thewisestfool

Jumpking04

"The hardware is just an enabler. The games are what matter."

I knew we could come to terms on this. Well done!
Now, join me in my effort to bring NOTSOCOOL to the realm of the enlightened!
;)

subnet6

Oh no, I definitely agree! That's why I said it. :-)

The hardware is just an enabler. The games are what matter.

Rectangle

But it was done, thats what we're saying.

"Hell, how do you even know it could have been done on previous consoles"

Like I said, read the comments. I don't have time to retype what was said before.

Anyway, the point you make, even though irrelevant to the previous discussion is a good one.

"It is how you bring every element together to make a fun game that makes the difference. Were these game play elements possible before? Sure. Were they all done in one game? No!"

This very comment is why I think the games on the Wii or 360 or PS3 all have great potential. It's not about the console, as the previous poster was saying (and I was disputing). It's about the games. I think you agree, you just don't realize it.

subnet6

@Avinash_Tyagi: No, not entirley; ive a problem with nintendo for themselves not bringing the innovation id hoped for here, so far im seeing what i saw on the gamecube, and i loved that, but here it is again, not a lot new. Hopefully, the holiday's entires will prove otherwise, and we'll see new IP's sometime after that.

also, calling the dev's "lazy" is an argument people use for every system, and its not a strong one.

TheIrishNinja

Is the Wii capable of online co-op play in Metroid like Gears of War had? Sure it is. They just aren't doing it.

Rectangle

"I'm not sure what your point is."

Then maybe you should read the comments.

NOTSOCOOL: "Gears of War is possible because of current hardware."

GENERALZOD: "I have yet to see a game on either machine that COULD NOT HAVE BEEN DONE on the last generation of consoles."

NOTSOCOOL: "Try Gears of War"

RECTANGLE: "So yeah, it isn't that previous hardware hasn't been capable of all of these things"

Actually, thats EXACTLY the point. NOTSOCOOL claims that previous hardware was not capable of gameplay in gears of war. Myself and others have demonstrated otherwise. And we're not talking about the PC. The PC is a superior system to a console due to its flexibility. It will always be able to outperform consoles, so holding that up as some shining example of console ability is ludicrous. Nice try though.

subnet6

But then again, hardware has been capable of motion controls for quite a while, too. I have a mouse that works pretty much like a Wii controller. So yeah, my PC was capable of motion controls. Microsoft had a motion sensitive controller (Sidewinder Freestyle) for the PC years ago. It is just that not many games used it very well. So I don't see anything on the Wii that couldn't have been done on a PC. Does that make the Wii any less fun?

Gears of War was a very entertaining game to play. They brought in some cool innovations like the active reload to give your character a quick firepower boost. They added a co-op mode where anyone, anywhere in the world, could jump into your game at ANY time during the single player campaign and take over Dominic. They added the cog tag collection mini game. The weapons they added to the game like the torque bow were very innovative. They added a chainsaw bayonet to the standard gun. They added a very intuitive cover system. They added some innovative bosses, like the Berserker that added stealth to what was normally a shooter. They added the Kryill which can only attack you in the dark, and shrouded the final boss in a shield that you had to disperse. And the graphics were absolutely stunning.

So yeah, it isn't that previous hardware hasn't been capable of all of these things in a very degraded form, just like a PC was capable of motion controls. It is how you bring every element together to make a fun game that makes the difference. Were these game play elements possible before? Sure. Were they all done in one game? No!

And frankly, I'm not sure that a degraded form of Gears of War would have been as much fun. Having rag doll sliced and diced corpses on the ground that you kick around as you run, which previous consoles were not capable of at all, is just plain comic book fun. :) Fun is what matters in the end. Games are supposed to be fun. Innovation in control schemes may be one way that a company decides to get there, but it sure as hell isn't the only way.

Rectangle

General Zod is right. The 360s and PS3 current lineups have yet to show anything that couldn't be done on the original xbox. Gears of war is a bad example. Go rent Killswitch. The gameplay is near identical. Even 007 Everything or Nothing is incredibly similar in gameplay. Don't get me wrong, Gears is a great game and fantastic looking but their isn't any gameplay that didn't exist last gen.
You may have something with bioshock or mass effect, but I haven't played those games to know if they could be done last gen or not.

subnet6

Then your problem is with the devs not with Nintendo or the Wii, Nintendo has already shown that the Wii is a very capable machine, and certain third party devs have come up with interesting uses, but the fact is Nintendo can't force innovation, but that's also why Ninty has recieved the lion's share of sales, because third party devs haven't tried to push what they can don on the Wii. Its a similar issue as with the DS , Ninty tends to make the best games on its systems because third parties are lazy

Avinash_Tyagi

I don't agree, I saw nothing in Gears that hasn't been done before, it was just graphically impressive

Avinash_Tyagi

However when it comes to televisions the "sale" statistics aren't that important when you are talking about the current generation.

The average person buys a TV every 10-15 years so even if half the TVs sold today are HDTV that doesn't mean you'll have significant penetration for years. Plus there's the fact that a significant proportion of consoles are attached to a family's second television which is unlikely to be HD for a long time.

HD will be very important in a few years but the numbers just aren't there to make it a must have feature.

It will however be interesting to see what happens when Nintendo do feel the time is right to introduce an HD console. Will Sony/MS have cornered the market for a generation or will Nintendo be able to leapfrog them?

paulmcg

Excellant examples, please tell me how Gears of War, Mass Effect and Bioshock could not have been done on the last generation of consoles but with downgraded graphics. What revolutionary things have they brought to the great gameplay table? As I have only played Gears Of War lets do a checklist.

Amazing Physics: No
Revolutionary AI: NO
Massive Expansive World: NOOOOOOOO!!!!
Shiny brown graphics: At last a yes.

GeneralZod

TheIrishNinja

I was thinking the same thing. Other than the early years, (NES to Master System, and Genesis to SNES), the weakest graphically speaking system has sold the most.

Gameboy vs. Lynx, Gamegear, TurboExpress, etc

Playstation vs. N64

Playstation 2 vs. Gamecube and Xbox

DS vs. PSP

Wii vs. 360 and PS3

Very interesting trend...

Downlord

I don't condone Mario Party 8 being number one or even on the top 20, but I respect Nintendo for doing something different with the Wii.

Fetus_God_of_Love

NotSoCool

All this talk of hardcore games also makes my head hurt. Games are getting easier and easier as time goes on. Take GeOW as an example, the only way you can get any longevity and difficulty out of it is by ramping it up to the hardest difficulty level. There was only one game that I had trouble with last generation and that was Ninja Gaiden.
I remember playing multiple games for the SNES that had me gnawing at the joypad in frustration.

GeneralZod

NotSoCool

I think that both have room for creating new sub-genres and full-blown genres. Only time will tell if the creative depths of gaming extend for such thoughts. I wouldn't mind seeing completely interactive MMO war games that would qualify in my book as a new genre. Never has war been fully realized on a console as to this point.

So, in the bitter end of debate, we're in agreement. Both consoles have much creative lands to traverse with the guiding hand of developers. But, as always, such wonders will only unmask them selves' to the awesome persuasive powers of time it's self!

NotSoCool

I feel Nintendo is getting an unfair rap when it comes to supporting hardcore gamers. Specifically -- I think they ARE supporting hardcore gamers, but hardcore gamers are simply upset and a little nervous about the wealth of more casual titles that are added into the mix.

Here is a simple way to see what I mean:

[vgchartz.com]

Look at this list of the top selling Gamecube titles. Amazingly, of the top 25 best selling titles on the Gamecube, only FOUR games have not had iterations released on the Wii, or had iterations announced as in development (this includes both third and first party titles, by the way)! By mid-2008, Nintendo will have released an iteration of every single major Gamecube game on the Wii: Zelda, Mario Platformer, Mario Party, Metroid, Smash Brothers, and Mario Kart. Of the remaining major franchises, Animal Crossing is in development and Pikmin is very heavily rumored to be.

So if one were to argue that Nintendo is making no hardcore titles, I think that would be unfair. What one could say, however, is that they aren't making a great deal of NEW hardcore titles, on top of their existing franchises. That's a reasonable argument, but that's different than the one most people seem to use.

LittleBallOfHate

Good rant. ;)

Something you said about our "sub-culture" reminds me of the Linux community. Sure Linux is cool, but it isn't "casual" user-friendly. And unfortunately, the Linux community are usually a bunch of tools when it comes to newbies.

The funny part is that Linux users desperately want to be mainstream... to overthrow Windows... but refuse to make any concessions that would allow that to happen. They want to be popular, but on THEIR terms. They want to bring people into the culture, but only the "worthy".

There's a moral to this story.

FlapjacksAreTasty

However, I also think that the Wii mote -- and the lower developmental costs for the Wii -- give additional creative possibilities, too. Simplest examples thus far: Cooking Mama and Trauma Center. Neither of these new budding genres would ever have been possible on consoles if the Wii didn't exist. Furthermore, Wii Ware really DOES allow for a lot more flexibility than PSN or Live do: the Development kit costs less than 1/4 of the 360/PS3 dev kits, and there are almost no restrictions on game development. That's a huge boost for small, independent developers.

I'm not suggesting that the Wii allows for MORE creative and new possibilities than the PS3 or 360 -- I'm just not convinced it has LESS creative juices, either. Both have their creative advantages. There are a great deal more new IPs on the Wii than on the 360/PS3, after all, and I expect that trend to continue increasing. Heck, I imagine that (just as Cooking Mama and Trauma Center show) we will see entirely new genres sprout from the Wii by generation's end, thanks to the controls.

LittleBallOfHate

I love my family. I spend time with them. I have a job. I take care of my work during work. However, I still enjoy challenging games that test my skill and mental resources. It's not about blind hatred. It's only about conserving our own place in the market.

And, before anyone asks. Yes, I have appointed myself the spokesperson of hardcore gaming on this blog. They'll be no voting or silly, liberal ideas here. We're conservative gamers and mad as hell!

(Note: Conservative=Republican is wrong! I mean Conservative as in reserving our position in the ever-changing game landscape.)

NotSoCool

It's about the numbers now... because we have numbers. I remember the home computer wars between Apple, Atari, and Commodore back in 1980.

Boy, if we had NPD numbers then, we'd be just as annoying as we are now!

Sad how I haven't grown up. But then, I wouldn't still be playing games on my TV ;)

FlapjacksAreTasty

Fetus_God_of_Love

GBA definately has that 10 year plan thing going on.

MetaKz

Soon, I believe, stealth games will use odor(like MGS4 is,) sweat and advanced A.I. to hunt you down like an animal. With more memory comes more game(in theory.) More detailed art leads to more detailed worlds. It's my wildest fantasy that GTA will one day soon have audio for every in-game day of the week. Which would lead to a more realistic environment.

It's just not the look of the game. It's the limitations of the games. I'm not bashing Nintendo. I'm just saying that their more powerful systems could effect gameplay as much as the Wii-mote.

NotSoCool

Dante18

Ah you're 28, ok then i'm a year younger than you, but unlike you I have no problems with the Wii's lineup, and yeah i'm cheering the numbers, it good to see the company I grew up playing taking chances and succeding, you may be ok with the only changes being more graphical power and more storage every gen, but I find Ninty's direction to be very refreshing

Avinash_Tyagi

well you say that now, probably in the comfort of your house and computer desk.

Now I wonder if that would be your same response if you were poverty stricken not knowing when your next meal would come, if at all.

Terrorsaur.

NotSoCool

TheIrishNinja

NotSoCool

TheIrishNinja

NotSoCool

Look at the charts buddy boy, games like Mario Party, and Pokemon are leading the charge now, there are not graphical powerhouses

Avinash_Tyagi

"In the week in question, 360 sales in Japan went up by over 200%,"

-Not what you predicted.

"came close to catching up with PS 3 sales"

-Not what you predicted.

"it didnot catch PS3 sales."

-Contrary to what you predicted.

"When the PS2 was launched in 2000, it had bleeding edge technology."

Hardly. Many a dreamcast game looked better than early PS2 games and the xbox and gamecube outclassed it a year later. Lots of good that "bleeding edge" tech did when the PS2 is considered the weakest of the generation.

"The Wii on the other hand, launched in 2006, with 2001 technology."

By what estimation? Clock speed? Ha. No console was as small, quiet or power efficient back in 2001. Nor were their wireless bluetooth controllers, wireless internet out of the box or integrated flash, or built in high speed web browsers. The Wii is not 2001 tech as much as dopes like you try to say it is. Maybe the CPU clock speed looks weak but thats because graphics wasn't the main focus of the machine. The areas that were focused on are pretty current for what anyone could produce. I doubt MS or Sony could make a smaller leaner console with any more power. Even MS can't make a powerful console without it burning up. If RROD is your idea of "next gen" I'll take 2001 tech any day. I love the 360 but it's certainly no shining example of the future of gaming tech.

"PS3 sales already more than doubled at retail since the price cut 2 weeks ago to $500."

Yeah, and they've already started to fall right back down.
Two times a small number is still a small number.

"If the PS3 is selling at $250 today, it easily outsells the Wii."

Um, it's not selling at $250 though is it? I could just as easily say that if the Wii was free it would be selling even faster but that would be just as stupid since neither one is reality. Get over it with the woulda/coulda/shoulda nonsense. Makes you sounds like a whiner.

subnet6

Dude i'm probably older than you are

Avinash_Tyagi

The two cheapest consoles today, the Wii and PS2, with price points in the mass market range are selling most.
Remember 100% of PS2's in America were sold at under $300, and over 80% of PS2's sold in America werwe sold at under $200. The PS3 cost $600 up to July when it was reduced to $500, still $200 higher than the most expensive price the PS2 sold at.
PS3 sales already more than doubled at retail since the price cut 2 weeks ago to $500. Imagine what PS3 and 360 sales will be like when their prices get to $300 and below.
If the PS3 is selling at $250 today, it easily outsells the Wii.

SteveRayburn

In the week in question, 360 sales in Japan went up by over 200%, and came close to catching up with PS 3 sales, even if it didnot catch PS3 sales.
Meanwhile, in the same week, Trusty bell itself outsold every single Wii and PS3 game in japan.

"yet somehow you also cotend that
The wiis "ancient 2001, XBOX 1 technologgy is not going to last"
Contradict much"

Cotradicyton? Nope.
This is the difference:
When the PS2 was launched in 2000, it had bleeding edge technology. The "emotion engine" was considered "the business" in graphics.
The PS2 didn't launch in 2000 with 7-years-ago, 1993 technology like the Wii has.
The Wii on the other hand, launched in 2006, with 2001 technology. The Wii took a big step backwards. There is no way its going to have the longevity or the sales of the PS2.
Plus of course the PS2 had a huge library of games, and vast third party support with games like GTA, MGS, Killzone, God of War etc which the Wii doesn't even come close to having.

SteveRayburn

Corrupted_Metroid

Nonsense.
The 360 has had far more # 1's in monthly NPD games than the Wii even since the Wii was luanched. The # 1 monthly NPD seller for Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb were all 360 games.
And the 360 has had far more top 10, and top 20 monthly NPD games sales than the Wii.
In the sceond half of this year, 360 games like Mass Effect, Bioshock, GTA IV, and the mighty Halo 3 will blow every Wii game out of the water, proving that gamers DO care about superior games, superior graphcs superior AI, physics etc, all of which the Wii's funny mini-games are sorely lacking in, and which the 360 has in abundance

SteveRayburn

TheIrishNinja

KamiNoYadoru

"conflabbit if i'm not getting tired of people trying to compare $120 - $250 system sales to a $600 one."

Tell that to the developers. They are the ones who have to decide which platform to make games for. Do you suppose they take into account that reason that the PS3 install base is so small is because of price? Or do you suppose that they make a game for the console with the biggest install base regardless of price? What would you do? This console war isn't just for consumer market share, its for developer market share and developers are starting to move away from the PS3 because of sales like this. They don't have much choice.

subnet6

Belain

thestone

Gausser

-

DarkNight_DS

okenny_unbanned

Game sales right now are showing that people don't like good games, never mind the graphic quality.

MehGinla

RiceBandit

usedtabe

Marlor

Hikaru

The "Golden" years were never as golden as we try and tell ouselves, let nostalgia go

Avinash_Tyagi

Nintendo is the mother of gamers in many respects. We suckle our gaming urges for her loving tit. Their gaming catalog has be our source of nourishment. And, in the middle of the night, someone stabbed her to death. Wouldn't you cry out as well?

NotSoCool

sweetie55

new-school nintendo zombies, take note: the argument, for years before you existed ("the golden years") was to fight the kiddie image and low sales with the simple mantra: the games are fun, you dont need buckets of blood and finance and sales to get good level layout and enjoyability from a game. Now, you're treating this like fantasy football and its great nintendo's getting love again and you're fucking it all up.

TheIrishNinja

Runna

Runna

Thats the real hardcore and when you look at things gaming hasn't been hardcore since the 16 era... really. Once the PS got here there where not games you had to pratice to be good. Either you know the guide or you just use save points.

The Wii is only proof of what you guys where supporting... casual games... The Wii is simply a Ps2 with motion controls instead of a dvd player.
Yet no one else really sells motion controllers that come with games that compeat with the Wii.

@y2kenjination: Yeah I hope those aren't japan numbers because that would be bad for sony... SO xbox 360 is going to end up on the 3rd floor now huh?

Runna

subnet6

It smacks more of the continued erosion of vocabulary of the general populace than it does the category of game being discussed.

Here's an idea. Instead of the age 12-35 male demographic calling itself 'hardcore' in some fervent hope that the games they're playing make them cooler, how about we call them 'bread and butter gamers'. That way, they'd know they're a major part of the industry, and have for many years been exploited by their supposed 'coolness' into buying a whole bunch of regurgitated, uninspired rubbish.

So I thank you all, bread and butter gamers. Thankyou for driving the industry forwards at such break-neck speeds that I've hardly been able to decide which sequel I'd rather play. Thankyou for bitching and moaning and whining about specs and hardcore games so much that both Sony and Microsoft haven't turned a profit on their latest products in their endeavours to please you. Thankyou for mocking those who are just becoming interested for the first time in our industry, thus showing what a wonderful sub-culture we've developed without them.

Grow up you little pukes. Be it Pokemon, Halo3, Bioshock, Little Kitty Island Adventure or Wii-Fit, more people gaming is a good thing, irrespective of what sort of game they're playing.

r1nce

Aren't you the one that totally got it wrong on all your pumped up predictions of the 360 beating the PS3 in Japan on the back of Trusty Bell? Yeah, I thought I recognized your prediction style. Maybe you should quit while you're behind.

You say,

"The 7 year old PS2 continues to sell 270,000 units a month and shows no sign of slowing down."

yet somehow you also cotend that

The wiis "ancient 2001, XBOX 1 technologgy is not going to last"

Contradict much?

You seem to think its great that the PS2 has lasted so long with outdated technology (much worse than Wii) yet you are completely sure that the Wii will fail in mere months because of its outdated tech. I wish I could be as smart as you.

As for me, the PS2 success makes perfect sense and only goes to support the idea that the Wii might just continue to do well despite being the weakest hardware this gen. Somehow, the weakest hardware always sells the most. I wonder if it will be different this gen. It's not looking like it from where I'm standing. Then again, I was silly enough to think that Trusty Bell was not going to push 360 past the PS3 in Japan, so what do I know?

subnet6

Don't kid yourself, game sales show that people don't care about graphics, top selling games are far from being graphical powerhouses, even on their own systems

Avinash_Tyagi

/Should really learn to read more carefully, rather than simply glancing over articles. Thanks for the heads up...-_-;

Well, if these are NA numbers, then no surprise here...although it's kinda sad that the PS3's getting outsold by the GBA (in Japan, too).

y2kenjination

DaveKap

d0mino

I kid I kid.

subnet6

So when are we going to see the $99 PS2?

LucidLearner

Shouldn't the PSP be above the PS2 now, since you corrected it?

SomeRandomGuy

It's funny, because I view the PS3/360 as "less skilled" in precisely the same way I view the Wii. Just a different perspective. If you aren't playing professionals -- who are, you know, real people -- you aren't involved in high skill gaming. Perhaps "mid-skill" would be appropriate for most PS3/360 games.

LittleBallOfHate

SomeRandomGuy

This has Japan numbers?

MehGinla

y2kenjination

y2kenjination

NotSoCool

SteveRayburn

@baberg: Don't hate gamer culture.. Hate Hollywood.. It sucks. He's not saying anything negative. But hardcore games are what we love. There are the elite in everything. Don't take away are bragging rights. A game of golf is all a old racist white man has.

NotSoCool

And the Wii is for kiddies and old folks in retirement homes. Its ancient 2001, XBOX 1 technologgy is not going to last, especially as more Amercans buy HDTV's. Already 48% of new TV's sold in America are HDTV units.

"It seems to be a casual market now a days. It's sad. But that's the way it is."

The only advantage the Wii has right now is a low price. Nothing wrong with the PS3 that a low price for the mass market won't cure.
Already PS3 sales have doubled merely from a $100 price cut to a still very espensive $500.
As PS3 and 360 prices fall, their sales will rocket up, whle the dated technology of the Wii sends sales plummeting.
The secod half of 2007 sales figures will be quite different from the first half of 2007, and 2008 will be quite a lot different from 2007.

SteveRayburn

claming

You're why I hate gamer culture.

baberg

@NotSoCool: Iunderstand where you're coming from. I don't want to play gimped versions of hardcore games just so my mom can play it too without the effort it originally took to master the games. If a gamer doesn't have the patience to learn a character in VF5 or tactics in R:FoM then let them play Mario Party (as an example). The answer isn't watered down versions of hardcore games. Hardcore games aren't meant for the masses just simply because everyone CANT play them. Thats why they're hardcore. Perfect example....Wipeout Pure or any Wipeout or F-zero at the highest speeds on the sickest tracks. Only the elite need apply. end rant

Striderhayasa - Phillyyakk on PSN and Live.

It seems like USA is following the same pattern as Japan - DS and Wii on the top, PS2 and PSP in the middle, and 360 and PS3 on the bottom (except in Japan PS3 outsells 360).

I wonder if this pattern will change around the holidays? I'll be tuning in to find out!

Jonathan in Kichijoji

DNess

PS3 sales will more than double in July. There has been a huge increase in PS3 sales since the price cut.
Will it be enough to overtake 360 sales? It will be close.
Only time will tell.

SteveRayburn

Moonshadow101

Sooo you are gonna believe IGN over NPD?

charliescene187

MehGinla

It reminds me of the MGS4 trailer where Snake talks about the new face of war. I think that reflects gaming and many hardcore gamers ideas about Nintendo . I'm not saying that it's a good thing or bad thing that Nintendo is aiming at the casual market. I just think many feel a little frustrated, betrayed and maybe abandoned.

Personally, I'm fine with casual games. I'm fine with casual gamers. I wish Nintendo would throw us a little meat here and there. But this is the new face of gaming. Again, I'm fine with it. If it helps gaming expand, go for it.

But what about us? The hardcore gamers that pride our selves on skill and achievements. I spent hours playing Devil May Cry 3. I died alot. I loaded even more. And eventually I gave up and started playing WoW... That's not the point! The point is is that we're part of a dieing breed. /dramaoff

NotSoCool

Samos42

R3load

Outsold nearly 6:1 by the DS, 4:1 by the Wii, close to 3:1 by the PS2, 2:1 by the X360, and even the Gba sold over 10,000 units more than it! Now *that's* unpopular.

I should seriously consider buying Nintendo stock.

MajoShinpan

DonWii

Iberianpower

Avinash_Tyagi

Sony should have never bothered with PS3 tbh, PS2 is still top dog imo. Selling that many consoles...jeez the thing is ancient.

robnubis

baberg

sweetie55

Hiltz

DigitalHero

TheHun

bangbangblah

Calhoun

NotSoCool

mandlebaum123

Red Peter

Believe it or not, PS3 sales were actually down this month. In a previous month, they were selling 20500 per week (82,000 for the month). In June (5 week period), they sold 19,700 per week.

I suspect they will increase for July since they returned to the $499 price point.

Rectangle

Way to go MS, now will see how ps3 sales increase in july with that temporary price drop.

Neon

Krytha

Heart-Skull-Kid

bigsamboni

subnet6