The Elite must be targeted at digital content appreciators who care little for gaming. And I simply cannot see how those people will choose any other but the PS3 as their console of choice, if indeed they choose the console route. MS is losing sight of the ball here. It's delivering great games but sending the wrong image out there, that of someone playing catch-up with Sony.

Personally, my HDMI inputs on my TV are reserved for the PS3, the VGA for the 360, the Scart for my yet to be purchased Wii.

Gonzo_playd

I can appreciate someone being annoyed about the HDMI output, since that can't be upgraded but this hard drive stuff astounds me. let's just pray to god MS doesn't offer a 200 gig hard drive for $220 in 2008 or those elite owners will have a hissy fit.

rluzinski

No, I was crying like a baby about another fanboy making ridiculous claims. I don't treat the console wars like a fucking beauty contest. I want them all to succeed.

rluzinski

pandaman1982

Well, this 360 owner is kinda disgusted with the Elite. Not enough to toss my console but in the end, MS is likely to get less of my money in downloadable content because I wasn't given an option that should've been there on day one.

I'm completely ignoring the HDMI upgrade, and focused on the hard drive. MS has been pushing the idea of digital content since they first formally annouced the 360. It was a natural extention of what they had started with Live on the Xbox. I find it hard to believe that in 2005, they weren't already working on the Video Marketplace, even if they weren't exactly sure when they'd have it up and running. And I'm sure they also realized the potential of Live Arcade - if they didn't, why format Live the way they did to make purchasing content only a button press or two away? They also made a point to mention MMO games like Final Fantasy XI, The Marvel MMORPG, A.P.B. and Huxley, all of which take up a large chunk on a drive.

It's not like they didn't know that 20GB might not be enough, and I don't blame them for cutting costs and only offering 20 GB for the $399 model. But I should've had the option to buy an Elite with a 120 GB HDD in 2005, and I had I been given the comparison between what the two hard drives had cost, sold seperately, I'd have gladly paid the extra for the Elite. $79 for an extra 100 MB is a great deal, compared to buying five more 20 GB drives at $99 a pop to get the equivalent storage capacity the same way buying a Premium instead of a Core and a memory card was.

I download a lot of content on my 360, I'll buy MMO games that require a lot of drive space, and I pay the $50 a year for the online service without complaining. I should've gotten the same shot being a day one early adopter that someone who decided to wait eighteen months did at a reasonably-sized and priced hard drive.

Basically, MS fucked me for being a big enough fan to go out and support them from day one with the 360, it's not like they couldn't see the need for larger hard drives on the 360 and could've allowed a third option besides 0 GB and 20 GB. My response is that I may skip out on some of the MMO games on the 360 now, and I may think twice about downloading video or game content if there's an issue with hard drive space. If I have to, I'll delete and re-download content, but I was willing to pay a few bucks extra to have enough space and avoid that.

Almost $200 for a hard drive upgrade is not a few bucks extra, and that doesn't even take into account the HDMI upgrade you get with the Elite(which I can't use now but might have a use for in the future). Hardware revisions are given but this goes beyond evolving / streamlining hardware as time goes on. It's a major option that should've been there from the start.

Won't be fooled again, when it comes to the launch of the next Xbox circa 2010-2011, count me out. I'll keep my money, wait an extra year and maybe I can be Elite, too.

Ninja20XX

At the end of this year, PS3 games will allready outshine most of the 360 games out there.

I mean come on MS fanboys, when is the 360 gonna be more then a Tivo?(pun intended)

Irenicus

SliceWarriorX

Irenicus

The reason I say this is becuase vertain games like Resistence are said to use no compression which is silly to me. I'm not seeing the mud effect ethier unless you are talking about nvidia compresion methods which sorta suck.

LOL So base off what you are saying then their is no hope for the thing and it's actualy more flawed that I thought WOW.

Plus too I though no one was really using the SP units right now? Oh well I just glad I don't have to deal with that...LOL good luck On that one? Come on SONY fan boys help me out here. It would be nice to see the cell shine in some thing other than folding@home and blueray!

Runna

If it has multiple discs it will look bad, thats why I think their "episodic content" is the solution, and downgrading it for both framerate issues and fitting it all on one dvd. HD content this large, it is impossible to have the same quality as the screens of and before gdc shows off and be larger then kotor at the same time.

Im sorry but the way MS talks about compression makes me think MS allready screwed up with games such as possibly mass effect but also mayor titles coming later this year and 2008! They should have gone with BluRay to or HD-dvd atleast, DVD aint gonna be enough, and more discs is bad this early into next gen, this gen anyway.

As for downgrading, they claim it aint so but latest build suggests that while they say they havn't got around to adding all effects etc. But I dont believe preview screens and movies as much as I use to. Especially if they look worse and their excuse is lame.

Irenicus

"We're not going to equip the PS3 with a HDD by default, because no matter how much capacity we put in it, it won't be enough."

Skeep

I dunno, I thought from the original released information that the memory was a bit more flexible than penhalion suggested i.e. the graphics chip can use textures from main memory without too much performance loss. I haven't programmed the thing though and obviously that would be harder to use even if possible.

quen

To my knowledge the blueray is uncompressed...LOL

So if they figure out compression for different type of file like geometry data, texture and ai data then they could be ok. That alot of compression but hey isn't that what the cell spes are good at?

Also too if the visuals are down graded the game will still be good right? Although this would be bad for PR which equals SONY religious followers...LOL

Runna

*Question* have you heard any thing about the PS3 arcade board? I can't find any thing on it and I hope this fixes some of the problems you and I both bring up. If there is any place to show case what your systam can ultimidly do it is here.

So your as contractor cool, not every one gets to be a cliffy B. Contracting is even better in some ways though.

I would have though SONY was working on a new compression tech so that the other cores could decode compressed data? then you could multiply your given amount of ram depending on how good the compression was.

An extra cell would be sweet expensive yet sweet and expanable ram with a better or faster bus. An SLI-ed RSX would be sweet also as you would not have a system that could run 1080 at 60 frame. Or they could let your run the whole thing at 720 and use the second card for physics. Or maybe they just put a G80 in it from the get go.

I for one was looking forward to all the big talk of a SONY OS and a possible computer powered by the cell. This in my opinion is what Sony needs in order to work out the problems of the cell with chip revisions and such.

I know this would splinter the game base but really the current PS3 owners wouldn't really care because really they have already spoken with their pockets. You bought the thing on potiential and PR speak deal with it if you don't like the games now then it's your own fault. There is alot of potiential for the cell yet it won't be seen in the current configuration do to flaws even even has started to address. Amd has even been struck with these flaws also as intel has currently fixed their own. The cell CPU is the first of hopefully many more versions. It's hard for me to expect more out of the current PS3 right now. The potiential always relies in the next version of the chip or even the platform.

With that being said I hope they make a kick ass arcade board. The fusion chips will be coming out some time around 09 and the clock is ticking.

Runna

Look at Mass Effect right, bigger then Kotor in HD... HOW can this be on a DVD you ask? It can't, so they decided to realse "episodic content", in other words, they can't fit it all on one DVD so they release what can fit inside and then rest on to your hardrive thru content download calling it episodic content, and then we are all suppose to believe this is great, prolly charge us for it to.

Same will come with other games, thus we need a 120gb hardrive, or we cant play full version HD games.

people may flame me for my revelation (that may be completly wrong most likely,) only time can tell who may be right, more discs or episodic content?

(This just came to me discussing this with some other people about space and new formats with the news of downgraded Mass Effect visuals.)

PS: It is only speculation, I dont know.

Irenicus

CrimemasterGogo

Give you a PS3? lol, sorry but if your parents aint gonna hand you one dont expect a complete stranger to give you one either...

Irenicus

That's funny, since I defended Sony earlier in the thread. It's OK to at least try to not be completely biased.

Give me a PS3 today and I'll play the crap out of it.

rluzinski

Irenicus

he said bankROLLING, dumbass. if you don't know what words mean, there are plenty of online dictionaries to help you out

SquirrelPhister

I work on and off for Sony as well as other devs. including several Microsoft studios. I contract in the industry so am usually under some NDA or other.

Dropping the price of PS3 will sell more consoles or do you not want that to happen? In fact you are the only person who disagrees with that strategy. What makes you look somewhat silly is that Sony have said they are now thinking of doing this in the immediate future.

Home is not equivalent to Live. I know as I've seen the actual demos that were held behind closed doors. It's a seperate thing that is loaded from the XMB. Some of the stuff in it is still NDA so I'll leave it there.

Banking games? What are you talking about?

If you didn't know (and it really sounds like you don't) Sony and Microsoft make their money on the games not the consoles. So selling more consoles makes the games offset console cost and eventual profit from both blue-ray and games happen that much sooner. The hardware is always loss making in the beginning. As far as I know only Nintendo has ever made an instant profit on hardware.

penhalion

Us early adopters will be forced if we want rumble to buy seperate controller with a bigger hardrive if needed, but we got 3rd party choices and a lot cheaper then the 360 120gb hardrive. Thats all I can think of, or after this Elite thing they wont release a new hardrive or console standard at all just siaxis with rumble. As for a new controller it aint a problem, MS did it with the first microsoft releasing the small one and no one can say that was a bad decision, it save that console, and kept me playing it till it died!

Irenicus

Having the 60GB model take the 20GB price point and discontinuing the 20GB model also makes sense especially since many retailers are refusing to stock the 20GB version. All of this happening around the time Home launches later this year makes sense to me.

Brandson

1.Drop price why?(your a developer no?)So why do you want a price cut if your happy developing for 360?
2.Why ignore Home that beats Live hands down and actually makes it better for developers and publishers not to say the least the gaming community within online gaming. Copy live now? why? I guess you want them to fail?
3.banking games, so that people get tired of the PS3 and leaves the system while MS rolls out a lot of mayor titles. Now that makes sense... How long should they bank the games? 2009 right?

Now im just gonna log out, log back in with another name and if so it happens a PS3 developer drops by in this topic and explains why 360 is crap for developers... dont blame me! lol (kiddin')

Irenicus

@penhalion

If you really were a developer, you would know the PS3 has 512MB memory, the same as the 360, 256 of GDDR3 for the GPU and 256MB of XDR for the Cell (for which the bandwidth is insanely fast), the GPU can access all 512 of this, if needed. In addition, each of the 7 SPE's also have 256KB of local storage.

As for the 80GB HDD, this is merely the side effect of the fact few HDD manufacturers are making 60GB drives these days, in all likelyhood, it's cheaper for Sony to use 80GB drives, and pass the extra 20GB onto end users, and save a few$$ in the process for themselves.

mgillespie

Ah a genuinely intelligent conversation :)

If I may I'll go a bit developer techy (please forgive this but, it's necessary to explain a bit of the behind the scenes)

In this generation and to a large extent last gen, all of the textures are compressed and un-compressed on the fly. This is why people notice the mud effect when they move last gen consoles to hi-def TVs. The problem is that this gens textures, sounds etc. etc are a lot larger than last gens. They need to be in order to look good in hi-def.

This leaves us developers planning out every last molecule of memory like over active chipmonks.

When I develope for the 360, I have a pool that can be changed in size as I need and allows me to fill up about 460-480mb of memory with my own balance of textures and data (AI, physics etc. etc.) stuff. The system takes the rest but, significantly, supplies me with online, guide bar, friends lists, achievements and voice chat functionality using the 30 - 40 megabytes that it permenantly keeps for itself.

When I develope for the PS3, I get 256mb and am told that the graphics card has the other 256mb. There is no give or take what-so-ever. So I need to be far tighter with my code and textures lest I return to singing "those muddy looking" blues. The PS3 doesn't supply me with any online services beyond the basics and in fact they have only now been added to the Sony dev kit SDK. The problem is that if I use them I loose what looks like about 20mb (that's if I use all of the available services). I can reduce this overhead by using only say a friends list or use online with voice chat but, no friends list etc. etc.

Having spoken to a sony dev rep. recently I guess my frustration with their replies about why they can't simply change the XMB to include these functions and have us call into them, is really starting to get to me now. It's like they don't give a damn about how hard they have made their hardware to work with.

As a developer I go where the money is so if PS3 does suddenly take off like a rocket I'll be two faced and start talking it up and trying to plug stuff I've worked on like any hypocrit. For now though I get to be honest. The amount of work needed to fit the same or equivalent game into a PS3 is dis-proportionate to the cash return any company can hope to get at present. Unless sony provide some gold coloured parachutes or air bags. Expect developers to jump ship with increasing regularity.

Sony need to do two things immediately.

1. Drop the bloomin' price by 100 pounds/dollars/euros
2. Ignoring home for a moment, Provide a simply online environment for games that mimics if not directly copies live.
3. Start bankrolling AAA games that can be tailored to show of the PS3 math power. This means HEAVY on the physics, HEAVY on procedural environments and crucially HEAVY on the game length i.e. something like blue dragon but on a blue-ray.

penhalion

http://news.yahoo.com/s/zd/20070328/tc_zd/204127

I also found it funny that the same guy was claiming that it was important to reach beyond the hardcore when Nintendo's been saying that for years.

panadero99

Irenicus

Well, you could argue that games are more complex now than they were on the original X-Box. But I was playing games on my PC that are comparible to Xbox games then with only 256MB of RAM on my wifes computer, and still ran Trillian (three way instant messenger,) and a host of other programs. It can be done.

PapaBear

Seeing as the original XBOX had only 64MB of RAM and had the online experience that has become the epitome of what online should be, I would think that Sony should be more than capable of creating their own (I guess with home) online service work just as well.

A-Rude-Hero

I mean that it's not the price that's a real issue here. It's the pay for the potential that is the problem.

@A-Rude-Hero:

I didn't say it's crippled by it's GPU you must be thinking of someone else. I said it's crippled by the 256mb memory that Sony chose to lumber it with. Extra online services in games will take memory, as will friends lists, voice chat, in game messaging etc. etc. All of this has to come from somewhere and that means less and less memory for the actual games.

I program these things remember. From a developer perspective (which I guess is where the ramble came from) I don't see how we fit that stuff into a game and still keep it identical or better than it's 360 equivalent. As time goes on I think you'll start to see what I mean in the actual games themselves. The proof as they say will be in the differences and not similarities between a 360 version of a game and a PS3 version.

penhalion

You could have argued his point without being such a dick about it, you know. The sarcasm and insults were unnecessary.

PapaBear

noneother

That's a great point. I can't imagine anymore core or premium 360s being sold after this silly elite stuff. Furthermore, I'm sure the 10 million current 360 owners are going to be so disgusted that they'll throw away their console in disgust. All because of the elite.

That or you are a moronic fanboy that makes a fool of yourself every time you open your mouth. Please tell me you are just a 14 year old that doesn't know better.

rluzinski

As to the 80GB, it'd have to be for a special edition or just for a replacement for the 60GB. There's no way to market a 60GB and an 80GB side-by-side, there's not enough product differentiation. Especially since it's tough to even use all the 20GB right now, let alone 60.

br549

Yeah, until they put in a new graphics card that I can't get anywhere else but Sony, I'm not worried.

The only reason I think people are upset with MS is because they aren't charging a fair amount for their hard drive, which is proprietary and you can only get it from them. If you could easily install a 260GB drive into the 360, don't think people would care nearly as much.

PapaBear

I was so annoyed when the OSD menu would just randomly popup when I was watching movies. So I feel your pain on this manufacturing issue.

I must warn you that the PS3 controller is not as friendly as I feel it should be when you go to disassemble it. The screws are easy enough, but there is a snap catch where the two halves of the controller come together just below the analog LED. I found this to be a pain to release, and I was even following Sony's instructions...

Also, be careful to make sure that the small piece of plastic that serves as the reset button is in the proper place before you put it back together. Thanks to USER ERROR I ended up putting that on backwards at first :P

Though I guess it is not as bad as when the potentiometer fell off inside my official Sega Dreamcast steering wheel. Now that thing was annoying to take apart!

Done with the hypocrasy here.

And none of these upgrades are needed to play 100% of the games, so what are you talking about?

rluzinski

Yeah, Sony has announced the ps3 elite in CES07.
It's IPTV, TiVo functionality, 1TB of storage(if I remember correctly), and it's supposed to cost U$2000

mustang

omegasc

I had that issue with the Triangle button as well on one of my controllers, but I learned that it had nothing to do with the Bluetooth!

I just disassembled the controller and took a look at the contacts for the TRIANGLE button. I noted what appeared to be a small fiber lying on top of the contact points, so I gave it a good cleaning. I reassembled everything and have never had any problem since : )

So you might want to try that!

Done with the hypocrasy here.

thanks for that long rambling waste of my time response.

joelface

ArchAngel080

A-Rude-Hero

cloy

Fletch02

I then thought about a game I got just recently. The humble virtua tennis. I have the 360 version and it runs smooth at 1080p. My friend and I went to virgin and played the PS3 version. It was essentially the same game with a bit of a washed out looking (due to over-lighting, which seems to be a feature of the nvidia graphics chip) but, was otherwise identical. That was until we played a game on my 360 at home. We tried the online feature and joined a doubles tournament. I had so much fun that I genuinely can't think why the online is missing from the PS3 version. It's like that version is missing a whole second game!

I guess this kind of made me realise that the reason I'm not buying a PS3 isn't sony but, rather the fact that PS3 doesn't have live or anything close to it at present. The price was just a bonus in that it woke a lot of people up to the fact that paying for potential is silly, when the aim of that potential i.e. an online media hub, is and has already been here over a year.

I think I may get the PS3 as a blue-ray player but, it's not that good of a games console no matter what people want to believe. Unless sony bring out a 768mb version I don't think it even has the potential to be. 256mb isn't enough memory not even close!

penhalion

That said though, I've yet to experience any problems with my controllers. Not during movies, games, or even just idle, so not a big deal really in my mind.

A-Rude-Hero

bparker06

I doubt there will be a price raise, no matter how dumb MS is, Sony aint gonna be just as dumb, I think infact Sony sees their chance to take em out swift over this misstake by MS.

Irenicus

tretor

omegasc

It's normal the PS3 use the PC market for cost reduction. It's good for everyone.

nicomcm

The Bluetooth antenna is because some people have reported it giving out randomly, so your character in Resistance would randomly shoot, or start running into the walls. It usually only last a second or two, but it's pretty annoying when you die because of it.

I've noticed it only happens when people live near high interferance areas, like high voltage power lines or near airports (like myself.)

Even still, it only happens maybe once a month, so it's not really an issue to me. If it happened more frequently, I suppose I can see people being angry with it.

PapaBear

Blackmagik55

Sadly, with the way Sony PR has been this launch cycle, that isn't nearly as asinine as you may have been trying to make it.

I wouldn't have been surprised to see that exact release out on display these days.

PapaBear

With the "Elite" and now this theoretical cause for a PS3 price drop.. I want a PS3 more and more.

internetnerd

What I would expect is:

Here at Sony we say how big hard disks should be, the Disk shipping in the Xbox 360 Elite is no threat to us as it doesn't even hold 120GB of data.

Last year Sony predicted the future and actually began shipping our 80GB model but it's just so popular that you can't find one on store shelves.

Blah blah foot in mouth blah

Head of Sony marketing.

ultim8fury

BlindsidesDork

@doubtful: Yes. Black is so last gen.

Kuraudo

Like I said, doubtful (price dropping?!! Sony?!!!), but something that crossed my mind.

bryantstanton

BlindsidesDork

doubtful

DBX00

Scazza

As easy as it is to replace the PS3s HDD there are still those that would rather not mess with it and just grab the largest available on the market.

A-Rude-Hero

I'm probably just going to stick with my old stuff for a while. This is just ridiculous.

0x15e

But I suppose including them on the system would have made it cost $15 extra, so what the hell.

I'm going to up my hard drive to 260GB before the Home update hits. With all the stuff they are adding there, it will probably eat up a decent chunk of my 60GB HDD.

PapaBear

Any techs in the house? None at all....didn't think so

penhalion

Braham

Jabbertrack

TalKeaton