buddy who stocked up on PS3s - importing Japanese units and securing several US units - told me he regretted not listing them BEFORE it went on sale.) That you could find a PS3 in store 6 weeks after it launched while the Wii is still scarce after nine months says it all about customer priorities: Price first, games second, potential a distant third. You go to anyone who is not a Kool-Aid-guzzling fanboi and spew this "50GB is teh awesomez!!! Uncompressed content!!!" noise and they'll look at you and say, "It's $600 and has no games and I don't care about movies. I'm getting a Wii."

This doesn't mean that M$ is flawless. The reliability of the units is pathetic; that the "20GB" hard drive only yields 13GB is lame; it sounds like a Harrier when the disk is spinning; the pricing of accessories like the wifi adapter is crazy; their greed over DLC like Gears of War maps and Guitar Hero songs is fomenting ill will.

We'll see what happens in the future, but the feeble technical specs of the PS2 didn't hold it back from trouncing the technically superior Xbox in the market with it's broader assortment of games. God of War would've looked more super dope on the Xbox, but no one cared, did they? The Sony fans didn't brag about how powerful the PS2 was - they bragged about the games. Now that they're screwed with the PS3, they've turned 180 degrees and are all about the tech specs and features list. Funny how that works, no?

PS3 fanbois can scream tech specs until the sun explodes, but it won't have much impact in the marketplace. To deny this fact is to deny reality.

End of line.

DirkBelig

It's a trend. If you're going to go next gen you must put next gen technology, capacity and so forth. I don't know why people all of a sudden decide to bash Lair because it's 25GB. This is only one game, think about the other games that'll be coming out that need as much space plus more. All Sony did was make sure that disc capacity will never be a problem for devs to create great games. It's up to the devs whether or not to take advantage of the extra capacity and create great games, it's not up to Sony.
You can't argue that it's better to have more than not enough.

thegunshow

trmn8r

sauvage

Not really. I mean, in races like that, if it were to rain, the race wouldn't even take place.

They did some0 "work around" to the problem anyway, so we'll have to see how well it works out.

semjaza

Sorry but if Mass Effect fits on one disk, so can this.

How nice of Sony to try and put a positive spin on this for Blu-ray.

Walker

edhe (xbl)

Um...no. Only if you look at the world thru PS3-tinted glasses would you come to this conclusion. As I said, more space is just lovely, but has no impact on overall game quality if the underlying gameplay is lame.

Why do you say some ports like SC:DA are inferior? Because they are less pretty.

It's not a matter of "less pretty", it's a matter of developers having problems working with the super-powerful-but-unmanageable hardware. Since you believe that 50GB is a panacea that ensures superior gaming, the fact that SC:DA suffered from frame rate hitches and graphical poorness indicates that all the space in the world doesn't matter if the coding elsewhere is poor.

Denying it is like saying "Size doesn't matter in sex". Well it does, at least for the impression.

Sure. But when you then proceed to take your massive tool and jam it in your partner's ear because you don't have a clue as to how to properly deliver pleasure, you know darn well that they won't be bragging about how huge you were when they talk about you to their friends. {8P

And that's what graphics is about. The impression they make on you.

"Hour of Victory" is built on the Unreal engine and looks asstastic AND is a crappy game. Tech is a tool. Give a Ferrari to a bad driver and they'll put it in the ditch.

More space=more details=more information=potentially more impressive game.

No. It equals more impressive VISUALS. Ever hear a supermodel or actress talk? For all their beauty, they ain't too bright sometimes.

Great gameplay with very good visuals >>>>>> Lame gameplay with teh uberz graphics and sound.

Also, if graphics weren't that important, you would have gotten a Wii, or stuck to last gen.

The games I want to play aren't even available on last-gen platforms, so it's a moot point. Software sells hardware, which is why PS3 fanbois are in terror over the prospect of MGS4 crossing over to the light side.

The bottom line is that PS3 fanbois are staking their manhoods on 50GB disc capacities being the magic bullet when it's more likely the PS3's Achilles heel.

The dismissal of negative reviews of "Lair" are a sign of how this is going to play out: Every game that reviews say look the same on both systems will be declared a victim of being dumbed down for the "inferior" 360 disc space - just as Xbox games were hobbled by the PS2's puny capabilities - and every game that is praised as being visually spiffy, but crap to play will be a victim of anti-PS3 bias. No way that the PS3 can be anything less than uber, right?

The PS3 is losing because it's too expensive and the general public doesn't care about 50GB disc capacities or flash card readers or Blu-ray players. They want GAMES for their consoles and if they want a system with nothing to play, they can get a Wii for $250. (It doesn't even play regular DVDs either!)

The PS3 will always be the most expensive system because Sony built it as the Swiss Army Knife uber-media appliance and format Trojan horse. Whether you wanted all the stuff or not, you had to pay for it. That's why the comparisons between the a la carte pricing of the 360 and its accessories vs. the all-in zero choice PS3 is specious. If someone wants to play GTA IV, they can buy a box for $350 that will allow them to play it. If they don't care about hi-def movies or going online or viewing pictures, they don't have to pay for it.

Doom 3 was a technical feat and a terrible game. 50GB just means that suckiness can possibly come in a jumbo-sized package. The growth in "casual games" proves the "gameplay first; technical stuff not first" theory to be sound. Peggle doesn't need 50GB to be digital crack.

DirkBelig

number8888

afroabdul

That being said, I dislike the fact that if I installed NGS on my PS3 that it still requires my disc.

theberserker22

M$ 360 need to go blu-ray. Anyway M$ is making money with blu-ray because the VC1 compression is owned by them.

M$ chose HD-DVD just to create a troubled water for PS3.

ShaddamIV

You can put Linux on the PS3 why can't you install Vista on 360?

There is only one explanation why some special features are missing from the movie 300 on blu-ray.

They don't want HD-DVD user to complain that the blu-ray version has UNCOMPRESSED sound that is soooo better than compressed256color sound of the HD-DVD version.

ShaddamIV

There is no other explanation. The 360 was not desing to resist to time. It was make to do a quick buck and leave like the XBOX1.

Do you think that M$ care about gamers?
They never cared about Windows users?
Just give them your money and shut up.

ShaddamIV

Red ray is dvd and cd :) The whole Blueray thing is marketing, but also color of the laser. Its the same color as hddvd.

And yes combo bd/dvd discs would be cool, but to be honest, I hate two sided discs... one side always ends up with fingerprints.

Belain

ndgovenom

FP_slomo788

The reason games can't go double disk in these kinds of cases is that the switching back and forth simply does not work. Think about every game you have ever played on multiple disks. You swapped each disk once. period. The current disk in play must contain all data that is relevant. So unless once you finish the first set of tracks in PGR4 you cannot go back to play them again multiple disks simply won't work.

As for Devs taking advantage of the BDROM, that seems to be exactly what Rockstar is doing with their new exclusive now isn't it?

db9

FP_slomo788

ndgovenom

Friscodude

Friscodude

FP_slomo788

Blu-Ray IS the next logical step in the evolution of mass consumer data storage of the HD era and its going to be like that until "Red-Ray" comes out with 20 Hexabytes of data on one single disk...

Storage for the last 14 years seems to like a 5/6-time multiplication of its evolutionary life.

700mb CD-Rom
x6
= ~4,7Gb DVD-Rom
x5
= ~25gb BD-Rom

etc etc

anakin3

"Wow Maestro Davinci, that plan for your newest work, The Last Supper is it? Well its great really, but you can only use a third of the wall. Can you make it fit?"

AlreadyDead

Just throw something in there. The original quote that started this huge deal was from a poster at a forum. The poster was Ben and he apparently worked on the PGR4 team.

He claimed that they "worked around" the issue of too little space to redo textures for night by adding 4 weather conditions during daytime. This implies that had they had the space, there would have been night but no weather.

There certainly is plenty of evidence that more space is preferred, if not yet "needed". There is also evidence that the $140 in cost for the high capacity drive could perhaps be better spent on RAM, processing power, HDD space, consumer savings, etc. not to mention not delaying the system.

That is the true debate. It is not whether blu-ray is superior and never has been. Of course it is. The question is whether or not Sony was looking out for gamers when they increased the cost of the console by 25-50% and delayed a year to add a very expensive, new, high capacity drive.

So far, there have been a few instances of space being a very minor factor on DVD9. As in the PGR4 case, the original quoter said they worked around the problem by adding something different. At the same time, however, one only has to look at PS3 sales, game sales, and their upcoming lineup to wonder "what is bluray doing". Oh yeah, it is winning the format war.

I guess I believe that blu-ray, while definately a sweet improvement, is not worth the price tag it brought this generation. Hell, for $140 you could have beefed the HDD up to a sick high level and installed games that come as two to three discs, thus giving you space and eliminating load times.

You know, there are just so many better things they could have done with that cost.

sand0789

FP_slomo788

@Rukland:

The FCC isn't requiring HD broadcasts. At midnight on February 17, 2009, federal law requires that all full-power television broadcast stations stop broadcasting in analog format and broadcast only in digital...which doesn't mean HD. Now mind you that if companies are going to broadcast in Digital they might go ahead and push out the best content...but I think because of the cost most shows will still be in standard def. Or at least Enhanced Def. Also the big myth is that everyone will need new TVs. You won't...just a set top box that has a DTV tuner/antenna in it.

Gooche

FP_slomo788

But surely its potential will never be reached if the inclusion of the BRD makes the console so expensive that it doesnt sell in sufficient quantities to make such development viable?

I think this generation was the wrong time to include a higher-capacity storage medium such as BR or HD-DVD - outside of the games world, nobody really gives a damn about it. DVDs still offer good enough quality for most people and are generally cheaper - i consider myself a big movie fan but there are very few films where I would go out of my way to see a HD version.

BlueTemplar

Personally, EGM is full of crap IMO. I used to read their magazines a lot before IGN came around. But they just don't have a good rating system at all. They just give an overall number and that's it, one measly paragraph of what they think, end of story. That's not too credible when you are being a critic and reviewer.

In anycase, don't try to put down Lair before it has even come out to the mass public. If it is that bad, well that is a good example of too much focus on graphics. But we'll all see in a couple weeks.

Also, using Lair as an example to attack bigger storage size is not need is just being ignorant. I guess ignorance is bliss really. I would take awesome graphics + awesome gameplay over good graphics + awesome gameplay. The point is PS3 has the room to evolve to whatever conditions for the next while. It is up to the developers to fully utilize the machine, which I'm sure they will. Remaining of this year and next year look very promising. In 2008, I think the PS3 will gain a lot of support. Rocky start, but it's been progressing steadily.

nextgengamer

I dont really see why a game would ever need 25gb, let alone 50. I look at games like Gears of War, and Halo 3 and they look superior in every way to games like R:FOM (which apparently takes up 20gb or so).

BlueTemplar

I agree, I dont see why the couldnt release a premium version of certain games that would otherwise come on multiple discs. Such versions could also carry additional content - encouraging people to invest in the HD-DVD drive.

BlueTemplar

AspergerSyndrome

I sell some HDTV gear on the side (and build MythTV based PVRs for people). From my experience, you're damned lucky if you can get a decent SD digital picture on rabbit ears. It's certainly not impossible, but you have to live in a good reception spot. For my own system, I had to put a 18ft (6M) pole on my roof with two phased arrays because I'm at the bottom of a hill and the tower is at the top (and line of sight is blocked by lots of trees).

@BlueTemplar: Not necessarily, several 360 games (Footie Manager, FFXI) state on the box that a HDD is required.

I can remember buying PC software and having the option of floppy or CD-ROM and in later games CD-ROM or DVD. While they're all installed to HDD, I don't see there being much of an issue with some 360 games having multiple SKUs for HD-DVD or DVD9 (with installation).

There would still be problems to overcome (such as no HDD in the Core), but Microsoft could resolve this issue in the long run.

Mind you, I'm not defending Microsoft's short-sightedness (as I see it). I reckon the only reason they didn't put a HDD in the Core was because they thought Sony wouldn't put one in the PS3. Not putting HD-DVD in at the time of release was pertinent (would have cost a metric shitload), but leaving out the HDD when the previous XBox had it was dumb.

Doshu

AspergerSyndrome

JunjiHiroma2k7

Yamster

Not necessarily, several 360 games (Footie Manager, FFXI) state on the box that a HDD is required.

BlueTemplar

I'm not going to read this whole thread, and I doubt you'll read this, but I use rabbit ears for my HDTV and the picture is perfect.

Mr_Fuzzypaws

Actually, 7.5 Gb.
Not even full DVD-DL.

Mrakor

Mrakor

Mrakor

PS3 vs 360 Drive Speed:
[forum.beyond3d.com]

Mrakor

TheIrishNinja

Well, not really - the PS3 is still languishing in 3rd place sales-wise and that isnt likely to change anytime soon. At the end of the day, if required most games can ship on multiple DVDs if required - it didnt seem to harm games such as the resident evil games on gamecube, or the FF games on PS1.

As for movies, regardless of which format is outselling the other - neither are selling in decent numbers. There are very few films that I would be particularly arsed about seeing in HD (maybe Star Wars, LotR, and Matrx - even then the latter two will be on HD-DVD rather than BRD).

BlueTemplar

ca$h

ca$h

But let's take the precious Lair example for a spin:

EGM's already reviewed Lair and it's not supporting Sony's example. Their three reviewers gave it a 6/10, a 5.5/10, and a 5/10. That's usually not a bad thing, but it's especially not a good thing in this case...

"crispin says the combat system is confusing, and the sixaxis controls don't always work the way they should. lock-on system is also jacked.
greg ford says the camera is frustrating in ground combat. the wide open levels hold a lot of potential but ultimately don't deliver
garnett says it's a "frustrating disappointment" with a few bright spots"

So Lair is pushing the limits of disc space, big deal. It's also reiterating graphics over gameplay (and maybe even at the expense of them), and that's a bad thing.

Sure, there are some games that might benefit from a little extra storage space, but those games don't exist yet. And when they do, it simply won't matter half as much as Sony would like you to think. Its clear at this point that their true focus is to sell the idea of blu-ray technology (this is evident in their incessant touting of it over the wii and 360 all while completely ignoring actual games). The only effect it will have on game quality is on their own, when they're ignoring the games and shouting blu-ray from the rooftops.

justhesh

thinred

@macca79: i agree, i want competition in a unified format.

@fragmaster: ..what? why would you want 720p put to 1080i?

@TOCATL: i keep hearing that, but im not seeing it.

@justhesh: you might be right, but youre comparing 2 very different games taht neitehr of us have played yet, to be fair.

@erlik: not a bad idea, but how many games can you fit the data onto a 20GB drive for, without constantly re-installing?

@DirkBelig: again, different games, thanks for trying. yes, more space to play with = bad, somehow.

@Warren DeMontague: as often the case, i agree completley with what youre saying here.

@RocketChump: so, uh, you just wanted to be heard without anything to say, huh?

TheIrishNinja

too bad its not ban monday.

mentalboy11

RocketChump

hehehehehe....

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! THATS FUNNY SONY! U guys are hilarious!

RocketChump

brooza

animalrocks

Absolutely true. But if you have a quality game to start with, less space means less of that quality game.

Take gears for example. Its an awesome game, but I don't think anybody would complain about the campaign being longer, having larger levels and/or more mob types. And I doubt any of those things would have made it a worse game.

Doshu

alx_non_working

FP_slomo788

These two statements prove that I'm right and that you agree with me. Why do you say some ports like SC:DA are inferior? Because they are less pretty. We all know pretty games don't necessarily mean quality games. But it's still better to have a quality game with nice graphics than not. Denying it is like saying "Size doesn't matter in sex". Well it does, at least for the impression. And that's what graphics is about. The impression they make on you. More space=more details=more information=potentially more impressive game.

FP_slomo788

The ONLY criteria being used to proclaim the superiority of Blu-ray is the disc capacity. It would be absolutely be preferable to have more space to store assets, but all the uncompressed textures, audio and whatnot in the world don't matter if they are arrayed in service of a game that is simply NO DAMN FUN TO PLAY!!!

KOTOR wasn't particularly pretty to look at, yet it delivered over 50 hours of compelling gameplay. Oblivion looked nicer, but it didn't become a better game when it showed up a year later on the PS3 with marginally better graphics. (Shall we discuss all all the extra disc space didn't prevent many ports from looking inferior on the PS3 - e.g. SC:DA?)

Games live and die on their gameplay, not their graphics. The GTA series was pretty ugly-looking, but it could be argued that without being able to coast on eye candy, they put in story and gameplay that made up for what it lacked in polygons and frills.

The neener-neenering of the Blu-ray/PS3 partisans reminds me of the folks who natter on and on about how swell the transfers are on the hi-def versions of "Hulk" and "Van Helsuck". Sure, they may be technically superlative presentations, but jeez, people, it's still the f***ing HULK movie that was so bad that they're making a do-over movie to relaunch the franchise. (I had free passes to "Van Helsuck" and considered demanding two hours of my life back from the theater manager.)

There's a difference between GAMES and TECH DEMOS. You know how people dismiss 3DMark2K6 scores by saying, "You don't play 3DMark"? Same thing here - you don't play 50GB of space, you play the games contained in that space. Imagine a game that looks five times better than "Gears of War", but is only one-fifth as much fun; you want to play that?

More space = more space.

More space =/= More quality.

DirkBelig

grosolan

If you want to know the biggest difference between the Xbox360 and Ps3 then it's the sound. The PS3 beats down the Xbox360 in terms of sound quality and clarity. games like RFoM still eclipse xbox360 games in terms of the quality of sound. Insomniac is known for great sound in games and they totally used uncompressed PCM to their advantage.

If PCM is so old, than why is it still used for master audio? They have the technology to record audio in a lossless format in real-time but even lossless formats have a slight degration when compressed.

Blu-ray is used for much more than audio and textures. The levels being designed on Blu-ray are much bigger than any Xbox360 game. You wont ever find a level as big as the ones in LAIR until the xbox360 can install data or use HD DVD.

This is why GT5 looks better than any racing game that has been shown on the 360. The extra space allows them to work on much more detail to take advantage of 1080p.

Vietone

dalejrfanfreak

Unique

I know I have the strength, deep down.

splines

tetrahedron

"Starting in 2008, the government will take requests from households for up to two coupons to reduce the price of some converter boxes by $40."- National Telecommunications and Information Administration - U.S. Department of Commerce (April 2007). Preparing for the Digital Television Transition (PDF). Retrieved on 2007-05-12.

No, it won't be HDTV they will be broadcasting. Only certain content will be HDTV, as it takes up a lot of bandwidth. Some shows will still SDTV or EDTV with less bandwidth. This will allow the broadcaster to run alternate/optional programming, such as another show or 24 hour news.

And, the bandwidth freed up is not going for transponders. It is being sold to telecommunications companies.

boobert

franklinjfresh

Anemone

Sparkamus

If they have the space to put textures on the disc uncompressed, the console has less processing to do, but more reading. Not sure which would work out better.

@slomo788: I totally agree about Motorstorm. Its my favorite PS3 game (inside view comes surprisingly close to the target render), but the load times for the cars totally sucks. The tracks seem to take less time to load.

Doshu

"What next? We usher in a new age of Floppy games and Voodoo graphics cards because complexed shaders and increased storage is so 2003?"

Well, there ARE a lot of Wii fans out there doing just that.

Ok, sorry, I couldn't resist.

PapaBear434

Having problems fitting data to DVD? Kill your day/night mode. That'll free up at least two lines of code and a horizon texture.

I miss whacky wheels.

franklinjfresh

Assuming Blu-Ray wins the format war, which it almost certainly will at current rate, when the next generation of consoles come around, Microsoft would have four choices:

1. No physical media, everything is downloaded
2. Continue to use DVD
3. Develop a new format
4. Use Blu-Ray, which would require royalty payments to the developers of Blu-Ray, aka Sony, et all

Malhavoc430

MissingNo

1. More storage is better.

2. Since the BR Drive is one factor that drove up the cost of the PS3 (and is hurting its sales), we won't know if including it was a "good idea" or not for a couple years.

It's either going to be "Wow, they took a risk and it paid off", or "Wow, that expensive drive really hurt sales".

We just don't know yet.

FlapjacksAreTasty

Good to know, if it's even a tiny bit like Panzer Dragoon I'll be all over it. I'm thinking those control issues will be history once the game hits the shelves.

blurayforever143

FP_slomo788

Unfortunately, that list is identical to this "wish list". [gtplanet.net]

Doshu

I'm just saying. Consoles like the 360 and PS3 don't have the power to run the content all while uncompressing huge files. 8 gigs on a PC DVD can be as large as 20 gigs, a little Windows CD of 500 MB can be around 2 gb after the uncompresss...no way could the 360 or PS3 run PGR4 if it had to be uncompressing data

Codecs also take power too, a Win9x can play a standard AVI perfectly, but give it a compressed DIVX file and it'll choke. Likewise, the PS3 can run uncompressed native sound/video files to make use of processing power for something else.

Is Lair really getting bad reviews? I was looking forward to it but haven't read any reviews so far.

blurayforever143

Lair's release date is August 14th, so I can't see how it can possibly have bad reviews when its not yet released. Even taking the two "reviews" that are on Metacritic (one for 90, one for 75) it appears the response so far is very mixed. Mind you, I don't expect Lair's control scheme to be stellar, but I doubt its going to totally suck either.

PGR4s disc problems can be worked around, but the results won't be optimal and won't be what the developer wanted to produce. GTR2 on PC has a dynamic day-night cycle, but the texture resolutions aren't in the same league as PGR4 or GTHD/GT5:Prologue. If they did that, they'd take a hit in visual quality (which is a big focus in PGR). Another option is splitting the cars on classes (GT1, GT2, GT3, etc) or era (60s, 70s, etc) which could also result in a more balanced game. But swapping discs will still result in a reduction in immersion.

Even if the PGR4 developers do get around the problem, the lack of HDD and high capacity disc format will still become an issue for the 360. The first KZ2 level (shown at E3) was 4GB in size, HS demo (all 5 minutes worth) was 1GB in size, NGS demo was 1GB in size, Folklore demo was 1GB in size, etc, etc.

At some point these differences are bound to result in a better experience on the PS3 than on the 360. Even if that better experience is only due to having to swap discs on one machine and not on the other.

Doshu

View of the back cover for proof:
[www.mobygames.com],26374/

Yet it would still mean there would be content worth using 2 discs for, and day and night might not be worth it for that alone.

However, it will be up to the consumers to decide if this was a wise decision.

Lord_The_Night_Knight

satanyoka

FP_slomo788

As far as several discs for a game go: For a free roaming game like Oblivion or Mass Effect that is a problem, as it would require quite a bit of disc swapping, for a linear game like Halo3 etc. though this isn't such a big deal, in fact multiple discs would allow for more varied environments.

Snowrunner

I'd just like to add to that with an existing comparison. While it isn't much, check out the features for The Darkness on 360 and PS3. There's a difference, and Blu-ray is the reason.

Again, nothing major, but proof enough that more space makes a difference.

N-G-G

Source: [ps3.qj.net]

FP_slomo788

And Core users get screwed.

N-G-G

Samicham85

FP_slomo788

FP_slomo788

FP_slomo788

VenoMuS

Because we all know that the THE determining factor in the quality of games is the capacity of the disc and nothing else!!!

Chuck Berry and Elvis recorded live to monophonic tape - as did the Beatles in the beginning of their careers - and a half-century later, their music is still listened to by legions of fans.

Today's music is recorded on Pro Tools rigs that cost more than your house at 192 kHz sampling rates, edited in computers and massaged with software to eliminate the slightest imperfection (or trace of soul) and the resultant product - you can't really call the resultant pasteurized process sonic cheese substance "music", can you? - is so vacuous and disposable that you lose interest before 50 seconds have gone by, much less 50 days, 50 weeks, 50 months or 50 years transpire.

8.5GB of "Mass Effect" will probably beat the three times fatter "Lair" down like a red-headed stepchild's rented mule. A few years from now, when people look back to this time in gaming, what will they be remembering more fondly: The rich story of one or the pretty dragons of the other?

DirkBelig

I really want to get a new 1080p LCD, but my current CRT-HDTV is only a year and a half old. Its more likely i will get an XBox 360 soon and play all the 3rd party titles on it in 1080i.

JustinS

/sarcasm

I'd really like to know what takes up 25 GB of data. Maybe all the on foot soldiers in Lair have a unique model? You know, just to take it the extra mile.

Cashatoo

Striderhayasa - Phillyyakk on PSN and Live.

Kiden4911

Kiden4911

This is an isolated case of Blu Ray having a storage advantage but more storage never hurt in the beginning. We knew what the PS3 was from the beginning, a prolonged investment. Now it's starting to pay off. Karraker might not wanna bring up Lair though. It isnt exactly getting the best reviews. I'd hate to see what 25 gigs of shit gameplay looks like.

Gagamus

As far as I know, there are more 360's in people's homes than there are PS3's.

elpierce

As stated earlier by other posters, games such as Oblivion recycled many textures. The problem here is that the PGR4 team is trying to put as much into the game as possible. They're going above and beyond their "industry peers" to provide more quality in their product.

I'd rather see immense unique environments and characters then a bunch of filler. The deeper and more in depth they can make the game worlds the deeper and more in depth they can make the games, if they have the room to do so.

When it gets to a point where you can't bring a game to what it could possibly be due to space limitations it's sad. Ya, day night cycles got cut this time, what about next time? What about when we get to a point when a game is so massive the textures, models, sounds, etc. (resources) themselves take up 80% of the space? Now you have 20% of the space available for the engine, maps, etc. You get to a point where you do have to span 4-5 discs or cut the game very short. The extra room for extra resources means the game can be more defined.

A-Rude-Hero

There's no way that any system (excepting some big clusters out there sure) can render high quality diffuse illumination in realtime. So scenes are built & lit and the illumination is rendered to a texture file.

So basically two different light environments requires double the texture resources.

housewarmer

Wow, please crawl back into the cave form which you came.

and the PS3, well, It's kind of obvious it was a good investment. I mean you cant relay on DVD's forever.

ffmusicdj

Dr Terror

For all those sayin "it wasn't bad to switch disks, don't be lazy, we did it back in the day!" That's true, but back in the day there wasn't an alternative. Back in the day boiling a pot of water to make a bath was very effective, but personally since we have them I'd prefer a hot water heater.

A-Rude-Hero

VenoMuS

VenoMuS

Spartan1308™

i seriously and totally dont get your point.

mentalboy11

Maybe they should cut out some of the completely erroneous cars?

You know, some of the seventeen different Mustangs, things like that.

Oh look, I unlocked a twelfth Ferrari to buy. Go me. And it even looks pretty much exactly like the other eleven. Because it's a Ferrari.

Dragoonkin

Oblivion was a big game of unvaried settings.

DVD is a limitation regardless if 360 owners admit it or not. With PC games having install disks that are 7Gb in size, the data is well over 8.4GB in size.

This is why Xbox360 games look much poorer than PC versions. C&Con the 360 didn't even look as good as my older PC with a Xp3200+ and a 7800GS and the 360 has better specs than my system. I was able to run in full 720p on my projector with max detail. The install was almost 6GB of compressed data that would have taken up much more for the 360 since the console can't compress as well as a PC.

Vietone

i guess there will be a point where the graphics will be in favor of the ps3

epionx111

Boboh

I've cleared Gears three times now, and it was extremely short. The surroundings were also in extremely tight areas which caused a lot more information to be zoned out. Gears of War probably could not be done on the X-Box 360 if the maps were designed with large open spaces. I'm assuming most level designers who have an understanding of consoles that read this can understand that statement.

Foliage

narutobuu

Oh and I do get a digital signal with analog rabbit ears. There is no such thing as an HD atennea, if you see something like that you are being conned. But right now I to get my over the air HD all I use is a set of ears I got from target. Work just great.

Listen HD radio is out now as well piggy backing on the normal signal. If you don't have the recevier for it you don't notice it but if you do it comes in through your normal car antenna nothing special. Same thing applies to TV.

Rukland

erlik

Truth. Who the fuck cares if you can't drive at night? Doesn't effect the gameplay at all.

Kemuri

mphz