<![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards - Kotaku Comments]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards - Kotaku Comments]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> Its simple really even if Nintendo and Sony allowed the "original" version of this game to be sold where would we buy it. The major chains here in America would be unable to won't carry AO material. Europe has just banned it, although I suppose they would have had to wait for it anyways, so expectations of it being imported anyways is high. So you have the Japan market, which pretty much anything goes. The problem with that fact thats just not enough market to pay the costs of the game developement alone.

The problem is Walmart, EB Games, and other chains will not carry AO games. Germany and Europe and Australia have banned it.

So even if the game was released they would be unable to sell it with numbers that make it worth it. People say "release the original or I won't buy it" well let me put it this way, how are you going to buy it if they do this.

Of course we are going to see a PC version of this game, and I hope they release the unmodified "uncut" version of the game to sell even more numbers to those people that would buy it for that reason and people without a console. The personal computer market of course is different since you can download and install a game without an issue.

The console market has not evolved to that point where you can download a 9GB game and play it. You still need the disk to play it( unless you talk about illegal copies ) but even then you still have a "disk" to play those games. Granted if Nintendo and Sony and Microsoft said they would release AO if the description and symbol were changed, we might be able to purchase this unmodified game. Till ESRB changes their system to include a NC-17 and scrap AO it most likely will never be seen on the console.

Anyone who doesn't understand that a console for the majority of its lifetime has been for the younger crowd needs a reality check. Nintendo Wii being fun for all ages is a new concept, its still a console and will remain one for its life, it just will be fun for a larger crowd. In the end the Wii is "fun" for "adults" because of for the most part "simple" controls but will always be games like Manhunt going for the younger crowd. Lets put it this way I don't see my father/uncle/mother playing Manhunt 2 for fun.

TheDarkerPhantom

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> If manhunt 2 never came out for the wii, it wouldve gotten an M rating for sure, no doubt about it!!

slpknt_badass

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @Toasticus:

qft

joelface

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> " thegreatgazoo999 says:

@petrieslastword: A big problem here is that these aren't movies. If someone makes an NC-17 movie, anyone who wants it can still get it. If a game company makes an AO game, it can't be sold for consoles, and the consumers lose.
"
Believe it or not, there is such a thing as a PC game. That is where AO games go now, that is where they should go. Gamers who want to play AO games are PC gamers. Consoles still need to market to families and AO games make that much, much harder.
"
Also, this says that the ESRB can determine whether or not a company can sell a product they sunk millions into. Where else is that kind of power in America? Imagine if some morale board determined what products could be sold to the public."

What, you mean some giant, anti-democratic organization like the FDA? Part of the role of government is ensuring public safety. Sometimes, yes, that means regulating the "all-knowing" free market when private companies which by definition awe allegance to their shareholders, rather than to the public good act unethically.

That means actively pulling things from the market at times - whether that be drugs, food, or automobiles which are unsafe. They do it all the time.

Intellectual products are much trickier, because they involve free speech concerns. The government generally does not pull intellectual property from the market directly. But they do in some cases, for instance, in the case of Child Pornography, and even computer-generated child pornography, they do and with good reason - it is necessary to protect children.

As stated above, the ERSB is nowhere near this direct. ERSB ratings are more like the warning labels and age limits on cigarettes.

And similarly, they are both justified and necessary. I think any psychologist would tell you that repeatedly acting out a gruesome murder is not something a Child, or even a teenager, should do. Children's minds are far less unable to distinguish fantasy from reality, and even 17 year olds have far less developed judgement and decision-making processes than adults have. Allowing a child access to that is blatantly irresponsible. Lots of parents will let their kids play M-rated games. But any parent who let their child do the sort of things planned for Manhunt 2 is bordering on psychological abuse. There needs to be a distinction made that by the ratings board between Halo and Manhunt-2, that parents can use to make these sort of crucial decisions.

The AO rating is eminently necessary, and is justified in this instance. Buy a PC and get over it. It is precisely this kind of selfishly lezez faire and callous attitude towards the social good amongst gamers which gives the likes of Jack Thompson their ammunition. The reality is, if you asked your average American where they stand on this issue, they fall closer to a nutjob like Thompson then they do to your equally insane position.


nimonus

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]>

The rating process itself has remained consistent

Ahem... Bullshit.

Papa Midnight

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> I can understand why there is a need for the ERSB. I understand why console makers choose not to give their stamp of approval on games they don't want to sell (But let's not lie, there were plenty of 'adult' games on the SNES, for instance). I understand why Retailers choose not to sell them (like many choose not to sell pornographic videos).

What I don't understand is why people act like AO games (and, while we're on topic, NC-17 Movies) are such a big deal.

One year. That's the difference between M and AO. One year. That's it. It's pointless. I would understand if they said AO was 21 and older, I would be totally happy with that. But if they're going to LIE to THEMSELVES that one year between 17 and 18 has such a drastic difference in a person's maturity.

Now don't get me wrong, I completely agree with the need for the ERSB. I think we do need it so people know what kind of content is included in each game. It's only fair for someone to know what each game includes before they buy it. But the suggested age between M and AO is so pointlessly narrow that it makes it meaningless. It is far more a political move than one to 'protect the children'.

Seriously, all they need to do is bump up AO to 21, and so many people would be happier with the system.

Anifanatic

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> This is so absurd. Grown adults who can tell reality from fiction are having their choices taken away because... ? Blah blah blah protect the children blah blah...

What about those of us who don't have kids? We shouldn't have to suffer because incompetent and irresponsible parents can't use proper judgement in buying games. Yeah, kids are going to get access to the games. They're also going to see porn and drink underage here and there. As has been the way for decades. So should we bring back prohibition? I'm sure the world would love another Al Capone.

PlaidNinja

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> The continuing parallels between the ESRB and the MPAA are just getting downright scary. I've always had an issue with the MPAA's rating system in how its greatly flawed, misleading, and biased. Quoting said system as a defense to ESRB's similarly flawed, misleading, and biased system? That's just sad.

The problem, really, is how the whole NC-17/AO rating is something that JUST skims under the law regarding censorship. There's nothing out there that says "You can't produce this with this rating", but considering cooperation with most of the distributing factors, it essentially does.

For movies, very few theaters will show an NC-17 movie. It kills any potential for the movie to get any form of audience, and along the same line, any sales. It blackballs the movie, giving only the choice of accepting the rating and losing out on... everything, or edit and resubmit.

For games, it's even worse. AO is a true death sentence for anything not on PC, and a complete parallel to movies for PC games. Console makers ban a game rated AO. That means the makers can't even create a game to distribute. Then most retailers won't carry a game that's rated AO. That means they're both limited by medium AND distribution.

To be fair, I don't know as much about the ESRB and its methods of deciding what gets what rating, but if I'm correct, it's as vague and discreet as how the MPAA rates movies. Also, I'm not sure who's at work behind the ESRB, unlike the MPAA, which is run by the major studios. Is the ESRB run by the major game developers?

While the ESRB may not be as shady as the MPAA, the fact that they're using them as a defense is a bit scary. It makes you wonder just how much they truly parallel the MPAA.

Cyntalan

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> Funny how now everyone compares Manhunt 2 to porn because of the rating. But what is worse.. seeing a sex scene or seeing how someone get cut to pieces?

ahac

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @M.A.S.: If they release it without permission, they are using Nintendo/Sony's code to get the game to run on their consoles without permission.

They have the code to get it to run on the Wii, yes, but if Nintendo doesn't give them the 'okay', then they are using the copyrighted code illegaly.

ninjafetus

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> Also just to clear up the R vs. NC-17 rating for movies.

In rated R it is no child under 17 admitted WITHOUT AN ADULT. Wheras NC-17 is no one under 17 admitted at all, regardless if you have parental permission or are accompianied.

M.A.S.

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> What I am wondering is can the Nintendo, Sony, etc. legally stop Take Two to sell an AO only game if they so choose to publish it themselves? I don't see how Sony or Nintendo can "not allow AO rated titles". What power do they have to prevent publishers from putting those games out? certainly nothing.

I mean the game has to be pressed/manufactured to some extent to make the July 10th deadline. Can't Take Two sell the game online only through some distribution channel through their own website or otherwise? I don't see what would be stopping them from doing that, and then releasing an M rated one for brick and morter stores.

M.A.S.

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> I'm not going to even try with this anymore.


We're going through the same motions as the Motion Picture industry, and yet nobody cares to learn from the past, and people continue to repeat the same things.

Nickname

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @ Ashf7

If waving a motion-sensitive piece of plastic in the air while pressing buttons on it gets players "more involved in the violence" than merely pressing the buttons as they sit in the comfort of their living rooms (or other vidoegaming spots) using those buttons to manipulate some digital images on a nearby screen, if that controller plugged into that console plugged into a screen somehow isn't enough mediation to convey the sense that these activities are purely make-believe, then maybe some parent, guardian, or care-giver needs to intercede for the good of the can't-tell-games-from-reality player and unplug the console.

I can't find the link to it, but I recall reading articles about a study in the UK showing that violence in video games, regardless of what kind of controller was used, had less of an impact on viewers/players than similar violence in a movie because the experience had the extra layer of mediation through a controller: no matter how graphic it got, they could still feel a controller in their hands and buttons clicking under their fingers.

Morose

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> I think the rating system is a bit outdate, and should be completely revamped. I mean, if R and NC17 have the same age limit, then what the heck is the difference? Sure, you say one is more 'intense'. But if so, why is there no difference in restriction? Doesn't that mean the intensity is so minuscule that it doesn't even matter? Doesn't that mean NC17 and R are rather redundant?

IMO these ratings rely far too much on cultural standards, rather than logical standards. If their purpose is to protect the minds of the youth, than a logical viewpoint is much more reasonable and useful. Society as a whole may view one thing as 'evil', but that thing may actually be very beneficial and/or completely harmless. It makes no sense to me that ratings seem to pander to 'concerned parents' (read: overzealous idiots with too much time on their hands) rather than serve the purpose they were created for.

Shadowmist

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> does anyone else think that the controller for the wii could see it getting higher ratings due to the player actually making the killing action whereas on normal consoles you just use your thumb and press x. clearly the wii gets you more involved in the violence. For that reason im suprised if boxing games for the wii in the future dont get much stricter ratings as you are physically throwing the punches or ninja games etc will get higher ratings due to making the slashing action.

ashf7

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> I'm not sure. I coulda sworn that ive seen demos with disclaimers that "This game has not yet been rated". Course.. this game has been rated, maybe that window has closed.

Anyways, I think if anything this AO rating is evidence that the ERSB works. Just the previews and tidbits about the game we've been given have shown this game deserved an AO. If it had gotten an M i would have wondered wth they were smoking

Murrytmds

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> Why is it that Rockstar didn't release a playable demo of the game? Does the rating prevent public releases of playable demos?

Stitched

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> "Great article, very informative. The fact that R and NC-17 have the same age recommendation is a good point.

Shame on console makers for not allowing AO games."

What I think she missed on that comment was something rather important. MPAA regulations state that a person must be 17 to buy ONE rated R ticket. However you must be 21 to buy multiple rated R tickets.

NC-17 requires you be 17+ to buy One ticket and you can only purchase ONE ticket, unless IDs are presented for your accompanying party.

As such a 17 year old brother can buy a game for his sibling who is 12 no problem, but he can't take him to see a rated R movie. Now how's that for games being less strict than other forms of media. Sort of.

Xer0Ph0kus

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> Via Wikipedia: X-rated
"In the United States, the X-rating originally referred to a non-trademarked rating that indicated a film contained content unsuitable for minors such as extreme violence or explicit sex and thus was for adults only."

via Wikipedia: Motion Picture Association of America
"But the [X-rating], which was not trademarked by the MPAA, was often self applied by the adult segment of the industry to the point where an X rating could be included in advertising gimmicks and came to be equated strictly with film pornography, which was never the intent behind the original rating. This concern led to a large number of newspapers and TV stations refusing to accept ads for X-rated movies, and some theaters' landlords forbade exhibition of X-rated movies. Such policies led to a compromise with the distributors of George Romero's 1978 horror film Dawn of the Dead: the audience restriction would be enforced by participating NATO theaters, but the letter "X" itself would not appear in the film's advertisements or displays, a message instead being substituted: 'There is no explicit sex in this picture; however, there are scenes of violence, which may be considered shocking. No one 17 and under will be admitted.'

After all, the MPAA stresses the voluntary nature of the system and denies that the rating system should cause a film not to receive widespread release."


"Manhunt 2" the new "Dawn of the Dead"?

Nickname

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @Import2001:

"Why does it not surprise that the president of the ESRB is a female."

Dude. I don't want to hear your sexist shit.

Sullyville

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> So you can watch a guy getting his face deformed by a fire extinguisher in a movie but not push a button on a game controller. I get it.

Tisteldun

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @crecente:

Whoopsie doodle. I thought this was for all platforms. Shows how much I knew about this title prior to the controversy.

knulpm

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]>
I remember my friends working on The Punisher found out that they were going to have an AO rating unless they dropped blood in the torture scenes when you press a button combo in certain areas.

What they did was they make the scene black and white, no blood, and some cut aways from some shots.

AO averted.

Manhunt 2and Rockstar had to know that they were getting an AO rating after submission and they still did it anyway. You don't dialing it back some, what do you expect?

JohnnyLA

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @whizdumb:

It would end up being E and 18+ then since 18 is what we consider adulthood in the U.S.

petrieslastword

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> I give up this is so incredibly dumb. I just give up, this isn't even worth talking about. Like acting out killing someone with a wiimote is the same as actually doing it. There are these things called toy guns and they don't come with AO ratings. In my book there should be two ratings E for everyone and MA which would be 16+. That's all you need, but oh wait that's right its america. Maybe if you were george bush and massacring terrorists it would be ok.

whizdumb

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @crecente:

Nonetheless, the fact that none of the companies behind the three major game consoles will allow AO-rated games to be released on their consoles, is an issue that should come into consideration when assigning a rating. This is even more pertinent an issue when the game in question is only developed for and planned to be released on said consoles. Add to that the, completely unnecessary at this point, restrictions and bans retailers place on AO-rated games, and the reality that "AO" is more than just another level of the rating system becomes further apparent. Face it - the AO rating is currently a broken, useless rating for any console game. Sure, I'm fully aware that the ESRB has no ties to and little control over the decisions of Microsoft, Nintendo, Sony, and the various retailers, but that doesn't mean they should ignore the enormous ramifications of assigning an AO rating. Besides, let the people you interview respond the way you did - don't answer the ESRB's questions for them.

The question could go something like this:

Despite having no direct ties to the ESRB, retailers and console manufacturers influence nearly all aspects of the console gaming market. With all three of the major game console manufacturers touting policies barring any AO games whatsoever from being released on their consoles, a console game that receives an AO rating is effectively barred from release in its current form. Is this fact taken into consideration when assigning the AO rating to a videogame?

Blah8

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> They should just either modify it, resubmit it, and be done with it, and hope for the best, or they should just re-do it and release it for the PC. And everyone will still buy it. I'm sure it'd still be just as awesome minus the Wii like controls.

Myst3r1o

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> To those people saying allowing AO games would open the floodgates to Porn Games and affect kids.

First of all, if parents WATCHED what their kids are playing this wouldn't be a problem.

and second, if I recall correctly the new consoles all have parental controls for LOCKING out mature games and such if I remember correctly.

Its more of a need for parents to actually do, you know, parenting than anything. Its MUCH easier for parents to watch over their children's console gaming habits over PC to boot, and c'mon, if I recall correctly the average gamer age is >18, so more adults play games than children. Treat us like we're adults pretty please with a cherry on top? :P

Tora

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> There is actually a significant difference in R and NC-17 movie ratings. R means you have to be 17 to watch it by yourself, or be accompanied by an adult 21 or older. NC-17 means you have to be 17 no matter what, if your not 17 or older you can't get in with someone older. And NC-17 is just as much a movie killer as AO is a game killer. NO major theaters will carry an NC-17 movie. I know because I manage at a Regal theaters (largest cinema chain in the US) and we carry a strict no NC-17 policy, and i know AMC does as well. So if the two biggest movie chins wont carry NC-17, and you get rated NC-17 it is pretty much destined to straight to video or failure. Though i dont agree with those policy's, they are still there.

I agree that there should be an AO rating, but i dont think that they should be instantly blackballed by all major game retailers or by the hardware companies.

lorenzo.salinas

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> Jack Thompson must be laughing his ass off right now.

ZombiePuppy

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @mysteryperson-x: You seem to be advocating some sort of personal computating device. One smaller than a trailer home perhaps, with a phosphorescent gaze that will hypnotize you deep into the night and a communications cable that will send dozens -- nay, hundreds of baud(s?) into the ether.

It'll never catch on. 64K is too much for any human.

MaxVest

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> I can't say much I haven't already said, but at least they were willing to address some questions.

EmeraldDragon

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> Vince Desi's opinion on the matter:
[www.gamespot.com]

He does make a point of a game being violent and funny, or being just violent.

Murteira_Nabo

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @walrusbrown:
"Really? In Nintendo's position I would totally not sell that game. As a "family" system, that would cause an uproar."

Uh, yeah. Because, you know, The Godfather, Resident Evil 4, and Scarface are totally family titles.
Hell, this is the game that tipped me over into the decision to BUY a Wii, and I'll keep holding off on that until this shit blows over.

Mujah

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> A bit off, but I've always thought the ESRB should change the AO rating to something else.

Whenever I mention an AO rating to someone who doesn't know the rating system or isn't a huge gamer, they immediately assume it means a game is pornographic or filled with sex content. This is due to the word "Adult" meaning "sex" in other cases such as an adult movie, an adult book/bookstore, etc. Unless people know that an AO rating doesn't necessarily mean adult as in sex, it is confusing.

They should change AO to M17+ removing the word "adult" from it. If the difference between M and AO is one year in regards to age, then go by that in the actual marking. It's like the difference between E and E10+.

So yeah...M17+ would be better.

cashoreline1980

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> I don't get the AO rating. If M and AO are only a year apart, does that mean that people experience a moral epiphany at 18?

Nickname

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> Why does it not surprise that the president of the ESRB is a female.

Import2001

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @penhalion:
"Banned films never cause such an outcry."

You can't seriously believe that. Films being banned in the UK always causes at least this much commotion on the internet, and the only reason you don't get that in the US because there's really no way a film could be legally banned in the US (unless it depicted explicit child pornography). The closest equivalent would be a distributor refusing to release something (see: Disney and Song of the South), which certainly does cause an outcry.

The great thing about the current US film classification system is that although it encourages no NC-17 theatrical releases, movies can still be released unrated on DVD and they will be stocked everywhere (and playable on any DVD player). All mainstream horror movies are cut down to receive an R rating for their theatrical release, then released uncensored on DVD. It would be nice if there was some kind of equivalent for video games such as this one.

MysteryPersonX

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @raison: @slomo788:

But they didn't refuse this one game. This isn't some third-rate developer. This is Rockstar, kk? There's a difference between porno based games and actual games. M$ said nothing about this one game. And I bet you if Rockstar said no Manhunt no GTA IV Sony would be on it's hands and knees.

NotSoCool

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @ penhalion: "I fail to see who can sanely argue for a murder simulator and more importantly want to play it."

the same people who purchase or rent the unrated/uncut versions of horror movies could. It's a form of fictional entertainment on par with movies, books, and comic books: some people enjoy stories with lots of violence, and will happily pay to get such content on their console of choice.

Trimming the game a bit to get an M rating is fine, but, for the sake of the fans and the added business, make the removed content available somehow.

Morose

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> petrieslastword : Exactly. As soon as they allow one AO game through, the floodgates open to any number of pornographic and otherwise perverse games that quite frankly, the companies don't want to be associated with.

No, they could simply amend their policy to say "no pornography".

But the larger issue here is that MS, sony and nintendo are basically hardware manufacturers. BUT, they have control over what software runs on their hardware. That's ridiculous.

To me, that's akin to Dell determining what software will run on their computers. Want to run gimp? Sorry, we don't allow open source software to run on our hardware.

lordargent

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> I wrote this to nintendo, and i plan on doing the same to sony:

"I am 26 and a gamer. I won't make this long winded, but i feel that even with an AO rating [which it MAY have rightfully earned] Manhunt 2 should be aloud to be bought by adults for your WII Entertainment system. the gaming market has grown up and they want more mature games. I've seen nintendo be a kids company for years and i'm not sure that one game is going to cause a landslide to the dark side.

i am a consumer, i buy your product, i want Manhunt 2 AO or Not. I'm sorry if this doesn't match up with the 'up till now' corporate policy, but we as consumer's should be given a choice/option to buy what we want. I believe that kids should play the game and i would make sure those younger than 17-18 understood the reasons behind this. but to not be given a choice has upset me. I'm beginning to fear for my freedoms, the one thing video games have always given me.

thanks in advance for the freedom."

did i do a bad job of making my point?

jerrt

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> Whether you agree with the violence of this game, the rating or anything else there is one thing that remains and that is the 1st amendment. The AO rating is a joke because in reality it effectively bans a game.

What we need is another rating for all of those porn games so that this stops happening. We can have a level of violence and nudity for AO- and a level for something that is obviously been made as a porno game.

If that is the reason Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo are denying this game then the ESRB has failed. An AO game is basically banning the game from being sold, and the ESRB knows this.

We need a better ratings system that allows games of a certain stature be on the consoles without porn infiltrating it. This can solve a lot of things- allowing consumers, and not companies, make decisions on the level of violence they want.

JGab

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> An AO rating means that a game isn't getting published, and the ESRB knows that.

MrLahey

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> Well R* could still sell it on PC! Then someone can make the Wii-mote drivers for the PC version of the game and we can still use the Wii-mote to do all the things in the game that we should have been allowed to do on the Wii, or we could just use the keyboard and mouse.

Or R* could make the protagonist's mission to save the president's daughter, then it hould be perfectly acceptible to perform all the actions in the game because you are doing it to save the president's daughter!

Personally I was intrigued by the story of Manhunt 2 and I wanted to see if it was as good as the trailers made it (of course I know trailers are made to make us think something is good even if it isn't...).

ObusWolf

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @knulpm: Thats bk it's not slated for the 360.

Brian Crecente

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> There might as well not even be an AO rating since no one will publish or sell a game that's been labelled with it. WHat a big fucking waste of time.

Zanch

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> Unfortunately, ESRB hasn't been very honest with it's ratings.

I mean, remember Conker's Bad Fur Day for the N64? It got a M rating.
The remake for the Xbox would get an AO if they didn't censor most of the stuff from the original one.

If they keep changing their view on our games, Barney's Hide and Seek will be also banned from the UK in the near future! The horror!

Murteira_Nabo

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @Toasticus: Because they like money? Major publishers right now probably wouldnt start making none stop porn games but im pretty sure porn publishers would definately start doing so.

raison

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @BlackDove:

PV: We plead the 5th.

DarkTetsuya

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @Giolon:

Nintendo's content for all ages means that they don't supply products that cater ONLY for adult tastes. The AO rating is very explicit in it's meaning. It suggests that the content is for adults only hence not for all ages! AO unusally but, not always, means porn or obscene violence. Manhunt 2 certainly qualifies under the obscene violence category.

I fail to see who can sanely argue for a murder simulator and more importantly want to play it. Such arguments can only make authority figures wonder just how influential games are becoming. Banned films never cause such an outcry. Perhaps because you only passively watch a movie.

Seeing a vocal minority on the internet actively craving a murder simulator because they want to interact with it, will open a lot of parents eyes I suspect. Maybe it is about time parents started really asking just what the frak is little johnny playing!

penhalion

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @Spartan1308:

Yeah, a lot of people on this site are under the impression that only Nintendo and Sony don't distribute AO games because they did press releases to that effect. Microsoft has the same policy, but never released a statement saying they did re: Manhunt 2. So that's why we don't see "OMFG any1 wnat to buy a 360 cheap? posts"

knulpm

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @Llorean: Wrong about the MS allowing AO games. I found this out yesterday, b/c I also assumed that MS would allow AO games. Another commenter corrected me w/this from Xbox.com:

"Adults Only: This rating means what it says: The program or game is only for adults, meaning ages 18 and older. This is pretty straightforward. A game receives this rating if there are prolonged scenes of extremely graphic violence and/or sexual content. It is company policy that there are no AO games for Xbox® or Xbox 360."

[www.xbox.com]


Spartan1308™

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> Good article.

@angry_poster: NC-17, from what I understand, you MUST be 17 to get into the theater, whereas with R, you can go in if you are under 17 with a parent or guardian.

torsoboy

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> I dont think AO ratings being allowed would mean we would see more Porn games in the stores as well they are rarely even rated. I agree there are a fair amount of adult games on the PC but really those are not the mainstream PC games. If you go to Best Buy or Circuit City or Gamestop here where I live you will not find any of those adult games not sure how the rest of the country is but I suspect it is at least slightly similar. Really the same can be said for Video porn sure there are films with Sex scenes in them at the stores but none that are porn for porn sake.

Though I might have to draw the line on the 360 the thought of achievements scares me "You just unlocked Rosy Palm 30 GS Points". Really though they have tried to sell Sex on consoles games like The Guy Game,BMX XXX, Leisure Suit Larry, and DOA Extreeme Volley Ball and really they have not done really good so I wouldn't see that many companies wanting to pony up the cash to get a cheey might as well been programed in flash game approved etc.

Konchu

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> I think there's a more important question: With the knowledge that both Sony and Nintendo will not allow AO games on their system, what purpose does the rating serve for owners of that system beyond denying them content they wish to purchase? Being "adults", we are no longer the only ones eligible to buy these games: nobody is. This perhaps is relevant to the publishers of the consoles too.

The XBox360 allows me to say "Play all M rated or lower games" so that leads me to assume that should a publisher choose to release an AO game, Microsoft would not block it.

Honestly, though, what's the point in having a rating that says "Do not ever, EVER buy this for your kids" if every game that reaches it is going to take the bare minimum possible out to become an M rated game, to blend in with the rest of them, because it's impossible to sell the AO version? Retailers won't stock it and console makers won't license it.

Llorean

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> Good info Brian! Thanks for posting this.

sadkermit - soon to be banned for standing up to the ummm nazi.

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> I hate the console manufacturers for filtering what I can and can't play on the system I bought from them. They shouldn't be the ones who get to make that decision. It's up to the consumer to vote with their dollar on what they want.

modifiedbears

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> nc-17 not shown at most theatres? then what the hell is the R rating for?

angry_poster

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @explodingman:
Complain all you want, Nintendo will never budge on a business model. EVER.

shorty1k

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @slomo788: By that logic, the internet should have self destructed a long time ago. Hmmmm...I'm thinking of random percentages. 99.9999% of the internet is porn. 65.3445396% of DVDs are porn. How can we possibly have DVD players in so many households when they are clearly the gateway to hell?

The consoles of this generation have parental controls. Stores have restrictions on who can buy such games. Sony, Nintendo and MS certainly have the right to block AO games, but that doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do. If any one of these companies had the guts to step forward and put the responsibility back on the parents, I'd gain a great deal of respect for them.

Here's an offer for Sony. I'm sure it won't matter b/c they need to sell a whole lot more than 1 system, but here it is anyway. Have Rockstar upgrade all the graphics, textures, etc. Get them to implement your SIXAXIS controls, and bring this game as an exclusive to the PS3. Open your platform to any and all AO games. You do all that, and I'll buy a PS3 w/this game just to make a point.

Spartan1308™

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @Malyonsus: So faith in the complete and total righteousness of a system whose closest analog is rife with corruption must be the true sign of genius in your world.

Have you played this game? How can you make any claims about the content without seeing it? When the spokesperson is using a blanket term like 'obscene' they tell us nothing. Until the gatekeepers define what pushes a game from an M to an AO the system is flawed and biased. If the ESRB tells R* that they can have an M if they remove X Y and Z and publishes their findings then I will have some faith in the organization.

ElijahDProphet

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> The problem companies here are the console manufacturers and retailers. The ESRB is not at fault for rating the game AO, and Rockstar is not at fault for making the game violent.

In my opinion, it is now the job of the ESRB and possibly Take Two, to force the issue. The ESRB should find some way to say that refusing to allow AO games on a system or a store shelf is violating the purpose of the ESRB rating system (which it totally is). Consoles and stores that refuse AO games should be refused ESRB rated games.

The problem is the ESRB may not have enough power to take the necessary steps, or the desire to do so.

I suppose it would also help if enough of us adult gamers (assuming that's who you are) expressed our disapproval to MS, Sony, Nintendo, and Wal-Mart. Unfortunately, Manhunt 2 simply isn't the best game to use to try to change the system in this way. Who even cares about the game? The controversy is the only interesting thing about it.

theK

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> If the ESRB acts too harshly against realistic violence, it's just going weaken the standard. Realistic violence is part of everyday entertainment. The ESRB can only mitigate the PORTRAYAL of violence so that it appears in such a way that doesn't pander to the serial killer demographic of humanity.

Coherent

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> Are anyone seriously thinking there would be a burst of porn games on consoles? Please pass whatever you're smoking or eating, I want in on that trip. You can give the porn industry a lot of credit, but that's going overboard.

As for ESRB, they're just as flawed as the MPAA, having no goal what so ever to be objective or judge the game in context, but rather kill off anything they find in disregard to their own fragile mental state. I bet the ESRB also consists of 40-50 year old non-gamers that couldn't care less about the game and more about their paycheck (workers are probably rated on a quota, rather than quality of their ratings). How many of the reviewers actually finished the game from start to finish, my guess is none. Screenshot ratings...

However, there will always be the non-realistic "mommy organisations" (nothing against women) that do their thing and unfortunately some people are listening, it's sad how brainless and thoughtless people really are. "Why think for myself when this nifty little sticker can do it for me."

In the end Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft feels their customers are idiots and shouldn't be allowed to play games of their own choosing. "Games for everyone, except the ones we feel should be left out."
Public outcry? Nobody would even notice it if they weren't making a big deal out of it, so keep that lie for yourself.

tozz

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @Neon:
If they did appeal, and if the ESRB did fold, there would be such a shitstorm of epic proportions that the ESRB will just end up as the paper tiger that the anti-game crowd claims it to be. They made the right move, now Rockstar has to deal with it and move on.

ferrarimanf355

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> I look at it this way.

Picture the Nintendo/Sony/Microsoft system as a billboard in your back yard. Companies come out, they pay you, they toss a few dollars your way and boom, their product or ad is on display right over your house.

Now, say someone takes away your right to control what's on this billboard. You get no say in what goes up there. So things that you may hate might start showing up there. (You hate pop music? Too bad, there's a Spears comeback tour in town, and your house is advertising it!) Even worse, what happens when things that are morally pressing start showing up there? What if someone starts sticking a Confederate flag up there? Or adverts for a gay marriage chapel? Abortion clinic? Opposed to these things? Too bad, someone took your rights away, so now you're stuck with these things showing off over your house.

So, in effect, Nintendo/Sony/Microsoft doesn't want a billboard advertising penis enlargement and a picture of a huge wang hanging over their heads, and they have every right to say what goes on their 'billboard'.

Ampillion, Dayman. Fighter of the Nightman.

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @Toasticus: Man in these sort of things, never say never. I think it's safer to just stay away from them instead of believing Timmy would never get his porn game. Also, his mother might not like the rated M game, but it's not illegal to sell it to him or for him to play it. For the AO, law is involved. No one wants the law on their back. I see what you mean, but trust me, my scenario is not as far-feched as you think. Very difficult, but not impossible.

FP_slomo788

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> [www.nintendo.com]

Send your complaints about Nintendo's policy here.

explodingman

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> Make the uncut version PC exclusive, and sell a crapped out, toned down one for the consoles. Problem solved.

"Gaming for all ages" tends to mean it's always "family friendly", unfortunately. This means that no, AO games don't belong. Strangely enough, M games don't belong either. Strange world.

Lyner

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> I think most of us here know Manhunt 2 deserves an AO rating despite our denial, but the reason for this denial is that fact that we know what happens to a product (specially a video game) when it gets one.
Just goes to show the whole system is messed up (no one to blame really but I'll still look at Sony and Nintendo's way though), when I buy a media player, I expect I'm allowed to play anything I want on it and the company behind it does not decide on my behalf.

nya-chama

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @slomo788: That "little timmy getting inappropriate games" thing is an existing problem with M-rated games (mostly due to ignorant parents) that banning AO games does not amend in the least. If anything, it would be less of an issue with AO games due to the reluctance of most stores to carry them. And you can bet no store would dare sell an AO game to a minor.

@raison: Exactly, why would people make tons of console porn games? I don't really see that being profitable, considering how much more overhead (project approval, testing, devkits etc) is involved in making console games.

Toasticus

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> How many movies and musicians had to go to court because some kid reenacts or is inspired from them? And none of the movies get a porn rating because of it. Why exactly are games any different from this?

NoBullet

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @Sillender:
don't worry even if its more violent it won't get rated that high because of the style it uses. It could get away with intense animated violence.

jive238

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @thegreatgazoo999:
"If they want their system to be open to all ages, they should allow AO games."

I've been dwelling on this thought and I think I have come up with a reasoning behind not supporting AO. Thing is games rated E to M despite their suggested age groups can be played by anyone these games are not deemed too extreme that the need to be restricted to only adults and thats what AO says. If you are really wanting it to be open to all ages way then way do you support a game that is only for one age group alienating the rest. For a loong time everyone has been treating M titles as if they where AO meaning being restricted to only adult veiwing, its only since this game got the AO rating that every one realises that their is a higher rating and seeing the game get treated as its rating states become upset. If I understand the M rating description it only suggests its audience where as the AO states its audience as absolute and in some weird way thats not fair. Why do adults get their own specific clasification and no one else does? You can rate a game EC for early childhood but that don't stop granma from playing the game too.

Wow I pulled and arguement out my ass just now and it smells pretty shitty also this isn't really directed at thegreatgazoo999 just that quoted statement in general.

jive238

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> "In a recent interview, Suda 51 stated that this game will be violent, though different from Killer7. He stated that he will try his best to make No More Heroes as violent, or even more violent than Manhunt 2."
;___;

Sillender

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> Painfully generic responses from the head of an organisation that's so deeply flawed that it might as well not exist.

At the end of the day, this whole fiasco is a farce. The money America wastes to argue this shit could be going towards real causes.

stuminus3

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @Toasticus: not 60% but im sure a huge chunk of them are. Also with the internet being readily available to most pc users itd be far more easier to get porn to PC users through websites (looking around the net it seems that 12% of the internet is porn) then spending the money to make video games.

raison

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @baberg: You are so right... this is a tool to get them a fan base... Mortal kombat was for kids look at what we got! Hell it's even illegal. Oh hell kids will be scrabling even more for it now...LOL Credit cards will be stolen for this one...LOL

If they really are so hardcore then they will sell it any way! Do they have the balls? Can they even legaly have the balls to do this? The question you guys need to ask is if nintendo or SONy will take action against rockstar for selling this game as is. If they don't then this is a none issue and just away to promot rockstars new online store that should be opening in like a few weeks. With heaps of steam nasty AO content delivered by your neighborhood drug dealer! LOL

If they really can't sell this game and bush can stay in office then some thing really is wrong. This game is the least of our worries. Yet another thing is they should let them sell this game just so we can see how many people actually want it.

That would be very interesting... You never truly know what you are up against if you always find away to ignore it. Releasing this game could actually cause a decline in violent games that rely soly on violence. I know I use to love horror movies now they are just gross... and stupid... I'm always saying where is the scary in this movie? Maybe manhunt was the video game version true fear or maybe too much like going crazy. Maybe these guys have a really scary story to tell that will actually make you ask questions about your self... Who knows... I'm for that though... that would be cool in a social experiment type of way.

Runna

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> I agree with Michael Pachter when it comes to killing in videogames...Whether you are pulling the R trigger to shoot a gun or swiping with a Wiimote it makes no difference. You are still performing the same act. The ESRB shouldn't take controls into factor, because it was never an issue before the Wii hit stores and her statement makes zero sense.

"We've always been very clear about the fact that the degree of player control is one of several elements that the ESRB considers in the assignment of ratings, including the content itself, it's frequency, intensity and realism, context within which it is presented, and the reward system."

Um, so pushing X in the orginal Manhunt and watching brutal cutscenes was fine? I'm sorry I just don't agree with any of this censorship.

Plus don't give me the "children could be scarred for life" routine because according to the rating handed out, children should NEVER SEE this game...making it a moot point. You are getting into bad parenting and stores selling to minors, nothing Rockstar or Take Two can control.

Also who are we kidding the PS2 and Xbox versions of the orginal Manhunt sold like shit. Like the two versions combined might have sold 120,000 units. Out of all those people how many 10 and 15 actually played or saw the game? Maybe a couple thousand. Who cares...If the little bastard is gonna grow up to be a serial killer, Manhunt 2 isn't gonna push him over the edge. It might be something like an abusive childhood, getting picked on at school or being dumped by a boyfriend/girlfriend.

If the media and world as whole didn't still view videogames as a medium played mostly by children this wouldn't be an issue. Sadly no one cares what adults say on the issue. The people who this game is clearly targeted at...

Bones_Jackson

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> This is a bit ironic. The videogame industry wants to be treated like other forms of media by government bodies but seem so unwillingly to treat themselves in the same manner. Movies have the NC-17 rating, are published, and can be purchased from general retailers. A game has an AO rating and no one wants anything to do with it? The console owners don't want the game and retailers don't want to sell it? But...games should be equated with other forms of media? Meanwhile if Rockstar were to trim a few pieces out of the game so that it would be rated M and then it would be ok? At heart it's the same game and a few changes in content aren't going to change that. And yet it's perfectly ok to allow the game so long as it's rated M and not AO? Downright hypocritical from the standpoint of a few slight nuisances between the ratings determines whether it is ok or not and the unwillingness of anyone to allow the game to be published while it would have been perfectly acceptable as another form of media.

Aesteval

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> For your response*...

FP_slomo788

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> I personnally dont see an issue with consoles having AO content. Its got to happen sometime as games become a more mainstream form of entertainment. Look at media from the past from DVD, VHS, CD, Tape, LP and Paper there are many things there that are within the same realm as AO content that are legal even if they offend or disturb some people.

Now please do not misunderstand I think the ESRB probably did there job in this decision and I think they should be tough on questionable content. As well consoles are not an open platform so the manufactures do have the right to restrict content. Though I do think this is counter productive of games being thought of as mainstream adult entertainment but its an unfortionate consequence of games still being viewed as kids toys. Unfortionatly though the PC is the only system that isnt regulated where this kind of contant can be freely expressed.

Now on another note I think Take Two has been a little foolish in pushing there luck on the ratings. They as a developer should know better than anyone the cost of getting a AO rating even if it is allowed on the system. But Im sure they will tone this down to a respectly M rating.

Personally though I have no interest in games like Manhunt 2.

Konchu

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @NotSoCool: Yeah because M$ doesnt have a no AO game policy... oh wait they do. These companies are doing what they think is best for there company. I cant fault any of them for that. They dont want there machines to become homes to nothing but none stop AO titles. If Manhunt 2 gets released with a AO i bet within a month there will be 100s of AO games along the lines of "BRANDI PLAYS STRIP POKER". This is not something that any of these console makers want.

raison

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @Toasticus: No, but that doesn't prove that it wouldn't be the percentage of porn games for the consoles. But as you might have noticed I was just speculating. But I'm sure porn companies would jump on this fresh market.

For your respinse to petrieslastword, they wouldn't have to encourage them or promote them for lil' Timmy to look for them and find them. Then you can imagine how he would play with his Wii(-mote)!

FP_slomo788

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> Why can't they tell us what it was that got Manhunt 2 to AO? Was it just extreme explicit violence, Sex/Rape, or something else?

Hellsing

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @slomo788: Are 60% of PC games porn games?

@petrieslastword: Selling adult-only games to adults is suicide? Nobody's saying that the console makers have to promote or encourage AO games. AO games would be much more difficult to get than M games, so a bible-thumping soccer mom backlash is unlikely.

Toasticus

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @ElijahDProphet:
Yeah, the ESRB is out to kill games. Good job, you are a genius.

An AO rating does effectively kill a mass-marketed game, but that's not why the ESRB gave it that rating. That effect is incidental, and by the way, a direct result of the content of the game. To suggest otherwise is either ignorant or disingenuous.

Malyonsus

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @Nexus6: If you really need it to be PC only then just hit the intertubes button. I'm sure there is far worst than Manhunt out there waiting for you... *Shivers*!

Really they should make this a work of art and have it shown in a gallery. Then release the M rated one on the systems listed above.

So I remember them saying the frequency of acts was the main problem too. Well just release each level as a game and it's all solved. Depending on the amount of level just spread the price out ...LOL

Really if rock star really wants to I'm sure they could get an online site up and actually make more profit off this game because of not having a retail version.

If rockstar can take the flack on this one all by them selves then they should go this route. Also too what is stopping porn stores from saling this game? Are porn stores illegal in the UK too?

Runna

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @slomo788:
Exactly. As soon as they allow one AO game through, the floodgates open to any number of pornographic and otherwise perverse games that quite frankly, the companies don't want to be associated with.

petrieslastword

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @NotSoCool: Then you hope GTA 4 don't come out on consoles because Microsoft has the same policies on their consoles since the original Xbox.

FP_slomo788

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @ffmusicdj: It's not a Nintendo only thing, it's all three. Try to understand that they are protecting a market share instead of going after a bunch of perverts and have their consoles become other tools of pornography.

FP_slomo788

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @Neon: You mean Sony and Nintendo could get fucked. I hope GTA IV is an Xbox 360 exclusive just because of this. Sony deserves it after this. Mature console my ass.

If they release an un-edited version for the PC I'll buy it just to flip my finger at Sony and Nintendo. It won't change anything, but I'd do it in hopes that the other gamers that can't stand censorship do it too. Maybe it'll sell enough just give the biggest "kiss my ass" to critics.

NotSoCool

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @aestheticity: For what it's worth, I'm right there with you. I'm glad the game received its AO rating because it shows that the ESRB has some teeth. I wouldn't go as far as you did with all the emo crying about the world, but that's just me :)

baberg

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> What we have to remember is that the ESRB is ultimately on the side of the videogame industry, and that they themselves exist only to circumvent the type of censorship that has been suggested here. I have no doubt in my mind that Manhunt 2 deserves an AO rating, if only because it's arguable that the original Manhunt should have received one as well. The ESRB isn't using any moral authority to push select games out of the market.

If there is any blame to go around it sits with Sony and Nintendo (and Microsoft, who would also reject an AO game on their system). The ESRB is acting as a body that prevents government regulation of games, and have done their job; the console manufacturers are the ones who are barring this from retail. The stigma of the AO rating only survives because manufacturers and retail outlets force them out of the circulation. And that, too, is their right, although it's certainly fair to question their judgment and whether it serves the best interest us as gamers.

Dazz

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @drack48:
I also agree. How worth it is a system like Wii if you can't play AO rated games?

I bet more than half of the consumers that bought a Wii were above the age of 18.

ffmusicdj

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> I'm not sure I get this argument of "bad evil console makers!"

If you think about it, a console implies the following rules:

1. Games released by that console have to be approved by the console maker (unless you do homebrew, in which case it's not the console manufacturer's problem if the game doesn't work).

2. The ESRB is no different than a "reviewer" who says "Well, I found blood, guts and so on".

3. Stores are not forced to sell anything they don't want to.

4. If Rockstar *really* wants to make this game, without worrying about console makers, they could make it for the PC/Mac, where there are no such restrictions.

No one (in the US anyway) is preventing anyone from exercising their own rights. You can't force someone to accept or sell things that they don't want to (well, within regulatory reason before I get some dumbass who wants to split hairs).

Now, could you consider Nintendo/Sony/MS "cowardly" for not carrying an AO game? Sure, but you could also say the same of them for not wanting to publish "Bob's Crappy Console Game" either ("99 Dragons" aside.). That's the whole idea behind consoles: you accept that when you buy it, the console makers can deny someone's game onto this system.

The ESRB game "Manhunt 2" an AO rating - that is their pejorative - they are not a government agency, they are a private business publishing their opinion. Nintendo/Sony/Microsoft do not have to listen to the ESRB, but they have. Stores do not have to deny selling AO rated games - but they can if they want as well.

Rockstar has options, and if they consider it "art" and don't want to edit it, that's their right as well. Personally, I wanted to check it out, but I'm not going to go up in arms because companies practice the same right to *not* approve/sell a game if they don't want to, as Rockstar has to *make* any game they want to.

Of course, this is just my opinion - I could be wrong.

johnhummel

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @Giolon: the statement 'gaming for all ages' implicitly means 'younger people and older people' ie nothing unpalatable to those demographics, as opposed to 'teenagers and young adults'. thats the entire point of that particular marketing canard. can we please stop being idiotic and suggesting it means 'we will release individual games appropriate to age ranges'. i for one dont relish the 40-60 range of business simulators and midlife crisis car racers, or the 60-80 range of chase the damn kids off the lawn, or the 0-5 range of square peg square hole training.

ay, you know what, im done commenting about this. ive been severely disappointed yet again by my supposed contemporaries reactions. im fucking glad this shit got banned to oblivion because it showed me what a stupid and uncultured bunch gamers are. all the shit going on in this world flying over your heads, and a ratings board doing its job brings you all into paroxysms of outrage and protests of freedom. all i can see when i read what you all write is an army of ricks off 'the young ones'. theres no hope for you sad fucks.

aestheticity

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> 8. How much money was Take2 off, in terms of bribes, to get your religious, corrupted system moving into their favour, since you know, we all know that the racy games need to provide "gifts" in order for you to make that one year distinction?

I think you forgot to ask that one.

ClosedAccountDueToErrorsAshCouldn'tFix

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> R and NC-17 ratings are not the same.

R states that children under the age of 17 are required to be accompanied by a parent or adult guardian.

NC-17 states that children of the age 17 or under should not be admitted at all.

Darkyth

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> I've never been one for censorship, but I can almost see the point they're trying to make about acting out the act of killing someone. I'm sure there are a few kids out there that would get just a little too into it.

On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with taking a lead pipe to someone's head if your pushing a button to do it.

Spyrojoe

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> The thing I feel needs fixing with the ESRB is that fine line between M and AO. Either knock down the M rating a few years or punch up the AO a few and maybe make a new class that holds things that are considered pornographic to let there not be any confusion with ultra violent AO games and XXX games. But you know all the same this whole situation doesn't concern me much at all but here I am still watching the shit fly every which way.

jive238

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> The entire ESRB system rating is flawed. As you might already know, they don't even play the games while reviewing them.

littletad

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> Good interview and good journalism as always Crecente.

The ESRB is just doing their job, and in this case they have decided that Manhunt 2 has gone too far beyond the acceptable norms of violence for our culture. Good on them.

Rockstar will change the game to make it an M rating. They will do this because it will get them the money they want so badly. I for one won't be buying Manhunt 2, as I'm starting to see this as the publicity stunt it is.

baberg

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @thegreatgazoo999: They could sell import copy on EBay from Thailand or something like that :P

slimky

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> Make it a PC exclusive.

Nexus6

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @thegreatgazoo999: Look the problem here is that the AO that Manhunt 2 is rated would be the same that any hardcore porn game would be rated. Maybe the rating system is not accurate enough...
We both know that the game deserves an AO rating. If the console makers allow it, they will have to allow any other AO game. Perhaps they should make another rating for these porn games. But I assure you the day that a 14 year old knows about a porn game on his Nintendo console, he will do everything to get it. And if their parents see it, no more gaming for less than 17 years old. And that would be a loss of like 70% (at least) of the market share. So less money, less quality hardware and software, and console gaming dies...

FP_slomo788

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> Did Sony and Nintendo have no idea of the Manhunt 2 game content before the ESRB announced the rating? Do they just give out licensing rights and not check up on projects during development? I think that's highly unlikely. Especially since screenshots and gameplay details have been available for quite some time.

Also, what's the point of putting in parental locks on your consoles if you're going to dictate to consumers which titles are appropriate?

exolstice

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @petrieslastword: A big problem here is that these aren't movies. If someone makes an NC-17 movie, anyone who wants it can still get it. If a game company makes an AO game, it can't be sold for consoles, and the consumers lose.

Also, this says that the ESRB can determine whether or not a company can sell a product they sunk millions into. Where else is that kind of power in America? Imagine if some morale board determined what products could be sold to the public.

thegreatgazoo999

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> The AO rating seems much like the NC-17 rating.

There is little difference in who is allowed access to the first, and no difference in the second.

What these two ratings are, in essence, are a way for the respective ratings boards to pretty much kill a game or movie. The ESRB knows that most retailers will not sell AO games, as the MPAA knows that many theaters will not show NC-17 films.

These ratings give a small number of gatekeepers the ability to kill a project which has already been completed. The fatal flaw in both systems is that neither organization is willing to specify where the line is drawn, and are able to redraw it on a case by case basis because of this.

Television ratings seem to be the most fair. TV producers know that they can say 'shit' after a certain time, and what percentage of a breast or buttock can be shown before they will be shut down. Unfortunately for game and film makers these rules are nowhere near as clear in their mediums.

ElijahDProphet

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> I agree completely with the rating, but the fact that it bars the game from ever being sold is absurd.

I can understand why Nintendo wouldn't want it on their system, but I don't really see a big enough difference between M and AO to warrant keeping a game off the system. If they want their system to be open to all ages, they should allow AO games. If they don't then, they should block M too.

It'll be unfortunate for those who want to see these games, but then again, I'm sure Rockstar will find a way through it. And they'll sell copies hand over fist because of how much publicity it's receiving.

thegreatgazoo999

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> 3. An Adults Only rated game is akin to NC-17, I believe, for movies. Do you think it's fair to say that an AO rated game is essentially obscene?

PV: An Adults Only rating does not mean the game qualifies as being "obscene." And as confirmed on the MPAA website, nor does an NC-17 rating.

So why else would it garner such a rating?

6. Do you think the ESRB's ratings have become more strict since the issue surrounding Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas came to light?

PV: The key issue with Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas was to correct a rating that was undermined when locked-out content that had been left in the code of a game became unlocked. Although we clarified our rules at that time to require that publishers disclose pertinent locked-out content on the game disc, the rating process itself has remained consistent, as have the rating assignments in terms of parity.

I blame that one on the programmers, as my cousin (previously tester for 2K) explained it to me the way it was programmed the minigame would be too 'hard' to remove without changing too much of the game's code. (Basically complex programming stuff.)

DarkTetsuya

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @slomo788: Maybe not for you, but for many kids less than 12 years old it would disappear.

FP_slomo788

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> So if i am hearing right part of why it recieved an AO was due to the Cotrols of the Wii???

If that is why is the PS2 version an AO too??

vamp07

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @Toasticus:

Shame on them for not doing something that in their market would effectively be suicide? It pains me as much as anyone, but games are still seen as kids stuff, and I can't blame Nintendo, Sony, and MS one bit for not wanting to lose that much marketshare.

petrieslastword

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @Toasticus: If they did, the gaming industry as we know it would fall apart. Imagine that 60% of the games out on consoles would be porn games. And they already are having problems with the violence. Maybe not for you, but for many kids less than 12 years old.

FP_slomo788

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> There isn't a major system out that will allow AO titles, and frankly it is within the rights of Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, and whoever else to do so. No one has told Rockstar they can't create a product (in the U.S. at least), they are free to market a system that will play Manhunt 2 if they so desire. If you disagree with the companies decision, show them by boycotting all their products. You'll have to find a new hobby though. All the whining here means nothing if you won't back it up in your actions.

petrieslastword

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> Great article, very informative. The fact that R and NC-17 have the same age recommendation is a good point.

Shame on console makers for not allowing AO games.

Toasticus

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> @Ghede: That's something the retailers decided, not the ESRB.

Brian Crecente

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> Its not rockstars choice to sell it.

Both Sony and Nintendo gave said NO to AO.

Rockstar got fucked and thats there problem now.

I hope they get an appeal tbough as the game SHOULD be M.

Neon

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> was there ever a list of the things that made this game so over the top that it deserved a AO? From the things ive heard it should have gotten an AO but i really would like to know some specifics.

raison

]]> <![CDATA[ESRB Head Talks AO, Manhunt 2 and Community Standards]]> I wish you had asked a question regarding most retailers refusal to even carry AO games. I don't like the fact that the ESRB has the power to effectively destroy a games chance of selling. Sure they are eth