A lot of voice actors have been talking about how this contract was nothing but lawyer drivel that really would have screwed VAs out of money at the end of the day.
Guys like Dee Bradley Baker who spend all day recording noises for the Grunts in Halo and other crazy sounds would stop getting paid as much because those are "atmospheric" voices.
The writers of the contract don't realize that games are all about "atmospheric" voices and that just because the character doesn't have a name or doesn't speak 300 words of written dialog does not mean that the character is not important or isn't a vocally stressful job.
The contract also never specified what a "written line" was. Do grunts and reactions count? Because depending on the title, those could outnumber actual words, and they are also much more stressful on the voice.
As a voice actor myself, I'm glad this got shot down, even though I'm looking into joining a pseudo-union or AFTRA in the future, not SAG. #industrynews
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GameBuddy - Doesn't like tomatoes on his sandvich. was starred
GameBuddy - Doesn't like tomatoes on his sandvich. was unstarred
@MindPrints: The SAG dues are often too much for new talent to afford and thus it is nearly impossible for them to produce.
Also, I'm all for an alliance of craftspeople but SAG is mainly an over-rated, industry-incestuous club comprised of self-absorbed morons and people that don't want to be in it but have to in order to get a job in the industry. #industrynews
It would be interesting to see how many of our game VAs are members of the AFTRA and/or the SAC. It could show if they're monopolising to protect only their select few members or honestly providing union assistance to the VAs...
This is a very beneficial step. I went to a casting last weekend and was told to have a 2 min monologue, they stopped me halfway through (always a bad sign) but then made me read it in several interpretive ways, some of which involved screaming and shouting my head off. I wasn't prepared for that and forewarning would have been nice. (and yes, I did get offered the part)
If unions weren't under constant threat of corporate intimidation you could probably see unions for more employees in the games industry. The goal of the EFCA is to make it easier to do card check since right now the company gets to decide if it's valid or not instead of employees. The reason why card check is needed as a viable alternative (read, not replacement) to secret ballot, is because during secret ballots there is still a long period where the company can launch a counter-offensive and lie to employees about what unions are for.
If you hate unions you must have never read anything about them in your American history class because they're very important for employees to be able to achieve better working conditions and higher safety in the work environment.
Soldier_CLE says DON'T STOP AT THE STAR! REVOKE THE WHOLE DAMN THING, OWEN!!! was starred
Soldier_CLE says DON'T STOP AT THE STAR! REVOKE THE WHOLE DAMN THING, OWEN!!! was unstarred
@RockyRan: That's not usually the actor's fault, it's voice director's fault.
Of course, paying higher rates for voice acting could also, theoretically, attract better talent. Japanese VAs get paid more and treated better than American VAs as it is...
@Rebochan: I wouldn't be as strongly against the "agreement" if it didn't benefit the "hammed" voiceactors along with the decent/good/excellent voicetalents.
At the same time, I would'nt be as deadset against this agreement if I didn't think this would cut out newcomers who are cutting their teeth in the 'biz.
Soldier_CLE says DON'T STOP AT THE STAR! REVOKE THE WHOLE DAMN THING, OWEN!!! was starred
Soldier_CLE says DON'T STOP AT THE STAR! REVOKE THE WHOLE DAMN THING, OWEN!!! was unstarred
@Rebochan: That makes sense. I've heard some voice actors say that the voice director didn't give them any direction in what they wanted for the voice.
Maybe I'm being too harsh on the actors themselves. For all I know it could be the directors who blow chunks.
@RockyRan: It usually is. And its not always the VD's fault. Studio time is costly and not having a big enough budget gets you crappy voice acting. VAs can be great in one role and terrible in another not due to talent but due to bad direction and production combined with rushed work.
@Soldier_CLE: Newcomers are cut out because its too expensive to take a risk on some unknown getting through a role in the 10 hours of studio time scheduled. It has much more to do with tight schedules than pay rates fo VAs.
@RockyRan: I believe that both the voicetalent and the gaffer equally are vicarious in the responsibilities within making the voice project work, as the gaffer should know exactly what this project is supposed to sound like, while the voicetalent is supposed to have the chops and scale to make his or her abilities work for the character on screen.
Soldier_CLE says DON'T STOP AT THE STAR! REVOKE THE WHOLE DAMN THING, OWEN!!! was starred
Soldier_CLE says DON'T STOP AT THE STAR! REVOKE THE WHOLE DAMN THING, OWEN!!! was unstarred
@Soldier_CLE: Most of the time, from what I've read, the actors aren't even saying they're lines with other actors to bounce off of. They're just saying the lines from a cue sheet into the microphone, and it all gets edited together after the fact.
I've also read that they'll be handed the script the same day that they're supposed to be reading. If this is the process for video games, they aren't acting, they're just saying their lines.
@RockyRan: Budget could be the deciding factor for quality voice acting. Publishers may decide that choosing a cheap and quick script redo would be better in their view than a full localisation with fixed lip-syncing.
On the bright side, there is plenty of evidence of excellent voice acting if you look at games that need the least amount of localisation. Persona 3 & 4 needed pretty much no lip-syncing whatsoever and it was prue quality throughout with no stupid dubbing-style pauses. Also Valkyria Chronicles' dub was better than the original Japanese recording in my opinion and that required very little lip-sync fixing as well.
Hopefully now that Japanese publishers are now looking to attract Western gamers, perhaps they'll follow Atlus/Square Enix and put more money into localisation and give the voice actors a far better chance to give a performance of pure awesomeness...
@Kawlinz: It depends on the style that the production manager and gaffer chooses.
If it is the Walt Disney style of voicetalenting, the actors voice first, and then the animators illustrate according to those voice match-ups.
In the traditional way of voicetalenting, the script is given and the gaffer and voicetalent best worked the best way to emphasize, articulate and tone the character or narration.
There are other meshes that work in derivative, and often it depends on the production company and the director.
Edited by Soldier_CLE says DON'T STOP AT THE STAR! REVOKE THE WHOLE DAMN THING, OWEN!!! at 10/03/09 7:30 PM
Soldier_CLE says DON'T STOP AT THE STAR! REVOKE THE WHOLE DAMN THING, OWEN!!! was starred
Soldier_CLE says DON'T STOP AT THE STAR! REVOKE THE WHOLE DAMN THING, OWEN!!! was unstarred
Sometimes, a "newcomer" might be a person who has worked in a different market (or language) that does not (yet) have an AFTRA/SAG card.
There are instances where a person might have experience in other ways that do not translate to them having a card either, as I know of a former Armed Forces Radio and Television Service person that just started voicework in the civilian sector that does not have a SAG/AFTRA card, yet has over twenty years experience doing voicework.
Just saying. There are cracks in the system that are rarely discussed that benefit the AFTRA & SAG organizations, but not the "newcomer" that has experience.
Soldier_CLE says DON'T STOP AT THE STAR! REVOKE THE WHOLE DAMN THING, OWEN!!! was starred
Soldier_CLE says DON'T STOP AT THE STAR! REVOKE THE WHOLE DAMN THING, OWEN!!! was unstarred
Take out the government force behind these things and there would be no problem. Making discrimination against union members illegal is both immoral and conducive to stagnancy.
@SigmundTheSeaMonster: there are a lot of actors who struggle for work. most of them do, actually- and they often have more than one job- especially in videogames. do you think it's a coincidence that the same actors seem to appear in every videogame? it's a tough business to break into and a lot of developers still use various staff around the office for voicework instead of hiring actors. these unions actually help insure that those who do get work (and only get paid scale) get paid appropriately for their work. this is a good thing. It's becoming harder and harder to find any good use of unions in the modern economy- so it's nice to hear when they actually do something good for their members (who have to pay the fees for union benefits) like this story.
@laser beams: What you are forgetting to mention is the fact that a person who is trying to cut their teeth in the voicetalent market will have to ultimately be a card carrying member of SAG &/or AFTRA to get the gig, as it is now a prerequisite for being in any major motion picture and/or radio or television production on the national level.
In the past, the interactive medium were a great way for voicetalents to build up their resume so that they would be a viable SAG and/or AFTRA candidate.
Now, this "agreement" makes it harder for those newcomers.
Soldier_CLE says DON'T STOP AT THE STAR! REVOKE THE WHOLE DAMN THING, OWEN!!! was starred
Soldier_CLE says DON'T STOP AT THE STAR! REVOKE THE WHOLE DAMN THING, OWEN!!! was unstarred
@Soldier_CLE: this agreement doesn't screw over the newer actors. the unions do. i'm not saying that these unions are taking care of all their members- but these new rules ensure that the actors who DO get voiceacting work are more fairly treated and better compensated. your argument is valid- but i don't think it appropriately addresses this particular situation. this agreement is a good thing for videogame voiceactors.
Soldier_CLE says DON'T STOP AT THE STAR! REVOKE THE WHOLE DAMN THING, OWEN!!! was starred
Soldier_CLE says DON'T STOP AT THE STAR! REVOKE THE WHOLE DAMN THING, OWEN!!! was unstarred
@Soldier_CLE: we are in agreement that these unions are screwing over the majority of their members. there are other factors that screw them over, too. at the end of the day- it seems that the average unknown actor has to pay a lot of dues to a lot of organizations and agents for little in return. getting into this line of work often seems like such a crap-shoot that i can't imagine anyone wanting to become involved unless they are either truly dedicated to the art form- or they are masochists.
but when things like this are accomplished- it instills a tiny bit of faith in my mind toward unions- this is what they should be accomplishing all the time. then it wouldn't feel like such a waste of time and resources.
Normally, I am a person that sides with unions. However, in this case, I am in TOTAL DISAGREEMENT.
These days, I rarely see anything decent about AFTRA and SAG, especially since the way their current layout does little to nothing to benefit newer actors (who have to figure out how to keep up with dues), and the production groups that are now having to figure out the new headaches involved with two of the most money-grubbing unions in the nation!
Most unions try to even the playing field (at least on paper). AFTRA and SAG for the last few decades do little to convince me that this is what it is about, especially since voicework is decently available already at fair wage.
For the sake of keeping the costs low, I can only hope that the ESA works around AFTRA and SAG's proposed voice monopoly and goes the route of hiring newer raw talent that are not yet SAG and AFTRA members.
Having said this, I now know what will kill Snake. It wasn't Foxdie. It were AFTRA & SAG's attempted manipulation in the interactive markets.
Edited by Soldier_CLE says DON'T STOP AT THE STAR! REVOKE THE WHOLE DAMN THING, OWEN!!! at 10/03/09 3:27 PM
Soldier_CLE says DON'T STOP AT THE STAR! REVOKE THE WHOLE DAMN THING, OWEN!!! was starred
Soldier_CLE says DON'T STOP AT THE STAR! REVOKE THE WHOLE DAMN THING, OWEN!!! was unstarred
I'll admit, I have no idea what that article is about and it's implications to voice acting in gaming, can someone explains to me please.
From what I'm understanding it means that VA's get paid more now? but I feel there's some bigger stuff here.
@deanbmmv: I'm not really sure, having not read the actual new rules, but yeah part of it is the pay raise. There was, formerly, a three-character rule, where a cast member would get paid an additional salary for more than three characters, so this 'atmospheric' thing may play into that.
Vocally stressful roles do exist, and the conditions on the actors there can get pretty brutal, so there probably should be some warning and pay increase. There's a huge difference between someone voicing a conversation, and someone struggling through Dragonball Z or something.
That said - other than conditions, I don't see why they get paid per character instead of per hour. Who cares if you're playing one guy who talks for three hours, or a thousand clones who talk for three hours? If you're in the studio talking for three hours, what's the real difference in effort? You go in, you read lines, you leave. The per-voice pay rate seems like an entirely arbitrary standard.
@Lodril: It's not like people voice act instantly. They need to practice each voice for hours on their own. If they got paid the same amount for dialogue in one voice than in several voices, that would be completely unfair. Remember, paying actors also has to do with effort out of AND in the studio.
@Lodril: You go in you read lines you leave! that is so insulting. Have you not heard bad voice acting? have you not been immersed by good voice acting. Just because you don't do it doesn't make it easy. For each character an actor has to develop a feel for them, create a unique identity or voice (or else you get the oblivion effect)
Models don't just stand there
VAs don't just read lines
Actors don't just walk and talk
These are complex, difficult things that require practice work and dedication. You're belittling views are naive and hurtful
@rorkimaru: I think you're assuming that the hourly rate would be low. The actors deserve to get paid for what they contribute, rather than what they play. A character that has one line shouldn't be equal to one that has a dozen. Despite the truism, there are small roles.
Then again, the union system as a whole works towards that 'oblivion effect' rather than against it. The market should set the prices, rather than the unions - that would mean the performance and the work behind it would be rewarded, not just the arbitrary numerology of characters.
You're talking about excellence in performance, but using it in support of a system that favors spreading wealth over rewarding excellence.
10/28/09
Guys like Dee Bradley Baker who spend all day recording noises for the Grunts in Halo and other crazy sounds would stop getting paid as much because those are "atmospheric" voices.
The writers of the contract don't realize that games are all about "atmospheric" voices and that just because the character doesn't have a name or doesn't speak 300 words of written dialog does not mean that the character is not important or isn't a vocally stressful job.
The contract also never specified what a "written line" was. Do grunts and reactions count? Because depending on the title, those could outnumber actual words, and they are also much more stressful on the voice.
As a voice actor myself, I'm glad this got shot down, even though I'm looking into joining a pseudo-union or AFTRA in the future, not SAG. #industrynews
10/28/09
10/28/09
That is one parasitic organization that needs to go. #industrynews
10/28/09
10/28/09
10/28/09
Also, I'm all for an alliance of craftspeople but SAG is mainly an over-rated, industry-incestuous club comprised of self-absorbed morons and people that don't want to be in it but have to in order to get a job in the industry. #industrynews
10/28/09
10/03/09
10/03/09
10/03/09
If you hate unions you must have never read anything about them in your American history class because they're very important for employees to be able to achieve better working conditions and higher safety in the work environment.
10/03/09
"Oblivion Casting."
10/03/09
10/03/09
I see all thse commenters going HEY, I'M NOT A VOICE ACTOR NOR HAVE I EVER BEEN, but man this is TERRIBLe because I'm STUPID and I HATE THINGS ETC
and it seems like not one person knows what they're talking about.
I dont know
10/03/09
The concerns on both sides show validity.
10/03/09
Most games I play have amateurish voice acting all up and down the audio tracks. Hell, I probably could do better and I'm no actor.
10/03/09
Of course, paying higher rates for voice acting could also, theoretically, attract better talent. Japanese VAs get paid more and treated better than American VAs as it is...
10/03/09
At the same time, I would'nt be as deadset against this agreement if I didn't think this would cut out newcomers who are cutting their teeth in the 'biz.
10/03/09
Maybe I'm being too harsh on the actors themselves. For all I know it could be the directors who blow chunks.
10/03/09
10/03/09
10/03/09
10/03/09
I've also read that they'll be handed the script the same day that they're supposed to be reading. If this is the process for video games, they aren't acting, they're just saying their lines.
10/03/09
On the bright side, there is plenty of evidence of excellent voice acting if you look at games that need the least amount of localisation. Persona 3 & 4 needed pretty much no lip-syncing whatsoever and it was prue quality throughout with no stupid dubbing-style pauses. Also Valkyria Chronicles' dub was better than the original Japanese recording in my opinion and that required very little lip-sync fixing as well.
Hopefully now that Japanese publishers are now looking to attract Western gamers, perhaps they'll follow Atlus/Square Enix and put more money into localisation and give the voice actors a far better chance to give a performance of pure awesomeness...
Fingers crossed.
10/03/09
If it is the Walt Disney style of voicetalenting, the actors voice first, and then the animators illustrate according to those voice match-ups.
In the traditional way of voicetalenting, the script is given and the gaffer and voicetalent best worked the best way to emphasize, articulate and tone the character or narration.
There are other meshes that work in derivative, and often it depends on the production company and the director.
10/03/09
Sometimes, a "newcomer" might be a person who has worked in a different market (or language) that does not (yet) have an AFTRA/SAG card.
There are instances where a person might have experience in other ways that do not translate to them having a card either, as I know of a former Armed Forces Radio and Television Service person that just started voicework in the civilian sector that does not have a SAG/AFTRA card, yet has over twenty years experience doing voicework.
Just saying. There are cracks in the system that are rarely discussed that benefit the AFTRA & SAG organizations, but not the "newcomer" that has experience.
10/03/09
10/03/09
10/03/09
10/03/09
10/03/09
In the past, the interactive medium were a great way for voicetalents to build up their resume so that they would be a viable SAG and/or AFTRA candidate.
Now, this "agreement" makes it harder for those newcomers.
10/03/09
10/03/09
10/03/09
but when things like this are accomplished- it instills a tiny bit of faith in my mind toward unions- this is what they should be accomplishing all the time. then it wouldn't feel like such a waste of time and resources.
10/03/09
These days, I rarely see anything decent about AFTRA and SAG, especially since the way their current layout does little to nothing to benefit newer actors (who have to figure out how to keep up with dues), and the production groups that are now having to figure out the new headaches involved with two of the most money-grubbing unions in the nation!
Most unions try to even the playing field (at least on paper). AFTRA and SAG for the last few decades do little to convince me that this is what it is about, especially since voicework is decently available already at fair wage.
For the sake of keeping the costs low, I can only hope that the ESA works around AFTRA and SAG's proposed voice monopoly and goes the route of hiring newer raw talent that are not yet SAG and AFTRA members.
Having said this, I now know what will kill Snake. It wasn't Foxdie. It were AFTRA & SAG's attempted manipulation in the interactive markets.
SCREW AFTRA AND SAG!!!
10/03/09
From what I'm understanding it means that VA's get paid more now? but I feel there's some bigger stuff here.
10/03/09
Vocally stressful roles do exist, and the conditions on the actors there can get pretty brutal, so there probably should be some warning and pay increase. There's a huge difference between someone voicing a conversation, and someone struggling through Dragonball Z or something.
That said - other than conditions, I don't see why they get paid per character instead of per hour. Who cares if you're playing one guy who talks for three hours, or a thousand clones who talk for three hours? If you're in the studio talking for three hours, what's the real difference in effort? You go in, you read lines, you leave. The per-voice pay rate seems like an entirely arbitrary standard.
10/03/09
10/03/09
Models don't just stand there
VAs don't just read lines
Actors don't just walk and talk
These are complex, difficult things that require practice work and dedication. You're belittling views are naive and hurtful
10/03/09
Then again, the union system as a whole works towards that 'oblivion effect' rather than against it. The market should set the prices, rather than the unions - that would mean the performance and the work behind it would be rewarded, not just the arbitrary numerology of characters.
You're talking about excellence in performance, but using it in support of a system that favors spreading wealth over rewarding excellence.