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Weekend Reader: The Themes of 9/11, and After, in TIE Fighter
Denver, 6:04 PM
Sun Nov 29
8 posts in the last 24 hours
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Weekend Reader: The Themes of 9/11, and After, in TIE Fighter |
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08/16/09
08/16/09
OK, now it's time for cake....and Fox News...Anyone?
08/16/09
Japan had up to (and even to some sense today) been a society of honor before all else. Case in point look into much of the history of the society of how a son no matter how young would be required to avenge the death of this father, to the point of infinity. One Japanese soldier in his diary tells of how a boy the age of 12 or 13 came to him an asked him to train him how to avenge his fathers honor as he had been killed in a duel. Far from discouraging him he trained him and the young man was able to fight and avenge his father by murdering his fathers murderer.
Understand this was a normal situation. The Japanese culture believed regardless of the cost be honorable. The suicidal act of Harri-Kari was considered the honorable way out if one could never achieve justice (ie balance).
This was compounded by the nationalist sense of duty/honor deriving from the nation and commitment to the Emperor himself. To lose face was not acceptable in Japanese society, to lose face as the Emperor was beyond that. The War was not to be finished until every last son of Japan was killed or until an action so overwhelming (such as the A-Bomb dropping) allowed the Emperor to surrender without the loss of honor. You see he to was trapped within the cultural system. The dropping of the A-bomb gave him a way out. Had he surrendered any other way the country was have kept fighting without his leadership as he would have been considered without honor and no longer the leader of the country.
Also would the world be a better place if Japan had been ruled by Stalin? Another communist hell hole of a country like Vietnam, Burma, etc? So instead of flat panel televisions we could all still have 700 pound picture tubes? Really you can say that would have been better for the world if they had surrendered to Russia?
Now on a side note, how do you justify what happened to Germany (millions of civilians were killed by bombs) when they were invaded in World War 2, yet complain when 100k people died in the dropping of the A-Bomb? Do you know that the Japanese had concentration camps too? That they did things like freeze off children and elderly peoples hands, feet, etc for scientific tests? That they did it to POWs as well? Did you know that the Japanese soldiers sense of honor went to the point that they never truly surrendered in fact the allied soldiers had to shoot them even when they did for their own safety? Because they would routinely have live hand grenades in their pockets.
And honestly do you Europeans want to get into an atrocity count? I am a student of history I love the Medieval Age, but come on? Vlad, God wills it..., the Catholic Church being forced to create holidays that carried the penalty of fight on this day and go to hell just to stop you guys from murdering each other? The bloody Inquisition? Or the complete intentional blind eye to the mass murders of the Nazi's or Stalin your fathers could have stopped? BTW Stalin killed almost double the amount of people the Nazi's did, Patton would have finished him off, but you guys wanted peace, at the cost of 9 million + more people.... so you would rather that have happened to more of the world? 100k/9 million... hmmm thats bad math in my book.
No country is blameless, no country has completely honorable intentions. America is no exception, but to vilify a country when at best they have made stupid decisions not evil ones is wrong.
08/16/09
08/16/09
And to be less impolite seppuku in text as a general term for the different forms and reasons.
A correction that I find amusing considering YolandaBritmartis was berating posters for their lack of knowledge of Japanese culture.
08/17/09
Yes. The entire idea of an empire so self- absorbed it thinks it should kill millions in the name of good - just think of the damage they could do to the world if they're not stopped, hm?
*shakes head*
08/16/09
Fast foward alittle bit of time and all of the stormtroopers and and other officers are so brainwashed by the holocubes telling them that the rebels caused the explosion that when someone scientificly explains that theres no way the xwing could have done that, they call him crazy and unpatriotic and a trader to the empire. Darth vader force chokes said person and life goes back to normal hunting rebels.
08/17/09
08/16/09
Anyway, nice to see someone go into more detail about it. Very interesting read.
08/17/09
Then you got a perfect score on it? Wow Netherlands has a horrible education system.
08/17/09
08/17/09
Bear in mind I'm not saying that they are heroes. Merely to keep an open perspective when talking about something like this. It's designed to make you think, which is exactly what an educational institute should be doing.
08/17/09
hah. No, no. Education is learning what the right things are from the wrong things. Which is something we decide on beforehand.
Like someone said - there are noone blameless here. But some are in the right, and some are in the wrong. Simple. No need to think uncomfortable thoughts here.
08/17/09
1) I assume I was graded on my use of the English language, rather than on the actual contents of the essay.
2) I won't deny that our educational system is terrible. In fact, I've been saying the same thing for years.
3) An American criticizing another country's educational system is like a cripple telling me I walk funny.
08/17/09
Thank you, that was also my whole point when I wrote the essay. I can tell you earned that star, and the heart I just gave you.
08/17/09
@strideo: No, some people just have more than one.
08/15/09
the us dropped the bomb for two reasons;
first is that we estimated that we would lose 1 million soldiers conquering Japan. The Japanese empire, led by their god on earth, emperor Hirohito, didnt care one whit about their citizen (read subjects). They were training citizens to repel invadeing forces with their plowshares and pitchforks with guerilla tactics. Japan made it clear they didnt care about their citizens, and would fight to the end. The US needed to end it quickly, or else it would be many Normandys day in and day out to end the Japanese Empire. (easily as evil as the Nazis, for those ignorant fools out there).
The second reason does have to do with Russia; we didnt want to split up Japan the way we did Germany. Only the dumbest of the dumb think the US should have not used nukes, and let the Russians split up Japan the way we did Germany, because nothing has worked out so well as having and Eastern Communist Germany, and a Northern Communist Korea.
Dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki led to some grotesque and disturbing results to the innocent citizens of the Japanese Empire, but you have to be stupid, ignorant, or dishonest to think that the alternatives were better.
08/16/09
The other factors you have to consider are many too.
1) The US really DIDNT know what a bomb would do. They knew it was powerful, knew there would be SOME radiation, did NOT know the extent of it till well into the Cold War.
2) Even at that, the 2 bombs dropped PALED in comparison to the firebombing we did in Japan. Far more civilians died via normal bombing and fire bombing the country. And FAR more people where crippled.
3) For all the horror of radiation, the cancer rate for the cities is not that much different than the rest of the county.
4) and lastly, It was a age where the killing of civilians WAS seen as part of warfare. These days the US military as well as other countries go out of their way to not harm civilians. But back then it was considered how you waged war. You killed the civilian population to make them plead for mercy.
WWII and the dropping of nuclear bombs in Japan can not be viewed through the eyes of 21st century people. It was as they said a different time with different rules.
08/16/09
FWIW neither of us can read Emperor Hirohito's mind and thus the claim that he didn't care about his subjects is an unverifiable statement.
Do we have evidence that such a claim is actually wrong, and that the Emperor was in the mood for surrendering before H+N? Well... actually, yes, we do.
[books.google.ca]
[books.google.ca]
PS why do you feel the need to address any of your potential readers as ignorant fools? Do you think there are people on this thread who somehow think that Imperial Japan was a land of gumdrops and fairytales? It's 64 years later and the country of Japan still hasn't totally come to terms with what it did to China. You have to have done something monstrous to not teach about an aspect of your history in school.
PPS [www.gwu.edu]
Truman et al knew the Japanese were looking for peace. They decided to nuke some of them to hasten the decision.
PPPS Another discusson on what-ifs happened last year at [blackadderiv.wordpress.com] . Interesting is the primary author's statement in regards to North Korea:
"Without Russia’s entering the war in August of 1945, Manchuria and the northern half of Korea would not have fallen under Communist domination, Mao would not have had a base of operations from which to launch attacks against the Kuomintang, and it’s quite possible China would have been spared 30 or 40 million deaths, half of Korea would have been spared the hell on earth that is life in North Korea, and more than 36 thousand U.S. solders would not have had to die to protect South Korea a few years later."
Whether or not this is true is of course open to discussion but as long as we're playing what-if we might as well think about what happened in eastern mainland Asia as a result of how the Allies concluded the war.
08/16/09
Actually declaring war on civilians was not an acceptable method of warfare and there have been many international treaties against it before the outbreak of thesecond world war.
The Nuremberg and Tokyo war crimes trials described crimes against humanity as:
"Murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation, and other inhumane acts committed against any civilian population, before or during the war, or persecutions on political, racial or religious grounds in execution of or in connection with any crime within the jurisdiction of the Tribunal, whether or not in violation of the domestic law of the country where perpetrated" From the proceedings of the Nuremberg trials.
As an aside I would like to add I have had friends many years ago that were part of the enforced labour on the Burma-Siam railway system,(most commonly known through the fictionalised film account "The Bridge on the River Kwai". I do understand just what they went through, even years after he was released he still suffered the effects of malaria and malnutrition. It was an interesting office, one of the other workers was a survivor of the NAZI concentration camp.
08/17/09
Of course trying to avoid a new front with Russia had something to do with the show of force.
08/15/09
Use freedom in a Sentence
–noun 1. the state of being free or at liberty rather than in confinement or under physical restraint: He won his freedom after a retrial.
2. exemption from external control, interference, regulation, etc.
3. the power to determine action without restraint.
4. political or national independence.
5. personal liberty, as opposed to bondage or slavery: a slave who bought his freedom.
6. exemption from the presence of anything specified (usually fol. by from): freedom from fear.
7. the absence of or release from ties, obligations, etc.
8. ease or facility of movement or action: to enjoy the freedom of living in the country.
9. frankness of manner or speech.
10. general exemption or immunity: freedom from taxation.
11. the absence of ceremony or reserve.
12. a liberty taken.
13. a particular immunity or privilege enjoyed, as by a city or corporation: freedom to levy taxes.
14. civil liberty, as opposed to subjection to an arbitrary or despotic government.
15. the right to enjoy all the privileges or special rights of citizenship, membership, etc., in a community or the like.
16. the right to frequent, enjoy, or use at will: to have the freedom of a friend's library.
17. Philosophy. the power to exercise choice and make decisions without constraint from within or without; autonomy; self-determination. Compare necessity (def. 7).
I wouldn't say it's that clearcut, note that some of these definations are modern while others are more ancient ideals. This shows a clear change in meaning.
08/15/09
But I don't think terrorists are the good guys of this story either, even though same ugly thing motivates Luke Skywalker as it does hundreds of young terrorists in their bootcamps. Darth Vader betrayed and killed his father and after he finds Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru burned to death, Luke says.
"There's nothing here for me
now. I want to learn the ways of the Force and become a Jedi like my
father."
Way of the force huh? - and become martyr... I mean Jedi like your father before you.
Great fiction always makes you think things from different perspectives. I believe Star Wars is pure fun and awesome pastime, but it is also very thrilling to find things that wasn't there and think of theories of hidden messages.
I'm european and I personally love american popculture and those precious freedoms we have, I hope you don't get me wrong. Anyways, Tie Fighter was the best Star Wars flying sim ever released. I remember playing it hours and hours and never got tired of it. I loved playing part of the evil empire!
08/15/09
As for Owen and Beru Lars, they died in a domestic dispute. It's been fully documented for years. The assertion that Imperial personnel were responsible for their deaths is nothing but Organa lies.
08/15/09
08/16/09
08/16/09
08/16/09
Great game, but X-Wing: Alliance actually delivered. And that's why it's a better game. Period!
08/16/09
08/16/09
That honor still goes to TIE Fighter regardless, but Knights of the Old Republic (both of 'em!) are visible in the rear-view mirror. Suggesting XWA > TIE Fighter is the real blasphemy; there's an entire wing of MIS headed your way. Just kidding; I don't have any of them around any more.
08/15/09
I'd point out that the loss of Executor was less a deliberate thing than a last gasp by a dying pilot. I doubt Arvel Crynyd suited up that day intending to be the payload on an anti-ship missile. Besides, using an expendable CRV to take out a far larger and theoretically more valuable high value unit like an ISD is good strategy.
As someone else said, the Imperial Navy's strategy plays to its strengths and we attempt to do the same. Obviously, we're the Imperial Navy! Every competent military ever fielded in the multiple thousands of years of organized warfare is nothing more than a stand-in for the Imperial Navy and is led by Emperor Palpatine. Oh, and basic customs duty, i.e. inspecting cargo, amounts to warrantless wiretapping? I'd be interested in seeing what other wonderful gems that the author has in their rhetorical quiver.
That's it; I'm off to reinstall TIE95 and try to overlook the fact that the iMUSE system was a good third of that game's appeal, but alas tossed aside for the Windows-native release. By the way, this will help if you need to get TIE95 running in a modern 3D environment.
Anyone else here utterly hate stack overflow errors? They were the bane of my existence late in TIECD's original run. At any rate, "Congratulations, Mu 1! Secret mission objectives achieved!" will be echoing through my head in the near future, along with those famous words, "Serve the Emperor above all others..."
08/15/09
The A-wing doesnt deliberately fly into the SSD bridge it is shot and then spins out of control, while at the same time the main shield are taken down. It was a completely unintentional accident (by the pilot, not unintentional by the writers obviously) and can no way be compared to suicide bombing strategies
08/15/09
A metaphor has to be complete, however: there would have to be the possibility, for example, of an Imperial soldier restraining himself from engaging a Rebel soldier who was firing while standing in a crowd of children; something that happens in Afghanistan. Of course, knowing the nobility of the Rebellion that would be impossible, and so on and so forth. So taking some ideas and forcing them to fit the metaphor is not valid.
This is aside from some simply bad analysis, even if it was a legitimate metaphor. This is most noticeable in the last two paragraphs, trying to equate Bennet and D'Souza to governmental agents concerned with gathering power to themselves no matter who it hurts (even more so with D'Souza: the man involved was some desk flunky who probably barely knew the book or D'Souza and was writing an ad to sell a book). Even the analysis of the "buzzwords" was bad: It is possible for a man to hate freedom (especially for other people) it is impossible for a man to hate peace and order.
/philosopher rant
08/15/09
Oh, dear.
08/15/09
08/15/09
A) Those who don't have access to a dictionary.
and
B) Those who only want to portray the words as meaning less than other words of their choosing.
Words mean the same thing no matter how times they're used, with few exceptions.
08/15/09
Perhaps he should have used the word "lost" instead of "ambiguous"? Way to argue semantics instead of following what he was saying.
'Freedom' and 'socialism' are indeed buzzwords in modern politics. The details would require another essay but 'freedom' is tossed around hypocritically at best, and the usage of the word 'socialism' reminds me of the paranoid labeling of things as 'communist' back during the Cold War. Bring on McCarthy.
To add, I see the word "terrorist" used way, way too much in the news. Everyone's a damned a terrorist nowadays, to the point where it cheapens the severity of real terrorism.
08/15/09
08/15/09
08/15/09
08/15/09
It's amazing how many people speak on here with absolutely no understanding of history. And this is why ladies and gentlemen we are doomed to repeat it.
08/15/09
I do believe that your view of history is a little historic in itself. There have been several sets of documents released that show that the Japanese were making overtures to the Soviets to negotiate a surrender.
The dropping of the atomic weapons provided the U.S. with some very useful data on the affects of the blast and radiation on a population, and while this may not have been at the forefront of everybodies minds there is evidence that some people had indeed thought about it.
08/15/09
At the end of the war, U.S effectively created a-bomb. The war was basically already won, and scientist plead to leaders not to use it. The thing was, development of the atomic bomb cost so much it had to be used.
The reason behind dropping the bomb at the end of the war was purely strategy to show other allied countries who get's to set new world order after the second world war.
That started the era called Cold War. (In Snake's voice). Russia had to start inventing their own a-bomb, otherwise there could be a chance that U.S had the ability to conquer Russia.
Your theory about dropping the a-bomb to win the war is also false because of the bomb dropped in Nagasaki. At that point, Japan had no purposes of continue fightning.
Two bombs were dropped because U.S wanted to study the effects of the bombs in two different city environments. Hiroshima was flat city, so they could see the damage in it's purest form. Nagasaki (Kita-Kyushu in original plan) on the other hand is city with lots of hills. They studied the effects of the bombs on buildings at different heights.
People of these cities weren't afraid of the Bombers, because during the whole war, they did not drop any bombs to these a-bomb nominee cities. The fact was, airplanes were shooting extremely accurate photographic maps of the cities, before and after the bombings.
These are ugly facts indeed, but they all can be learned either by reading history or going to atomic bomb museums in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. There are real letters, real documents and real facts to be seen and heard about these bombings. I can recommend it for everyone. It is hard stuff to look at, but it is stuff everyone should learn.
08/15/09
"Changing their tactics to expand the coverage and increase the damage, 335 B-29s took off[1] to raid on the night of 9–10 March, with 279 of them[1] dropping around 1,700 tons of bombs. Fourteen B-29s were lost.[1] Approximately 16 square miles (41 km²) of the city were destroyed and some 100,000 people are estimated to have died in the resulting firestorm, more than the immediate deaths of either the Hiroshima or Nagasaki atomic bombs."
These are not things you can really do to an enemy that can fight back. While a ground invasion of Japan would have turned into a bloodbath, there's little reason to think that the Emperor or the Allied Powers wanted such a thing to happen.
The idea that atomic weapons were used on Hiroshima and Nagasaki to test them and/or to intimidate the Soviet Union is ...a lot more viable idea.
BUT HEY maybe I'm just speaking with absolutely no understanding of history amirite!?!
08/15/09
08/15/09
Check Debate over Bombings:
[en.wikipedia.org]
This basically is a debate which has divided people for years. I am not anti-US and I believe I have a quite fair view of your country and people living there, but I'm not blind for acts against humanity either.
US has done pretty nasty stuff during last 100 years and aknowledging them does not make you any less patriot or doesen't make you love your country any less. It makes you smart and what smart people does is vote right and change their country for the best.
A-bomb is a weapon that should not exist. No-one should ever use that kind of a weapon for any reason. That makes US a villain in this story. It doesn't make me Anti-US or it doesn't label all Americans criminals. It was bad decision.
Bad things happened because of it. Development of A-bomb cost too much for not to use it, think about it. That too expensive bomb killed mainly civilians, women and children.
08/16/09
One of the test requirements of the atomic bomb was that it should be in an urban area with a large civilian population, the first bomb was dropped not because it was a good military target but that the hills around the city allowed for the blast to be effectively contained for better monitoring.
The Japanese did want to get the Soviets to mediate a settlement, something that the U.S. forces were worried about as there were several elements who wished to declare war on them at the end of the conflict. The dropping of the atomic bombs on civilian populations sent a message to Stalin.
Stalin in turn realised that by breaking the non-aggression pact between the U.S.S.R. and the Imperial forces would allow him to seize the strategically significant areas of Manchuria and several pacific islands.
Here's some references for you:
Atomic Bomb target requirements:
[www.dannen.com]
Japanese Surrender overtures to the Soviets from the interception of the broken Japanese "Purple code"
[www.gwu.edu]
Elements Of U.S. wish to declare a "swift,decisive" nuclear war on the U.S.S.R.
From "The Hidden Hand:Britain,America and Cold War Secret Intelligence" Richard J. Aldritch.
08/16/09
...speaking as a scientist, when someone refers to documents I've never heard of, I try to find them. Google scholar (or, heck, just plain google) can be a great friend. Try it out: research is fun!
" I've heard of some officer in the Imperial Navy wanting to surrender but no one of any serious significance was planing to surrender."
It depends on if you would call the Emperor significant or not. I'll just link to myself here: [kotaku.com]
"THe majority of you comments on here seem pretty Anti-US"
Being critical of U.S. decisions and policies is not the same as being anti-U.S. It's interesting that no one here in all this talk about nuking hasn't mentioned that we had put Japanese-Americans into internment camps.
Heck, to point out that my current country of residence is sometimes a bigger dick than the U.S., [en.wikipedia.org] .
I think most of us can say that rounding people up and putting them in camps due to their ethnic heritage (instead of, say, being guilty of something) was extremely racist, demeaning, and probably not necessary.
Does admitting that mean we hate the U.S.? Do you think that people have to defend every decision a country makes, good or bad, in order to be a good citizen?
Hypothetically: if a German says that the Holocaust was a horrible event and those responsible for it should all have been shot, is he or she being a good or bad German?
08/16/09
Even more so considering they were on the "home court" with families watching. Nothing more dangerous than a wounded enemy with something to protect.
Another grandfather was part of the campaign in Russia and was captured and spent a good amount of years in a Siberian work camp then was actually freed by Americans and taken back to Japan.
On the US side my other grandfather was part of the 442nd.
Quite trying times for my relatives back then. Considering my grandfather knew that while even though he was in Italy that over in Japan his relatives were fighting for the other side.
From my POV what they and others related to them told me hold a lot more meaning than quoting info off of Wikipedia.
08/16/09
Since personally while its great for a personal reference point, Id have to say its laughable to be using it as actual hard facts in a discussion. Now before you cry foul this is a personal opinion which Im sure many others agree with.
08/16/09
Well at least he has been trying to put forward some corroborating evidence and as an old fart I still view most things on the internet somewhat suspect ;-)
08/16/09
F.E. stuff from South Africa in regards to Rhodesia and the Angolan Conflict.
Though it does make quoting information a huge pain in the ass, due to it requiring me searching through said materials to pull out quotes / data.
Still though wikipedia isnt the best source of information not to mention its quite a common occurance for people to basically "regurgitate" whatever is written on there.
Its far more convincing if said person uses various sources of information to support said cause.
Granted one of the examples given such as his reference to the Mai Lai massacre was an accepted usage due to the fact that not all people are familiar with that incident.
Though overall Im not one thats very fond of / skeptical towards wiki quoters in general. Even more so when that appears to be the majority of the supporting evidence used.
To be fair though some sort of "information" is still better than none. Just people need to remember once again the wikipedia isnt a source one should trust as "word of god". Be sure to always continue the search for information from there and find out what else exists on said topic. There is no excuse not to do so considering how connected the world is with information thanks to technology.
08/15/09
08/15/09
911 was an inside job you reject.
08/15/09
08/15/09
There's probably a million videos on you tube proving it was planned demolition.
08/15/09
08/15/09
Science is not on your side on this one.
Especially political science.
Everyone knows the government is maneuvering for a dictatorship by destroying civil rights.
08/15/09
08/15/09
"My point is the US has clear and for the most part legitimate reasons for being in the Middle East"
This is still an illegal war we're talking about right?
08/15/09
08/15/09
08/15/09
Maybe I'm just pretending that happened? I mean why would Colin Powell go to the U.N. and show satellite photos? Obviously the U.S. was in no way looking for legal reasons to invade Iraq.
08/17/09
..res. 1441 was seen by most as a way to create a politically acceptable conclusion to the Iraq embargo. The US wanted a rationale for going to war..
08/15/09
08/15/09
We factually invaded Iraq for reasons that turned out to be untrue. After that came to light this was ignored by the far right and the war was redefined to give light to it as if it was always a liberation mission.
I've had people call me "unpatriotic" and "disrespectful of troops" for daring to even acknowledge that there were no WMDs found in Iraq. I've heard people on the far right suggest certain people shouldn't be allowed to vote. I've heard people claim there is no good in the world except for Christianity, and that this is a Christian nation and that "respect" for the Bible should be legislated.
I think the scariest moment of my life was when some people started calling French Fries "Freedom Fries" all because the French wouldn't bow down to the USA like lap dogs.
No, the USA may not be like the Empire, but if the far right didn't lose in the last few major elections I fear where our country would have been heading. The far right shamelessly spreads outright lies (such as "Canadian style health care reform and "death panels, both total fabrications many on the right eat up as facts). Just like the Empire, it rallies its supporters with fear and anger. The facts really don't matter, that just gets in the way. The more angry and loud people are the better for the party! I'm sure there are many on the right that would have jumped with joy if Bush tried to take "emergency powers," considering how I've MET several people who don't believe in universal suffrage. Thankfully that didn't happen.
08/15/09
08/15/09
You, my good sir, are a tool if you think either side is truthful. I'm also assuming you're blind considering our leading politicians(almost all far left) are driving our country into a bigger shithole than it ever has been. I'm typically neutral, but I hate to say it, but the right wing media has made much more logic in the last year or so compared to leftists. Seriously, I used to bash rightwings left and right, but at least they understand that you don't get out of debt by spending money you don't have, you save money.
08/15/09