Steve, that was a very good, very calm explanation you gave. It didn't cover a lot in that time frame, but it's better than stuttering your way through then entire conversation. It makes for a much easier time for both sides to ponder and consider. I say thank you.
At this point, anybody who hasn't made it to the mentioned level, do not read past this point.
I had seen a playthrough of "No Russian" by the time I got to the level itself in my own save. In particular, it was being played by a dude who literally said "fuck it" and just blasted the crap out of the civilians.
I just couldn't do that myself.
I got as far as letting the elevator doors open up, and I pointed the gun at the security staff... And I couldn't do it.
This was a lot different for me, because of how I like to play video games. I'm also a D&D GM, so I tend to really get into character. Anyway, point is, I play games to see what I can do outside of my real world limitations, but within my own mindset. I am myself, but different.
And deep down inside, I couldn't live with that kind of imagery in my head, by my hand, because I know in real life I would never be capable of pulling the trigger in time before security kicked my ass to the ground. It's not something I can stomach doing in real life, and simulated.
And what makes playing MW2 so much more different than playing something like GTA SA is that one plays it for psychopathic laughs. You know these people are caricatures, just funny reactionary ragdolls. But when you're doing it in MW2, the preceeding cutscene gets you into the mindset that you have to do this, that you have to mow down what are clearly innocent people. And this time, you don't get a true choice about it.
Namely, the game is almost goading you into doing it because it knows that you might not be able to do it. GTA offers you a slim choice of leave them alone or kill them til the cops arrive. But in GTA you KNOW deep down that this is just stupid hilarity. MW2 doesn't give you that luxury of saying no, in the indirect sense. Yes, you can say no, but it is a meta kind of no: it acknowledges here that it is a game, and that you are given a choice. Within the level, though, you are compelled against saying no, because the only way is forward, and it's clogged to the brim with people. People you are being asked casually to kill.
And finally, at the very end, your PC dies anyway. Its a shock, and since I knew that from the beginning, I realized that he'll never get the chance to live it down, to make it up to humanity, because he's just become fucking bait for the Russian government. Allen is no longer the secret, it's Makarov's intents for the entire level. He is leading Allen along the entire time, making him (and us, by extension) believe that this is necessary. And it ends with us becoming fucking bait.
That's possibly one of the strongest reactions I've had to a game as an individual. I'm not going to condemn those who played it through and enjoyed it. I won't because it never really happened, it's a level filled with false bodies and false reactions to serve the needs of the medium. But in the end, I can't help but feel the whole point of the level was Infinity Ward looking at its audience, and asking: Why do you enjoy this? What would it take for you to almost hate doing this, playing this game? What will it take before you realize that in real life, you can't just shoot without consequences? It may be giving them too much credit, but they're questions that are important both to ourselves as gamers and to the outsiders unfamiliar with our medium.
I was offended by this level. Not because of the whole "killing ciivilians" thing, but because it was fuckng stupid, on a number of levels. (spoiler alert)
To start, you're "placed," through whatever machinations, on Makarov's 5-man terrorist squad. Yeah right. Think Donnie Brasco times 1000. Getting picked by Makarov for this mission would require months if not years of infiltration and feigned loyalty. Maybe we can grant that Makarov picked you because he knows you're an American, and that's part of his plot, but that leads to "stupid note" #2.
So Makarov knows you're an American counter-terrorist. And he lets you walk around behind him and his goons with a loaded LMG. Because of course he would have no fear that you would gun him down to stop the slaughter.
Then the mission all goes according to his plan, and he takes you out at the end, so the Russians will think it's an American operation. Because after all, when the CIA sends you to do deep cover infiltration, they make sure you take your American passport and your wallet with your "Hi, I'm an American!" ID card.
Subsequently, the pinning of the massacre on the Americans is supposed to start a war between Russia and the US. Sorry, don't buy it. Why would the discovery of one American "terrorist" ignite a war between superpowers? Hell, the "discovery" of 19 Saudi terrorists didn't get us to go to war against Saudi Arabia, did it?
And of course there's the whole "five dudes with bulletproof vests casually take out an army of armored/shielded police" thing. This one I can kind of forgive and chalk it up to the nature of video games, but back in 1997 it only took SWAT 15-20 minutes to take down two bank robbers wearing full body armor and trauma plates.
To top it all off, the mission was boring as hell. I wanted to skip it about half way through, but I wanted to see how it played out.
( shake cows, win a ) Milkshake! promoted this comment
Edited by R_Shackelford at 11/13/09 9:44 AM
R_Shackelford was starred
R_Shackelford was unstarred
That mission was one of the most memorable of the whole game. It definitely evoked an emotional response. Although I didn't enjoy killing the civilians, while I was doing it, it brought out an emotion like 'woah, I'm right in the middle of how terrorism goes down, and it feels terrible." I give the makers props for having the balls to make a game great, not just good. #modernwarfare2
@greasedupdeafguy: It's good that you can adjusted yourself morally, but what if one single person can't? People can go crazy sometimes.
Some people say violence is everywhere and it's like movies and books, I have to say games are different than other medium: Games are interactive. Players are experiencing the story in first person perspective, not 3rd person with 4th wall. And, the developer intends to deliver such experience as real as possible.
I surprise myself by my stand in this issue. I always thought Jack Thompson is crazy, but now I am leaning toward his idea (just a little), and I think the developer is (sort of) playing with fire. And we all know, with great power, comes with great responsibility.
I am aware the level can be skipped, but the argument would expend to indiviualism v.s. collectivism. #modernwarfare2
@Witzbold: Yeah, great job, Stephen - drawing the comparison to books and movies being geared towards different age groups was an excellent point that I hope won't go unnoticed. Props also to the MSNBC women for being reasonable and level-headed regarding what could easily be a fear-mongering segment. It's refreshing to see games discussed with civility on a mass media outlet. #modernwarfare2
@Witzbold:
I second that! Very well done. You stayed calm and objective. You didn't defend the scene, but discussed how games are evolving, and even how the fact that this is not the norm in videogames. Well said.
I hope you get to do more interviews on controversial games in the future. You do a good job representing them in a more intellectual way, breaking the poor stereotype of aggressive, unlearned gamer. Kudos. :) #modernwarfare2
I wish people would stop saying the level is upsetting. It isn't at all. It is a video game, having it happen in real life is upsetting, doing it in a video game is different. Shooting a computer generated civilian is as upsetting as shooting a computer genertated dog or enemy soldier.
The media and even Kotaku at this point have caused this level to be blown out of all proportion. If the media hadn't cried out about it no one would have cared about it, it would have been just another level in a video game. #modernwarfare2
Finally a news show getting someone from our industry who can actually converse and relay the proper message to the people who don't understand our passion. Thank you for doing that Stephen, and awesome interview, you are a great speaker. #modernwarfare2
While the controversy is overblown, I have to admit the level where
*** Spoiler Alert ***
you're playing undercover as the terrorist in the airport was kind of fucked up. I didn't shoot any civilians, and only shot at the cops once I had to. I don't know, I think there's better ways to accomplish the same sort of thing without putting you behind the muzzle during a massacre.
*** End Spoiler ***
But I would never say they shouldn't or couldn't make whatever level they want. I just didn't really care for it. Yeah, I know it was optional, but there's no way I'm skipping levels in any game.
But then again, I downloaded Battlestations Pacific because it was the mid-week Steam deal, and in the very first level you're the Japanese attacking Pearl Harbor. I'd love to see some media indignation about B:P. I guess it's not a popular enough game to warrant the outrage (because, after all, it's about sensationalism and ratings, not objective investigation). #modernwarfare2
@Strangelove: I did the same thing. I used the riot shield as much as I could and then chucked grenades and didn't watch. I thought it was a little messed up. Now the civilians in the favela gang spec ops mission....those are a different story. They make me so mad by hiding behind exploding barrels!!!! #modernwarfare2
@Count Hippopopolous: It just feels different during that level. In GTA, it's all sort of tongue-in-cheek, and the way they bounce off your car and fly through the air is oh-so-satisfying. #modernwarfare2
@WhoreofSpamylon: You're talking to a guy who believes that the 4th 9/11 plane was shot down over PA, so I understand the concept of collateral damage. But at the same time, I wouldn't want to be the guy that has to do it. Guess that's why I'm not CIA. #modernwarfare2
@Strangelove: This is the point, these situations happen in real life and it is difficult for the people trained to make these decisions. Now you're going to try and make gamers feel what that is like. Uh, why? #modernwarfare2
@GoonerVance: Yes, people infiltrate different criminal/terrorist cells. Do they actively participate in a terrorist act/massacre? No. They work to infiltrate and prevent the massacre before it happens.
I'm not naive. I know that horrible shit is done and the ends justify the means. But if you're suggesting a 9/11 hijacker, a madrid/india/bali bomber or any other incident of mass murder had active undercover participants, you're wrong. The level in MW2 is taken to a (il)logical extreme, just like Jack Bauer on 24. #modernwarfare2
@Strangelove: Yeah I agree with you completely. I don't know where you thought I was in disagreement. I was saying I'm sure these things have happened, I don't remember saying they happened on 9/11. I'm merely pointing out that the feelings someone would have, killing innocents or allowing innocents to be killed for the "greater good", aren't the kind of feelings games should try to solicit from their players. There's good reason to see a tragic movie, because it makes you feel sad to witness terrible events, but to share in the tragedy yourself is too much. #modernwarfare2
I'll save my piece for the game club discussion tomorrow, but I just wanted to commend Totilo on putting himself out there to help explain exactly what is going on in the controversial mission, and MSNBC for being a non-combative news outlet. We all know how certain OTHER news outlets would have handled a guest defending violent video games... #modernwarfare2
@Revolution_is_coming: At least it wasn't CNN. I know most people hate Fox, but I've never seen a reporter start ARGUING with the person she's trying to interview on Fox. #modernwarfare2
@DocSeuss: @Revolution_is_coming: That's what I really was trying to say. They were at least willing to hear what Steven had to say instead of swiftly getting defensive, heated, and argumentative. #modernwarfare2
@ThisCharmingMan: Oh, cool. I thought you were just being snide about Fox, which is starting to become one of my many pet peeves, alongside youtube videos of foxes and Fox Mulder slash fiction and furry fox porn. #modernwarfare2
Transformers 2 the highest grossing movie of the year so, only made $220 million in it's entire run and that had megan fox's ass people!" #modernwarfare2
Transformers 2 has made about 400 million dollars over its run in the US and nearly 850 million worldwide (which is what that $310 million day is referring to). And that's just box office receipts. Doesn't include DVD/Bluray sales.
11/14/09
11/13/09
At this point, anybody who hasn't made it to the mentioned level, do not read past this point.
I had seen a playthrough of "No Russian" by the time I got to the level itself in my own save. In particular, it was being played by a dude who literally said "fuck it" and just blasted the crap out of the civilians.
I just couldn't do that myself.
I got as far as letting the elevator doors open up, and I pointed the gun at the security staff... And I couldn't do it.
This was a lot different for me, because of how I like to play video games. I'm also a D&D GM, so I tend to really get into character. Anyway, point is, I play games to see what I can do outside of my real world limitations, but within my own mindset. I am myself, but different.
And deep down inside, I couldn't live with that kind of imagery in my head, by my hand, because I know in real life I would never be capable of pulling the trigger in time before security kicked my ass to the ground. It's not something I can stomach doing in real life, and simulated.
And what makes playing MW2 so much more different than playing something like GTA SA is that one plays it for psychopathic laughs. You know these people are caricatures, just funny reactionary ragdolls. But when you're doing it in MW2, the preceeding cutscene gets you into the mindset that you have to do this, that you have to mow down what are clearly innocent people. And this time, you don't get a true choice about it.
Namely, the game is almost goading you into doing it because it knows that you might not be able to do it. GTA offers you a slim choice of leave them alone or kill them til the cops arrive. But in GTA you KNOW deep down that this is just stupid hilarity. MW2 doesn't give you that luxury of saying no, in the indirect sense. Yes, you can say no, but it is a meta kind of no: it acknowledges here that it is a game, and that you are given a choice. Within the level, though, you are compelled against saying no, because the only way is forward, and it's clogged to the brim with people. People you are being asked casually to kill.
And finally, at the very end, your PC dies anyway. Its a shock, and since I knew that from the beginning, I realized that he'll never get the chance to live it down, to make it up to humanity, because he's just become fucking bait for the Russian government. Allen is no longer the secret, it's Makarov's intents for the entire level. He is leading Allen along the entire time, making him (and us, by extension) believe that this is necessary. And it ends with us becoming fucking bait.
That's possibly one of the strongest reactions I've had to a game as an individual. I'm not going to condemn those who played it through and enjoyed it. I won't because it never really happened, it's a level filled with false bodies and false reactions to serve the needs of the medium. But in the end, I can't help but feel the whole point of the level was Infinity Ward looking at its audience, and asking: Why do you enjoy this? What would it take for you to almost hate doing this, playing this game? What will it take before you realize that in real life, you can't just shoot without consequences? It may be giving them too much credit, but they're questions that are important both to ourselves as gamers and to the outsiders unfamiliar with our medium.
Thanks for reading. #modernwarfare2
11/14/09
11/13/09
To start, you're "placed," through whatever machinations, on Makarov's 5-man terrorist squad. Yeah right. Think Donnie Brasco times 1000. Getting picked by Makarov for this mission would require months if not years of infiltration and feigned loyalty. Maybe we can grant that Makarov picked you because he knows you're an American, and that's part of his plot, but that leads to "stupid note" #2.
So Makarov knows you're an American counter-terrorist. And he lets you walk around behind him and his goons with a loaded LMG. Because of course he would have no fear that you would gun him down to stop the slaughter.
Then the mission all goes according to his plan, and he takes you out at the end, so the Russians will think it's an American operation. Because after all, when the CIA sends you to do deep cover infiltration, they make sure you take your American passport and your wallet with your "Hi, I'm an American!" ID card.
Subsequently, the pinning of the massacre on the Americans is supposed to start a war between Russia and the US. Sorry, don't buy it. Why would the discovery of one American "terrorist" ignite a war between superpowers? Hell, the "discovery" of 19 Saudi terrorists didn't get us to go to war against Saudi Arabia, did it?
And of course there's the whole "five dudes with bulletproof vests casually take out an army of armored/shielded police" thing. This one I can kind of forgive and chalk it up to the nature of video games, but back in 1997 it only took SWAT 15-20 minutes to take down two bank robbers wearing full body armor and trauma plates.
To top it all off, the mission was boring as hell. I wanted to skip it about half way through, but I wanted to see how it played out.
11/14/09
Oh please. #modernwarfare2
11/13/09
11/13/09
Some people say violence is everywhere and it's like movies and books, I have to say games are different than other medium: Games are interactive. Players are experiencing the story in first person perspective, not 3rd person with 4th wall. And, the developer intends to deliver such experience as real as possible.
I surprise myself by my stand in this issue. I always thought Jack Thompson is crazy, but now I am leaning toward his idea (just a little), and I think the developer is (sort of) playing with fire. And we all know, with great power, comes with great responsibility.
I am aware the level can be skipped, but the argument would expend to indiviualism v.s. collectivism. #modernwarfare2
11/13/09
11/13/09
11/13/09
I second that! Very well done. You stayed calm and objective. You didn't defend the scene, but discussed how games are evolving, and even how the fact that this is not the norm in videogames. Well said.
I hope you get to do more interviews on controversial games in the future. You do a good job representing them in a more intellectual way, breaking the poor stereotype of aggressive, unlearned gamer. Kudos. :) #modernwarfare2
11/13/09
11/13/09
11/13/09
The media and even Kotaku at this point have caused this level to be blown out of all proportion. If the media hadn't cried out about it no one would have cared about it, it would have been just another level in a video game. #modernwarfare2
11/12/09
11/12/09
Great job! #modernwarfare2
11/12/09
11/12/09
*** Spoiler Alert ***
you're playing undercover as the terrorist in the airport was kind of fucked up. I didn't shoot any civilians, and only shot at the cops once I had to. I don't know, I think there's better ways to accomplish the same sort of thing without putting you behind the muzzle during a massacre.
*** End Spoiler ***
But I would never say they shouldn't or couldn't make whatever level they want. I just didn't really care for it. Yeah, I know it was optional, but there's no way I'm skipping levels in any game.
But then again, I downloaded Battlestations Pacific because it was the mid-week Steam deal, and in the very first level you're the Japanese attacking Pearl Harbor. I'd love to see some media indignation about B:P. I guess it's not a popular enough game to warrant the outrage (because, after all, it's about sensationalism and ratings, not objective investigation). #modernwarfare2
11/12/09
11/12/09
11/13/09
Okay, but really though, I just realized that through Grand Theft Auto, we've been mowing down civilians for years.
Well, not as terrorists. But as gangsters. #modernwarfare2
11/13/09
In real life, you may have blown it and, thus, would not receive a tip on where and when this or that nuclear catastrophe would happen.
Just saying. #modernwarfare2
11/13/09
11/13/09
11/13/09
11/13/09
I'm not naive. I know that horrible shit is done and the ends justify the means. But if you're suggesting a 9/11 hijacker, a madrid/india/bali bomber or any other incident of mass murder had active undercover participants, you're wrong. The level in MW2 is taken to a (il)logical extreme, just like Jack Bauer on 24. #modernwarfare2
11/14/09
11/12/09
11/12/09
11/12/09
11/12/09
11/12/09
11/12/09
11/12/09
11/12/09
11/12/09
11/12/09
"To put it in perspective
Modern Warfare 2 made $310 million in one day.
Transformers 2 the highest grossing movie of the year so, only made $220 million in it's entire run and that had megan fox's ass people!" #modernwarfare2
11/12/09
Transformers 2 has made about 400 million dollars over its run in the US and nearly 850 million worldwide (which is what that $310 million day is referring to). And that's just box office receipts. Doesn't include DVD/Bluray sales.
Still, yay MW2. And go go Totilo. #modernwarfare2
11/12/09
11/12/09