What the fuck is developers problem with the COMMUNITY hosting fucking servers with their own money to improve their own gaming experience? You don't have to do a damn thing, you just enable hosted servers, make a server browser and thats it. No one gets pissed off. #idsoftware
@qwerty: P2P and server-based network code are entirely different animals. In order to allow server-based play as a secondary option, they would basically need to redo most of the netcode. It's not nearly as simple as flipping a switch. #idsoftware
@Toasticus: And that takes a heck of alot of time and money. Which if they are anticipating a low return on investment for the PC version, is kind of justified in a business sense. Especially when developing for the consoles first and then PC second.
However giving an excuse that dedicated servers are relics as the reason is pretty lame. They should just come out and be honest that they don't think it's going to be financially viable for them to add the extra code. At least they wouldn't be looking like IW at the moment. #idsoftware
@Toasticus: Strong though, that id is building this engine to be sold. So I think they would include both for the people buying the engine that want dedicated servers.
On the other hand, I'm still pretty trusting that whatever Carmack does will work. He might not be the most original when it comes to story etc, but he is usually pretty anal about making it work. #idsoftware
@Mctittles: From what I understand, the base for dedicated server netcode isn't a difficult feature to add on the engine side of things. Adding and testing all the specific hookups to game logic that varies from game to game is where most of the work goes toward, so that's why implementing a dedicated server system in Rage wouldn't be very useful in marketing Tech 5. Now, all the base netcode for matchmaking is a different issue, where showing off the implementation for a specific title would be very useful because the matchmaking system itself will vary less from title to title than all the game logic integration. #idsoftware
@Toasticus: The server system in MW2 isn't P2P, its the same model. You have a host for the game that sends the info to all the other games. The only difference between that and a dedicated server is that a dedicated server doesn't play the game at the same time, it only runs it. There are differences outside of the actual game, a dedicated server system requires a server browser, but ingame it would operate almost entirely the same way. A true P2P system has no central hosts at all, but that is not what MW2 is using. In fact I don't think there is a single true P2P multiplayer game out there, P2P environments wouldn't handle things well.
@Toasticus: So in other words they're getting lazy? Why are gamers starting to pay for many developers' half assed efforts to make money, I mean make games...enjoy lower sales because of it you dumbasses. #idsoftware
@tshack: You have to realize these are businesses, not groups of hobbyists. They decide what are the most important things to their product and absolutely bust their asses trying to make those things as polished and impressive as possible. Trying not to spread your company thin by adding on every possible feature under the sun, ending up with a lot of mediocrity instead of a decent amount of awesome, is just smart management.
So no, they aren't lazy. They might have misjudged the value of the things they prioritized, but it's not like they're taking a couple of extra weeks vacation because they're not including a certain feature.
If you think people can get jobs at top-tier developers and be lazy, you're welcome to try. The competition for joining this kind of developer is insane. #idsoftware
@avconsumer2: Out of interest, though I know of the original origin of "Et tu Brute?" but theres been a recent surge of it's use in the IWnet n id articles, and I'm just wondering if this image was the one that's spawned it's resurgence. #idsoftware
@deanbmmv: People are taking video game news too seriously, and feel backstabbed. One person used the phrase and felt clever, and after skimming over it, lots of other people are getting the idea to use the phrase due to their subconscious being unoriginal pricks. #idsoftware
@deanbmmv: great minds think alike. Love yer work sir. ;)
Though I hadn't seen it yet (and upon scrolling down, was already used), the phrase occurred to me originally at the beginning of the IW fiasco. #idsoftware
@avconsumer2: [www.flickr.com] more where that comes form (quite alot of uncharted 2 pics though :P)
Oh and why hadn't I hearted you yet, I've seen you commenting alot championing the PC cause. #idsoftware
@deanbmmv: Yeah... the whole dedi-gate severely depresses me. As a previous tech support rep for Softdisk's main ISP competitor in the Shreveport area (where Carmack kicked off his career,) before big telecom jumped on the ISP wagon... this is hitting way too close to home at this point. Just wish I could do more. You may have seen one of my previous posts, but according to ATVI's latest SEC filing, for the last 9 months "PC and other" (MMORPG's not included obviously) revenue accounted for 4% of total. Also @ 4%... their PS2 offerings. Betting we'll be lucky to even be offered a port of the next iteration. /rantoff #idsoftware
@avconsumer2: Activsion are biting their own hands off though in the PC industry.
Bioware churning in mega bucks on PC, EA too, which they learnt with Spore that PC users bite back, Bioware, Valve, Betsheda etc etc So really ATVI shouldn't expect much if they carry on fucking over PC users.
And good riddance tbh, ATVI really need a major financial kick up the ass. #idsoftware
@deanbmmv: Completely agree. Yeah, probably gonna buy 2 copies of the next DICE title... just on principle. I think in the end they'll (atvi) regret it, no idea when "the end" will be though. :P #idsoftware
Alright Mr Carmack, I respect your opinion very highly and admire all that you have done and continue to do not only in gaming but also in the areospace industry. Maybe I'm just an ignorant forum poster, but I would like you to spell out for me or just a bullet list of the pros and cons of dedicated server vs peer to peer multiplayer.
I just cannot come up with a compelling argument how p2p is better than a dedicated server experience.
Just curious. Now's you chance - CONVINCE ME. Seriously I want to know how p2p is better than a dedicated server.
I should qualify my post - how is it better for me the gamer and not just you the dev/publisher.
@I_Like_TDs: With Dedicated servers they never have to spend a dime on the running of the server. Kotaku TF2 server costs us $20 a month to run, not Valve (or Kotaku for that matter...)
Whereas with P2P matchmaking they do need a server running the service to match makes folks n tie em off with each other. And once they no longer feel like running the mathcmaking service, they turn off the servers and Rage's online no longer works. Whereas I'd wager Quake III still has a fair few servers up n running and that game is 10 years old. Some dedicated servers outlive the companies that made them. #idsoftware
@deanbmmv: You mean the option of letting people run their own servers.
I read this as iD won't be running any servers. i do admit that it should be optional for people who want to have their own.
And running a matchmaking server akes even less horsepower than a dedicated server, so I won't even go into that argument. #idsoftware
@I_Like_TDs: Them running a matchmaking service takes more effort for them than letting the community organise servers themselves.
They have to keep it running, code the algorithm, put up with complaints for when it goes down.
As soon as IWnet goes down for just a few hours, IW will get torn apart.
But yes, all issues would be solved if they just allowed the choice. COD4 you had the choice of playing matchmaking on consoles, or dedicated on PC, now its matchmaking on console or matchmaking on PC.
It'd be like going into a voting booth last November n having
@I_Like_TDs: I guess in one way it shows that gaming is no longer the democracy it once was, where gamers would choose what lived and died, and could influence their games.
Now its a dictatorship where we are told how to play our games and that we will like them. #idsoftware
@I_Like_TDs: Mw1 sold roughly 500,000 units on PC ( this is retail, no figures for DD like Steam)
If the numbers are drastically less for MW2, then the PC masses have spoken. #idsoftware
@I_Like_TDs: Errrm.
500,000 is alot. that's $25million+ just on retail units alone.
(bear in mind my numbers are form an article 4 months after MW's release, been a year on top of that)
It's not lucky that PC gamers are being thrown a bone, its a fucking disgrace. #idsoftware
@I_Like_TDs: Errm...no.
The writing on the wall says you may want to look to your calculator again.
Also just because consoles outsell PC doesn't mean PC is over. Just means that consoles are getting more folks on em. Which has been happening since 5th gen when PS1 broke the 100million barrier.
When PC games start selling sub-20K units for AAA games, then come back n tell me the PC industry is dead. #idsoftware
@I_Like_TDs: said :"His company gets to put more money into games instead of running servers?...We all know ActiBlizzard is in it to monetize every time you think about a video game"
See the money angle still doesn't make sense. Even from the dev publisher side. Unless they are afraid of not getting a basic return on the investment it would take for the PC version. (ie piracy)
If they have a match making service in place, they have to pay to run that infrastructure that all the players will be tied to. That takes money every month to pay for. It's not like this game is a subscription based games like WoW. If they keep the game running for years it might actually cost them MORE than developing a dedicated server.
@deanbmmv: What about Obama/Obama? Just thought I would ask xD
Also, good points...I don't play these games on the PC but as a independent developer I am seeing the market being segmented between the folks that are active PC supporters and those who could really care less and just want to shoot stuff.
In your estimation, do you see these companies hearing the cries of the people and doing something about it? Sorry you folks are dealing with this blasphemy!! #idsoftware
@Duuuuuuude: Oh, I'm not American so don't really want to go with the whole politics, just pulled the one that people didn't vote for.
I'm thinking ATVI won't listen.
The fact that as the petion ticks over to 180K pc gamers wanting dedicated servers on MW2 Bowling boasts that they could turn to 60K twitter subscribers to ask what they wanted in the game just shows that they have stuck their fingers in their ears to PC.
However there are still many developers n publishers that support PC.
And they will listen to PC users, it's such a flexible platform that they can try out so many things that get suggested. And thankfully developers recognise that. I think id will probs change their mind on the dedicated servers, I'm hoping they are saying its great IW are going first beacuase they want to see the sales figures n see hopw mch non-dedi's affects it. #idsoftware
@deanbmmv: Haha, I was only giving you a hard time about the political commentary :) I tend to keep that out of the bastion of positivity (mostly) that is Kotaku!
In my estimation, and like I had said before, it appears the market is turning to the "casual" audience. It's a severe underestimation of how the PC gamer works, being that most of the time they do a lot of work with the game and figure out glitches, easter eggs, work arounds, etc. All that is sort of besides the point at hand, but still relevant for limiting them the choice of simply using a prefered "friendly" server of their liking. I appreciate the fact that the PC gamers are so vigorous with this whereas in my case I can't worry too much about that stuff, as the console gaming environment is pretty much pre-determined by the service provider (Microsoft in my case).
I strongly believe that with a relatively open platform like the PC it should be the end user that dictates how the game will be played. This is a huge step backwards by not allowing the PC users to interface as they normally would with dedicated servers. Thanks for your input and the comment was well said on your part. Good luck to the petitioners :) #idsoftware
If dedicated servers are a "relic of PC gaming's early days" then what the hell is matchmaking? When I bought Halo 3 (which is the first FPS I played online on a console) I thought the matchmaking was some kind of bad joke and that developers would realize what a mistake it was. But this is starting to get ridiculous.
How is waiting 5 minutes between each match an improvement? Especially when there's a risk you'll end up with somebody with crap ping, or on a map that you hate. #idsoftware
"Carmack, Variety said, indicated the felt the servers are a relic of PC gaming's early days."
There are many relics related to PC Gaming but dedicated servers are not one of the negatives. It now seems like John Carmack is a relic of pcgaming who no longer understands his audience.
We can still enjoy ancient (relic) ID games because of dedicated servers and community support and only the die hards pay to keep these up for us. How much longevity will Rage have without the pc gaming community propping it up?
Anyway, enough ranting, anyone fancy a game of Q3: Urban Terror on a dedi?
@Dirkfart Faeclefunk: Sadly, I doubt that they care too much about longevity as a large large majority of the sales of a game come in it's first month. How many people are still paying any money to get those old games that have longevity? I doubt that longevity helps thier company much unfortunately. #idsoftware
@Daniel @ playreadwrite.blogspot.com: It definitely seems to have reached the level of -gateness now. I think dedicated-gate and server-gate are too obvious though. We need to deliberate long and hard on what name this momentous -gate will go down in history as. #idsoftware
@MyLittlePwny: Console-first gamers do come across as a little selfish and ignorant. ("I look forward to seeing their choice platform die a slow, agonizing death.") #idsoftware
meh id... of all developers i didnt think id would fall to this same shit
but lets face it, both as a developer and as a publisher id have not released a good game in years.... i have zero interest in "Rage"... hell i didnt even know it had multiplayer. likely wouldn't have bought it anyway but this is still saddening news as a whole
why the hell haven't dev's other than DICE come out and said they will keep doing dedicated servers (im talking to you Valve!) #idsoftware
@cyruss: I think Valve is already on the matchmaking bandwagon. L4D uses only the absolutely necessary dedicated server part and makes it difficult to join a dedicated server in the traditional way.
It's sad to say, but it may be that Team Fortress 2 was the last great FPS to play in the traditional way from Valve. #idsoftware
@Kualtek: i fear this too.... but at least Valve didnt pull it completely and there is an option for dedicated servers... but as you said its not in a traditional way
i really don't see why the two can't co-exist. A "Quick match" option in menu for matchmaking, and an "Advanced" option in menu to pull up a server browser - not really rocket science... i think if they did that though they'd realise that the huge % of PC players just want the advanced option #idsoftware
@cyruss: It's hard to figure out why all these companies want dedicated servers to die out. I have to think that if we are beholden to their own system, we will be more likely to jump at the next year game for another $50 or $60. This is more profitable to them than creating a lasting game. #idsoftware
Frankly, the biggest problem with all of this is they're treating the PC community like they're idiots. It's insulting. It isn't even like being treated as second class citizens, more that they've positioned things like we're all a bunch of idiots.
We're not a bunch of loons; we know how the back end of gaming works on a technical level. Often times the users, through various tweaks, make changes that ultimately makes the game better and that gets adopted officially. It's one thing to piss off an idiot; it's another thing to piss off someone that's in the know.
Who knows though, maybe it's all just a ploy to kill PC gaming once and for all? None of this will affect piracy. There is a good chance piracy will jump on PC because the users that hadn't given in feel cheated by the developers. Users will crack the game and build their own dedicated servers separate from whatever service is put in place complete with every feature that they're saying you could only get with their system.
Jeez. Way to encourage piracy industry. #idsoftware
@Mamba the Madvillain: We're not saying piracy is a good thing. We're saying that's simply what's going to happen. People don't want to pay $60 bucks - $10 more than the standard and in some countries this equals to twice the price of other AAA titles being released - for what's likely to be a relatively short SP campaign and gimped multiplayer. The biggest reason to buy MW vs. pirating it is to play on legit servers, as cracked servers are known to be major cesspools. Now that MP is no longer a pull, why would they buy the game? BL, DA, L4D2, etc. all cost less and offer more playability since there isn't any longer a MP pull in MW2. People still want the SP campaign, but they sure as hell aren't going to pay $50 + $10 extra over other games in the US for it when there's better out there. This is encouraging piracy rather than curbing it.
IW's response really do read like an insult to any even semi-tech savvy gamer. When you're touting K+M controls, graphics options, and in-game text chat as what defines the PC version and makes it something other than a port, you're an idiot. Yet that's all the devs could give us.
PC gamers know how to tweak their games of choice in order to improve them, and we already understand the systems their trying to put it. We know what matchmaking is, we used that in the 90s for God's sake. This isn't a progression, it's straight up regression. If you're doing this because it gives you a way to force DLC charges, future game migrations/transitions, or curb pirate population online, then say so. Don't try to feed us obvious lies. Have the balls to tell us like it is. We'll still hate you for your decisions, but at the very least we'll still be able to respect you for being honest with us. #idsoftware
@omgwtflolbbl: why should they be honest to you? you are no longer the market for ANYTHING outside of The Sims and WoW. It's a pointless market for developers when most of their profits don't come from you. No dedicated servers? good, now they don't have to pay to keep them up. You are lucky they are even making the game for PC at this point, stop complaining about what it does and doesn't have. #idsoftware
@Shawnrw222: Most people want dedicated servers so they can pay to host them themselves. Not so that the company can pay for them. The users own and pay for their own servers, not the company. If they allowed PC users to have their own servers without hosting their own official ones, it'd all be unicorns and rainbows. PCs are still the main market for RTSes and the only reason it isn't the main market for FPSes is because people are too daft to understand that putting together is nowhere near as difficult or expensive as people pretend it is.
Why are you defending a company for stripping features away? I can't even begin to understand this. In IW's case, these are all features in the original MW that they went OUT OF THEIR WAY to remove, despite the fact they knew we'd be unhappy with these changes. They even stated that developing IWnet cost them quite a bit, so money wasn't an issue.
At this rate they might as well not make it for the PC. They're already saying they'll provide minimal support for it, so why go out of your way to piss off your customers?
And finally: "why should they be honest to you?"
Really. Why should a company be honest with us. That makes you sound like a complete sheep. It's okay, lie to us, I'll buy your product anyways and love you for lying to us! #idsoftware
@Shawnrw222: You don't know what a dedicated server is. The system that MW2 will use is the system that will cost IW/ActiBlizzard money to maintain, dedicated servers would not. Read up before you speak on subjects you know little to nothing about. #idsoftware
John Carmack waited. The lights above him blinked and sparked out of the air. There
were consoles in the base. He didn't see them, but had expected them now for years.
His warnings to PC Gamers were not listenend to and now it was too late. Far too late
for now, anyway.
John was a programmer for fourteen years. When he was young he watched the
spaceships and he said to dad "I want to program the games daddy."
Dad said "No! You will BE KILL BY CONSOLES"
There was a time when he believed him. Then as he got oldered he stopped. But now in
the convention floor of the E3 he knew there were consoles.
"This is PC Gamers" the radio crackered. "You must fight the consoles!"
So John gotted his compiler and wrote up the Rage engine.
"HE GOING TO KILL US" said the consoles.
"I will shoot at him" said the 360 and he fired the RROD missiles. John
compiled at him and tried to blew him up. But then the ceiling fell and they were
trapped and not able to compete.
"No! I must kill the consoles" he shouted
The radio said "No, John. You are the consoles"
And then John was ditching dedicated servers. #idsoftware
While I was somewhat curious about this title it's nice to know in advance that I can save myself some money picking this one up. I quite honestly did not really care about the multiplayer but the minute you start taking things away using excuses and platitudes for reasons then I see no reason to reward it with money.
And Mr. Carmack, while I do respect what you have done for the PC community as a whole and your skills it is quite apparent that you have lost touch with the community that paid for the seat you are sitting in. Calling dedicated server support "a relic of PC gaming's early days" while you gush over P2P hosting in the face of bandwith caps and other restrictions from ISP's shows what crowd you are kissing up to.
As for the rest of you who use consoles I really do not have any anger for you. If anything, I'd like to say I'm sorry that the PC community did not support you at the beginning when they started to force you to accept to pay for content. I'm even more sorry for the fact that none of you will ever know what online multiplayer was like, and how fun it was to hang out with friends and test your skills against strangers, before things like Xbox Live even existed.
Heck, maybe you're right in that it's time for gamers like us who lives in those days to give it up and shut up. But for us it's hard to see something that we enjoyed for a long time, heck longer than even some of you have been on this Earth, just slowly go from a community full of modders who spent hours diving into various servers into a lobotomized chatroom that happens to also let you play a game. #idsoftware
what's the difference between a dedicated server and an undedicated server?
did the undedicated server just drop out of school or something? #idsoftware
@Mad as a Hatter: A dedicated server is a machine that is running the server software for the game to the exclusion of all else.
It means significantly less lag, less chance of getting booted from a game because of a timeout, less chance of a server crash. Additionally, these servers cost next to nothing to developers/publishers beyond developing the server software and maybe running a handful as most are run by players who rent one off somewhere like Typefrag.com
It also leads to (generally) better moderation and cheat prevention as cheats/exploits/hacks that are (currently) undetectable by automated software can be detected by a human moderator. #idsoftware
@Mad as a Hatter: Oh, additionally, if you're in a clan - which is a HUGE part of the pc gaming community structure - it's nice to have your own server for practicing as a team and hosting scrims with rival clans. So it's basically like a sports team having its own stadium. #idsoftware
@Koztah: o ok that's kinda what i thought. so an example of a dedicated server would be like most valve games ie CSS Killing Floor etc. so then what isn't a dedicated server? can't think of any #idsoftware
@Mad as a Hatter: A non-dedicated server would imply the machine is running multiple applications or instances. So, you have 4-5 games running concurrently on the same server, or the server is being used for something else as well. P2P gaming is also non-dedicated (i.e. one of the players is the host). #idsoftware
A non-dedicated server is basically what you have going on in the PC version of CoD4, Gears of War, or Halo 3. It's the system that has become profitable and successful on console. We don't want it. #idsoftware
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However giving an excuse that dedicated servers are relics as the reason is pretty lame. They should just come out and be honest that they don't think it's going to be financially viable for them to add the extra code. At least they wouldn't be looking like IW at the moment. #idsoftware
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On the other hand, I'm still pretty trusting that whatever Carmack does will work. He might not be the most original when it comes to story etc, but he is usually pretty anal about making it work. #idsoftware
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So no, they aren't lazy. They might have misjudged the value of the things they prioritized, but it's not like they're taking a couple of extra weeks vacation because they're not including a certain feature.
If you think people can get jobs at top-tier developers and be lazy, you're welcome to try. The competition for joining this kind of developer is insane. #idsoftware
11/06/09
"We'll see how it works out for everyone else.
If you don't give a fuck about your player base - works out great!! That much is clear already!! :D #idsoftware
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@avconsumer2: Out of interest, though I know of the original origin of "Et tu Brute?" but theres been a recent surge of it's use in the IWnet n id articles, and I'm just wondering if this image was the one that's spawned it's resurgence. #idsoftware
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That image is made be me. Nice to know I sparked a trend :P #idsoftware
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Though I hadn't seen it yet (and upon scrolling down, was already used), the phrase occurred to me originally at the beginning of the IW fiasco. #idsoftware
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Oh and why hadn't I hearted you yet, I've seen you commenting alot championing the PC cause. #idsoftware
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Bioware churning in mega bucks on PC, EA too, which they learnt with Spore that PC users bite back, Bioware, Valve, Betsheda etc etc So really ATVI shouldn't expect much if they carry on fucking over PC users.
And good riddance tbh, ATVI really need a major financial kick up the ass. #idsoftware
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I just cannot come up with a compelling argument how p2p is better than a dedicated server experience.
Just curious. Now's you chance - CONVINCE ME. Seriously I want to know how p2p is better than a dedicated server.
I should qualify my post - how is it better for me the gamer and not just you the dev/publisher.
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I should ad that in THIS case, I think Carmack gets the benefit of the doubt.
We all know ActiBlizzard is in it to monetize every time you think about a video game. #idsoftware
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Whereas with P2P matchmaking they do need a server running the service to match makes folks n tie em off with each other. And once they no longer feel like running the mathcmaking service, they turn off the servers and Rage's online no longer works. Whereas I'd wager Quake III still has a fair few servers up n running and that game is 10 years old. Some dedicated servers outlive the companies that made them. #idsoftware
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I read this as iD won't be running any servers. i do admit that it should be optional for people who want to have their own.
And running a matchmaking server akes even less horsepower than a dedicated server, so I won't even go into that argument. #idsoftware
11/06/09
They have to keep it running, code the algorithm, put up with complaints for when it goes down.
As soon as IWnet goes down for just a few hours, IW will get torn apart.
But yes, all issues would be solved if they just allowed the choice. COD4 you had the choice of playing matchmaking on consoles, or dedicated on PC, now its matchmaking on console or matchmaking on PC.
It'd be like going into a voting booth last November n having
[] McCain
[] McCain #idsoftware
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Now its a dictatorship where we are told how to play our games and that we will like them. #idsoftware
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We all know this is probably one of the very few franchises that can dictate to gamers, instead of the other way around. #idsoftware
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If the numbers are drastically less for MW2, then the PC masses have spoken. #idsoftware
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I know it's a shitty thing to say, but at this point PC gamers are lucky they are still thrown a bone.
I'm not saying it's fair. Just the reality. #idsoftware
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500,000 is alot. that's $25million+ just on retail units alone.
(bear in mind my numbers are form an article 4 months after MW's release, been a year on top of that)
It's not lucky that PC gamers are being thrown a bone, its a fucking disgrace. #idsoftware
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And the consoles combined for what...last I looked it was like 9.5 million.
So the PC accounted fora half a percent.
The writing has been on the wall for a while. #idsoftware
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The writing on the wall says you may want to look to your calculator again.
Also just because consoles outsell PC doesn't mean PC is over. Just means that consoles are getting more folks on em. Which has been happening since 5th gen when PS1 broke the 100million barrier.
When PC games start selling sub-20K units for AAA games, then come back n tell me the PC industry is dead. #idsoftware
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See the money angle still doesn't make sense. Even from the dev publisher side. Unless they are afraid of not getting a basic return on the investment it would take for the PC version. (ie piracy)
If they have a match making service in place, they have to pay to run that infrastructure that all the players will be tied to. That takes money every month to pay for. It's not like this game is a subscription based games like WoW. If they keep the game running for years it might actually cost them MORE than developing a dedicated server.
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Also, good points...I don't play these games on the PC but as a independent developer I am seeing the market being segmented between the folks that are active PC supporters and those who could really care less and just want to shoot stuff.
In your estimation, do you see these companies hearing the cries of the people and doing something about it? Sorry you folks are dealing with this blasphemy!! #idsoftware
11/06/09
I'm thinking ATVI won't listen.
The fact that as the petion ticks over to 180K pc gamers wanting dedicated servers on MW2 Bowling boasts that they could turn to 60K twitter subscribers to ask what they wanted in the game just shows that they have stuck their fingers in their ears to PC.
However there are still many developers n publishers that support PC.
And they will listen to PC users, it's such a flexible platform that they can try out so many things that get suggested. And thankfully developers recognise that. I think id will probs change their mind on the dedicated servers, I'm hoping they are saying its great IW are going first beacuase they want to see the sales figures n see hopw mch non-dedi's affects it. #idsoftware
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In my estimation, and like I had said before, it appears the market is turning to the "casual" audience. It's a severe underestimation of how the PC gamer works, being that most of the time they do a lot of work with the game and figure out glitches, easter eggs, work arounds, etc. All that is sort of besides the point at hand, but still relevant for limiting them the choice of simply using a prefered "friendly" server of their liking. I appreciate the fact that the PC gamers are so vigorous with this whereas in my case I can't worry too much about that stuff, as the console gaming environment is pretty much pre-determined by the service provider (Microsoft in my case).
I strongly believe that with a relatively open platform like the PC it should be the end user that dictates how the game will be played. This is a huge step backwards by not allowing the PC users to interface as they normally would with dedicated servers. Thanks for your input and the comment was well said on your part. Good luck to the petitioners :) #idsoftware
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How is waiting 5 minutes between each match an improvement? Especially when there's a risk you'll end up with somebody with crap ping, or on a map that you hate. #idsoftware
11/06/09
There are many relics related to PC Gaming but dedicated servers are not one of the negatives. It now seems like John Carmack is a relic of pcgaming who no longer understands his audience.
We can still enjoy ancient (relic) ID games because of dedicated servers and community support and only the die hards pay to keep these up for us. How much longevity will Rage have without the pc gaming community propping it up?
Anyway, enough ranting, anyone fancy a game of Q3: Urban Terror on a dedi?
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Also means you can have long tail sales. #idsoftware
11/06/09
"The great thing is we won’t have to be a pioneer on that"
That's not great id.... #idsoftware
11/06/09
Well, Id hasn't inovated in a very, very long time. So it's comfortable ground for them. #idsoftware
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I look forward to seeing their choice platform die a slow, agonizing death. #idsoftware
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copy+paste=fail. #idsoftware
11/05/09
but lets face it, both as a developer and as a publisher id have not released a good game in years.... i have zero interest in "Rage"... hell i didnt even know it had multiplayer. likely wouldn't have bought it anyway but this is still saddening news as a whole
why the hell haven't dev's other than DICE come out and said they will keep doing dedicated servers (im talking to you Valve!) #idsoftware
11/06/09
It's sad to say, but it may be that Team Fortress 2 was the last great FPS to play in the traditional way from Valve. #idsoftware
11/06/09
i really don't see why the two can't co-exist. A "Quick match" option in menu for matchmaking, and an "Advanced" option in menu to pull up a server browser - not really rocket science... i think if they did that though they'd realise that the huge % of PC players just want the advanced option #idsoftware
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11/05/09
We're not a bunch of loons; we know how the back end of gaming works on a technical level. Often times the users, through various tweaks, make changes that ultimately makes the game better and that gets adopted officially. It's one thing to piss off an idiot; it's another thing to piss off someone that's in the know.
Who knows though, maybe it's all just a ploy to kill PC gaming once and for all? None of this will affect piracy. There is a good chance piracy will jump on PC because the users that hadn't given in feel cheated by the developers. Users will crack the game and build their own dedicated servers separate from whatever service is put in place complete with every feature that they're saying you could only get with their system.
Jeez. Way to encourage piracy industry. #idsoftware
11/05/09
11/05/09
IW's response really do read like an insult to any even semi-tech savvy gamer. When you're touting K+M controls, graphics options, and in-game text chat as what defines the PC version and makes it something other than a port, you're an idiot. Yet that's all the devs could give us.
PC gamers know how to tweak their games of choice in order to improve them, and we already understand the systems their trying to put it. We know what matchmaking is, we used that in the 90s for God's sake. This isn't a progression, it's straight up regression. If you're doing this because it gives you a way to force DLC charges, future game migrations/transitions, or curb pirate population online, then say so. Don't try to feed us obvious lies. Have the balls to tell us like it is. We'll still hate you for your decisions, but at the very least we'll still be able to respect you for being honest with us. #idsoftware
11/05/09
<3
Also Mamba, I think you misunderstood what the poor guy was saying lol. Re-think about that a bit. #idsoftware
11/05/09
11/06/09
Why are you defending a company for stripping features away? I can't even begin to understand this. In IW's case, these are all features in the original MW that they went OUT OF THEIR WAY to remove, despite the fact they knew we'd be unhappy with these changes. They even stated that developing IWnet cost them quite a bit, so money wasn't an issue.
At this rate they might as well not make it for the PC. They're already saying they'll provide minimal support for it, so why go out of your way to piss off your customers?
And finally: "why should they be honest to you?"
Really. Why should a company be honest with us. That makes you sound like a complete sheep. It's okay, lie to us, I'll buy your product anyways and love you for lying to us! #idsoftware
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11/05/09
were consoles in the base. He didn't see them, but had expected them now for years.
His warnings to PC Gamers were not listenend to and now it was too late. Far too late
for now, anyway.
John was a programmer for fourteen years. When he was young he watched the
spaceships and he said to dad "I want to program the games daddy."
Dad said "No! You will BE KILL BY CONSOLES"
There was a time when he believed him. Then as he got oldered he stopped. But now in
the convention floor of the E3 he knew there were consoles.
"This is PC Gamers" the radio crackered. "You must fight the consoles!"
So John gotted his compiler and wrote up the Rage engine.
"HE GOING TO KILL US" said the consoles.
"I will shoot at him" said the 360 and he fired the RROD missiles. John
compiled at him and tried to blew him up. But then the ceiling fell and they were
trapped and not able to compete.
"No! I must kill the consoles" he shouted
The radio said "No, John. You are the consoles"
And then John was ditching dedicated servers. #idsoftware
11/05/09
And Mr. Carmack, while I do respect what you have done for the PC community as a whole and your skills it is quite apparent that you have lost touch with the community that paid for the seat you are sitting in. Calling dedicated server support "a relic of PC gaming's early days" while you gush over P2P hosting in the face of bandwith caps and other restrictions from ISP's shows what crowd you are kissing up to.
As for the rest of you who use consoles I really do not have any anger for you. If anything, I'd like to say I'm sorry that the PC community did not support you at the beginning when they started to force you to accept to pay for content. I'm even more sorry for the fact that none of you will ever know what online multiplayer was like, and how fun it was to hang out with friends and test your skills against strangers, before things like Xbox Live even existed.
Heck, maybe you're right in that it's time for gamers like us who lives in those days to give it up and shut up. But for us it's hard to see something that we enjoyed for a long time, heck longer than even some of you have been on this Earth, just slowly go from a community full of modders who spent hours diving into various servers into a lobotomized chatroom that happens to also let you play a game. #idsoftware
11/05/09
what's the difference between a dedicated server and an undedicated server?
did the undedicated server just drop out of school or something? #idsoftware
11/05/09
It means significantly less lag, less chance of getting booted from a game because of a timeout, less chance of a server crash. Additionally, these servers cost next to nothing to developers/publishers beyond developing the server software and maybe running a handful as most are run by players who rent one off somewhere like Typefrag.com
It also leads to (generally) better moderation and cheat prevention as cheats/exploits/hacks that are (currently) undetectable by automated software can be detected by a human moderator. #idsoftware
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A non-dedicated server is basically what you have going on in the PC version of CoD4, Gears of War, or Halo 3. It's the system that has become profitable and successful on console. We don't want it. #idsoftware
11/05/09
[www.youtube.com]
"This is just the beginning. Soon other Games will follow suit..." -Hitler #idsoftware