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Denver, 4:46 AM
Thu Dec 3
64 posts in the last 24 hours
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11/25/09
But according to this more girls than ever are being attracted to gaming? My brain circuitry must be on some different level than most females =___=
Maybe its just a younger generation of girls? It seems to me that there is a large generation gap in interests among gamers in general~ Regardless of gender.
11/25/09
Also, I know plenty of girls who have been gaming since they were little. Just mention the Nintendo 64 around most of my female friends and watch them gush with nostalgia.
11/25/09
11/25/09
11/25/09
Don't play stupid.
11/25/09
I've never heard anyone actually segregate a "real" industry, so I was wondering what he meant.
11/25/09
By real game industry, he means the pool of good games.
"its the players, not the games"
If hardcore = good by someones definition than what you're saying is wrong. By playing stupid you would technically be correct though.
11/25/09
To be clear. My initial question had nothing to do with "hardcore", only your irrelevant answer. But, what I meant to say is that calling a game "hardcore" is ridiculous because it is a completely arbitrary designation that can only be based on someone's personal opinion. If you designate a person as hardcore, there are at least ways to categorize somewhat objectively. For example, someone who plays games an average of 10 hours or more per week. I still think it's not a worthwhile designation, but at least then it might mean something.
#speakup
11/26/09
Hardcore is someone that does hardcore things, naturally he has good tastes. It doesn't have to be objective, his definition is clear and I can get a lot of insight into it.
I'm aggressive here but this is progressing slowly and my expectations of you will probably prove correct anyways, no need to slowly test your opinion to see where you stand.
11/26/09
No, it depends on the amount of games that sell. If an innovative title sells well, publishers take more chances with those. If the tried-and-tested sell, that'll be what's funded.
11/26/09
No, it depends on the amount of games that sell. If an innovative title sells well, publishers take more chances with those. If the tried-and-tested sell, that'll be what's funded.
11/27/09
Do you read things? He didn't define hardcore and I didn't ask him about it. He also said hardcore "games", not people. Big difference, which I described. He said nothing about "real games industry" = "good games" and so that is just your assumption, and therefore means nothing. Why do you feel you can speak for him with such authority for what his opinions are? If you have an opinion, then state it, but don't argue on the basis of someone else's opinion. Furthermore, don't presume to know what I think. You seem to think that you can look at the two sentences that ssh83 wrote and know all of his opinions, but I assure you, you don't know all of mine.
Advancement of the industry depends on the amount of good games (Pool of good games) in the industry or at least the "real industry". So a "pool of good games" is the industry.
There are a lot of things wrong with this, but to state it simply, an industry is a complex entity that cannot be defined in the context of a subjective group of products. So, you don't make sense and I still know what ssh83 meant. All you've managed to successfully articulate is insults.
11/27/09
"He said nothing about "real games industry" = "good games" and so that is just your assumption, and therefore means nothing."
Good games, manly games, whatever it's obvious this is about his opinion on what he feels is right or in other words "good".
"an industry is a complex entity that cannot be defined in the context of a subjective group of products."
Keep in mind that wasn't my definition it's his and it's valid. What he's saying is his opinion, it doesn't have to be scientific fact and you're a fool for taking it as the logic on how the industry works and not how it should.
You don't have to agree with what he's saying but you should understand it. I get the feeling your an objectivist and anti-opinions, all of that philosophy would be based on opinions and subjective feelings though which I could argue more in depth if you'd like.
11/27/09
11/30/09
you don't have a sincere misunderstanding you have a negative opinion that makes you question the obvious
you play dumb
you've learned from your nintendo fanboys.
and my expectations of you will probably prove correct anyways
I get the feeling your an objectivist and anti-opinions
I'm not anti-opinion, I'm anti-assumption of others' opinions. If you can't understand that these are all assumptions (and insults leveled at me none-the-less), then there's no point in trying to argue with you on the topics themselves.
ssh83 wrote two sentences, from which you've been able to extract paragraphs while claiming that you've made no assumptions. That is simply ridiculous.
Words with multiple possible interpretations that ssh83 used but did not define:
- hardcore games
- we
- advance
- real games industry
If you say that "he means" something, that is an assumption. It doesn't matter if you think it's obvious, it's an assumption. This is basic stuff.
Sure, I could assume what he meant, and I would probably disagree with it, but his statement was vague and could be interpreted different ways, hence my request for clarification. He has not shown an interest in discussing his opinion, so any further discussion about what his opinion is lacks credibility. The only opinions you can state with credibility are your own, such as this quote:
you're a fool
Yet another insult courtesy of you. classy.
12/02/09
The definitions are obvious to anybody with knowledge of what's going on in the gaming community. Selective logical biased is required for anything and although I did write paragraphs of what he's saying I did not draw much of anything from what he was saying, most of the content was explanation and not opinion besides insults which should be obviously separate from the opinions I can draw from him.
This was slightly vague but I had to lengthen it to make you understand, I'm not making much up, I'm only giving you the most basic of information for the most basic of words. I guess you've been ignoring any logic with "assumptions" and big text.
I've explained this with the most basic logical unopinionated conclusion.
"Too bad the majority of those women wouldn't "waste" money on hardcore games that we want. It does nothing to advance the real game industry."
- hardcore games
- we
- advance
- real games industry
Why would "we" want hardcore games unless we thought they were good or entertaining? Hardcore=good
Now what could we possibly draw from the word "We"? The secret naruto hardcore gamer club? By "We" he means people of similar taste, or does "we" not include him?
"advance", so he says in his post by not "wasting" money on hardcore gaming the industry does not advance, the opposite would be "wasting" money on the hardcore industry and I would assume that advances it.
"Real game industry", now if not "wasting" money on hardcore gaming is the opposite of what "we" want and doesn't advance the "real game industry" I assume the "real game industry" is at least something he favours.
If you can't understand what he's saying that's your own fault, it's your opinion that there isn't enough information to draw a very basic factual understanding of what he's saying which I gave. I gave you a very grand explanation because I thought it'd be more logical not because it was necessary, what he was saying was so straightforward I thought I had to explain the basics of logical thought to you and then go even more basic making the explanation even more lengthy,
You insulted me from the start example:
"ridiculous designation for a game" off to an arrogant opinionated start
"irrelevant answer." insulting
"calling a game "hardcore" is ridiculous because it is a completely arbitrary designation that can only be based on someone's personal opinion." Arrogant, I also find logic and emotion to be innate making opinions not subjective or arbitrary. Your opinion stated as fact.
The rest of what you said stems from a different belief but is still very arrogant.
"Please, enlighten me. What's the "real game industry"?"
This wasn't sarcastic, you really thought he could enlighten you? You show you we're playing dumb by attacking his beliefs rather than being curious about them. A strong disagreement was shown from the very start.
I can't possibly make this any simpler, if you should reply to me again I will read it but most probably not reply back.
12:40 AM
Yes, I'm opinionated, but they're MY opinions. If that makes me arrogant, then I guess that's you're opinion, but I happen to think that it's much more arrogant to presume to speak for someone else.
You may find "irrelevant answer" insulting, but it was a criticism of your writing, not a personal insult or assumption of you. Your other examples of my "insults" are actually my opinions, disagreeing with you is not the same as insulting you, nor is my "arrogance".
hardcore - he could have meant "good" games, or games within certain genres, or games on certain consoles, etc. From all the debates that have taken place on this website alone, the only "obvious" thing is that people have very different definitions of this word.
we - he could have meant gamers that have been playing for a long time, readers of kotaku, male gamers (which makes sense given the article), or gamers that only play the same types of games that he does
advance - he could have meant increasing revenue, increasing public acceptance of the industry, increasing the gamer community, or increasing quality of a select subset of games. each of these have very different implications in the context of what he said.
real games industry - this could mean a range of things, depending on how ssh83 would define the previous terms.
I'm sorry, but "obvious" assumptions are not "factual". They just aren't. AND I disagree with you that they are obvious. That's my opinion.
Bottom line, you are speaking for someone else, which you have no right or credibility to do. That's what I've been saying from the beginning. You have every right to disagree with my opinion on hardcore and to think that I'm arrogant, but you are out of line to presume that you can speak for someone else.
03:00 AM
And your opinions aren't insulting? Who says my insults weren't a direct criticism of your writing?
"Keep in mind that wasn't my definition it's his and it's valid. What he's saying is his opinion, it doesn't have to be scientific fact and you're a fool for taking it as the logic on how the industry works and not how it should."
So I'm ridiculous and irrelevant and those aren't insults but being foolish is? I don't see why my insults aren't just opinions too and "not a personal insult or assumption of you."
"hardcore" I find it to have slightly varying definitions but mostly the same. I find only those who have trouble understanding its definition are those against the word. But either way, if hardcore meant ONLY a specific genre I've never seen it defined so slimly, if it was meant for a specific genre I'm sure he would consider that genre good.
"we" Yes, male gamers because they would typically share the hardcore taste. I'm sure he could find room in his heart for a girl though, negotiable bias seems reasonable these days.
"advance" No, he meant purchasing of good games or specific genre games which by being bought could have many positive effects like the ones you said but mostly would increase profit thereby increase the demand from the industry to make good games. Basic business logic.
If he meant something different he is going to have to restate it, but from what he said this is the basic ideas we can retrieve from it.
11/25/09
11/25/09
While my primary console was PS2 in college, I never owned one...but there was always one around me through friends and roommates. Now that I'm on my own and I have more of a disposable income I bought myself a PS3 and retroly a PS2 and I'm having a blast playing through all the games I missed out during my computer gaming era.
I still play games online though. I love Steam!
I haven't bought any of the modern handhelds though.
So the question is...am I a casual gamer or hardcore?
My range of tastes goes from Bioshock/Halo to Zoo Tycoon/facebook games and a myriad in between.
11/25/09
11/28/09
11/29/09
11/25/09
11/25/09
What do women mean for Kotaku, you ask? Check out the related topics and see for yourself.
And in other news, does that mean that we can officially make fun of dudes using a ladies console?
11/25/09
11/25/09
The implications of this discovery were not exactly welcoming.
11/25/09
11/25/09
11/25/09
11/25/09
11/25/09
It's girls making them.
10% isn't cutting it holmes.
11/25/09
11/25/09
I should play more video games while wearing a flannel jacket.
11/25/09
Dont try and tell me the reason that third party core titles on wii dont sell well is because of bad advertising. It's because your install base just doesnt care for those games. Tell Sega and EA that Madworld and Dead Space Extraction didnt sell well because they arent putting enough money into advertising.
/end rant
11/25/09
Your viewpoint is incredibly narrow-minded. In any art form, there is bound to be a broad spectrum of styles, and a huge variety in the people that appreciate that art form and what styles they prefer. The betrayal that you seem to be so convinced of is imagined on your part.
Working with the examples you've given me, your position is no different than deriding a romantic comedy because it's not Die Hard or The Matrix.
It is irrelevant whether or not "the casual market" would play God of War or Halo instead of Wii Fit. You and all your friends may like those first 2 examples far more than Wii Fit, but it doesn't make you universally right.
Video games don't have to be challenging, long, serious, or violent. Video games don't have to be easy, short, carefree, or peaceful.
They just has to be a visually interactive experiences that run on an electronic device. That's it.
Perhaps you meant something different. When you say Halo, God of War, and MadWorld, I feel like those examples all have the sophistication of the film 300 (I give Dead Space a bit of a pass because it had very good art direction, at the very least).
But for the sake of argument, let's say you meant that the games that appeal to the casual market are simplistic tripe compared to the more well-respected games out there.
If that's the case, your position is still irrelevant. That is the way of the world.
Yes, it would be great if everybody read The Old Man and the Sea or The Brothers Karamazov, but it seems to be in the nature of humanity to prefer less complex works, along the lines of The Da Vinci Code or Twilight. That isn't going to change for a long time.
Besides, I think I'm being quite generous in even giving this hypothetical position any credence at all. At present, few games have any especially deep artistic merit. Most games are escapist, and lack any expression of a particular idea or feeling. Your choices are generally "male power fantasy" or "life simulation", each with a healthy helping of being very reward-based, not unlike an addiction.
I think your belief that Nintendo has been unfaithful and should now be given less respect is unfounded. They've changed what kind of games they want to be represented by, but these new games aren't worse in any meaningful way. They're different, they appeal to different people than the games they used to make, and you aren't one of those people.
Sometimes, businesses have to change what they're doing, for their own sake. Sometimes, you won't like this change. You would do well to get used to this, and not take it personally.
11/25/09
Also consider this parallel to the comic book industry. For years American Super Hero Comics were the standard fair of what made "regular" comic book reading. But than you had the manga industry infiltrate American comic publishing mainstream and look whats starting to outsell our "regular" comic books. And then you realize that something isn't really mainstream...it's niche..it just never had an alternate version to challenge it's dominance in the market place.
This is what is happening in this "casual" vs "hardcore/real" video gaming. It isn't that "Casual" games are niche. It's that you've always tried to make other people play the "hardcore" games when they simply weren't interested. But now that games we ARE interested in are being made you're seeing an expansion of the market to really reflect buying and playing power.
I hope I'm being clear.
11/25/09
11/25/09
We got all yo chicks! Whatchoo gonna do, playa?!
11/25/09
Enjoy our video games?
11/25/09
11/27/09
11/27/09
11/27/09
11/27/09
and you realize I was being sarcastic right back at you?
11/27/09
11/25/09
But are you really allowed to source yourself? Isn't that kinda like saying... "I've done some research on the subject, and I've discovered that I'm 80% awesome and 20% super cool."
11/25/09
11/25/09
Then again, game controllers keep getting more and more absurd as time goes on, I like the Wii alternative for people who dont want to bother with over 12 buttons on a controller(theres an L3 and an R3 on the PS3 controller! you push in the analog sticks!! My GOD!)
It's just too complicated. I wonder if I was 5 now if id be attracted to videogames as i did when i played with my 3 button Genesis controller.
11/25/09
My mom, who only plays Solitaire, couldn't even figure out how to jump properly. My brother's girlfriend was a bit better; she got the idea of jumping down but had trouble processing the idea of momentum leading to longer jumps, so I often had to pick her up and carry her across difficult platforming segments. She was having fun at least, but she hadn't fully grasped the controls yet.
I think it's just that a lot of girls didn't play video games when they were young, so they never developed the same sort of conceptual memory that most boys who grew up in the '80s or '90s did.
11/25/09
I work in a company where I'm the only man (it's a small PR company, with about 20 people).All of them are women. I have an excellent relationship with my co-workers and I respect them a lot, they're very good at everything they do.
But when it comes to technology and stuff that requires coordination, or nerdy subjects, it seems like girls still aren't trained for most of these things. In the 3 months that I'm here, at least 5 of them asked me how to do a simple task like recording a CD on a computer (in 2009!) and this is something that makes me confused. Sure, I'm a guy, I swimmed in technology for all my life, gadgets are natural to me, computers, everything, but to these girls it's like those things are still too-alien.
My girlfriend played games for the most part of her life, waaaay before the Wii, the DS, and these newer systems. Sometimes she has problems controlling dual analogs on FPS's, she couldn't control the character properly on Gears of War, for example. I see that, most times, girls have problems parking cars, something that is so natural to us guys, and it makes me doubt if it is a cultural problem or of it's something biological.
My mother drives for more than 30 years, on a daily basis, she is very good, but she can't park the car on rear inside a building with straight pillars, for example. I've been driving since 2004 (started late) and I do it easily. It's kinda weird.Again, it's just something that I noticed, I don't have anything against and/or biased against girls abilities to do stuff. They are also a lot better than us guys at other tasks.
11/25/09
11/25/09
11/25/09
I dont have an answer as to why, thats why im questioning it, even if this might be the wrong place, since any woman on Kotaku will surely be insulted by me even stating a dislike for women who dont know how to play games when theyre one of the small minority who can.
I only brought it up because like all videogame related things, Kotaku is mostly made up of males. They understand the frustration of teaching ANYONE, not just a woman how to play a game when you can do it so well. Thats just how it goes for anything when you try to teach something.
and I know youre implying it and i dont really care what you think, but im not a dick to girls when they dont understand something. Im annoyed by it, but i dont show it one bit and i dont take it out on anyone by being condescending.
You cant go against assumptions with more assumptions.
#speakup
11/25/09
I don't know if you're a girl or a guy and I DON'T mean to be offensive, but it's something that I see everyday and I'm just commenting about it. I will not give 9000 examples.
But JESUS, I only said that men are more inclined to activities requiring coordination, yeah, maybe it's just something cultural, but generally they're better at it. C'mon, chill...
ps: and for the record, I love playing games with my girlfriend. She generally agrees with what I was trying to say up there...
#speakup
11/25/09
11/25/09
For example, my roommate (who is a girl) was playing SMB Wii with me and was self conscious about her playing ability. She kept on with "so sorry for fucking you up, so sorry I died" and stuff like that. I hear that A LOT with women when they play games with me, and get this I'm a woman,(and known gamer) myself! They all start up with "my brother never let me play, blah blah" and it basically comes around to "guys are annoyed with me when I play, so I try not to play". That's what you sound like when you talk about girls not being able to play. You may try your darndest to not be irritated, but as you said, its frustrating and women can tell you're getting frustrated. In turn, a lot of them get self conscious about playing any video games at all. Therefore, they're not as good.
Also, you might wanna check your logic about asking why women suck at games to a predominately male community. Perhaps you should ask a woman about woman's issues. There's a thought.
11/25/09
11/25/09
What youre asking is that i should ask women to prove me wrong, i think that's pretty done even before i ask it. everyone is defensive. For this little gaming stereotype, I feel that asking a male would be a more honest answer than asking a woman. Im not asking about sex advice or about getting a gift for someone, im asking people to give their own experiences. The fact that so many males have similar stories worries me and makes me feel at ease at the same time.
I agree that stereotypes arent a good way to live your life, I dont think i was being stereotypical(maybe about the whole woman think games are toys thing i was being stereotypical)
about all the women that ive met who dont know or want to learn how to play videogames. we live by our experiences, but we cant let them blind us. Im not afraid of black people because theres always a black man on Fox news committing a crime, im not going to stop trying to get a job that seems that a white man would get a lot easier, and im not going to stop trying to let girls play games because i couldnt teach the ones i tried to in the past.
Theres more things to do than living by stereotypes or getting defensive about them.
Ive also accepted the fact that what i say isnt going to please everyone.
Its like dying, its gonna happen. You just deal with it.
#speakup
11/25/09
Also, you weren't exactly attacked. It was just pointed out that you're being extremely generalized in your view, and basing it only on your personal experiences, and therefore biases. Your conclusions aren't based on anything other than your own assumptions. You don't know any of that is "true" in any objective sense whatsoever.
Also, the "my girlfriend/mom/girl friends" answer is, just so you know, a very common way of excusing problematic conclusions and assumptions. Every woman you know could agree with you and it doesn't actually make it true.
11/25/09
11/25/09
And about "making it true", there is no absolute truth. Everyone has a different truth, so what's true and what isn't is generally B.S.
#speakup
11/25/09
Also, are they actually suggesting that you should only ask women about sex or gift giving and not their personal experiences? Are women's personal experiences as gamers not relevant? The amount of bias is staggering.
Thank you, however, for trying. :}
11/25/09
I'M THE ONLY MAN IN MY OFFICE, I LOVE MY BOSSES, I LOVE MY CO-WORKERS. RE-READ MY POST...
God the internet sucks, the current world sucks, you say an opinion, or something you saw, and you're immediately disregarded and humiliated. I was responding to Fernando Solano's post and he was telling his truth, I told my "truth" and you told your truth. I have NO BIAS against women, are we cool now Ms. Feminist?
ps: nworobes said what I was trying to say. The spatial thing, I read it on a lot of studies concerning men and women. The intelligence is the same, but some capabilities are different, generally. The same studies say that women are far better when it comes to understanding feelings and with learning languages.
11/25/09
It simply isn't proof of anything. The reason "my girlfriend agrees with me" is not a good answer for something is that it implies, whether you intended to or not, that because one woman (or several) agree with it, then it makes your generalization and bias okay. It actually doesn't.
I think you mean well, and I think you're trying to understand what you see as differences and confusing, conflicting information.
But it's not really a good idea to get condescending with other posters just because they disagree with you (not me, but Alexis) and "Ms. Feminist" is really should not be used as a derogatory term. It undermines your assertion that you're just trying to figure this out, and makes it look like you really don't care that you might be making really problematic statements.
11/25/09
Again, you made a reference to a study that is commonly used to support stereotypes and can be disproven easily, but rather than actually use facts, you just slap a "i read it a lot" moniker on it and called it a day.
And, do you know what a bias is? Because when you start throwing around stereotypes based on the very limited number of women in your life, that's a form of being biased. The "I totally have (blank) friends" argument doesn't give you a handle on their behavior.
@tiredfairy I know, I know, but I feel like I should at least try.
11/25/09
She called me Mr. Generalization and I can't come up with a stupid nickname too? What kind of world do we live in?
#speakup
11/25/09
#speakup
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