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Shigeru Miyamoto Sees "Nothing Wrong" With HD Graphics
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Boom-Chicka-Ah: Here to Create a Star Commenter Empire
10/16/09

In reply to Shigeru Miyamoto Sees "Nothing Wrong" With HD Graphics
Better graphics do indeed help gameplay. Developers want more detail in their games and it takes powerful graphics hardware/software to fulfill their vision. The reason why Miyamoto has no use for stressing on more powerful graphics in his games is because his games look very simplistic. Miyamoto just doesn't need to take the next step in graphic ability because his games don't need it. And may I point out that graphics help the experience a hell of a lot. Some developers just want to make their worlds more detailed and vivid than others. That is simply it. #nintendo
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Hamster Poop
10/16/09

@Boom-Chicka-Ah: Here to Create a Star Commenter Empire: No it doesn't. The gameply itself would be the same whether you are controlling a character with a highly detailed and clothes or one made out of blocks. He'd move and function the same. The asthetics would change, but not the actual gameplay. #nintendo
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gold163 (° д° )
10/17/09

@Hamster Poop: Your ability to experience the gameplay would change, and that does matter. In my opinion, it does factor into how the game is played. For example, a lot of modern PC games are practically unplayable at extremely low detail and low resolutions. Can you imagine how much a game of Splinter Cell would change if shadows didn't exist? What about Doom 3? Nevermind that Doom 3's underlying gameplay is ultimately simplistic; its graphical engine is capable of producing some impressive shadows (or, impressive for their time), and taking that away not only kills whatever atmosphere the game was trying to convey, but it also does ruin the game itself, considering that darkness is a core element of the "gameplay". #nintendo
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Boom-Chicka-Ah: Here to Create a Star Commenter Empire
10/17/09

@Hamster Poop: Oh yeah? try playing shadow of the colossus on nintendo 64 and tell me if your experience of gameplay was the same. #nintendo
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Ian T. Henderson
10/18/09

@Boom-Chicka-Ah: Here to Create a Star Commenter Empire: Where can I get this "Shadow of the Colossus 64" that you speak of? #nintendo
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Hamster Poop
10/18/09

@Boom-Chicka-Ah: Here to Create a Star Commenter Empire: I wouldn't like that game no matter how pretty it looked. #nintendo
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Hamster Poop
10/18/09

@gold163 (° д° ): See, for me, atmosphere doesn't matter to me. I am not into dark, brooding games as most people are. I am not looking for a game to immerse me in some story or some atmosphere. I am just looking to have some genuine fun. Those games you listed do not equate to genuine fun for me. So whether I play a game like Splinter Cell or Doom 3 on a 360 or PS3, or play them on a Super NES, it would be the same to me. Actually, I might prefer the Super NES versions since they wouldn't be trying so hard to be creepy and dark. #nintendo
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Boom-Chicka-Ah: Here to Create a Star Commenter Empire
10/18/09

@Ian T. Henderson: well that went waaay over your head #nintendo
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Boom-Chicka-Ah: Here to Create a Star Commenter Empire
10/18/09

@Hamster Poop: your loss #nintendo
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gold163 (° д° )
10/18/09

@Hamster Poop: But you're missing the point; and that is while graphics are not necessarily congruent to gameplay itself, graphics are often an important facet of the gameplay, and it's no exaggeration to say that graphics are what allow more advanced gameplay in the first place. In short, if there were no graphics, how much gameplay could you have? Conversely, having higher-end graphics and technology allows developers to do things with gameplay that they wouldn't be able to do otherwise, allowing them to convey visual information in ways that they couldn't on older technology, or at least couldn't convey in as much of an efficient and aesthetically pleasing manner. You're perfectly fine with playing Doom 3 on a Super NES (and I don't recall Splinter Cell trying to be "creepy"), but how many other people who actually want to experience the game for all it can be would be just as satisfied? You're being a little single-minded here. You're thinking just like Miyamoto: "Just because I don't care about graphics, and just because I don't think they affect the gameplay of the games I make or play, that means that they don't matter to anybody else, and therefore they aren't important." And well, it's the wrong mindset to have, because it kind of discourages diversity and limits creativity amongst games. There's more to gameplay than just button presses and interesting gimmicks; often times the atmosphere or the visual appeal can contribute heavily to how you experience a game, and I'd say that's important.
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Edited by gold163 (° д° ) at 10/18/09 9:38 PM gold163 (° д° ) was starred

Boom-Chicka-Ah: Here to Create a Star Commenter Empire
10/19/09

@gold163 (° д° ): A good example is Dead Space. #nintendo
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gold163 (° д° )
10/19/09

@Boom-Chicka-Ah: Here to Create a Star Commenter Empire: Actually, I'm not sure if that would be such a great example. Sure, it undoubtedly shows that graphics are very important to create atmosphere, Dead Space could have been done without HD graphics. In fact, it was originally in development for the first Xbox:

[www.youtube.com]

While it's obviously missing a little spit 'n shine, it's still Dead Space, and in my opinion it appears to preserve the aesthetics of the final product fairly well for a last-gen, non-native HD console.

I think a more relevant example of how important graphics and processing power overall are is the original Medal of Honor on the Playstation. I'm sure that the game would have been far, far more enjoyable if it hadn't been held back by technical limitations. The draw distance was pathetic, letting you see only perhaps 5-6 meters in front of your face, so the sniper rifle couldn't even really zoom in. There are a number of clipping and graphical glitches that can easily be blamed on the Playstation's relatively primitive graphics capabilities, and the game more often than not ran at framerates of lower than 20 FPS, making it extremely difficult to aim at things. In fact, interviews reveal that the engine technically wasn't able to render more than two enemies on screen at the same time without horribly raping the engine. In short, it's amazing how anybody had the tolerance to enjoy that game, because looking back on it, it probably would have fared far better on superior hardware.

A more ancient example of this same kind of predicament is the Atari 2600 itself. Although the system was extremely popular, it really couldn't render more than a few objects on screen at the same time - a "ball" and "missle" object, specifically. Anything more than that would cause the screen to flicker horribly so that the system could keep up, and technically, most games didn't even render everything that was supposed to be on the screen in one frame at a time. The Atari 2600 port of Space Invaders is notorious for not having as many aliens as the original, even though the developers had already used tricks to make the hardware render as many as it did.

While it's obvious that these kinds of situations are hardly analogous to today's technical tribulations, they can be used to illustrate the simple fact that hardware matters. HD graphics do matter in this day and age, because higher resolutions not only make many games prettier, they make them playable. I used to play Unreal Tournament 3 and Team Fortress 2 on a much older graphics card, and could only play at a resolution of 640 x 480 on the lowest settings. It didn't matter how smoothly the games ran (which they really didn't), it was still nearly impossible to hit anything because it was hard to tell what was what. Now I can play both games at resolutions of 1280 x 1024. Let me tell you, not only is it a big improvement in the graphics department, completely changing the atmosphere of both games, but it also makes them both playable for once. Dead Rising Wii failed because it couldn't render as many zombies on screen as the original, and on my old specs, TF 2 lagged to high hell whenever more than a few players were on screen blowing each other up. Now, let's say that the Wii could keep up with the 360 and PS3 in terms of graphics processing power, but still only output in 480p at maximum. Not only would that make NO sense, confounding and frustrating many customers who are smart enough to know what the system would be capable of, it also holds the system back because the developers would not be willing to support such an outdated definition, and having low resolutions would hinder gameplay in many obvious ways, not to mention completely killing the atmosphere. Trust me, playing a 480p game on a 40" flatscreen television perfectly capable of 1080p is not pretty AT ALL.

Anyway, the point here is that I can't see why anybody would be AGAINST HD graphics. And while it's obvious that Miyamoto is not exactly opposed to HD graphics, he's completely ignoring anything that graphics can contribute to an experience, both atmospherically and technically speaking. It's impractical, but he'd never know, because it's not like most Nintendo games run on cutting-edge graphics technology, nor does the gameplay in most Nintendo games rely on modern graphical techniques to create atmosphere, display relevant information in creative ways, or facilitate gameplay beyond what has already been done. It's no exaggeration to say that Nintendo games function very very differently from most other games, so of course HD might not be as relevant. But Nintendo's adamant stance on HD is what's keeping potential customers at bay, and it's one of the reasons why they lost so much third-party interest and support. Even from a business standpoint, this stuff fucking matters.
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Edited by gold163 (° д° ) at 10/19/09 2:50 PM gold163 (° д° ) was starred

Hamster Poop
10/19/09

@gold163 (° д° ): You'd say it's important, and I say it's not that important. Some people love playing against a timer; I hate it. Some people love games that are dark and lack real colour apart from grey and brown; I don't. I think what you are describing is more the CPU power for physics calculations that allow for the greater gameplay, not how pretty something looks on the screen. Whether it's a blocky Atari 2600 character, or that Drake guy from Uncharted, you're still just moving pixels around on a screen. It's the programming behind those pixels and the muscle of the CPU that allows the gameplay to become more complex and realistic. #nintendo
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gold163 (° д° )
10/19/09

@Hamster Poop: How realistic can gameplay possibly get without ways to realistically convey information about the gameplay to the player? There are plenty of gameplay elements rely on visual information, and if you can't actually see what you're doing, well then tough luck. It's not just about atmosphere, and "atmosphere" doesn't necessarily refer to games that only have limited color palettes or games that try to be "dark and brooding". You're being far too general here. HD isn't necessarily a must for gameplay, but as of now it's a prerequisite in a lot of games. Miyamoto isn't just talking about HD here, either. He's talking about graphics in general. If you have muscle behind your CPU, then you should have muscle behind your GPU as well. And besides, hardware physics processing is becoming more mainstream; if we can take the load of physics calculations off the CPU and put it on the GPU instead, that's that much more memory that you can devote to gameplay, not to mention impressive graphics. Like I said, graphics aren't equal to gameplay, but it's ridiculous to say that a game on the Atari 2600 and a game on the PS3 would play the same despite the shift in graphics. Graphics are tied to processing in general; if you have a pathetic graphics processor, but you have an insanely powerful CPU, then what's the point? Graphics facilitate gameplay, and if you have more space on the screen, not to mention more processing power to put more things into the screen, then you can create more complex gameplay. Obviously, Nintendo has no need for or desire to make their systems competitively powerful, but it's pretty obvious that their decision to use obsolete processing technology has lost them a lot of support from both third-parties and customers. Something like Uncharted would not even be possible to emulate properly on the Wii. Even if you had the computer processing power to emulate the general gameplay, you still would lose so much of the experience if you didn't have the muscle to support the graphics. Then, what would be the point? Sure, the gameplay would be there, but many games are about so much more than just the gameplay itself. You'd be robbing the game of everything EXCEPT its gameplay, and then, who would care? You might as well stick the thing onto a 3D0 and let it run at 5 fps. The gameplay would still be there. Would you play it? Can you honestly say that you'd enjoy it as much, or that the gameplay would be absolutely perfect and preserved?
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Edited by gold163 (° д° ) at 10/19/09 6:08 PM gold163 (° д° ) was starred

Hamster Poop
10/20/09

@gold163 (° д° ): Why does a game even need to be realistic? Why can't they just be games? Why do they have to be realistic to be fun?

"Obviously, Nintendo has no need for or desire to make their systems competitively powerful, but it's pretty obvious that their decision to use obsolete processing technology has lost them a lot of support from both third-parties and customers."

I'll concede the third party support, though they have a lot of it, but customers? No. They do not have a huge lead and continue to sell Wiis hand over fist each month because they lost customers.

As far as Uncharted 2, no doubt the Wii couldn't process the physics required for that game, but it could definitely handle the poor looking wall and ground textures I have seen in a lot of screen shots. Again, I don't see how making the Drake guy look more realistic improves the gameplay. #nintendo
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gold163 (° д° )
10/20/09

@Hamster Poop: I only brought up the concept of realism in games because you did. And Nintendo does of course have one of the largest consumer bases around, but you can't deny that they would have had a lot more if they had made the decision to properly support HD in the first place, along with the decision to actually put more horsepower into the Wii so that developers could actually, you know, develop what they wanted to for the Wii. And you're still thinking too small. Graphics are so much more than just putting textures onto models. Plus, having Drake act realistically does give the player significant gameplay cues. The way he stumbles, the way he moves, and the way he reacts to things that are happening around him allow the player to be more in tune with the game and what's going on. That's animation on a level that a system like the Wii that practically runs on last-gen hardware just can't handle. Not everyone's going to feel the same way, but it does add to the gameplay experience. Resolution is especially important, and if I can't see where I'm shooting then I think that's fucking interfering with the gameplay and hindering my fun. Like I said, it's flat out impossible to play some games if the system you're playing on can't even handle the game properly; that's the reason why so many Playstation fighter ports were pale imitations of the original. The framerates were off, hit detection suffered, and having missing frames of animation really cut into how the games were played. If that's not gameplay, I don't know what is.

You're asking why games need to be realistic to be fun, and the answer is that while they do not need to have the best graphics evar to be fun, it certainly helps people enjoy the game more, and it adds to the diversity of games out there. I don't recall saying that games need to be realistic to be fun. But, it does depend on the game. Not every single fucking game out there calls for the simplicity in graphics design of a Mario game, and if they did, I can assure you that people would feel very differently about how they played.
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Edited by gold163 (° д° ) at 10/20/09 1:32 PM gold163 (° д° ) was starred

Taggart6: I don't always drink beer, but when I do...
10/16/09

In reply to Shigeru Miyamoto Sees "Nothing Wrong" With HD Graphics
I don't know many old folks homes with HDTVs so maybe he's on to something. #nintendo
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Striderhayasa - Can we get some damn m/kb support?!
10/16/09

In reply to Shigeru Miyamoto Sees "Nothing Wrong" With HD Graphics
I don't see anything mixed about what Miyamoto is saying. First and foremost, after the debacle that was the Gamecube, Nintendo wasn't sure if the Wii was going to even be truly profitable not to mention an actual success. So why put even more millions of dollars into R & D into a HD enable motion controlled console after you just got your asses kicked in the last two generations and have no guarantee of success? Talk about risking the entire company trying to be future proof...Sony tried that and I'd be one of the first people to tell how much I enjoy the Ps3 but from a business perspective, it's a dumbass move. People looked at the 60 GB PS3 price tag first, without thinking about what was in it and bitched and bitched about how it was too expensive. Now, some of these same people that want to get the best model PS3 sans price cut but guess what....it's the same damn 60GB that they bitched about, that Sony doesn't make anymore, because no one bought it. It only took the masses 3 years to "get it". Higher price tag + partially ignorant consumer base does not always equal success.

Nintendo had better business acumen, innovation and marketing and crushed the competition by NOT putting HD in the Wii and keeping the cost down. I'm not a big fan of the current Wii but Nintendo did what they've always done since the 80's...redefined the industry this time at a lower price point.. and god help us all..

I'd buy a WiiHD if and only if Nintendo improves their online with more community features and gives us 5.1 support while keeping costs competitive. #nintendo
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Eltigro
10/16/09

In reply to Shigeru Miyamoto Sees "Nothing Wrong" With HD Graphics
Does that mean that if I play my Atari 2600 on my HDTV, ET will be fun? #nintendo
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Robotube on PSN wants to play SFHD.
10/16/09

@Eltigro: No. #nintendo
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Eltigro
10/16/09

@Robotube on PSN wants to play SFHD.: Darn, was hoping that with the extra lines of resolution I'd finally be able to see all those holes... #nintendo
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Skunky
10/16/09

@Eltigro: Let me know when you find the HDMI socket on a 2600, I still can't find it. :D #nintendo
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Shiryu
10/16/09

In reply to Shigeru Miyamoto Sees "Nothing Wrong" With HD Graphics
Im good either way, but if or when I do buy a 1080p TV, I want to upscale my Wii to 1080p with something along the lines of that pic. I just hope Wii HD is fully GC/Wii480p compatible, of course. #nintendo
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SuicidalEarthworm
10/16/09

@Shiryu: upscaling your standard def won't make much of a difference. Seriously, upscaled dvd to 1080p looks almost identical to standard def. You just don't gain resolution all of a sudden because it upscale. It just round out the edges a little better. As for backward compatible...it's possible, but it probably won't be included. It will come in the form of downloadable content. #nintendo
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Madeira
10/16/09

@SuicidalEarthworm: DVD upscaled to 1080p looks significantly better than 480p. A few years ago when I got my first upscaling player, I was blown away by the difference. #nintendo
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Thrumm
10/16/09

In reply to Shigeru Miyamoto Sees "Nothing Wrong" With HD Graphics
Graphics don't make the gaming experience better. Would HD graphics make Pac-Man an even better game, no. It's all about game play. You could have the prettiest most graphically awesome game ever created, but if when you start playing the game is the worst buggiest most convoluted piece of crap ever to put on disc the graphics won't matter. Would HD graphic make Superman 64 palatable, no. #nintendo
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Blore07
10/16/09

@Thrumm: No, no it wouldnt.
Your right, Gameplay Graphics.

But some people do enjoy a good visually stunning moment, it can really help set a mood.
Its not needed, but HD would be a nice plus.

Thankyou for making sure that everyone has read that exact same comment you posted for the 1001st time. #nintendo
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Sakilla
10/15/09

In reply to Shigeru Miyamoto Sees "Nothing Wrong" With HD Graphics
On one hand, I'm spoiled on HD graphics. On the other hand, art direction always beats graphics. Always. A bland and sterile looking game looks bland and sterile in HD.

I would prefer the Wii caught up and did HD, but honestly, when a game like Super Mario Galaxy busts out I can't really tell the difference unless I actually make a point to think about it. Shadow of the Colossus anyone?

As much as I love HD I'm so tired of the snobs who condemn everything that isn't. Yes, we get it, HD is super fine, but to be hung up on the tech behind games is to miss the point. Some of the greatest games I'll ever play are pixels and sprites. That said, Uncharted 2 looks completely amazing. #nintendo
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MiST
10/15/09

@Sakilla: I second your words! My two favourite games are System Shock 2 & UFO: Enemy Unknown despite the graphics, if there were modern games with their type of gameplay and replayability we'd be fucking spoiled #nintendo
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dowingba
10/16/09

@Sakilla: There are only a couple games I've played this gen that actually make me notice the "HD"ness of the graphics. Uncharted 2 is one of those games. Man is it gorgeous.

That being said Mario Galaxy is easily my favourite game this generation. I'm not really sure it would look much different in "HD".
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Edited by dowingba at 10/16/09 12:03 AM dowingba was starred dowingba was unstarred

Sakilla
10/16/09

@dowingba: No, I don't think Mario Galaxy would look much different in HD. The game is freakin' beautiful. Art direction is well done. And the game play is perfect. So while Killzone 2 was a gorgeous and fun game, yeah, it is what it is. Sorry, Killzone. We had some fun together. #nintendo
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Dresan
10/16/09

@Sakilla: Exactly, when done correctly, a person cannot distinguish if it is HD or not. Galaxy is a great example, Muramasa occupies a certain spot as well. #nintendo
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jdskeleven
10/16/09

@dowingba: I'd mostly agree when it comes to art direction and the HD-ness of graphics, except that I first played Gears of War on an old analogue TV. It was fine, but then I played GoW2 on a HD TV and realized that I had barely been able to make out distant enemies in the first game. I don't really care what kind of graphics a game has, as long as things aren't muddy and unclear. (Twilight Princess could really have done with HD for that reason - I know I played it on a crappy TV, but it was still frustrating at times.) #nintendo
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Esper mind tricks
10/15/09

In reply to Shigeru Miyamoto Sees "Nothing Wrong" With HD Graphics
Its like he's talking about girls:
"Looks isn't everything, personality and charm is also important. But it wouldn't hurt to look good" #nintendo
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peteer02
10/15/09

In reply to Shigeru Miyamoto Sees "Nothing Wrong" With HD Graphics
I know it's never as easily as this, but wouldn't it be nice to see a WiiPlus or whatever they'd call it that could render every existing Wii title in 720p or 1080p? If they can pull off they DSi, maybe they can pull off a Wiii?

I'd probably buy an HD Wii for my son if one came out. #nintendo
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Foxstar is in love with Kotaku's two Brians. promoted this comment peteer02 was starred peteer02 was unstarred

Foxstar is in love with Kotaku's two Brians.
10/16/09

@peteer02: Your forgetting something.

The DSi is a complete system upgrade from head to toe. It still plays DS games but will also support the newer titles it was built for.

Building a HD Wii wouldn't be accepted so well. #nintendo
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miquonranger03
10/15/09

In reply to Shigeru Miyamoto Sees "Nothing Wrong" With HD Graphics
Not REALLY mixed signals. He's saying that HD graphics are nice, but they don't really make the game itself better. Nintendo will focus on gameplay, but they will begin to use HD in the future. Miyamoto himself would like to see his own games in HD, but he wants to make it clear that he believes that the graphics won't actually make the game itself any better. #nintendo
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staySICK
10/15/09

In reply to Shigeru Miyamoto Sees "Nothing Wrong" With HD Graphics
Sure their graphics aren't top notch, but its really surprising what they can pull out of the system. Mario Galaxy just looks great even without the HD.

Looking forward to Galaxy 2. #nintendo
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otis123
10/15/09

In reply to Shigeru Miyamoto Sees "Nothing Wrong" With HD Graphics
I've had HDTVs for 8 years! who has a 8 yr old tv that still works well? #nintendo
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spiderweb1986
10/15/09

@otis123: Given that less than 25% of households in the US own HDTVs, I'd guess most of us. #nintendo
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Metkis
10/15/09

@spiderweb1986: A story from Dec. 08? you can do better. #nintendo
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Harpo
10/15/09

@otis123: I got one, too. It not only works, it works pretty damn well. And since I don't have a job or a steady income, I'm glad it does. #nintendo
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spiderweb1986 promoted this comment Harpo was starred Harpo was unstarred

spiderweb1986
10/15/09

@Metkis: December 2008 isn't exactly "old," and Nielsen's bread and butter is TV viewership data. I trust them, and given that we're in the middle of a recession I really doubt that number's changed much - maybe a few percentage points.

The point's the same either way: the vast majority of the country still has old TVs. Want proof of that? Look at how many people needed coupons for the digital converter program. #nintendo
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0suited
10/15/09

In reply to Shigeru Miyamoto Sees "Nothing Wrong" With HD Graphics
Ironically Nintendo were the ones who came out on top because they didn't rush to the ball.

360: Is a mixed bag now, has DVD yet has 1080p output. At first it was fine but now it is lagging behind and now it is stuck in the middle since everything is getting bigger and to last the next few years without bluray with 1080p is a huge pickle to be in. One way to get past that is DLC or a bigger harddrive, but it still a pickle no matter what.

PS3: Released as a full next gen gaming machine but lag behind the competition for YEARS because of it, only now starting to catch up.

Wii: DVD with standard graphics, Nintendo didn't lose anything by going this route (a part from lose to many a pirate, but they make up their loses very well) and now they could probably safely release a HD model within the next year or two... HD won't be the underlying feature (Nintendo will have to have other newer features to make it sell other then just 'lol here is wii hd enjoy'), but it is standard so no doubt it will most likely be able to output full HD quality with and maybe use bluray disc or some other form of new medium. #nintendo
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Valshier
10/15/09

In reply to Shigeru Miyamoto Sees "Nothing Wrong" With HD Graphics
I've had a 40 in HDTV, PS3, and 360 for the last 2 years but I've never been bothered by the graphics on the Wii. I do admit that nice graphics can lend toward a more atmospheric experience, but that can only marginally help a game (old games like Thief are still very immersive despite dated graphics). I think that 'jaggies' or 'pixely' graphics can be very appealing when used properly. #nintendo
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Eltigro
10/15/09

@Valshier: Cave Story. #nintendo
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Valshier
10/16/09

@Eltigro: Yeah Cave Story is a great example. Another great one is Chrono Trigger which I like seeing up on a big screen over a tiny DS screen. #nintendo
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PossibleCabbage
10/15/09

In reply to Shigeru Miyamoto Sees "Nothing Wrong" With HD Graphics
Isn't the statistic still that fewer than 50% of televisions in the United States are high definition?

With the recent revelation that fewer half of the people who played Gears of War 2 did so on an HDTV, you can't really blame Nintendo for dragging their feet here.

The technology is certainly here for some people, but not everybody has latched onto the HD bandwagon, which is fine. Nintendo is certainly correct for focusing on gameplay over graphics. #nintendo
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