farmerbob

farmerbob

Well, I guess you were wrong about not needing one, weren't you, you anonymous UK citizen? This would be a Free Speech violation here in the U.S. but over there in the U.K. it is "an unavoidable action" i.e. they gave into the political pressure and just banned it outright. I guarantee the game could've been properly edited for the U.K.'s M-rating (whatever it is, 15+?), but Manhunt 2 was targeted from the very beginning because of that murder case.

Hell, if Rockstar had developed the game to be less violent than the first it still would've gotten banned, because without the power of a (nearly) unchangeable constitution, any political force can kowtow to the pressure, and indeed will, if it ensures the good will of the masses.

Free speech (something declared by the U.N. as being an inalieble right of every single human being on the face of the Earth) apparently isn't protected in the U.K.

Baramos

JohnnyNagle555

What gets me is this almost fanatical devotion to Rock Star that they have, its really quite sad. With the whole Hot Coffee mod in GTA:SA it was a modification for God's sake, people had to intentionally set out to install a patch so that they could play the sex scene (may I also add that the equally bad-taste sex scene in Fahrentheit was just left in!).

Finally, a point I always make in situations like this, is if we took all the computer games away from children there would be a lot more violence from them. Or as Bill Hicks said "If you sit around listening to records backwards all day, you ARE Satan, and don't go ruining my stereo just to prove a f***ing point."

dazzlerboi

Too often it is burdensome to find out what is legal and what is not, particularly regarding statutes that have been overturned. But Congress did see fit to at least pass the bill in the first place, so I feel your pain and see your point about hypocrisy.

At least Kotaku doesn't feel any pain. I think these comments are deader than my lingering doubts about Keanu Reeves' sexuality.

MaxVest

The copy of the game was actually found in the bedroom of the 14 year old boy who was murdered, not the murderers.

Living in Ireland, I was looking forward to this game, the first really gritty grown up and mature game on the wii, or any Nintendo console. Even though this is the first game banned by the IFCO I think it is disgraceful, we have the right to choose.

And for all you saying that the BBFC and IFCO are government bodies, they are independent and only funded by the government to provide a public service. I do respect these organisations, the BBFC more than the IFCO (who are a little more strict on movies, if they are boderline 16/18, BBFC will give it 16, while IFCO will give it 18). Luckily, I can import it, or buy it in Amsterdam, where it will be 16's. The good thing about the EU is that we can get our games from other contries, even if more than two ban it, unlike USA and Canada, though I'm not sure how often games get banned there.

Ischuros

My understanding was that it is illegal.

This link seems to support that

[www.crime-research.org]

However, I shall rsearch further.

Cruithne

Computer-generated pornographic images of children have been upheld as protected speech in the United States. In fact, in order to uphold a criminal prosecution for possession of child pornography, prosecutors must prove that images of children are real and not computer-generated.
See US v. Fabrizio, 2006 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 56327 for a fuller explanation.

MaxVest

And blame the parents? wtf? Oh yea let's release a baby seat that says "WARNING: This my kill your child". The government allows its release and I grantee you that baby's will die.

I have a problem with many things that governments do, but censorship is not one of them. Considering that something like at least 90% of the population is stupid you minas well be saying "here kids have some matches and gasolene. Try not to burn yourself".

Nintendonien

BodyOfTheMany

ferrarimanf355

The UK needs to get a first amendment. Censorship in this day and age is highly ridiculous.

ca$h

ashf7

RedRedSuit

In my opinion, people who use the argument(s) that it's the parent's/retailer's/publisher's responsibility are just passing the buck. We're told to vote with our pockets, to not buy the crap games and that slowly, maybe, people will stop making crap games. But the majority of people don't bother voting with their pockets. The majority of the game-buying public don't really care enough to bother learning before paying. Same with this situation. Nobody cares. There are far too many idiots in the world.

These are the idiots who'll sell this game to a 12 year old and think that's ok. They're the idiots who'll happily let their kids play it because they don't care enough to see if it's suitable for their kids. Hey it's just a video game! No harm, right? Bull. Too many people don't give a damn. Too many people pass the buck.

And Rockstar themselves? The developers are idiots too for giving the anti-videogame lobbyists an excuse to keep breathing. The developers are the ones ultimately giving those morons the airtime. I can understand that some would say if people stop making violent games then they're giving in to the anti-videogame violence crowd. They're giving up a bit of free speech and the right we have to express ourselves. And that's fine to a certain extent. But once you cross a certain line you give those people more ammunition then they should ever have. Letting this game onto the shelves would be, in my view, encouraging Jack the muppet and his buddies to literally no end.

So ultimately I think it's a good thing. Censorship is bad, in general. But I don't think there'd be any sort of need for censorship if there were less idiots in the world, and more people who actually give a damn about the world they live in. It's always somebody else's problem. There's people who try and make things better, people who do sweet f*** all and say it's someone else's job, and people (in this case Rockstar) who actively cause controversy and make things worse. It's not as if this game would have any deep meaning or message to give. If it did then there'd be an excuse to give it a chance. All it's doing, all it's made for, is provoking. They didn't set out to make an absolutely brilliant and entertaining game that happens to be violent, like GTA or Gears of War, for instance. No. They set out to provoke in a thoroughly over-the-top way.

So I'm glad it's banned. Maybe if enough games like this get banned then developers will concentrate more on making something genuinely good, then on filling up with gore just to make it 'cool' to a specific type of person, and provoke the people they don't like.

Leaving the decision to parents, the majority of whom are complete and utter idiots, is not good enough. The BBFC obviously know the world is full of stupid people, and the only way to stop kids playing the game is to ban it. Censorship is generally bad, but in this case maybe it's the only way.

There was a comment up above that said: "They have ratings for youngsters, which is fair enough, as they're in their formative period, but mature adults don't need such protection. Its an insult to our intelligence really." - I disagree that it's an insult, because I don't think most adults are either mature or intelligent in the first place. Most adults are idiots. They'd sell this game to kids, they'd let their kids play it, they'd think it was cool. Idiots. The only way to stop the idiots is by banning it.

HorseMonkey

What consenting adults do to each other in private, is their business.
However, take the case of that German guy who met someone on the internet, they talked about murder fantasies and one guy consented to be killed by the other.
It's stepped over the line.

Again, my point is that there is a line.

Cruithne

Do I agree that fake child pornography should be banned? of course not! The fact that it is is a terrible failing of our legal system. We have little to no understanding of what causes people to have weird attractions, and there is nothing we can do to stop it. As long as they understand that they can never act out those fantasies, and theres a damn good reason for that, we have no right to police their thoughts. That is a difficult discussion to have, but I honestly think that turning a blind eye to these urges and banning every form of release these people can get hold of, even if it's morally sound, is the worst thing we can do to them.

Following the rest of your post, you apparently also want to ban S&M, and that is where I believe we can't go any further. That is not your decision to make, and in a progressive society it never will be.

Lov3

I respect people's right to hold the views that this ought to be acceptable, even though they personally find it despicable, but I, like most other people, inclduing all western governments, draw the line at this point.

My point is, that freedom of speech only goes so far, it's not absolute, despite people's wishes or beliefs that it is, or ought to be.

Cruithne

"OK.

Thank you for the tenor of the replies so far, it's so f*cking refreshing to have an exchange of opinions, as opposed to an exchange of insults."

Indeed.

"We know that one of the best and most obvious arguments against child porn is that it is impossible to make these types of films without hurting vulernable children. A great argument for banning it, and even the freedom of speech argument is placed aside in this type of scenario.
I take it as a given that we're all in agreement with this."

Exactly. Since the video itself is proof of doing something harmful to a child (illegal), that's what should prosecuted.

"Not only is it wrong to make and distribute child porn, it's also illegal to make fictional computer generated images of a similar content, in which no children are directly harmed as a result of the images being created.
I'm also going to assume that we're all in agreement with this as well?"

Actually, no.

I find the idea of CG child porn completely and utterly despicable. Nevertheless, if it's a form of expression, I have no choice but to support its legality.

"Do you agree with your government's right to pass laws criminalising and prohibiting the generation of computer generated child pornography?"

Nope.

RedRedSuit

No. Nobody is hurt in this case.

LowerHouseMember

William "Killer" Shatner

I can't see how anyone can be entertained out of brutally murdering virtual people without being a little sick themselves.

Shigamado

Thank you for the tenor of the replies so far, it's so f*cking refreshing to have an exchange of opinions, as opposed to an exchange of insults.

let's look at it another way.

We know that one of the best and most obvious arguments against child porn is that it is impossible to make these types of films without hurting vulernable children. A great argument for banning it, and even the freedom of speech argument is placed aside in this type of scenario.
I take it as a given that we're all in agreement with this.

Here's where it gets interesting.

Not only is it wrong to make and distribute child porn, it's also illegal to make fictional computer generated images of a similar content, in which no children are directly harmed as a result of the images being created.
I'm also going to assume that we're all in agreement with this as well?

Right?

So...

Do you agree with your government's right to pass laws criminalising and prohibiting the generation of computer generated child pornography?

I see what has happened here as part of the same continuum, it seems what we're really disagreeing over is where the line ought to be drawn.
Myself, I happen to subscrbe to the notion that taking enjoyment from the sadistic torture of humans, for no other reason than the sadistic torture of humans, isn't something we ought to allow.

I say that in the full knowledge that I haven't played the game, and if the game is indeed more than this, I'll be happy to be corrected.

Cruithne

Hang on, that isn't what I asked, don't skirt around the issue please. How can you support stopping people from enjoying themselves however they see fit? You wouldn't have it done to you, why would you condone that it be done to other people?

Now, I see that you agree with the system the BBFC operates under. So do I, they do a pretty good job of making sure i'm the one who chooses what my kids are allowed to watch, within reason. But the genius of the system is that I am allowed to veto that decision and give my kid a copy of GTA 3. What's the point of allowing this democratic system the power to ban entertainment entirely? It hurts precisely no-one when a consenting adult plays manhunt... except arguably yourself, as the piss boring gameplay drives you to bludgeon your own brains out.

Now obviously you're lucky enough to agree with the BBFC on this occasion, but there may easily come a time when you don't. You need to protect your rights for that time.

Lov3

Both violent video games and hardcore pornography are 100% legal in America.

RedRedSuit

I have to say that, yes America definitely does not adhere to foundation on which it's built. Pretty much every politician is a Christian... which is fine, except for the fact that they have to bring their own, personal beliefs into the equation. I myself, am an American Christian, but unlike most people (for some reason), I realize that we live in a multi-cultural society... and that laws should only be passed to protect the entire society, not just me and my fellow Christians. If someone wants to play a violent video game, or watch hardcore pornography, I, as a Christian would be against it. However, it should defintely be legal. Not everyone is a Christian and not everyone adheres or should have to adhere to what I believe. As long as they're not hurting anyone else, it should pretty much be legal, in my book.

It just seems more and more laws are being presented and passed that are entirely based on Christian belief as opposed to the wellfare and safety of our multi-cultural society.

//I just can't stand why everyone has to be the judge of everyone else when it comes to God and salvation.. or the lack of it.

RemyDuvalle

Toasticus

LowerHouseMember

I really don't think it's splitting hairs to say that there is a big difference between the government telling retailers what to sell and retailers choosing what to sell themselves. It's really as simple as that.

Listen. This isn't some "America > world" argument. In many ways, America is less democratic than European nations. For example, our presidential election system is just stupid and only halfway democratic. The people placed in power don't really represent the will of the people as much as how rich their corporate sponsors are. We have other issues, too. Our politicians think they can police the world, and the U.S. is quickly starting to resemble a certain dominant empire from the past. Shit, this is the country that TWICE elected George W. Bush as the most powerful man in the world.

Nevertheless, freedom of speech is one area where America is the beacon. You can say whatever you want here. Mein Kempf can be published (not in Germany). AO-level games can be sold (not in Britain). Papers can print whatever they want, and cable isn't censored at all. People like Jack Thompson are powerless, and when the government tries to enact censorship, this is quickly shot down in the courts (not for lack of trying).

RedRedSuit

Personally, I hope Rockstar appeals successfully but if not, I'll be buying a copy of this game from another territory even if I have no system to play it on - simply on principle.

I despise censorship. It's not a kids game, kids should not be playing it, therefore treat us as adults

Overlord44

RemyDuvalle

So you have a piece of paper called the constituion which guarantees you freedom of speech, and you use this as a comfort blanket when someone prohibits you, or someone else, from excercising that freedom, telling me that the letter of the law has been obeyed, so everything's hunky dory.

Sorry, not buying it.

I'd much rather live in Europe and enjoy the freedoms there, than America.
That's not to say I don't admire the hell out of the ideals America is built upon, I'm just not convinced they're still adhered to.

Cruithne

Toasticus

"No more than the UK."

Yes, more than in the UK.

"Just because your censorship and effective banning takes a different form, doesn't mean it doesn't happen."

No, that's totally different. If you want, you can make an AO-level game and sell it yourself, and it's absolutely illegal to stop you. The fact that retailers and video game makers choose to censor themselves is totally irrelevant.

Every attempt to make the U.S. government censor video games, as proposed by Jack Thompson and a bunch of different state congresses, has been swiftly rebuffed by the judiciary as a patent violation of the First Amendment. The existence of a government agency like the BBFC, with the current Constitution, is simply impossible, and that's exactly the way it should be.

"And yes, the fiasco and hysteria over Janet Jackson's tit shows us exactly how enlightened and freedom loving Y'all are, as a society."

Nope. It shows no such thing. It shows that we (or at least the FCC) are tightassed and annoying... but it shows nothing else. The government owns the radio waves, so they try to control them. Anything that the government doesn't own (which is pretty much everything) cannot be censored by the government. Not books, not games, not films.

"I mean ferfuxsake, some kids make some maps of their local high school a game of Counterstrike, and they're hauled off to jail?"

Someone probably thought they might shoot up the school. It is completely and totally impossible that they were actually charged with anything for making a CS map. This has NOTHING to do with freedom of speech.

"Like I said, freedom of speech my hairy British arse."

Oh, you said it, alright.

RedRedSuit

I was looking forward to buying this before the banned it, why did they have to ban it before it came out >_<

SwishSpencor

Well, I don't make the decision I didn't make this decision. What I think is that the decision does have to be made, and a line does have to be drawn.
The least worst way of doing this is through electing government by democratic vote and allowing them to put in place a process for making these decisions.
Thankfully this process is open and accountable to the people, they have to justify what they have done and why.
If we don't agree, we vote ofr peoplewho promise to change it, if elected.

Not a perfect system, but I've yet to see a better one on offer.
And, like others here, we have seen the BBFC make really enlightened and mature hysteria free decisions over the last few years, reagrding adult entertainment. This gives them the right to be respected and taken as acting in good faith.

Cruithne

HarmanSmith

No more than the UK.

Just because your censorship and effective banning takes a different form, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
And yes, the fiasco and hysteria over Janet Jackson's tit shows us exactly how enlightened and freedom loving Y'all are, as a society.

I mean ferfuxsake, some kids make some maps of their local high school a game of Counterstrike, and they're hauled off to jail?

Like I said, freedom of speech my hairy British arse.

Cruithne

Bear in mind, I don't accept meaningless invocations of 'paedophiles are out there!' or 'won't someone please think of the children' as real answers to that question. How does the existence of video games, TV or films have anything to do with that?

Think it's a bad idea to censor footage of real life rapists and murderers? Complain to the BBC, where they film these atrocities in Iraq every day, and show them on our TVs at 10pm. Tell them you want to censor that because someone might be at home masturbating to it, or because you can't control what your own kids are doing, and see what they have to say to that. Having a camera to film any crime does not make it happen, it only documents it, which is only ever a good thing.

Now bring that all back to the topic at hand. Manhunt 2 will probably suck, just like the last one. My friend is a fan, however. He has a sick sense of humour (and a mild disposition, I might add), and this game fills his particular niche. What's your problem with how he chooses to spend his time?

Lov3

Oh, and the whole Janet Jackson nipple slip doesn't figure into this in any way. The government doles out radio wave frequencies (which is a perfectly reasonable setup), therefore they have a right to control what goes on those frequencies. They don't control our cable providers, or the Internet, therefore it's perfectly acceptable to have bare boobs on there. The "don't be self-righteous when you can't even handle a nip slip" argument holds no water, because that's a statement about silly American decency standards, not the legal implications thereof. We may be absurd tightasses here in the U.S.A., but at least we have freedom of speech that the government can't override.

RedRedSuit

Trencher

Trencher

the point you appear to miss is that banning is the only way to guarantee impressionable individuals, children or mental deficients, dont get hold of it. giving it an 18 isnt good enough and we all know it, including ratings boards. they have to put in the language like it applies to adults to justify the ban, but the real reason is to really remove access to it from minors.

also, im getting a bit tired of pontificating americans snowblowing all over threads around here. you have an added element of comedy, because youre actually sitting there, an american, in america, trying to tell europe that it is excessively conservative. take a look around buddy, while you get to buy manhunt 2.

theres a reason civilised meeting places say no religion, no politics. its because any other policy gives rise to chunderers like you that i for one feel the rest of us can do without.

aestheticity

CrimemasterGogo

No, there's nothing moral about censorship, but sometimes, it's best to appease the big public with things like this, while angering the little public like us. The censor-upholders are bigger than we are. As I've done with Rule of Rose, I'll resort to good ol' nacional torrent downloading.

Ashurahori

AstroMoth

And yes Lov3, I play video games, lots of violent video games, I enjoy them very much thank you.
Just as I partial to the occasional porn flick.

That doesn't mean all violent games are acceptable, nor all pornography either. We need censorship, end of story.
And no, I'm not a fan of the Daily Mail, but I do have respect for the BBFC, especially given their mature and progressive attitudes recently.

Cruithne

Astrodust

Yes, Manhunt 2 and its predecessor are violent, gory and wholly inappropriate for children. I'm not suggesting that we make these games readily available to children. In fact, I wouldn't be opposed to putting particularly offensive games in a special store or section of a store accessible only with a valid ID, like other materials that a lot of people find objectionable. And yes, some kids will get at them, just like you found your parents' porn collection when you were a kid. If you don't want the risk of your kids finding and playing these types of games, don't keep them in the house, and make sure their friends' parents don't keep them in the house. But, you can't protect children from every little thing every moment of every day, short of keeping them locked up inside the house.

I'm not suggesting that we legalize all kinds of offensive media. I'm not suggesting that depictions of child or animal pornography (computer-generated or otherwise) are appropriate for anyone. There are obvious victims in those types of media: children and animals don't have the capacity to understand what's going on or to truly say "no." There are all kinds of media (movies, music, video games, etc.) that depict events that are obviously direct violation of the laws already established. Those media should be distributed with a great deal of discretion, but not banned outright.

But I challenge you to find a real victim in the Manhunt games. Yes, murder is essentially the object of these games. Yes, the killings are over-the-top executions. It's not my cup of tea, either. But I don't have to play the game or watch anyone else play the game if I don't want to, and neither do you. Remember, it's not any of your business what the adults next door do behind closed doors, whether it's BDSM or playing violent video games, so long as it isn't impinging upon your rights or the rights of others. If you're offended purely by the fact that material that offends you is available, then you should probably turn the sensitivity knob down a couple of notches. Or move to China.

The point is as a legal adult in a free society you should be able to choose what media you wish to consume without governmental interference. Banning media, no matter how inappropriate, violates the right to free speech. The government is now deciding what is appropriate for you to view, that you're too ignorant to be able to decide for yourself. I feel that's a level of control that a government should never have over its people.

The regulatory body even points out that it's not just about protecting the children, which, by the way, isn't a valid argument anyway. Video games aren't just for kids, folks, and they haven't been for a while now. I despise the idea that ANY government would insult their adult (allowed to fight in wars, buy porn, and get pissed whenever they want so long as they don't drive home) constituents by implying they aren't intelligent enough to make a judgment call about what media to consume. If you're a citizen of any government that allows this (which, I guess is just about all of them), and you're not insulted by the fact that your government is treating you like a child, well, I guess there's no hope for you.

pure_drivel

Land of the free my hairy British arse!

When you people don't have to rush to subscriber cable to see the kind of TV shows we have on national free to view, available to everyone channels, then you can come back and talk to me about censorship.

I trust the BBFC, they have been very progressive and liberal in their work this past decade or so, when they decide to ban something, they've earned the right to be taken seriously, in my book.

That doesn't mean I necssarily agree with them, I'll have to know more about the game before I pass jusdgement, but my gut instinct is that they've called it correctly.

You don't believe in censorship?

What, no censorship whatsoever?

Then kindly join that line over there, the one with the people who would rape your children whilst filming it, and the ones who would teach others how to blow them up or attack them with a dirty bomb.

You can't have a stable society without censorhsip, and if you can't see that you aren't responsible enough to have a vote as far as I'm concerned.

I have the utmost respect for Rockstar, and what they have tried to do for the video games medium.
But...gratuitous graphic violent murder for titilation's sake, is probably taking it a step too far.

I'd be interested in seeing a reasoned response from Rockstar, in light of these developments.

Cruithne

A round of applause, please, for the stupidest comment on the thread! Honestly, you could write for the Daily Mail, I really mean that. Ever played video games? You must be a paedophile! Only immigrants could make that comment any more perfect.

How about re-assessing your ignorant opinions? You could start by watching Lolita or Leon for some examples of how child pornography is not the same thing as entertainment.

Off topic, but it needed saying.

Lov3

Astrodust

But the BBFC's system of rating games is vastly more comprehensive than the American or Pan European systems. ESRB relies on contextless videos of gameplay, although not legally binding as the BBFC ratings are, in reality, they are.

They're also bloody backwards when it comes to violence and sex, it's a case of, violence is fine, sex is adults only. For an example, see Fahrenheit, released uncut in Britain with a 15 certificate. It had to be cut just to get an M rating in the states. You know, because gang war mofos are cool and dandy, but consensual sex isn't.

I don't mind the PEGI system, but given that all those guys see are the answers to a questionnaire, I doubt their effectiveness.

hahnchen

You make a fair point, I think I was just pissed off with all the Americans and their "FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND GUNS! GO USA!" posts.
The point I meant to make is that there are undoubtedly things that should be censored and that governments always has kept things from them.

You're right that it is the parents who buy these games for their children that need to change, and it's a shocking display of the state of our country that our government can't trust it's citizens with the duty of protecting their children.

If major retailers (in the UK at least) are now legally obliged to make sure I realise that WoW or LOTRO is an online game with a monthly subscription fee when I pay for it at the till, why are they not required to say to parents "you do realise this is an 18 rated game with extreme violence/swearing/drug references/whatever."

18 rated games just aren't treated with the same "respect" as 18 rated movies, and this needs to change.

For the record, I'm not against violence in games, but I don't see why a game like Manhunt has to be so needlessly violent.

Northernsky

Cirrus

You don't belive in censorship?
then you're an idiot, and an enabler of child pornographers to boot.

If you knew the BBFC, then you'd know how progressive and open minded they are, especially in recent years.
If they felt strongly enough to ban this title then I think I'd better take a second look at this title and ask myself why.
I have the utmost respect for Rockstar and how they are trying to push the envelope on what is and isn't entertainment, but sometimes we have to say OK, that's a step too far.

Would anyone here play a game in which the some purpose was to violate children?
No, of course you wouldn't.

Well, isn't all human life of equal worth, and isn't depriving someone of their life the ulitmate violation?
What we have to keep in mind is that from the perspective of the BBFC, their are absolutely no redeeming merits in this game, people are not killed in the furtherance of any noble pursuit, rather sadistic titilation for titlation's sake.

I trust the BBFC.

And please, I don't want to get into pissing contest with Americans, but don't forget what happened in your country when someone bared a nipple during the break at the superbowl.
Progressive and enlightened you aint, stop pretending you are.

Cruithne

"Beware he that would withhold knowledge from thee, for in his heart he doth dream himself thy master." - Anon.

Lov3

"and I'm done defending the UK's moronic, right-wing practices."

I think you'll find the US has much stricter laws in some aspects to censorship. For instance US television has much tighter controls than Britain.

Don't critize one aspect of our censorship rules, when some of yours are no better.

I'll also think you'll find that the United Kingdom is far more left-wing than the United States.

DynamoMatt

Man I'm annoyed!

MAXLIFO

Infradead

dolo54

Foffity

Karttikeya

paydirt76

dolo54

"Let the bodies hit the floor. Let the bodies hit the floor." Let the devil take control.

I actually don't believe in the devil, but acting out such fantasies doesn't move people forward in a positive way in their lives. And no, Manhunt 2 isn't social commentary either.

paydirt76

Game involves gore - no - do not ban
|
Game involves gore and is unremittingly dull, such that only people with a fascination with killing could be arsed to play it - no - do not ban
|
Ban tedious gore game on the grounds that only people with mental health problems could be bothered to play it, and you probably don't want them getting confused about what is acceptable in the real world

Hope that helps

DrMekon

"A violent video game blamed for the death of a teenager is banned by British censors."
[news.bbc.co.uk]

The game is so bad, it's responsible for a death and it hasn't even come out yet! That's some powerful 3V17!

Baz

They are NEVER strict really, and only ban a game if there is something woefully nasty.

The BBFC are brilliant raters, and sometimes a little to lenient. If I remember, Resi 4 got a 15 here, despite being rated 18 everywhere else.

If anything, why blame the BBFC?. Blame Rockstar.

david78

Kind of true, though it is slightly apparent that your discontent with the game is what drives alot of that, but hey, nothing wrong with an opinion :)

But that 'fit for general public' thing....

Pornography movies aren't shown in national theaters, nor are the magazines at local stands. But strangely enough, I don't hear about them being banned. That's not saying a game such as Manhunt should get an A rating, but nonetheless.

A video game is an interactive movie- a movie, with a control panel (except already written out, in most cases). You play that football star you watch on TV. You play through bizarre worlds and stories and stuff. Manhunt 2 still had a plot. A storyline behind it, though nobody really cared about that. The game may or may not screw up little Timmy's mind, but my question to you is: Who buys it for them, with that giant rating on it? Who HANDS it to them in the store? The mass public as a whole shouldn't be affected because of parents that don't know what a child-proof medicine bottle is, or retail workers that want to dangle their contract/work thingy over a pit of fire.

THAT is the real problem. Whether or not people would have actually bought the game; whether or not it would completely suck or blow our minds... A group of politically powerful people act like they are responsible parents themselves to the public, yet they can't stop the problem from its source by talking with parents and saying "If, and only if you think your child is mature enough to play this or that game, then go for it, but talk to them about it, mmmkay?" My dad, God rest his soul, would tell me that these games weren't for kids my age (at the time. I'm old enough now), but he knew that I was mature enough to handle it. Parent's that do something like that, make a difference in a decision such as banning. Otherwise, all the negative energy from parents powers evil lawyers from Florida.

Mesren_Makai

Don't talk bollocks. Only some sad fuck with an adept skill with Flash would make a game like that. As far as I have seen, Manhunt 2 is no less gruesome and 'mature' as Condemned or Killer7, which were both released in Britain.

You see, in our glorious country we have an army of Jack Thompson's, in the form of the tabloid press. Newspapers such as The Daily Mail, The Daily Express and The Mirror shout and bawl at us that video games are evil and they should be banned. The original Manhunt was targetted because of the murder of a young teenager which 'closely resembled' that of the possible actions that can be undertaken in the game.

Of course, what the newspapers forgot to highlight was the drug use, the fact that a gang of youths were involved and that the killer was rather disturbed in the first place.

This is a sad day. Just how long will it be before any kind of 'influential' media bites the dust? Jesus Christ - I've had it with all of this. Import it is, then.

Garcian_Smith

I lot of people seem to be screaming "O my god I've so got to import this"… well I don't know about you guys but my rating for buying a game is not by how banned it is… call me old fashioned but I choose my games by how good their meant to be.

I did actually play the original manhunt after all the controversy (wrongly stirred up by some of the lower end of the media!).. and to be honest… I found it a little dull.

It just seems a little bit of a "they banned it so it must be good" mentality… well let me tell you something…

That ain't true.

A couple of years ago I saw the film "cannibal holocaust" which was (apparently) banned on first release.

Personally I thought the film sucked!

Now lets look at the BBFC.. I've read several articles on them and seen several interviews and I can tell you that they are not a strict bunch.. in fact as far as censorship goes… they're pretty relaxed.

So when they say they can't rate something.. you have to start asking about the content.

Speaking of which…

@disdain: to say the BBFC have approved hostel and this must be as bad or even worse as Manhunt 2….well seeing as the same people approved hostel and didn't approve manhunt 2…..I think manhunt 2 must be worse (crazy deductive reasoning at work there)

So this leaves us with the final point people have been bringing up "I'm an adult and I can choose what I want to play/do/watch"

Yes and no… as an adult I should be able to choose what I see… but amazingly if I decide to watch a snuff film I wouldn't get away in court with that argument.. ("well your worship.. you must remember I am over 18"..queue the sound of clanking irons)

The truth is that from the second manhunt 2 was announced everyone new it would be violent and it would go for controversy…. I mean the games story line isn't even related to the original game,(correct me if I;m wrong...and I know you will) which does give the impression that the reason to use the name was for controversy. which 9 times out of 10 means sales..…. .

I mean if the Virginia Tech Shooting game was passed to the BBFC , would that get passed.

My point is you can't make a game that's designed to be violent and controversial and then moan when it's banned because its… hmm … violent and controversial.

Spandy

sounds great.

MadChad

Foffity

But oddly enough...."Mom, can I buy a game where I rip off a guy's face, where it as my own, then chainsaw his body up and pin them to parts of the house in a twisted mindgame that will most likely give me nightmares, and screw up my personality, especially affecting what kind of person I will be growing up?"

"How much?"

(Okay, so that game doesn't exist right now, but hey)

Please tell me I'm hallucinating about that situation.

Great, JT is going to have a field day with this, since he can't live anything down. EVER. He's like a balloon on helium that floats over your head and screams "Skweeeeeeech" really loud until you get annoyed and leave the room.

That's right. I went there.

Mesren_Makai

Well that's just great.

Anto103

LowerHouseMember

Makes me happy once again that I imported my Wii; bohth Super Paper Mario and this news justify it. Although, at the same time, I'm not sure I even want to play Manhunt 2. I'll buy it, and start playing it, that much is pretty certain. But the original Manhunt, even I felt pretty off playing that. There's a certain level of sadism that I think just isn't necessary to be portrayed at all, whether it be in film, tv, games, or books even.

That doesn't necessarily mean it should be banned; take American Psycho (the book), it's sold in shrinkwrap behind the counter, at least here in Australia.

aelfin

this country is going to fucking shit as we speak!

bald_gye

The stuff they do cut or ban usually is nasty as hell so chances are this is no different. I remember people bitching like crazy about how good Ichi the Killer was and it was a disgrace that it was cut. A friend of mine had a copy of the Japanese DVD and I borrowed it to see what the fuss was about and it was the most disgustingly fucked up piece of sensationalist trash ever made. After seeing that it makes me kind of appreciate what the BBFC do keep out of our hands.

Kuraudo

Personally, I don't like the idea that the entire selling point of the game is violence for the sake of it. Their brief must have been "Make a game as violent as possible." - That's just not the kind of game I'm interested in.

As others have said, the BBFC doesn't ban things for no reason, they allow many films that other countries ban (take the film '9 songs' as an example) - whatever you want to say about censorship, any country needs someone to make recommendations about what is and isn't fit for the general public, and Rockstar must have crossed the line... That's their own fault.

Northernsky

TokeYo

ATimson

Sure, the government TELLS us that it is, but look at any international ranking on the topic. Go to Reporters Without Borders and check out how pitifully low we rate. Better yet, go to Norway or Sweden, or even the U.K., and read some of their newspapers, or watch the BBC. I think you'll be surprised at the difference.

Video games are not the most important thing in life, and although it's disappointing that the British government decided to ban a game, it's far more disappointing to me that the U.S. government restricts our other, more important freedoms, and that these restrictions are growing on a nearly daily basis. THAT is what sickens me.

Isaac VanDuyn

However, I can still remember how angry I got at Driller Killer - it wasn't cool or gory - it was just a bunch of crap.

Anyway, if you don't like how the BBFC have classified Manhunt 2, you can notify your MP or start an online petition and take it to parliament. If you don't like the law and if the rest of the country agrees with you - then you have the right to get it changed.

: D

mono

I grew up with the video nasty scare that resulted many films being removed from distribution entirely; copies traded in the playgrounds and in the backs of magazines for years after.

Now the BBFC have allowed most of these through with no cuts, some with small cuts for particular content; a lot of what is in these films is quite tame compared to films like Saw or Hostel.

martapp

Narsil

And as someone else said earlier, I'd be more outraged about "censorship" if they ever banned anything worth playing. Right now I've got enough indignation focused on Region Lockout and crappy PAL localisation.

Greedy

This is not completely outrageous, but I do think that the banning could've been avoided. Poor parenting is no reason to ban content - treat it like pornography if you must; limit its sale to adults.

velvet396

i know u aint asking me, but this crash is different, its a film about people who are turned on by car crashes, and is pretty much disturbing. I managed to see it at 13 and that movie scarred me for a while

meltyman

The trailers made for this game were horrific, I'm not surprised it's banned - you seem to be able to hang people in it.

The BBFC have changed a lot since the days of censoring Resident Evil. They even had a tremendous report recently about game violence, and how film violence is more damaging to people. This game must have no redeeming features whatsoever to get no certificate.

MitchUK

Zho

shufflemoomin

Should be banned? No

Let people make wrong choices and learn from their mistakes. The government shouldn't be telling anyone what or what not to purchase.

UncleTonii

Oh and SloopyDrew nice mix of nationalism and trolling. And technically it would only really be censorship if they prevented you from importing it. This is more like the gov just wants absolutely nothing to do with it.

Cdammers, that's pretty interesting, banning Crash? The Oscar winning one? You guys have it worse with movies, take that over crap like Carmageddon or Manhunt anyday.

Greedy

Kuraudo

explodingman

nya-chama

Baz

And outlandishly ignorant comments like that really do put your own country in such a positive light.

Every government has the ability to ban any form of media - wether you choose to acknowledge it or not.

I think it pretty clear from this thread that most of the people complaining are not from the UK - and to be honest - the only possible thing americans have to complain about is how the mob in the US will take this (Jack Thompson etc.) as they could very easily cause distribution problems in the US - legally. If they file a legal challenge stating that this game could bring about 'evils' and that challenge is given enough credence for a hearing then that game will be banned until the challenge is complete - where it could be banned indefinitely.

All governments have censorship, we as a public asked for it at some point or another. It's just done differently in different countries.

: D

mono

Covert-X

Nexus6

Risky+Safety

The BBFC almost never ban anything, so perhaps there's a good reason for it here. We are talking about a game after all that is selling itself primarily on the basis that you go around killing people in sadistic ways with little real purpose. Certainly there are many games with a lot of killing in them, but when sadism is the primary purpose of the game don't you think maybe Rockstar need to be told enough is enough?

Yes this is a deliberately provocative question, but how would you feel if the game was primarily about raping children? Would that be too far? I'm going to go ahead and presume we're not going to get many comments advocating child rape games, so why is that unacceptable and games about sadistic murder is acceptable?

slight

When was the last time anything was banned in the UK? This is, pretty huge actually. I thought we'd have been over this since the video nasties era has ended and look where we are again! This is rediculous... like hell I'm leaving this one alone, regardless of whether the game is actually good or not. To the BBC! or... whomever...

XanderSan

But having played the game from end to end, I can say that it was mediocre as a gameplay experience. After you've jammed a couple of glass shards into someone's eyesockets a few times, the shock wears off and you're left with a really boring game that also happens to be ridiculously bloody. There is nothing redeeming about the game; the excessive violence isn't used as a social commentary, nor does it bring any unique controls, graphics or mechanics. They were trying to up the ante on a past success, and generated a senseless gorefest. They could have saved a few million dollars in development and just mailed everyone a box of steaming entrails.

Is banning this game right? I don't know, honestly. But what about the right to good taste? I personally think that game should never have been granted a sequel, but I know that there are slasher flicks out there that sport even more violence that pull down multiple sequels. Nobody bans them, although I'm sure there are efforts out there to do just that. I know that when this game is released in North America, it will be lumped in with all of the games that start with the letter M, in plain sight to anyone. The genre has not grown to the point where you can go into a game store looking specifically for slasher games, as one could with slasher movies. This kind of division is good not only from a convenience standpoint, but it also makes it easier for parents to keep young eyes from temptations they just don't need at their age.

Video games still exist in a grey area with most folks that follow the "monkey-see-monkey-do" school of child-rearing. I'm 31, and I have been playing video games all my life. I know that there is little chance that this game has scarred me. I was stable enough in my own development to be repulsed by the game, and I can't see how it would inspire anyone to replicate the actions found in it. However, I remember being a kid, and I know I was a moron. No one at the tender age of eight should be playing this game.

I can see why the ban is in place, especially with the Wii version emulating the actions involved in killing. This is NOT the same as GTA. GTA still maintains a certain level of cartoon-like hyperbole that isn't present in Manhunt. I don't know if I agree that banning it was the best move, but I also don't agree that this game ever needed to happen. you could argue that if kids really want to get this game, they'll find a way, but I'm willing to bet that the number of copies in the hands of kids will be a lot less when they are presented with the great deal of effort needed to secure an illegal copy.

TitillatedOcelot

First off, I'm not British, I'm Portuguese. As far as I know, we have exactly no banned movies, games or books. Secondly, you talk as if America's parenting is perfect and the British one is god awful. Last time I checked, there were still children in the US playing 18+ video games so you can hardly make that claim.

Ethereus

sakipooh

Nexus6

If they allow crap like this through what can we expect next? "Super Ultra Pedo Rapers"? The line must be drawn!

Maybe once you guys get kids of your own you'll change your tune.

sakipooh

No PAL release at then... this sucks...

conzer16

Ugly Joe

Unfortunately, the rules on game censorship are a result of our democratic process. In the eighties, with the advent of VCRs, there was a huge public outcry over "video nasties", stirred by the tabloids and the killing of a young child supposedly (but not in reality) inspired by a horror film. As a result Thatcher's government imposed a much tougher regulatory regime on videos than on cinema releases. It's also the BBFC's statutory authority, whereas for cinemas it's ultimately at the discretion of local councils, though they usually follow the BBFC. Originally games weren't covered, but once FMV and high quality graphics arrived, such games automatically fell under the purview of the BBFC. You could try to remove censorship through the democratic process, but you wouldn't have a hope in hell of succeeding. We just don't have the first amendment tradition of free speech at all costs.

"When's the last time a film was banned? Doesn't matter how violent, when was the last time a fictional movie (meaning a movie where nobody really got hurt) got banned? "

As far as I know, the last film that was banned outright by the BBFC was Visions of Ecstasy in 1989, which was censored on grounds of blasphemy, a decision that was outrageously upheld by the ECJ. More recently some local councils, including Westminster (which includes London's West End) banned David Cronenberg's Crash.

cdammers

Kotaku should not perpeptuate the myth that it was ever successfully linked to the case.

Wilmore

Nexus6

justhesh

Dynamo,

I beg to differ. There is NOTHING moral about censorship.

And I'm done arguing this. Hopefully my fellow Americans with more sense than the apparently pro-censorship residents of the UK will jump in and take up my cause. This is ridiculous and I'm done defending the UK's moronic, right-wing practices.

If adults don't want their underage offspring playing the game, they need to parent. It may be a lost "art" in the UK, but it's an art, nonetheless. And if you aren't up to performing it, you should reconsider being a parent.

Sloopydrew

I hate this stuff so much. Why ban it? It's not as though rockstar actually killed people to make the game. I guess they are worried that crazy people will imitate it. I mean really if someone is crazy enough to imitate murder in a video game they will probably do it anyway.

It's a game, im over 18, I should be able to decide for myself if I think it breaches the reasonable bounds of taste. I mean seriously you can watch movies like cannibal holocaust or hostel. In fact there seems to be a whole new genre of movies plainly focused on just torture and gore, yet they haven't banned those. Movies like Hostel aren't horror movies, they just want to see how much gore they can get away with. How is that any different to manhunt 2? At least in Manhunt they are trying to tell a story and it just happens that violence is a key part of it.

Zim

Otherwise, fuck your "obscenity" laws.

Actually, fuck your obscenity laws, either ways."

OK, I propose a game.

The game is called "Paedophile Simulator 2007".

There is no point to this game in the usual sense, there is no score or levels, it is just a photo realistic, fully interactive simulation where you get to rape and murder boys and girls between the ages of 5 and 9.

This is OK to be released into the public, right?

I mean, I can release this game without any worries because I have some ridiculous god given right to say whatever the fuck I want in public?!?

Get a grip!

The idea that you should get some kind of infallible right to purchase or sell material of any kind is just so fucking stupid I don't know what to say.

I'm sorry for being graphic I didn't know how else to make my point...

AlexDenton

If someone murders because this game isn't released do you think it will be released as quickly as the first game was taken off the shelves?

These are all viable questions when it comes to censorship.

Steggy

I thought that I made it clear that if it's already ILLEGAL ...

Forget it. You Brits obviously love your censorship. Whatever.

Sloopydrew

People really do take things too seriously don't they?

Banning the sale of a game does in no way infringe any civil liberties. It is not the game that is illegal - it is the sale of it, and the sale of any item is subject to the law to preserve your rights. In the US if a game is rated