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Denver, 8:20 AM
Wed Nov 25
53 posts in the last 24 hours
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10/19/09
The answer is context and motivation. Honestly think about why you get enjoyment out of blowing things up or killing civilians in GTA. I can speak for no one else, but upon examination of myself, I find that I gain enjoyment largely from approaching the game in either of two major conceptual frameworks, or both: 1. The absurdity of the situation (speeding down the sidewalk and mowing down civilians with an eighteen-wheeler), or 2. The adroitness of skill I possess and display when I fight my way out of varying situations, gleaning headshots, and expertly executing a getaway drive and skillfully diving out of a car to escape death at just right the moment. There is also something to be said for the simple power of blowing something up with an RPG or a grenade, which gives that vague feeling of having the power to fend off any existential threat or fight for any cause, but this feeling is less developed, so I'll leave it there for now.
I will say, on the positive side to which I've already made reference, that GTA IV's gameplay was good, but not great aside from the environmental aspect (big city, lots of people, et cetera). For instance, the actual gunplay, though much improved from previous GTAs, would hardly be enough to carry any game to success were it not couched in an amazing playground ripped from the image of reality. #toshihironagoshi
10/19/09
In Sim City you play a dictator razing whole urban districts to plant another airport or stadium. In almost every tycoon game you're the capitalist moneybag trying to milk the cash-cow as much as possible. Say, did you play Command & Conquer on the alliance side only, never even commading the soviets?
Every GTA title of the late had a specific theme. While GTA3 featured a more general setting, GTA:SA put the player into the role of some ghetto/gang/rapper/gangasta role. GTA4 now has a more eurasian mind-set, while GTA:Chinatown Wars focused on the asian immigrants.
Don't we enjoy games because we can slip into many different roles? Since when do games have to follow a strict political set of rules or view? #toshihironagoshi
10/19/09
That means that it's not real. It's not pushing a political agenda, it's pushing a joke. Get over it. #toshihironagoshi
10/19/09
I hate it when idiots are promoted as star commenters. #toshihironagoshi
10/19/09
@the wiseass: See response to bornonce
@Revenge_of_Nekojin: See response to nukee.
@Harpo: Depends, do you support it? Taking advantage of it is a separate matter; you could very well utilize the government's health care program and be perfectly fine morally.
@nukee: GTA IV has a political message. It is leftist, and it is obvious if you pay attention. The main story aside, I would invite you to listen to the radio stations. WKTT mocks conservative radio talk show hosts. Fantastic. PLR largely avoids direct condescension of American Liberalism, and what it does target are only those aspects treasonous to the cause. Not fantastic. Then of course there are the helicopter tour pilot, Niko's sporadic, anti-capitalist witticisms and so on. There is a wealth of anti-(Classical)Liberalism on which to draw, so replay the game and have fun, comrade.
@bornonce: Occasionally, occasionally, I hesitate to use the terms "right-wing" and "left-wing" as epithets, knowing someone will categorize me as the opposite of whichever I employ. Just know that it is not so, and that I use the term "left-wing" here only insofar as it is accurate and appropriate.
@Eulatos: I do not understand why American Liberals have it in for Glenn Beck so much; he is far less American Conservative than Limbaugh, though hardly the libertarian he claims to be, and is far more conciliatory. I suspect it is because, in addition to what I just mentioned, he is also an hysterical buffoon, and both Limbaugh and he are communists.
@Creative: Adroitness expresses best, to the best of my knowledge, what I intended to express. Also, this is different from SotC in that this is sandbox, and therefore, almost by necessity, subjective, gameplay. SotC was either A) devoid of authorial intent and hence no better than what one makes of it, and therefore not deserving of any praise directed at the creator in regards to artistic merit, gameplay design and graphics and the like notwithstanding, or B) intended to mean something, and hence pointlessly convoluted and nebulous by virtue of its presentation. Also, see response to DarthXehanort
@SilentGuy: No, the message and thematic concepts are clearly in the game. I suspect you did not notice because you are desensitized to leftist ideology, or perhaps are not sensitized to ideology in general.
@DarthXehanort: Too much to name here, but broadly (just apply an "anti-" in front of all of these otherwise desirable concepts): Individualism, liberty, independence, self-interest, achievement, reason, integrity, self-esteem, happiness, technological innovation, human improvement, beneficial progress of any kind, et cetera.
Also, you must understand that I am by nature hyperbolic, so when I say "communists," to whom I am really referring are all who are not laissez-faire-capitalists. You are either the aforementioned variety of capitalist, or you are a potential and eventual totalitarian, and those are your only choices. Choose wisely, but realize that a single chink in the capitalist armor is tantamount to totalitarianism of one variety or another, not that the type is of any great concern in the end.
Edit note: forgot my italics symbols for the second "occasionally." Fixed.
10/19/09
...but this NEVER works!!
Seriously. It never does. Ever
Is it so wrong to see those who have been scorned by this dumb-ass system and not want to put just a little restraint on it?
Oh. I misread this. I thought he meant TOTAL laissez faire capitalism.
No capitalism has it's faults, but it's the best system we've got right now. We just try to hammer out the faults when we can and we do our best to make sure that we don't end up killing the whole thing in the process.
10/19/09
Well, if your saying what I think you are, then your initial instinct was correct; I do mean "TOTAL laissez-fiare capitalism."
I don't know how I could have given any impression other than what I intended. What did you think you misread? #toshihironagoshi
10/19/09
Nothing to discuss here!
Really there isn't.
Nice talking to ya though. #toshihironagoshi
10/20/09
I just think its funny when any Ayn Rand-ian uses the word 'existential'. This was no exception.
"Rockstar whose game has as one of its components the most blatant, and blatantly unreasoned, left-wing, anti-American and anti-capitalist stories of any game I've ever played"
You have to wonder how much of the game was planned to be one way for the message or becuase of the format the previous entries set up. As for this one, none of the characters are likable. Niko may be, at first, but by the end we see more and more he's full of it. He puts himself into these situations. A key example of this as the overall message of the game is *SPOILER ALERT* when he finds that dude who sold out his friends from way back when. We assume theres a great reason for it that ties everything together, as does Niko, but after the big reveal we feel dissapointed - it was just something the guy did. Nothing more and noone else to blame. By the end, the game leaves you feeling people bring about their own fate, instead of being products of it. Just because the characters in the game may be against capitalism doesn't mean the game is.
"Also, you must understand that I am by nature hyperbolic, so when I say "communists," to whom I am really referring are all who are not laissez-faire-capitalists. You are either the aforementioned variety of capitalist, or you are a potential and eventual totalitarian, and those are your only choices."
Being a liberal doesn't make you a communist. Being a socialist doesn't make you a communist. Socialism is NOT always a slippery slope to full on communism.
Lets look at it in your terms. A=A. So, since socialism = any level of economic control by the government, and communism = total economic control of the government, then logicaly socialism NOT = communism. I'm sure because of your Ayn Rand-ness your not interested in changing your speech even when you know it will be misinterperted, but this is ridiculous in itself. You only ever speak in order to convey an idea - it is a tool for communicating. If you then communicate in a way you know will not get the desired result, then your not communicating well.
As for speaking or thinking in hyperbole, your simply ignoring the complexities of life. Imagine if biologists looked at things in such black and white terms: The protein either expresses or doesn't (thereby excluding diseases caused by too little protein expression). The protein either functions or doesn't (thereby excluding diseases where slight loss of function is the cause). If you think ideas that apply to social aspects or the human realm are easier, you missed the whole fallacy of the heap - we have no way to properly quantitate human concepts.
Finally, your lack of understanding why SoTC is art is incredible. It also explains to me how Ayn Rands fans could consider her novels 'art' when they are so transperant. The fact is, art is non-literal communication. If it were literal, it would be speech, or a report, or an essay. Consider music: It is often intended to mean something, but the method it uses for communication is so abstract and far from actual language that it is so easy to misinterpert. Are we then to assume all music is not art, and is worthless? #toshihironagoshi
10/20/09
Ok. I don't know why you find my use of "existential" humorous or, I assume, ironic, especially considering the sense in which I was using it.
Because I cannot summon all of GTA IV's story into my mind at this point in time, I would be willing to grant you the idea that the game does possess a semblance of acknowledgment of the importance of free will and individual responsibility, even if only for gameplay and re-playability concerns, in the form of the choices you get to make throughout the game, except that all of the supporting content (radio stations, etc.) have very little of this, and a great deal of typical, though unusual in the realm of video games (not that I don't think most video game designers aren't lefties), anti-right sentiment, some of which I, of course, condone.
As far as socialism and communism, yes, they are not the same thing. A=A, meaning the any given thing cannot be itself and something different at the same time. At least in this, I did not say anything I thought people would misunderstand; You advocate laissez-faire capitalism, the only system consistent with a free society, or you advocate some other economic system, all of which contain contradictions and thus leave the door open for totalitarianism, which will eventually come, uninvited or otherwise.
The hyperbole comment was supposed to be a joke insofar as I realize these people are not communists, which I thought would be obvious when I designated Limbaugh and Beck with the title. It is not a joke insofar as it connotes my previous statement that eventually they will become communists, or will skip that comparatively rosy phase and become totalitarians directly. Also, yes, it is impossible, currently, to quantify human feelings, hence the inherent individualism in deciding on one's hierarchy (or circus, lol) of values.
Art is, according to Rand, and I find myself in agreement, depicting abstractions as concretes in order to convey the artist's values. Therefore, some of Rand's fiction is not art, Galt's speech, and some of it is, Atlas's shrugging. All music, as of now, is non-objective art, and because of that is in the predicament you described, and hence is open to be whatever one wishes it to be, which is fine. Games and books on the other hand, have better means of conveying intention, and so a game like BioShock is relatively straightforward, while a game like Shadow of the Colossus is pointlessly non-objective, even to the extent of the creator placing no intended meaning in his work, differing in that it is not simply impossible to decipher because of the medium, as in music, but that he left it hollow purposefully. Now, if you play SotC and put your own meaning in it, the triumph of man over colossal adversity or what have you, then fine, however, you must recognize it for what it is and have no argument over the superiority of your interpretation over some other's, and not claim to any higher understanding of the author's intention, as people do with the impeccably revolting James Joyce. #toshihironagoshi
10/20/09
You were technically fine on that actually. It didn't occur to me that you meant 'relating to existence' - mostly because that seemed like a painfully wordy way of saying what you were getting at. You could even have said the situation created an 'existential dilemma' - The problem is that word is almost never used unless its relating to existential philosophy, about which Ayn Rand knows nothing, and I've gotten the distinct impression that neither do her followers.
"The hyperbole comment was supposed to be a joke insofar as I realize these people are not communists, which I thought would be obvious when I designated Limbaugh and Beck with the title. "
Here I just assumed you were that extreme. Those two do support socialized education in some form (to the best of my understanding), which has always struck me as the one of the worst socialist programs ever conceived.
"Art is, according to Rand, and I find myself in agreement, depicting abstractions as concretes in order to convey the artist's values. "
I think we have some common ground here. We both agree that some extent of arts success can be measured by how much the target audience gets the artists intention. I disagree with your definition, however.
a) Art doesn't have to be an expression of something abstract. There is a lot of art out there that would be better conveyed as an essay. It may, instead, be the artist’s choice to express a concrete concept through abstract means in order to reach a wider audience. Most movies seem to fit this mold. Gentlemen’s Agreement comes immediately to mind, since the message was made very clear throughout. It is also very simple, but as the movies main character says in the beginning, it’s a message we've all hear a thousand times, and what will just saying it again with more numbers really impact? Hence the choice of dramatic representation.
b) Art conveys through a necessarily abstract (non concrete) means. It seems obvious to me that if something is expressed as concretely, it is merely a statement. A novel would instead be an essay, a movie a documentary, ect. which is fine, but not art. If you look at a painting which depicts a historic event and say "It’s the battle of so and so" you've missed the point. In the brushstrokes, lighting, framing, and composition is the artists disposition to it - which is always abstract. I'm reminded of the forward to A Clockwork Orange where Anthony Burgess questions whether the work is even art at all for the simple reason that he has a character (the priest) openly express the point of the book.
c) Whether art conveys an artist values or not is more a matter of how you are defining 'values'. I enjoy a lot of art that expressed dread, alienation, loneliness, and despair. When I experience such art it is certainly the case that I feel these things, but to say I 'value' them seems a little strange to me, but I readily concede your definition may not bring up an issue between us. Personally, I prefer the word perception, as it’s more encompassing.
SoTC lets you explore an enormous empty world that is simultaneous beautiful and lonely. It is majestic and sad. Maybe the developers don't have a 'story' in mind for the game, but it is clearly evident that every element in the game was carefully crafter to deliver a very strong and specific mood. If you go back to my previous explanation of the games vibe (concrete), you'll find is doesn't duplicate the mood in you that the game (abstract) ever could.
"You advocate laissez-faire capitalism, the only system consistent with a free society, or you advocate some other economic system, all of which contain contradictions and thus leave the door open for totalitarianism, which will eventually come, uninvited or otherwise. "
I don't have atlas shrugged on me, so if you want to discuss this (and I'm fine with it) you'll have to define 'free society' and explain what 'contradiction' other economic systems have. Also, when discussing 'eventuals' my issue is this: if a country is socialist for a thousand years and eventually becomes totalitarian, was this just the 'eventual' realization of a slippery slope started from its conception? And, in that case, since both Rand and (I assume) you believe this country started as Laissez-faire, then how could the system ever begin social programs unless they are eventual in any system (or just uncorrelated to them)? #toshihironagoshi
10/21/09
I'd absolutely love to continue this conversation, but this thread is getting a little stale; want to continue this in the next TAY or maybe create a tag forum?
@Harpo:
Yes, it's bad. You don't mind paying taxes. Fantastic. Pay them. I just hope you expect to have enough people think that way, because you have no right to tell other people that they have to pay taxes to support what you value. People pay taxes. Those are used for "free" healthcare, education, et cetera. Poorer people benefit at wealthier people's expense. Many of the wealthy do not consent to this. Immoral. Here we have "advantages given to one group at the expense of another, as is the inevitable result in all cases of government intervention in the economy" - paraphrase of Rand.
@brownfiasco:
Hypocrisy, or maybe not. Who knows what they do with their money or what they wish were the case in terms of governmental regime; just look at comrades Gates and Moore, implicitly opining for the days of the Great Motherland. #toshihironagoshi
10/28/09
Maybe? I dont know - I've never done a tag forum and don't even know what TAY is (now I feel realy out of the loop). If you can set em up and I can just tag along, sure. #toshihironagoshi
10/29/09
TAY is Talk Amongst Yourselves, the topic they put up about every day where you can talk about anything and it isn't considered off-topic.
A tag forum is just using the new comment box at the very top of the page and tagging it with whatever topic you want, like #AynRand or #Philosophy, for instance. Then you or I could just go to that specific tag and post and respond to each other's comments. #toshihironagoshi
10/19/09
10/19/09
I wonder if there is a mission where you find out why the hell donki's mascot is a blue penguin in a santa hat... #toshihironagoshi
10/19/09
10/19/09
That episode will haunt me for the rest of time... #toshihironagoshi
10/19/09
10/19/09
10/19/09
For instance, i don't think it's immoral to shoot turtles at a girl driving a go-cart, decapitate zombies or shoot people for fun in video games, because for me it's just that, a video game that is a separated thing from what i call reality. If i go in a killing rampage down the streets after i got sniped by a camper in Counter Strike i did it because i had a lot of bigger issues in my head and in my life than a game of Counter Strike.
However apparently he does feels that gaming can act as an ignition or gateway to something bad, so the only logical conclusion to this issues is to agree that some people don't agree on stuff before it turns into a huge flamewar on morals. Because you know, this is the internet.
Also, and this is my opinion, i think music is the most stimulating form of media by far. Hell, imagine games without music and i think you'll get my point. #toshihironagoshi
10/19/09
10/19/09
Also he says and i quote: "that games it's the most stimulating form of media, I think. And thus, it can asked if it's the most dangerous media", so again i have to think he's implying that a game that he considers morally incorrect could spark bad things in the mind of a person.
Perhaps you're right and i'm misunderstanding him, i'm legally medicated so it wouldn't be the first time, but again this is what i'm getting from him.
10/19/09
Screenshot reminds me of Shenmue 2.... ah how I miss that adventure... #toshihironagoshi
10/19/09
Kinda like folks who whine and bitch about games then go buy them anyways.
You just cant take it seriously you know?
But do agree that 4 they did try to work a lot more on the story. #toshihironagoshi
10/19/09
I'd like to see a modernification of GTA2, where you could leave and join gangs at any point you like. If they could pull off that freedom with GTA4's story, it'd be perfection. #toshihironagoshi
10/19/09
There's this one point in the game where you're asked by one of the shadier characters in the game to kill a guy who HE says ratted him out. The mission feels, from start to finish, like one of those kill-him-or-let-him-go moral-decision things. At the end of the mission, with me pointing a gun at the guy's head, I really didn't feel like doing it. However, failing to do so would lead to a Mission Failed screen, so, well, off with his head.
The GTA that gets the attitude RIGHT is Chinatown Wars. All the silly, ridiculous things you do are excused by the protagonist being a smartass dick who goes along with it because, well, what the hell, right? He just doesn't care, as long as he gets what he wants. #toshihironagoshi
10/19/09
10/19/09
Overall I think they did a pretty good job though. It's hard to have a relatively friendly protagonist in a game in which the main goal is to shoot lots of people for the sole benefit of gaining a reputation and/or cash. #toshihironagoshi
10/19/09
As games become more complex I hope developers become more conscious of systems of actions and consequences within games.
Players shouldn't want to not kill a NPC because it's "bad," but rather because there's an in game consequence that will have to be confronted. And confronting this consequence can be part of the game, not just a game over or a slap on the wrist.
10/19/09
With that being said do think he has a point. Another issue is that if they did allow for total freedom like GTA they would have had to remake how the Yakuza game works in regards to combat. Since the encounter system would no longer be necessary for fights and such. Which I can imagine would make for a lot less interesting things in regards to fights.
Also overall it wouldnt fit the personality of the main character either. #toshihironagoshi
10/19/09
As it is people just compare them because they're both about gangsters doing what gangsters do. It's like saying Baldur's Gate is the Dragon Quest of the West because characters level up in medieval style worlds. #toshihironagoshi
10/19/09
With Yakuza, because it is a heavily story-driven game, the player's decisions carry a lot of consequences that must be explored. Hence the question of where he can draw the line between the freedom of movement that GTA enjoys vs the story-driven setting of Yakuza. #toshihironagoshi
10/19/09
If anything Id say its more an action RPG really. #toshihironagoshi
10/19/09
10/19/09
-----
Back on topic Nagoshi is a pretty smart guy who knows whats going on with the western market so its quite interesting to finally hear him speak up in regards to the GTA comparison with his game. Would have been cool to have attended that conference and been able to listen to what else he had to say or more like the full speech. Since was quite interesting 2 years ago when got to sit in on a developers conference. #toshihironagoshi
10/19/09
10/19/09
It's a cause-and-effect question regarding the (a)moral choices we make in a video game. #toshihironagoshi
10/13/09
My boob balls will arrive shortly..
10/13/09
10/13/09
Now I'm not doctor but I'm pretty sure Diabetes is to do with sugar n insulin levels.
10/13/09
10/13/09
10/13/09
10/13/09
10/13/09
And GASP! Kimutaku is on the cover of Men's Non-Non AGAIN this month...whats, thats like 49 consecutive months in a row that he has been the cover? Japan...don't you get tired of that guy?
10/13/09
10/13/09
you know that section of the magazine that's basically forty-eight or so consecutive pages showing collages of photographs of girls? she appears in there -- about four times per page.
like, it kind of surprised me when my friend revealed that there are only about six girls being shown in alllllll of those pages. it kind of blew my mind, a little bit. i guess they start a girl in one outfit, with a little bit of makeup, and at the end of the photo shoot they've subtly changed her hairstyle a dozen times, piled on a ton of clothes, and layered an inch of makeup on her. Not that these girls are even trying to look unique in the first place.
Seriously, now, every time I see a new issue of this magazine at 7-Eleven, I flip through the photo pages Where's-Waldoing the girls, trying to pick out the patterns. I feel like I'm breaking codes for the CIA.
10/13/09
She's deaf?
From what I gather, thats the way magazines are made over here, its always the same 4-5 people. Cam-Cam is a fucking 500 page tome that comes out every month, and it is always the same 5 girls.
10/13/09
In Japan, NOBODY/NOTHING approaches Kimutaku's presence. The only people who care about Yon-sama are middle aged/older women....but Kimutaku supposedly appeals to both men and women of all ages.
But to me he comes across as a massive slimeball who would make Kanye look like a humble soul. Basically every newstand/TV/commericial in Japan features this clown cavorting in front of the camera...acting like he is God's gift.
10/13/09
Yeah.
<_<
10/13/09
I can only imagine the conversation.
"Brian WTF is this I found in your drawer?"
"No dear you misunderstand! This stuff is ESSENTIAL for me to do my job!"
Or something.
10/13/09
10/13/09
Which would lead me to...
"ummm.... Brian, is there something you're not telling me about?"
"Why do you ask dear?"
"I just found this Bar Girl Mag in your drawer... I know the move cost us a lot, but I don't think you needed to take this kind of extra job..."
".... I thought it was your's..."
"..."
"..."
"... Just whose mag is this, anyway?"
10/13/09
Cashier giving Bash the Roger moore eyebrow raise.
BASH IN GRUFF VOICE "Its for research"
10/13/09
Same as my mum used to get magazine for chefs. It wasn't a magazine filled with pictures of like Gordon Ramsay, it was like stuff about trends, tips n tricks, pictures of kitchens n dining areas etc.
10/13/09
09/29/09
09/29/09
It fits in with the Mullatino, the Femullet, the MulletHawk, and the ever popular Mulet(pronounced Mu-Lay, it's European!)
09/29/09
And smelly cheese..France sucks
09/29/09