Hey everyone, if any of you are still watching these comments, looks like one fan went and created a Mythbusters post suggesting they get to the bottom of just how big a haystack would have to be to stop you. [community.discovery.com]
Only problem with the speed study, I believe the game slowed you down as you were crossing bridges, in order to give itself more time to load the next zone, did it not?
At the risk of sounding "nit-picky", there are some issues with the "momentum" arguments. First of all, your assuming one must touch the ground with 0 velocity. This shouldn't be necessary, the ground does have stopping power, and you won't die if you have a non-zero velocity. Also, why use bungie cords? Bungie cords utilize an elastic force (one that scales with distance from equilibrium). A hay stack, as far as I know, would provide more of a constant force. At the very least, it wouldn't be a linear force. I know this is all for fun and all, but...just saying.
We chose bungees for a couple of reasons. First, the available information on the compressibility of hay and its ability to stop a falling body is pretty much nothing. We reasoned that a large pile of hay would behave more like a bungee (with the force coming from a different direction) than just a straight, linear deceleration. Also, there are a few assumptions that other people have already pointed out. Yeah, I could have assumed he would hit the ground with a non-zero velocity, that was just an attempt to make things simpler.
In reality, I was thinking that a haystack wouldn't have the linear relationship between stopping force and height that I used in making my calculations (so not anything like a bungee). However, Hooke's law provided a reasonable analog for the sake of argument. I think that it would be a logarithmic trend; at some point you would start to see a decrease in effectiveness of the next foot of hay you added.
It was fun to do and if anyone has any ideas about how they would do it, please tell me. It isn't very often my nerdy love of science and video games intersect.
I would have assumed the hay acted as a drag force. I think that would have been a much better, albeit not the best, approximation then hooke's law. The only thing that Hooke's law would correctly approximate is the fact that the force is resistive. And as you say, you may see some sort of diminishing returns, Hooke's law is the opposite. The force only GROWS in strength, linearly, with distance.
The way I think of this is not that the hay is providing some sort of stopping force, but rather the object (here it would be the jumper) would be transferring energy to the hay. A drag like force would then be the most logical choice to try first. I guess this line of thinking comes from my love of Lagrangian mechanics over Newtonian.
@mshimer5: I used Hooke's primarily because it gave me a convenient way to estimate the distances and heights. I've no doubt there are much better ways to model it, though the most fun and accurate would be dropping a dummy into piles of hay (Mythbusters......)
Not a bad idea, using it as a drag force. What can I say? I'm a chemist first, and a physics nerd much further down the line.
I see your point with the distances/heights; however, you could have just as easily forgotten about force and did a purely energy argument: you start out with all potential then as you fall you gain kinetic. You see how much energy must be dissipated by the "drag" force (aka hay). This will tell you how high the hay would have to be. That would be my take.
Also, I'm glad to hear that chemist at least appreciates physics. I have taught many chemistry majors who ask me "Why do I have to learn physics?" So, keep up your interest in physics :)
@mshimer5: Ha! You were certainly more qualified to answer it than me!
I like your method, seems more elegant than the one I used. The only question is, what value would one assign to hay? (Also, I learned that in reality, a haystack as a cushion is an awful idea, as most of them have trees or vertical logs supporting them)
I love physics, it's a shame my college professors tried to ruin it.
The excuses Todd Howard makes with regards to ammo and meds not weighing anything reek, in all honesty.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed FO3 quite a bit, and I still am. But Fallout 1 and 2, some of the most highly praised PC games in history, did factor in ammo and med weights and it didn't cripple the game or the fun one iota. If anything, it grounded you in the world, as you had to set up stashes for extra supplies - much like the house/apartment in FO3 grounds you in the world.
When I explain to people why I love Kotaku, I always mention the Pac-Man "study" and the feature on Objectivism to describe how varied the content is.
Well, this is yet another Kotaku masterpiece. It must have taken days to figure out all that data.
I don't want to say "You did goode, Owen", because it's very, very lame - but on the other hand, you did do good... Three thumbs up (including that extra one I got on my field trip to Tchernobyl).
I think you could have taken the GTA San Andreas measurements easier by looking at game stats. I believe it shows how much you've run/driven so you could have just drove and seen how much the counter went up.
@Zer033: Good point. I guess I could have started over and spawned a vehicle. The problem is I wouldn't know how far I'd traveled without stopping, pausing and looking at the stats to see if it was long enough. Besides, this was more fun.
Lots of variations that are not accounted for, and remember the hay does not need to stop him to 0 mph, the human body can fall against the ground at a decent speed and sustain, it just has to slow him down enough to survive the fall. Though I do agree that the piles of hay in the game wouldn't be anywhere near enough, I just think our estimates are a little too rough and don't consider enough factors. And at that height wind resistance is important, hell it might even help.
@Covert_Knight: I went with zero to make it a bit simpler and since he gets out of the hay (in game) with little to no injury, without knowing the minimum force needed for minor injury or bruising, I went with zero.
Yeah, at the highest jumps wind resistance would be a factor. Especially with those flowing robes of his. They're pretty rough. The actual model would probably be a logarithmic trend as opposed to the linear one I used, but this seems to work pretty well for comparison's sake.
06/28/09
06/24/09
06/24/09
06/24/09
06/24/09
06/24/09
I don't play games in order to think.
06/24/09
06/24/09
06/24/09
In reality, I was thinking that a haystack wouldn't have the linear relationship between stopping force and height that I used in making my calculations (so not anything like a bungee). However, Hooke's law provided a reasonable analog for the sake of argument. I think that it would be a logarithmic trend; at some point you would start to see a decrease in effectiveness of the next foot of hay you added.
It was fun to do and if anyone has any ideas about how they would do it, please tell me. It isn't very often my nerdy love of science and video games intersect.
06/24/09
The way I think of this is not that the hay is providing some sort of stopping force, but rather the object (here it would be the jumper) would be transferring energy to the hay. A drag like force would then be the most logical choice to try first. I guess this line of thinking comes from my love of Lagrangian mechanics over Newtonian.
06/24/09
Not a bad idea, using it as a drag force. What can I say? I'm a chemist first, and a physics nerd much further down the line.
06/24/09
I see your point with the distances/heights; however, you could have just as easily forgotten about force and did a purely energy argument: you start out with all potential then as you fall you gain kinetic. You see how much energy must be dissipated by the "drag" force (aka hay). This will tell you how high the hay would have to be. That would be my take.
Also, I'm glad to hear that chemist at least appreciates physics. I have taught many chemistry majors who ask me "Why do I have to learn physics?" So, keep up your interest in physics :)
06/25/09
I like your method, seems more elegant than the one I used. The only question is, what value would one assign to hay? (Also, I learned that in reality, a haystack as a cushion is an awful idea, as most of them have trees or vertical logs supporting them)
I love physics, it's a shame my college professors tried to ruin it.
06/24/09
Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed FO3 quite a bit, and I still am. But Fallout 1 and 2, some of the most highly praised PC games in history, did factor in ammo and med weights and it didn't cripple the game or the fun one iota. If anything, it grounded you in the world, as you had to set up stashes for extra supplies - much like the house/apartment in FO3 grounds you in the world.
06/24/09
Well, this is yet another Kotaku masterpiece. It must have taken days to figure out all that data.
I don't want to say "You did goode, Owen", because it's very, very lame - but on the other hand, you did do good... Three thumbs up (including that extra one I got on my field trip to Tchernobyl).
06/24/09
Great article, thank you!
06/24/09
C'mon!
06/24/09
06/24/09
06/24/09
Now something I want to know: At the end of FF7 (don't kill me), how can Sephiroth blow up the sun twice?
06/24/09
Weeaboo Fighting Magic.
06/24/09
I am not sure whatt my mile time is, but my 1500m is 5.28 which is ot great, but then I am overeight and unfit
06/24/09
06/24/09
06/24/09
06/24/09
06/24/09
Assassin trainings most important secret doesnt require losing a finger..
06/24/09
Correct.
Lots of variations that are not accounted for, and remember the hay does not need to stop him to 0 mph, the human body can fall against the ground at a decent speed and sustain, it just has to slow him down enough to survive the fall. Though I do agree that the piles of hay in the game wouldn't be anywhere near enough, I just think our estimates are a little too rough and don't consider enough factors. And at that height wind resistance is important, hell it might even help.
06/24/09
Yeah, at the highest jumps wind resistance would be a factor. Especially with those flowing robes of his. They're pretty rough. The actual model would probably be a logarithmic trend as opposed to the linear one I used, but this seems to work pretty well for comparison's sake.
06/24/09
06/24/09
Can Fahey really rip a phonebook in half while being attacked by a cat?
Is Crecente's hair woven from angel eyelashes?
Could Owen outdrink the Stranger from Vault 101?
06/25/09
How is that a "myth"? :)