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Denver, 10:47 PM
Tue Dec 15
64 posts in the last 24 hours
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11/07/09
If Portal was a book, would you, after reading it, start thinking about how authors control your progression through books? #discussion
11/07/09
11/07/09
Taking your analogy of a book, imagine reading a book about World War 3 and near the end of the book the author suddenly leaves the 3rd person narrative and begins addressing you, the reader, and describes how nothing in the book is real: the characters actually are dreaming the whole thing, the situations and events are now worthless. The suspension of disbelief goes out the window and the author is giving you the choice to continue reading knowing that everything that happens is arbitrary and once the story is over, a veil will be lifted, identifying that the characters are in fact not dead and never had those adventures, but are in fact living on an island in Greece, drinking Margaritas on a lottary wining tab.
He should have drawn parallels within the Assissin's Creed world as well. #discussion
11/07/09
11/07/09
Picture the case of someone throwing a ping pong ball at you - you would have to try extremely hard to actually take some kind of harm from it. If someone just did it normally, you could dodge it, bat it away, ignore it, toss it back. Psychologically, most people might be a little annoyed, or find it fun. Now if someone tied you to a chair and did the same thing, you'd be no more harmed materially, but you'd have less control. It would seem more sinister and threatening. You couldn't avoid it, you'd know that they could do anything else while you're restrained, you couldn't retaliate... I think what keeps games fun, even when they take control away from the player, is that they can never truly take control away from the player - only in the context of the game. In this way, the protagonist may be going through a miserable situation, but to most players, it will lack the gravity to truly make them unhappy... maybe frustrated or angry, but has a game ever made you truly scared beyond the time you're playing it? Has one made you deeply sad, even after you've quit and moved on? They can only intrude so far into our lives, so any control they take from us is freely relinquished to them for the sake of play. #discussion
11/07/09
I'd say that's more a limit on the ideas used in games than in the medium itself.
Maybe we haven't yet played a game as profound as War and Peace (or, hell, HBO's The Wire), or that contained ideas as world-changing as the Gospels or the Communist Manifesto... But I'd hate to think that means interactive media will never be able to have a truly significant emotional, social, or cognitive impact on the player. #discussion
11/08/09
I think as artistic or narrative works, games have been fully capable for a long time, just often underutilized. #discussion
11/09/09
Look at movies for another example. Most "art" films didn't arrive until 100+ years after film was invented. My point is that considering we're only a little over 30 years into our medium, we're doing pretty well for ourselves.
That said, Resident Evil: Nemesis scared the shit out of me even after I turned it off, half expecting a zombie dog or Nemesis to jump out at any moment. How many people literally cried after Aeris died? You know how accomplished I personally felt at the end of Halo 3? That I had finally conquered a war that took me years of my own literal life to finish? I would say games really do have far more capability to convey these emotions, because of the fact that we are actively involved with the story, compared at least to a passive medium like film. #discussion
11/07/09
It's an incredible example of manipulation via game design, even more so than Portal, I think. #discussion
11/07/09
11/07/09
It seemed cruel, but I did it. #discussion
11/07/09
So what's the difference between this essay and, oh the entire internet?! #discussion
11/07/09
Sit down, read a book/watch a movie/listen to music, and then forget about the damn thing. It's just stress and boredom management in the end...
Oi vey... is this what we've come to? Is this the sort of thing that we need to do in order to assuage our guilt about wasting our time reading/watching movies/listening to music? This crazy, messed up obsession with doing everything we can to analyze what we consume. #discussion
11/07/09
I think it's good to reflect of the story of a novel, or film... or game.
What bugs me is when people get all into the symbolism of those books and movies. It especially bothers me when novels with hardly any story get so widely acclaimed for "brilliant symbolism."
I don't want to hear about how the Martian Chronicles sends a brilliant message about human nature, and expansion. It's a shitty book. Get over it. #discussion
11/07/09
Some art/film/literature/music is just an entertaining diversion, perhaps with some quick thrills and wish fulfillment fantasy.
Some art/film/literature/music is meant as an expression of an idea or emotion, and the sense of satisfaction does not come as much from your own amusement, as it does from your own sense of gaining new insight about a certain thing.
Some art/film/literature/music is a combination of both of the above.
I do not understand your insistence upon dismissing a beneficial way of appreciating some types of art/film/literature/music. #discussion
11/07/09
I don't disagree with what things in literature can represent. I just don't like it when symbolism is valued more by authors than a quality story.
I think a great story is the best form of art there is. #discussion
11/07/09
Sit down, play a game, and then forget about the damn thing. It's just stress and boredom management in the end...
Oi vey... is this what we've come to? Is this the sort of thing that we need to do in order to assuage our guilt about wasting our time playing video games? This crazy, messed up obsession with doing everything we can to make it seem justified? #discussion
11/07/09
@MrBionic: Congratulations Guido, I award you the: #discussion
11/07/09
11/07/09
Anything popular will get examined to a degree certain people dislike. The Matrix had it happen when the first film blew up and made the masses realize that maybe all 'this' isn't real at all.
There are countless books on sports, the players, the plays, and the equipment.
Religion has, probably, more books on those many subjects than you could ever hope to read in a thousand lifetimes (a human life time averaging about 70 years. )
Get used to it. #discussion
11/07/09
other forms of art - movies, books, music - since pretty much the beginning of time have always been interpreted and discussed to find deeper meaning, whether the creator meant those meanings to be there or not. why should video games be treated any differently? yes, some games are just meant to be a pick up and play and forget experience, just like with any other medium, but why do you think it's so bad that someone looks for deeper meaning? #discussion
11/07/09
In any case, he's just another guy behind a desk like many of us.
And besides, it's not like we're reading Mencken here. #discussion
11/07/09
I read a book and I enjoy it, and I move to another. I watch a film and I enjoy it and I move to another. I examine religion and I laugh at it and I move on.
Sure, perhaps I should get used to it, because humanity are idiots, and will never stop trying to take themselves too seriously, but it doesn't mean I can't call it out every now and then. #discussion
11/07/09
11/07/09
11/07/09
This anti-art b.s. is rediculous. The fact that you simply digest culture is revolting.
The entire purpose of culture studies, whether you enjoy it or not, is to create better culture through analysis. Every book, every movie, ever game you've ever enjoyed has been directly affected by what has come before it. By analyzing works of art we are able to see what works and what doesn't.
Here the author makes a case for meta-narrative because its an effective tool. A game designer, who actually gives a crap about making a good game rather than simply replicating a D&D campaign they once played, should study game theory and learn from it to build a bigger toolbox for content creation.
This is why people say pretentious things about art and why we're concerned with video games being art, rather than commodity. It's important that games help to teach us something about the human condition rather than simply waste our time and energy. #discussion
11/07/09
11/07/09
Video games are an experience, and people get different things from them. Oh sure, a developer didn't put mountains of depth in Halo's story and other games like it, but why can't we find it? Who says we must all have the same reaction, the same experience?
I'm not saying you're wrong. I solely play games for their entertainment value, but try to understand that people don't do this because of "guilt" or because they require depth. They see these things and have these reactions because that's just who they are. #discussion
11/07/09
It seems to me that you're saying nothing in this world is worth analyzing, that everything should be created and digested on a superficial basis without any further dissection. How can a life without analysis be worth living? What's the point of arguing in a comments thread then? Your nihilism perplexes me. "This crazy, messed up obsession with doing everything we can to make [games] seem justified" is just human nature, trying to find meaning in all things, no matter who finds them trivial. How is that "idiotic?" How else would we progress a species, to create new art forms and technology? #discussion
11/07/09
11/07/09
How're your tuition fees? #discussion
11/07/09
Not everyone feels guilty about the fact that they play video games. I certainly don't, why do you?
Granted, the portal conversation is a bit old, but there were several interesting topics to discuss, topics like:
GlaDOS seems to be a slave who is trying to end her own existance by "training" Chell clones to kill her. You're just the only clone that was ever successful, maybe. Or:
The designers of the game provided developer commentary similar to the commentary that can be listened to while watching a DVD. It discusses how to use environmental queues to educate users. This might be transposed to "real" education."
Video games have evolved from simple "boredom management" products into what this humble commenter thinks of as art. Not everything is great or shines, but not everything is just pong, either.
Just because you can't or won't join the discussion, doesn't mean it isn't wort having.
Oh, wait, I forgot: it's cool to insult people on the internet. Enjoy your anonymity. #discussion
11/07/09
11/07/09
Now, only because it's timely, the best example I can give now is Modern Warfare 2. Last year (or a year before, I forgot. I got mine on PS3) it was Bioshock.
These games pushed (or will push), the boundaries. If we are going to start calling games an art form, you need to start looking at them like art. That includes critiquing them, and taking a deeper look. #discussion
11/07/09
Generic shooter meets pretentious story-line. THAT's never happened before :D #discussion
11/07/09
The storyline makes the game; every time.
Assuming it's not some casual game made for short periods of play. #discussion
11/07/09
11/07/09
You seem to draw the line too much backwards and refuse to think about anything in video games in retaliation of others drawing the line too far. Neither of you is right. #discussion
11/07/09
Whether it's trolling a forum or just realizing that a game reminds you of something that's happened in your personal life, I guarantee you've done some analytical thinking in your day. Any art can help to expand that thinking, whether you realize it or not. #discussion
11/07/09
Everything is food for you, and that's okay. That's your choice, and you're far from alone in making it.
But you may want to take a moment to consider that you're discussing (at an extended length) your ideas about the proper application of mental attention, in multiple posts on an internet thread, and then see if that rings any warning bells for you about "taking things seriously". #discussion
11/07/09
11/07/09
However, you seemed to maybe miss on something in the discussion: it ever occurred to you that some people enjoy analyzing something, even to death?
Because I kind of do! #discussion
11/07/09
11/07/09
11/07/09
And we finally arrive at a decent conclusion :D #discussion
11/07/09
My point is, I think not thinking about the shit you play, watch, or listen to is ignorant.
/end rant #discussion
11/07/09
11/07/09
11/07/09
If you, or anyone else, feels differently, that's great too, that's what you feel. I just love that, most of the time, people get into an uproar when you don't feel the same way they do, and tend to use all kinds of intellectualism and sesquipedalian methods to make their silly "how dare he!" outrage seem like something more than it is.
In the end, however, it's all just every one of us making a statement for ourselves. Whether it's out of boredom, or mischief, or a genuine sense of just wanting to be heard.
Let all discussion flourish, even if I think it's worthless :D #discussion
11/07/09
11/07/09
11/07/09
11/07/09
11/07/09
11/07/09
11/07/09
Portal wouldn't be the same were its narrative presented as a movie because you are no longer the rat. You're watching the rat.
Games don't always have to be art but it's nice to see that they can be. To me art is an eternal struggle to communicate more intimately with another. There's no reason for you to agree with me but I'd still like you to hear me out. I'm sure you would want the same from me. #discussion
11/07/09
(I wrote this thing to pick your brain)
You sir, are a are a sorry excuse of wasted sperm/egg/tissue/cells/brain- Richard Alcohol if I ever did see one. No I'm not gonna bitch at you with my artsy (even though I believe in a creator and deeper meaning for things) and yes ultimately you could do all the pondering in the world and nothing good will ever come from talking about a single discussion like what this article is about. But what this article DOES have is input for a mental library. It gives something to consider in terms for growing in maybe how to make a video game from maybe a greater prospective from someone with an outlook on maybe life from both an anti and god fearing prospective.
If your one to think about "its just a form of enjoyment and then its gone?" then when your sitting there and enjoying it what are you thinking and feeling about what ever your "enjoying" to actually enjoy 'something'. Do you relate? if not because its all artsy bull crap then why waste your time period if its all just something to denounce of any credit period? If you really want to be bland and logical then why waste money on something so expensive unlike toilet paper or Q-tips to just be used and then thrown away?
When you were little and didn't like a lot of things beyond yourself like maybe liked your parents/siblings/neighbor/friend's music and then later grew to like it? Maybe with something not so in depth like food, ever grow to like something you hated as a kid? why do you like it now?
You have to have a soul or a brain to not in fact just be bionic.
Your comment on this page is like a strait mane going to a gay strip club and saying "that was terrible!"... obviously its not your kinda thing so why even have an account on kotaku and sit leaving ghost comments until your audition is accepted for something you can throw away like an old band aid! I don't go to Band aids web site and "I don't even use these on my dogs butt hole. who cares about making these things with neosporin!"
Bottom line why are you here if thats all it is to you? #discussion
11/07/09
11/07/09
I try to adhere to what everyone and their uncle seems to have said: "Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt" Though I do fail miserably sometimes ;)
Which is probably why I don't have a star yet... *hmph* I'm lookin' at you Giz, Jalop, Lifehacker, and Kotaku! Hehehe #discussion
11/07/09
I never TRY to be a dick, of course, but sometimes nature takes over. #discussion
11/07/09
11/07/09
11/07/09
11/07/09
11/07/09
quickly can I hopefully stop?
For starters, anyone calling you a troll is fresh off the Kotaku newbie bus if they don't know who you are, but hey time will help them realize your anything-fucking-but a troll. In fact, I think you're the anti-troll. The sooner they realize it the better.
Ahem. Now that I've finished defending you my friend, let me tell you a short story.
Before I went to University, I received a great community college degree, and to get that wonderful piece of paper I had to take a creative writing class. It was harmless at first; we'd write about our dreams and talk about them, write poetry, blah blah blah. And then one day we had an assignment where we had to pick a children's story and re-write it, in a manner of our choosing. So I went home, found a pile of old children's books and picked the first one on the pile. "The Little Engine That Could." It took me about 15 minutes to re-write it.
Next day in class we had to read them in front of the class, and the teacher would ask us questions afterwards:
Teacher: "So what was that about?"
Me: "The Little Engine That Could."
Teacher: "No, I mean what does it
represent? Your Father? Your Mother? Some sort of frustration?"
Me: (I'll embellish it a bit) It doesn't represent anything. It doesn't fucking mean anything. I went home, picked a story, and rewrote it. My intent was that and that only, you stupid hippy."
Teacher: "That's not good, you need to think about this. Why did you write it?"
Me: "I'm going to jump out the fucking window now. I won't be in class tomorrow."
And I wasn't. I dropped that class, and I dropped it quick.
My point is, is I think you are right. (partially, anyway) Sometimes things don't mean a fucking thing, no matter how much someone wants them to have some sort of meaning. And there are those that read waaaayyy too much into things. As is the case with this pretentious drivel of an essay way up above. Sometimes all they are meant for is as a form of escape, or a quick laugh, or to fill a class requirement.
But that's not to say there isn't any benefit in analyzing art of any kind; in fact it can be very necessary. But I'm gonna save that rant for another day, because this post is way too fucking long. Sorry. :(
But yeah, I'm in the same boat. I just wanna enjoy a good story, shoot some dudes and call it a day. Have I thought about games more than that? Yes. Shadow of the Colossus being one of them. But that is probably as far as I go.
Ok, I"m done. lol
edit: Oh yeah, and this is coming from somebody with a degree in visual arts, and in one month a degree in Literature (Japanese no less), so I know all about the importance of analysis, and how to go about it. So please, I don't need anyone to "fill me in". :P