In this final assignment for Beyond Good & Evil you'll need to complete the game. After finishing up the game, try to think up some interesting questions and discussion topics. I will have a list of my own, but I'm hoping we can all ask each other interesting things to discuss.

The game is available for the Xbox (not backwards compatible) PS2, Gamecube and the PC via Steam and Gametap.

Remember we'll be meeting on Thursday at 7:30 p.m. Mountain. Just come to the site and look for the Game Club Beyond Good & Evil Discussion post. Again sorry for the delay in putting this out to you all.

Hit the jump for the Game Club rules.

The Game Club is going to be conducted via the Internets, meaning, sadly, we won't all be meeting in Fahey's living room over coffee and crumpets to discuss the latest Game Club game. Instead, we will be meeting both on Kotaku and in a giant chat room.

I hope to dump the on-going discussion the group of people is having into the Kotaku post so those who couldn't make it in or who arrive late can still participate with one another.

Once in the room, I'll moderate the chat. The idea here is that we don't want a few dozen people all trying to talk about the game at the same time. So, I hope we can get someone to ask an intelligent question and then take turns discussing it. Remember this is a work in progress so we'll make tweaks to the mechanics of how this works as we proceed.

A cardinal rule will be that there will be no off-topic talking, no trolling, no flame wars, no fan-boyism in the chat or the person will be kicked out. We're all intelligent people, I don't see why we can't act like we are when gathered together online.

In general the idea is for people to discuss the current video game in a thoughtful and meaningful way. Why we won't totally disallow discussion of things like graphics and play mechanics, those particular topics should really be brought up in a way that addresses the deeper meaning and ideas presented in the game.

Each week I'll do a post outlining the Game Club's assignment. Please, no playing ahead. This could taint your views of what's currently going on in the section we hope to discuss.

Hopefully, this mostly makes sense. Ask your questions here about how this will work and I'll try to answer them.

Keep in mind we are only talking about what's taken place through the end of the Slaughterhouse section of the game.

Hit up the full Assignment Two announcement for all of the rules and the latest stopping point.

Assignment Two

In this second assignment for Beyond Good & Evil you'll need to complete the Slaughterhouse section of the game. Make sure you don't play past that point because I'd like us all to be on the same page, so to speak. After playing through the chunk, try to think up some interesting questions and discussion topics. I will have a list of my own, but I'm hoping we can all ask each other interesting things to discuss.

The game is available for the Xbox (not backwards compatible) PS2, Gamecube and the PC via Steam and Gametap.

We'll be meeting on Tuesday at 9:30 p.m. Eastern. Just come to the site and look for the Game Club Beyond Good & Evil Discussion post. Again sorry for the delay in putting this out to you all.

Hit the jump for the Game Club rules.

The Game Club is going to be conducted via the Internets, meaning, sadly, we won't all be meeting in Fahey's living room over coffee and crumpets to discuss the latest Game Club game. Instead, we will be meeting both on Kotaku and in a giant chat room.

I hope to dump the on-going discussion the group of people is having into the Kotaku post so those who couldn't make it in or who arrive late can still participate with one another.

Once in the room, I'll moderate the chat. The idea here is that we don't want a few dozen people all trying to talk about the game at the same time. So, I hope we can get someone to ask an intelligent question and then take turns discussing it. Remember this is a work in progress so we'll make tweaks to the mechanics of how this works as we proceed.

A cardinal rule will be that there will be no off-topic talking, no trolling, no flame wars, no fan-boyism in the chat or the person will be kicked out. We're all intelligent people, I don't see why we can't act like we are when gathered together online.

In general the idea is for people to discuss the current video game in a thoughtful and meaningful way. Why we won't totally disallow discussion of things like graphics and play mechanics, those particular topics should really be brought up in a way that addresses the deeper meaning and ideas presented in the game.

Each week I'll do a post outlining the Game Club's assignment. Please, no playing ahead. This could taint your views of what's currently going on in the section we hope to discuss.

Hopefully, this mostly makes sense. Ask your questions here about how this will work and I'll try to answer them.

Keep in mind we are only talking about what's taken place through the end of the Black Isle Mines section of the game.

The First Assignment

We will be meeting weekly, on Monday's at 9:30 p.m. Eastern, though this month with the holiday and E3, is going to have an odd schedule. I'm pretty sure it will be easy to get through the game in four meetings. So let's plan on our first meeting to start on July 7 at 9:30 p.m. Eastern. Just come to the site and look for the Game Club Beyond Good & Evil Discussion post.

In this first assignment for Beyond Good & Evil you'll need to complete the the Black Isle Mines section of the game. Make sure you don't play past that point because I'd like us all to be on the same page, so to speak. After playing through the chunk, try to think up some interesting questions and discussion topics. I will have a list of my own, but I'm hoping we can all ask each other interesting things to discuss.

The game is available for the Xbox (not backwards compatible) PS2, Gamecube and the PC via Steam and Gametap.

Hit the jump for the Game Club rules.

The Game Club is going to be conducted via the Internets, meaning, sadly, we won't all be meeting in Fahey's living room over coffee and crumpets to discuss the latest Game Club game. Instead, we will be meeting both on Kotaku and in a giant chat room.

I hope to dump the on-going discussion the group of people is having into the Kotaku post so those who couldn't make it in or who arrive late can still participate with one another.

Once in the room, I'll moderate the chat. The idea here is that we don't want a few dozen people all trying to talk about the game at the same time. So, I hope we can get someone to ask an intelligent question and then take turns discussing it. Remember this is a work in progress so we'll make tweaks to the mechanics of how this works as we proceed.

A cardinal rule will be that there will be no off-topic talking, no trolling, no flame wars, no fan-boyism in the chat or the person will be kicked out. We're all intelligent people, I don't see why we can't act like we are when gathered together online.

In general the idea is for people to discuss the current video game in a thoughtful and meaningful way. Why we won't totally disallow discussion of things like graphics and play mechanics, those particular topics should really be brought up in a way that addresses the deeper meaning and ideas presented in the game.

Each week I'll do a post outlining the Game Club's assignment. Please, no playing ahead. This could taint your views of what's currently going on in the section we hope to discuss.

Hopefully, this mostly makes sense. Ask your questions here about how this will work and I'll try to answer them.

Have no fear though, I didn't forget you Game Clubbers, in fact I was working behind the scenes to line up some changes to the club to make it a bit easier for more people to participate and to bring in someone who can help kick off what I hope will become each month's new game. (More to come on that soon, I hope)

Today I can announce that we will be bringing Game Club back starting July 1. Our first title? To kick things off on the right foot we're going with Kotaku pick Beyond Good & Evil.

Now don't jump the gun and start playing it now, if you haven't already. The whole idea of Game Club is for it to be a shared experience. Expect more details coming out over the next couple of weeks as I finalize everything, but until then here are the Game Club's rules.

OK, time to kick off the final discussion for Mr. Robot. Hit up the link below to join in the campfire. Remember this time around we are discussing the game up to the end of the cryo room. Joining us today is Georgia Tech professor Ian Bogost, the author of Persuasive Games: The Expressive Power of Videogames and a recent guest on the Cobert Report. So get your questions ready and hop on the link. If the room is full please follow along here, I'll be keeping an eye on the discussion and trying to post questions from here into the room.

Campfire

Brian C.
Alright folks lets get this party started. Settle down and no more talking with out the OK.
Ian B.
I'm usually pretty chill about that
shodanjr_gr
kk, ill shut up now
Brian C.
As a reminder our special guest tonight is Georgia Tech professor Ian Bogost, the author of Persuasive Games: The Expressive Power of Videogames and a recent guest on the Cobert Report.
Brian C.
if you want to ask a question or make a comment, just aim kotakugameclub
Brian C.
Just to get everyone up to speed. This is the last discussion of Mr. Robot. So you should have, thought might not have, finished the game.
Brian C.
Go ahead and AIM if you have any questions to start out with
Brian C.
Let's talk about the moral dilemma Asimov faces in the game. Should he put his faith in the bodyless human and potentially lose his chance at being truly alive, or should he just kill the crew?
Paul C.
has left the room
Brian C.
Ian, I'd like to ask if you think that a puzzle game, which is what this essentially is, has the ability to teach moral lessons
Brent
has entered the room
Brian C.
Ian has the floor
dghdfh
has entered the room
Ian B.
There is a famous conflict in game studies about that very question
Aug 16
9:50 PM
Moose
has left the room
Ian B.
Janet Murray, one of my colleagues at Georgia Tech, once suggested that Tetris represents the ethics of work in contemporary society. Always sorting, moving tasks, papers, calls, whatever, and still more come.
Ian B.
So, she saw it as a kind of allegory for what work is all about.
FloatingWorld
has entered the room
Ian B.
This really riled up a Finnish researcher named Markku Eskelinen, who thought that Murray's suggestion was absurd
Ian B.
But I think puzzles can abstractly represent real human experience, including moral dilemmas
datafox
With respect to the first question I think it is interesting how much faith is going on in the mind of Asimov. The only two humans you know are Zasamova and the Engineer. So you do not get a range of human personalities to draw from. Asimov is putting a lot of faith in the best of humanity.
Brian C.
As a reminder please if you want to ask a question or make a comment, just aim kotakugameclub
Brian C.
Atomicvege has the floor
Atomicvege
on that topic, how many people actually wiped the crew and how many left them alone? Personally, i didn't feel right doing that as a player so continued on
Lawinator
has left the room
fuck y.
has entered the room
Aug 16
9:55 PM
fuck y.
hello
Brian C.
I wonder if in this case the inclusion of a story actually got in the way of the lesson the game was trying to teach. Or was it trying to teach a question
Brian C.
As a reminder please if you want to ask a question or make a comment, just aim kotakugameclub
Brian C.
ian has the floor
Ian B.
I was listening to a recording of a GDC talk today, a Harmonix talk
Ian B.
I was listening to a recording of a GDC talk today, a Harmonix talk
Ian B.
and they were talking about the differences between Frequency and, say, Guitar Hero
Ian B.
and the importance of coupling the mechanics of music creation (in their case) to a specific context... this being one of the reasons Frequency and Amplitude were critical successes but commercial failures
Ian B.
Back to Tetris, with this in mind:
Ian B.
right, so
Ian B.
If you wanted to argue that Tetris is an allegory for work, you could do that by telling a story between or beside each level, right? This is what a lot of games do
Aug 16
Ian B.
But it's less tightly coupled to the mechanics than other ways of contextualizing meaning. For example, the Boss Key
ezrid
has entered the room
ezrid
Woa
Ian B.
in Tetris, brought up this fake spreadsheet in case you got caught playing while you were at work.
Brian C.
As a reminder please if you want to ask a question or make a comment, just aim kotakugameclub
Ian B.
And for me, that's a much more compelling reason to talk about the puzzle mechanic of the game as relating to work than if we had some capitalist storyline running through it
Brian C.
datafox has the floor
datafox
I think the game left out a lot of story for you to make judgements on the humans. You are asked if you want them to live or die but you do not have much interation with people. If it was more like System Shock 2 with e-mails or logs it would be more interesting since you can decide how humans thought of robots.
datafox
I did save the people.
Brian C.
dilan manatunga has the floor
Dilan M.
In response to Ian, his comments about Markuu remind me of why I really couldn't stand English class. At some point, I thought a poem was just a poem and the author really didn't intend to make some grand metaphor on the passage of life (not to say they don't ever mean to make a point). But then I realized, what's not important is what the author/creator means with his creation, but what you as a person gets out of it. For me, the story is what brought out the whole abstraction of what makes us people, or better put, sentient beings that have certain unalienable rights. The puzzle aspects, on the other hand, I'm really not sure what to get out of it though. Sorta like staring at a piece of abstract art. You feel like you should be getting something out of the piece of art, but you are not sure what. Hence, I really appreciate the story since it guides you in a way.
Aug 16
10:05 PM
Brian C.
MTVernon has the floor
MTVERNON
I wiped the crew. I find it interesting that [whoever it was, sorry] "didn't feel right doing that as a player." I felt obligated. Maybe that's a consequence of the way games have taught me to play: there are rewards all over the place, so leave no stone unturned. I'm still moments from finishing the game, though. It's possible I'm going to regret my decision. (PS - Don't worry about spoiling anything...)
Brian C.
ataomicvege has the floor
Atomicvege
In response to Ian: but argument aside, tetris doesn't have an obvious narrative implied by the designer. Mr. Robot does have such a narrative, but in that game particularly i found it was the story pushing me through, and the rooms that made great use of the puzzle mechanics of the game were far and few between, at leat for my liking
Brian C.
Ian has the floor
Ian B.
So, here's a maybe strange question that follows these good responses: how much story do you think is needed or useful to contextualize the meaning of the puzzles? For example: structurally, poems are much more like puzzles than prose is — do you think a more abstract narrative would have been more or less convincing in this case?
Brian C.
baseballt682 has the floor
tyler-LORDofDANCE
I don't think that the puzzles were meant to symbolize anything. They were just a means to deliver the story and to provide gameplay. Personally, I was extremely disappointed by the story. I thought there was a chance for a great one, but the opportunity was lost.
Brian C.
Interesting point Ian. This all goes back to the basic argument against deconstructionism, which seems to imply that it doesn't matter what the creator of the work had in mind when the wrote the book, the song, the video game, all that matters is what the user or reader or the listener gets out of it.
Brian C.
Putting aside that issue for a moment. What did everyone think of the game as a whole? Was it fun? Was it thought provoking? Was it both? Was it neither?
Brian C.
ian has the floor
Ian B.
So, here's a maybe strange question that follows these good responses: how much story do you think is needed or useful to contextualize the meaning of the puzzles? For example: structurally, poems are much more like puzzles than prose is — do you think a more abstract narrative would have been more or less convincing in this case?
Brian C.
baseballt682 has the floor
tyler-LORDofDANCE
I don't think that the puzzles were meant to symbolize anything. They were just a means to deliver the story and to provide gameplay. Personally, I was extremely disappointed by the story. I thought there was a chance for a great one, but the opportunity was lost.
Brian C.
Interesting point Ian. This all goes back to the basic argument against deconstructionism, which seems to imply that it doesn't matter what the creator of the work had in mind when the wrote the book, the song, the video game, all that matters is what the user or reader or the listener gets out of it.
rian C.
Putting aside that issue for a moment. What did everyone think of the game as a whole? Was it fun? Was it thought provoking? Was it both? Was it neither?
Brian C.
ian has the floor
Ian B.
Brian opened the door for us to get philosophical here. A lot of folks thing that deconstruction means that things can have any meaning we want, but the practice is really about the idea that meaning escapes its origins and integrates into new contexts in ways a creator could never anticipate or expect. So we can find new meaning in works, but those meanings are still emanating from the actual text — or in this case mechanics — that the creator fashioned.
Brian C.
So the creation is greater than the creator? (Or worse.)
Ian B.
Well, here's something to think about:
Ian B.
What does moving blocks around mean anyway?
Brian C.
Man's constant struggle with nature, himself. A reference to Sisyphus?
Brian C.
Floatingworld has the floor
FloatingWorld
Well for one, its monotonous. I imagine that you could strike a correlation between the robot's original reason for being created, without a true purpose. I would have to go out there and say that it wasn't moonpod's intention for this correlation to be made. Regardless, perhaps the entrance of the rpg element is symbolic of the robot's rise into some kind of meaning, a break from the monotony you could say?
Brian C.
atomicvege has the floor
Atomicvege
i have 2 comments, both for Ian.
Atomicvege
One is on the topic a little while ago of narrative
Atomicvege
it's that problem of the purpose of narrative of games isn't it. I just finished a paper on game and narrative and found that while its purpose is to push you through longer games, it is very easy for the story to overshadow the gameplay. I don't believe Mr. Robot had its gameplay overshadowed.
Dilan M.
The manipulation of our lives by some unknown source that has a greater plan intended. Or maybe the subjugation of supposedly lesser objects for the good of one overarching power, something which was happening to the robots.
Atomicvege
the other is in response to the blocks question
Atomicvege
Is the question in context of the game Mr. Robot or as a game mechanic?
Aug 16
Brian C.
ownageof night has the floor
datafox
I felt the game was ok. It had fun fighting aspects and some puzzles were novel but I was frustrated by the use of an isometric view point and jumping puzzles.
Brian C.
shaunomacx has the floor
datafox
With respect to moving blocks, it teaches you manual labor sucks no matter if you are in real life or on the computer.
shaunomacx
As a gamer, I'm curious to what was the intention with this title? Aside from recoup costs and turn a profit of course. People talk about EA throwing out the same stuff every year and not enough original IP just to keep the money flowing but as a relatively unknown developer what do you think the main and primary goal with Mr. Robot was? A question really moreso about the mindset of developers of original products in that there must be some sort of logical decision to make Mr Robot the way they did knowing or hoping rather that it would have had some sort of effect on the end user or result for the team who made it.
Brian C.
SemperDemens has the floor
Dilan M.
Sorry for putting this in earlier, (and SemperDemens is me so I am not going out of place again) but to me the moving blocks could mean: 1. The manipulation of our lives by some unknown source that has a greater plan intended. 2. the subjugation of supposedly lesser objects for the good of one overarching power, which is exactly what people are doing to robots.
Aug 16
10:25 PM
Brian C.
tyler-LORDofDANCE has the floor
tyler-LORDofDANCE
ok, I'm going to have some fun here. Asimov seems to rise in status and gain respect as the game goes on. This is to show the American Dream, and that with enough hard work anything is possible. The pushing of blocks is to symbolize the monotony of an everyday life and, as FloatingWorld stated, the RPG elements show the breaking of that monotony.
Brian C.
OK, we're about to run out of time. Let's hope back to the most important question: Was it worth it? Knowing what you know now do you think that you'd play Mr. Robot again?
tyler-LORDofDANCE has the floor
tyler-LORDofDANCE
Definitely. The first part was a little off putting, but the overall value of the game was great. For $15 dollars that is.
Brian C.
NYLatenite has the floor
NYLatenite
That's a negative - when I look at the time it took to finish the game, I think of all the other truly great titles I could have played. While it was a nice change of pace to try a game I normally would have overlooked, and the questions the game raised certainly are worthwhile, towards the end the gameplay (especially the JRPG style battles) had become so repetitive, all I wanted to do was get it over with.
Brian C.
SemperDemens has the floor
Dilan M.
No, for me, the story was left too unresolved. I wouldn't want to go through all the trouble again to be unsatisfied at the end. Especially since it was the story at the beginning that pushed me to beat the game, but now I know what happens, it is all sorta blah. And the platforming, puzzle, and rpg elements were just too repetitive and unoriginal for another play.
Brian C.
atomicvegetable has the floor
Aug 16
10:30 PM
JCtheMC
Are you still talking about Mr. Robot Dilan?
Atomicvege
there is a small urge to see what happens when you wipe the crew, but the gameplay frustrated me too much to make it worth my while. That being said, the length of the game and the discussion it caused made me not regret the purchase price.
Brian C.
I personally think it was worth it, not because the game was exceptionally good, but because it did provide a change of pace and I think buried down in the middle of a game that certainly has some flaws (I hate that static isometric view) I think there was a bit of chewy goodness.
Brian C.
FloatingWorld has the floor
oatingWorld
no, I wouldn't play it again, but I'd have to disagree Brian. I actually thought the isometric view was refreshing. Everything has a dynamic camera nowadays. Even though it was a pain when you were behind things, I liked that it kept the game simple. But I wouldn't play through again, because there wouldn't really be any other outcome
Brian C.
jpnance has the floor
jpnance
Although I thought the RPG segments were largely unbearable and they felt tacked on for the sake of having a little bit of everything, the platforming and puzzling really was a whole mess of fun once I got acquainted with the controls. I doubt I would play Mr. Robot again, but I would give a look to a game which borrowed the platforming/puzzling, dropped the RPG elements, and lasted a good 15-20 hours.
Aug 16
10:35 PM
Brian C.
shaunomacx has the floor
shaunomacx
I think the best thing at the minute would be to take all the feedback from the community and by extension and perhaps make a more expanded version of the game. For the price it certainly was worth the cash from the general consensus of the people who have took part in the discussion. If the title could resolve some issues such as viewpoint and length it took to achieve some tasks then in the future I think it would be worth a revisit as maybe an xbox live arcade/arcade for windows title albeit one slightly more polished. Refine Refine Refine.
shaunomacx
"and by extension these discussions" i meant to state
Brian C.
Alright folks I think we're out of time. Thanks again for joining us for The Game Club Beta. The real question is, does this format work and do you enjoy Game Club?
Brian C.
feel free to talk now, btb
FloatingWorld
yes
FloatingWorld
very much so
FloatingWorld
I had my wife log on for my, to make sure I had a spot when I got home from work
FloatingWorld
er my=me
MTVERNON
I'd definitely play more Mr. Robot. If anyone's tried the level editor, lemme know.
Brian C.
lol
Atomicvege
i liked the discussion, and the ability to talk to guests who are in the industry in some way is great
shaunomacx
i think so, as long as the people who join while the chat is in progress dont interrupt with "hi, hows u everyone" etc
jpnance
yeah, i thought it worked pretty well
jpnance
if anything, the discussions are too short
ezrid
I was just watching, but it was entertaining enough that i'd love to be in on this next time. Bioshock, maybe?
jpnance
but i know we all "have lives"
MTVERNON
yeah, i had a great time with this stuff.
Dilan M.
indeed, works well
Atomicvege
the campfire discussion needs refining i believe (or at least the transcript on the page) :)
shaunomacx
i personally think it should be titles which we otherwise wouldnt play
brandon
yea, i definitely dig the concept.
Brian C.
my concern about doing a modern game is twofold
MTVERNON
i ordered pizza to the hotel room tonight so that i could be here
tyler-LORDofDANCE
i agree
jpnance
yeah, i completely agree
FloatingWorld
i want to stress like i have, multiplatform games are the best idea...because not everyone owns every single console
Dilan M.
is beyond good and evil the next game?
Brian C.
first i want to make this as accessible as possible, so multiplatform and cheap titles, second I dont want anyone ever concerned about advertising
Brian C.
somethign i have no control over
shaunomacx
true i had to install Windows on my Mac
tyler-LORDofDANCE
i think im going to skip the next game club. give others a shot
Brian C.
and I'd hate to do a current game and see advertising pop up on the site
ezrid
Oh, good points all around. Besides, I doubt I'm going to stop playing bioshock at any point to talk...
CheapyD
has entered the room
MTVERNON
no kidding.
MTVERNON
hmmm
Brian C.
CHEAPY!
tyler-LORDofDANCE
oh just rub it int
CheapyD
whats up guys
Brian C.
i think the next club will have to be somethign shortish
brandon
yo
shaunomacx
maybe a discussion on the relevance of the likes of Quake 3 and its place in modern gaming next time?
Atomicvege
if we're discussing some titles as art, or at least defining titles in the medium, it's enevitable that by avoiding major titles, even exclusives, we might hinder ourselves in the future... but then accessibility goes out the window =/
shaunomacx
CheapyD :D
MTVERNON
hey Cheapy.
Brian C.
bk i have to squeeze it in between leipzig and TGS
NYLatenite
The format works well - I originally expected the thing to turn out like the /ooc channel in a mmog pickup raid, but everyone actually followed the rules (must be that ginat banhammer behind your back) - I think one thing you may want to consider though is possibly talking to the developers of the next title to get some ideas on what to expect so people can perhaps have questions and comments ready for the next meeting -this way there's less of a chance of getting sidetracked and there's hopefully more time to actually discuss things
FloatingWorld
any ideas brian?
tyler-LORDofDANCE
I just want to add that Ian's ideas made my brain explode.
Ian B.
that's my job :)
brandon
yea short can be good for those who werent able to keep thru a 3-parter
CheapyD
looks like i missed most of the fun
jpnance
yeah, for the future, i would love to be able to see what the developers themselves have to say
bashcraft
cheapy, you LATE
Brian C.
yeah, sorry
ezrid
Question: Is the chat interface a bit slow for anyone else?
datafox
I think I would prefer IRC with voicing.
Aug 16
10:40 PM
Brian C.
thats another issue. People in other countries are sort of screwed
jpnance
or maybe how the developers respond to the criticism
shaunomacx
its 3.40am for me!
FloatingWorld
hes so cheap, he shows up late so he doesn't have to pay a fee at the door.
Brian C.
yeah, i need to look into IRC for the next one
Brian C.
lol
Brian C.
good lord
datafox
Yea I think it was slow too.
jpnance
i mean, you can't do anything about our international friends
brandon
can any other kotaku editors host gameclubs in other timezones ;)
Atomicvege
actually yeah, if the discussion could have more of a question/answer flow, with questions prepared ahead of time, it might work... but that limits back and forth on discussion. It's tricky
ezrid
Definitely.
tyler-LORDofDANCE
I wonder if splitting up into different groups would work.
jpnance
i wish i didn't have to wake up at 4 in the morning to watch the finals of the australian open, but i do
ezrid
IRC, or something not slowish...
Brian C.
thats an idea
shaunomacx
nope tyler def not
tyler-LORDofDANCE
Each editor takes a group of 10-15
datafox
That would be interesting to see it done that way.
shaunomacx
thats a better explanation dude :)
tyler-LORDofDANCE
lol
Brian C.
any suggestions for the next club?
Brian C.
how long is beyond good and evil?
datafox
For a game?
jpnance
is BG&E not definitely the next game?
Brian C.
or :) God Hand
Atomicvege
i think you should definitely give irc a go
Dilan M.
maybe we could have breaks inbetween games
Dilan M.
to discuss some game industry theme
shaunomacx
discuss violence in games? who knows maybe you can get some anti gaming people in a chat brian?
ezrid
BG&E... I've been meaning to play that.
datafox
That sounds fun.
Atomicvege
with voicing, you wouldn't have to keep repeating yourself about the rules
MTVERNON
wow. god hand would be fun
shaunomacx
like you know who...
JCtheMC
has left the room
Brian C.
well we wont have another game until i get back from leipzig
tyler-LORDofDANCE
Anti-game people don't like reason and sense
CheapyD
screw JT
Brian C.
so the first week in september
datafox
No Tetris?
NYLatenite
maybe something without a specific end but more of an experience - something where even if you couldn't finish it, you could still discuss it's finer points - like an arcadish title
FloatingWorld
no GC for 2 weeks?
Atomicvege
BG&E and Godhand, both fine titles :)
Brian C.
i actually have an idea about a Kotaku Town Hall
tyler-LORDofDANCE
pac-man?
Brian C.
but that's for down the line
Brian C.
;)
Atomicvege
maybe something a little older
MTVERNON
huh. like a forum you mean?
Brian C.
sorta
CheapyD
pac-man championship edition
shaunomacx
Thats a good break anyway, so we can hold a discussion on the I <3 Kotaku facebook page about the next one
CmdrKeen
has entered the room
Brian C.
with a guess speaker
NYLatenite
Pac-Man CE perhaps, but only if Namco fulfills my dream and actually removes the time :)
Atomicvege
how about Super Metroid? :)
NYLatenite
timer too
CheapyD
ah, the timer is the best part
MTVERNON
yeah; the guest thing has been really coll
FloatingWorld
yeah super metroid would be awesome
MTVERNON
cool
shaunomacx
we could always discuss the decline of Arcade gaming
Brian C.
id like to sort of rotate between retail/indie and modern and retro
datafox
I think games that take under 15 hours might be best since it could be broken up in an easier manner.
brandon
yea—except a lot of people have played it to death
brandon
and have well formed opinions
CheapyD
you can't remove the talking pie, the pie is the heart
Ginko
has entered the room
Brian C.
yeah, part of the idea of this is the concept of mutual discovery
Atomicvege
yeah... the last thing you need in a games discussion is "thing game has no flaws! you are stupid! lol".... but with worse typing skills =/
FloatingWorld
pyschonauts?
MTVERNON
i'd suggest a running list of upcoming titles (3-5 items long)
Brian C.
that we're experiencing the game together, in a sense
Brian C.
like those old NBC commercials
MTVERNON
people would use it to get the jump on what's next

Don't forget. Our last meeting for the Mr. Robot edition of Game Club is Thursday. This time around you'll need to complete the game, which really shouldn't take that much longer if you've been keeping up.

Feel free to make any suggestions about formatting for Game Club here. Our next meeting isn't till Thursday night so we have time. Also, if you missed the first or second meetings, you can still jump into the discussion over in the transcript we posted from the event.

Don't forget. Our last meeting for the Mr. Robot edition of Game Club is next Thursday. This time around you'll need to complete the game, which really shouldn't take that much longer if you've been keeping up.

Feel free to make any suggestions about formatting for Game Club here. Our next meeting isn't till Thursday night so we have time. Also, if you missed the first or second meetings, you can still jump into the discussion over in the transcript we posted from the event.

First Discussion
Second Discussion

OK, time to kick off discussion number two for Mr. Robot. Hit up the link below to join in the campfire. Remember this time around we are discussing the game up to the end of the cryo room. MTV's Stephen Totilo was kind enough to drop by to help in the discussion. So get your questions ready and hop on the link. If the room is full please follow along here, I'll be keeping an eye on the discussion and trying to post questions from here into the room.

Campfire

The Discussion

Brian C.
Let's start things off with Stephen Totilo, who missed the first meeting, but has been striving to catch up.

stephentotilo
So I've been trying to catch up to where you guys are, and, honestly, I'm not there. The clock says I'm 9 hours in. I didn't start the game until this past weekend, but I was committed to plunge in. I knew nothing about Mr. Robot. I was all eager. I downloaded, installed, was good to go, started playing and... 30 seconds in, I'm thinking: "You guys are making me play a game full of block puzzles?" I can be something of a video game snob, and I believe that, like all mediums, games have their cliches. And I'm very much of a mindset that cliches should be eliminated or kept to a minimum. Block puzzles? That to me is a game design cliche. It feels old-fashioned. And I think they should be left behind. The counter-argument is that block-puzzles and other old-school design elements are classic staples and should continue. What do you guys think? Kill off the cliches? Or cherish the old staples?

Brian C.
While that's a good point, I don't think cliches are necessarily a bad thing. Take for instance Everyday Shooter. It takes a very cliched genre, if you will, and turns into something spectacular. I think sometimes cliches can work to your advantage in sending a message if you're aware of it to begin with.

FloatingWorld
Although I think they are somewhat cliche, I would also say that they aren't often visited in more modern iterations of gaming, or even puzzle titles. It's nice to revisit these old staples in a new light. I also think Mr. Robot genuinely does some things with blocks that have never been done.

On top of that, the mix of jrpg elements is something I hadn't seen, and I've really come to appreciate the things the devs tried to do with this title.

DaveKap
Like all good things, I believe games require balance. Like you said, what a cliche is to you could be a classic staple to someone else. If a game is consisting only of new gameplay elements, a player may feel completely lost and have no connection to previous games they've played. If it's just all cliches, it can feel stale and uninnovative.

Mr. Robot does an odd job of this and more or less mixes 2 stale concepts, RPG play and block puzzles, to create a hybrid... stale game.

I think if it added its own little innovation into the game to counter-act the stale cliche pieces, then it may have achieved a better rating from me. ;)

Atomicvege
I felt that the game was reminiscent of old puzzle games like The Adventures of Lolo, and like it, there's a mix of block pushing and enemy evasion. Add in the isometric platforming and the RPG segments and you've got an original game based on conventional gaming roots

jpnance
I think it's too easy to trivialize a game down to "block puzzles" and overlook it as a tired paradigm. Anything could be done this way ("first-person shooters", anyone?). You could have a million different sudoku games on the market but there would be a few which were clearly better than the others, thanks to presentation and design. Cliches aren't really a problem, in my opinion; it's the presentation — and, along with that, the story — which allows a game to transcend those labels.

NYLatenite
I think it all depends on how it's done. If a game isn't adding anything to a genre - especially one that is growing stale, then there really isn't much room for it. But when you look at something like Mr. Robot where it's taking that one genre and combining it with others (JRPGs and Platformers in this case) then even an old genre can work out, because each of the genres can be used to give the player a change of pace before they get that "been there, done that" feeling. In my case, I absolutely cannot stand platformers, so it was almost a relief each time one of the box puzzle aspects or JRPG style battles took precedence.

Atomicvege
i'm just wondering if story and presentation really are the only mechanic that can transcend a cliche gameplay convention

Brian C.
I don't think so. I think a game can just be a polisher, very polished form of its particular type of game. Take, for instance, first-person shooters. That has got to be the most cliched gaming genre around. But games still come out almost annually that are either the best of that type or so good they transcend their genre.

stephentotilo
The reason I started off with this is because I was surprised at how much you guys discussed story and plot in the first exchange, much more than you talked about gameplay. As I played the game, I couldn't stop thinking about the gameplay, because it was front and center and it was, very often, driving me up the wall. I felt like what I was doing in this game was all stuff I had done before, and that much of my failure at these puzzles would be due to control issues that I've seen rectified in other games. I tried to temper my reaction with the notion that this is an indie game and I should cut the team some slack, but I really couldn't get around my problems with the gameplay. I liked the setting. I liked the aesthetics. But the gameplay felt like it was too full of old problems and only succeeded in old ways. That's why it felt cliche. It was all so familiar. I wondered if the gameplay struck you guys differently, if it sparkled to you in some way that I either overlooked or haven't experienced yet.

Dilan M.
In response to NYLatenite, I believe mixtures can be just as good as they can be bad. For me, the inclusion of both, led to neither aspect being truly great. It was a segment of boring block moving, to a segment of boring JRPG, where nothing is truly challenging in the end. Either I am moving a block, or I am attacking some program. In the end, I am not having much fun doing either since it is the same old, same old. A part of me feels that if one were more focused than the other, I would have had fun with some brilliant block puzzles, or just with some great JRPG.

Brian C.
One thing I raised in the first discussion was the possibility that the forced perspective, the harsh saves and the touchy controls could all be deliberate attempts by the developer to reinforce the game's theme of control.

FloatingWorld
Stephen just touched on it some, but I wanted to ask whether we should be more lenient regarding the shortcomings of the game because it is an indie game. Aren't some of the things they were able to pull off as an indie studio pretty amazing, considering? I would have to agree that some of the control issues are frustrating, but it may have been an issue that later in development, an indie studio doesn't have the means to go back and rectify, in hindsight. I think the look, and general mechanics are pretty robust when considering the limitations a smaller studio has to deal with.

jpnance
I'd say Stephen's experience so far was my own. The downfall to the Game Club concept is that I don't any of us can really be sure if we'd have bothered to persist through the game were it not the object of a later discussion. That said, although I encountered a lot of frustration in the first assignment, once I got the hang of the (admittedly spotty) controls and platforming, I found that it really wasn't a huge hindrance and that I was having fun going from room to room. I agree that it's not the most challenging game around — and especially that frustration in the early segments seemed to serve AS the challenge — but it's no longer a huge chore to progress.

MTVERNON
Personally, I found Mr. Robot's block puzzles to be pretty different from most of the ones I'd experienced before. Thing is, you've got your isometric grid, but Asimov has pretty much total freedom of movement; he never "locks in" to his surroundings. The blocks do snap to certain spots, but they aren't so bound as in most block-oriented game environments. As a result, I kept coming up with what felt like weird, unnatural solutions that I hadn't originally envisioned, and that wouldn't have worked in a game with more rigid constraints. It kept me guessing, and I surprised myself more than once. It definitely lent to the fun and breathed some life into an extremely tired play mechanic.

Luke P.
Touching on Stephen's question...well, 99% of games are cliched. Think that's why we discussed the story so much. When a game presents so many rudimentary elements, like sliding blocks around, it's not so much the puzzles themselves as the context they're placed in that can push someone on.

tyler-LORDofDANCE
I agree with stephentotilo to a certain extent. A lot of times I would get extremely frustrated by the simplest jumps. However, I would have a great sense of accomplishment after I completed a particular puzzle. It was a real love/hate relationship. I did enjoy the Lemmings ripoff. It mixed up the gameplay and I wasn't nearly as frustrated with this week's assignment. I wish the developer's mixed it up more from the start.

jpnance
I completely agree with MTVERNON. There's something about that feeling that you came up with a somewhat unique solution that makes the game more appealing. Certainly the fundamental solutions to nearly all of the puzzles are identical but just a few pixels of difference between my solution and yours goes a long way.

stephentotilo
Luke, hang on a sec. Are you saying that you're willing to tolerate redundant gameplay in an FPS, RPG, whatever, just because you feel redundant gameplay is a given? Really? Maybe we're all just too forgiving of being given the same-old, same-old to do in FPS after FPS or RPG after RPG. I'm sick of getting the boomerang in Zelda. I'm sick of fighting giant heads and hands as bosses. I'm sick of so many cliches. But you sound like your settling. Say it ain't so! Don't let developers off the hook

FloatingWorld
Well you all saw my out of turn question earlier, and I just wanted to see if anyone had a word or two to say about it. Basically I was wondering if we should be more lenient regarding the shortcomings of the game because it is an indie game. Aren't some of the things they were able to pull off as an indie studio pretty amazing, considering? I would have to agree that some of the control issues are frustrating, but it may have been an issue that later in development, an indie studio doesn't have the means to go back and rectify, in hindsight. So again, is this something we should take into consideration when looking at the game?

Atomicvege
Stephen: But isn't the very idea of games from their start to complete similar tasks over and over again till the end? I mean story is there to drive you through but i've really not seen many examples of games ever breaking out of this cycle

Luke P.
Oh, I'm not letting developers off the hook. Just saying that at their very core, stripping away the visceral pleasures of playing a game (sound, rumble, graphics) the challenges presented to us as gamers are often quite rudimentary. A test of reflexes, a puzzle, a test of concentration, of endurance...very simple tests. It's often what those tasks are dressed in that makes them great. Half-Life 2, Ico, Zelda...you remember the world as much as the actual challenges presented to you, and it's that world and their characters that drive you to complete the tasks.

nic
stephen... what if they took the boomerang out of zelda? would the players not be upset because it set a standard for that series? Players have come to expect certain things within certain genres or series. Yes we maybe tired of the cliche's but as playerts we do ahve expectations. ANother thing that developers are facing is that, "what makes money?" If players find a game similar ot gears of war, bingo instant money

Dilan M.
I have to agree with Luke. Most games can be stripped down to the same ideas. We can't expect developers to come up with a brilliant new gameplay mechanic in every game. If we did, we probably wouldn't get the same number of games as we do (which could be good or bad). But the story itself is what pushes us through the puzzles. We want to know what happens next. That is why I have a problem with Mr. Robot at first. In the beginning, I was actively interested in what is going on, and what will happen to Asimov. Now, I am utterly confused at the plotline, and have no idea what I am trying to do, or who I am trying to save. I have no active investment in seeing Asimov win, which makes these puzzles every bit more monotonous. If I did understand and actually cared for Asimov, I might enjoy the puzzles a lot more.

Brian C.
I think Luke has a very good point. Cliches aren't really about the mechanics as much as they are about the things that hide those mechanics. Gaming is about play, and the way we play, at its most basic form, is pretty set in stone. I had a friend, a literary friend, who once told me that she believe all authors only had one good book in them, that everything they wrote was either that good book or their attempts at creating it or recreating it. I believe the same could be said of games. There are only so many ways to tell a story or present fun or play.

FloatingWorld
I think that's a great point Brian. I'd say Dostoyevsky (sp) wrote Crime & Punishment four times over, and its certainly seen in the gaming world as well. Sure play mechanics will improve and we'll see things that we "think" are new to the gaming world, but they're just old, tired play mechanics with a flashy facade. To quote the Bible, "There is nothing new under the sun." (Ecclesiastes)

tyler-LORDofDANCE
Crecente makes a great point. One of my old English teachers used to say that there are only a few stories in the world. Authors just disguise and retell them. Games may be like this gameplay wise, but I think they have one advantage: they are active entertainment and they combine storytelling with other elements.

NYLatenite
For me, the game has gotten infinitely more interesting following the plot twist towards the end of the first act and the start of the second. I like the fact that as Asimov begins to realize that he is sentient, his worldview is changing. When Zemanova reveals herself and states that Zelda was deleted, he responds by stating "She wasn't deleted, she's dead" - an affirmation that he now believes he and his fellow robots are truly alive. You can almost call it his growing up, even evidenced by teenage angst as he begins to project his feelings of both loss and confusion by lashing out (as evidenced when he remarks to Zemanova/Zelda that "we're just robots to you, right?" (or something to that extent). As this second act ended, I now wonder just what EVE will do when power is transferred to her - will the freedom from HEL cause her corruption as well? What I'm saying in a roundabout way, is that in these shorter segments where the plot moves at the same pace as the game, the games strength in making you think begins to shine, and really does outstrip some of the tiredness and frustrations of it's gameplay.

Naerbnic
Considering FloatingWorld's last comment, it's true that it's rare to see a genuinely new gameplay element, but we very often see the evolution of existing ones. They join up, merge, and split apart into new genres and approaches.

tyler-LORDofDANCE
NYLatenite touches on something I noticed. I found it extremely interesting that Asimov stated that HEL had just committed murder. It just stuck in my mind as something you wouldn't normally see.

Merus
I don't think block puzzles in and of themselves are cliche - but block puzzles usually end up meaning only a couple of interactions without any variation: push the block one/many squares in one direction, and if it gets stuck on a wall then you can't push it back. Even when the game's 3D and the character can move diagonally, and can get their virtual hands in the tiniest of cracks, they can't PUSH diagonally, and they can't wedge the blocks off walls.

There's also the problem that block puzzles are rarely used for anything other than Sokoban: push the block to this pre-defined position. They're almost perfect, movable cover (which gets explored a bit earlier in the game with those killbots that beeline towards you) and they're almost never used like that.

FloatingWorld
I agree Naer, but even the most primitive gaming idea, pong, is easily taken from real-life tennis. Not to get too far off on a tangent, but I think it's interesting that gaming situations have now entered real-life via ridiculous Japanese game shows...like Banzai. hah.

Dilan M.
Going along with Merus, I think he brings up a very good point in games. While every game requires a certain suspension of belief, there always still a certain amount of logical rules that you expect the world to follow. Like Merus said, you would expect these robots to push diagonally. For me, I also noticed that you couldn't get the nanobots to turn left by putting yourself in the path. Another one most of us can relate to, is why can't this character jump to that ledge. Should we just expect these facts that our characters can't do simple things, or should we push developers to account for their laziness?

Brian C.
I want to ask a question. I happened to save Samson earlier on in the game, so he was around in the Cryo chapter to sacrifice his.. life? for me. But did anyone not save him? If so what happened for you during that early level, the one with the wall of spikes?

It's interesting also, because it's this scene, when Samson dies, that Asimov questions Zelda's statement about life and death.

Dilan M.
I saved Samson, but I decided to see what would happen if I turned back. Essentially, there is a little cabinet where you get some pass key. I figure it opens some door that lets you come from where Samson came.

You can go back and get it, and explore around, but I didn't really have the time to.

Atomicvege
In regards to that, a friend of mine believes that it is possible to save Samson from the compactor... though this is unsubstantiated =/

Brian C.
It raises an interesting problem that only games face. The plot is directly effected by the choices the gamers make. Do you save Samson? If not are you missing out on an important point of the game?

NYLatenite
I'm not sure if it is possible to not save Samson as he's needed to get through the very next door. I think leaving him behind just isn't an option - however, you do have the option of choosing whether or not to save Brutus (saving him gives you his Ghost) and I am interested to see if that choice will have any bearing on the end of the game.

tyler-LORDofDANCE
I feel like I'm bound to be disappointed by this story. I've analyzed it and I'm sure that it could have a great ending, but it just seems too loose for me. The references to God could lead to a great story, but it doesn't seem like it's headed that way.

jpnance
In this particular game, I'm not sure there really are multiple threads of play. In general, though, I tend to think that sort of game design sort of flawed. Yes, you afford the gamer a fuller illusion that they exist truly as a part of the game, but is such a thing really worth it if it happens just once or twice for minor plot points in the game? I'm thinking of the Fire Emblem games which really make the whole experience about preserving your party and always understanding the risk in losing one of them — for those games, it's not simply a gimmick but rather The Point.

Naerbnic
Generally branching in games is one of three types: Either you have a branch towards the end which changes the precise ending you get, a change earlier in the game which has no ultimate effect (e.g. Farenhiet/Indigo Prophecy), or one "true" ending and a bunch of poorly thought out alternatives. Sometimes a combination of two of these. The question is, do any of these have any interesting narrative abilities on top of other forms of media, or are there other forms which I'm not thinking of?

FloatingWorld
I tend to agree with you Tyler. I think there were too many lost opportunities for story advancement in the portion after the intro. It really muddied the story, and I think soured it for a lot of players. At this rate, I don't think there's enough playtime left to do the story the justice that could've been done. A missed opportunity, but perhaps even the fact that we want to see the story reach its potential IS a success on Moonpod's part.

nic
There is an interesting article/presentation by Brian Moriarty titled "Listen: The Potential of Shared Hallucinations". In this he talks about a game's harmony and how easy it can break vs how hard it is to build. It relates to a few user's comments because we expect a certain action out of a robot but are not able to get it. How would it have changed the game if we were able to move in certain movements or have nano-machines follow our every movements?

Jackal888
This game has too many jumping puzzles to be an isometric game.Add in the fact that you are very fragile, this game gets a bad design score from me.

Brian C.
OK, that's it folks, thanks a ton for joining us

PS. I know haberdashery doesn't make sense, but I like using the word, besides I'm sure at least one person will be signing in from a store.

Don't forget. We meet again to discuss assignment two of Mr. Robot. This time around you're supposed to play through the Cryo level and return once more to the holo deck. This section should take about two hours, it seems. Much better than the 11 or so it took to complete that first section.

Feel free to make any suggestions about formatting for Game Club here. Our next meeting isn't till Thursday night so we have time. Also, if you missed the first meeting, you can still jump into the discussion over in the transcript we posted from the event.

Mr. Robot Discussion

This is it. The first discussion meeting for Game Club's Mr. Robot.

If you haven't been following along we've decided to play through the indie PC game Mr. Robot as a group. To join in you can either try to enter our campfire or just hit the jump and follow along with the discussion going on in there. We will be updating this post as the discussion unfolds. Feel free to talk about the game in the comments, but please try to keep to the rules.

Which are these:

Once in the room, I think I'm going to use another IM system to let people IM me to either raise their hands, digitally speaking. I'll tell people in the IM when they can talk in the campfire room. The idea here is that we don't want a few dozen people all trying to talk about the game at the same time. So, I hope we can get someone to ask an intelligent question and then take turns discussing it. Remember this is a work in progress so we'll make tweaks to the mechanics of how this works as we proceed.

A cardinal rule will be that there will be no off-topic talking, no trolling, no flame wars, no fan-boyism in the campfire chat or the person will be kicked out. We're all intelligent people, I don't see why we can't act like we are when gathered together online.

In general the idea is for people to discuss the current video game in a thoughtful and meaningful way. Why we won't totally disallow discussion of things like graphics and play mechanics, those particular topics should really be brought up in a way that addresses the deeper meaning and ideas presented in the game.

Hit the jump for the discussion and the link to join the campfire group.

The Game Club

To join our live chat just click on this link. If it's full you can always hang out here and join in the discussion as we update this post.

The Discussion

Brian C.
OK, I'll start off:
Do you think Moonpod's decision to use an isometric point of view and puzzles gets in the way of delivering the story. I found that the sometimes very long gap between plot points sort of watered down my experience.

jpnance
You know, honestly, I've found that I really don't know what going on in the plot anymore, although I'm not sure it has to do with the isometric viewpoint. It just seems that the story is delivered in such an on-the-fly fashion it becomes really easy to miss details about it.

FloatingWorld
I agree with JP. The view didn't affect the story so much, as it did my accuracy in completing the puzzles. The long breaks certainly did deteriorate the story for me, though. I often found myself going back to the message log to figure out what I was even supposed to do once I reached the spot on the map. it's unfortunate, too, as I think the story is interesting, when it's actually incorporated in the game.

darkowl
Well, I don't believe so. The game is not, I feel, entirely about the story. It is reasonable to expect that not a lot is going to happen for a while - the story is there to support the environment and creates the framework for the puzzles which play out. Though one could wonder how the ship ever worked, if every room is just deadly problem after deadly problem... so much coolant...

Dukeman330
I found that Moonpod did a decent job of presenting the story given the resources and budget they had available. Detailed cut scenes would have been more engaging, but that probably wasn't feasible for the project. Perhaps it would have helped if they had stopped the action to allow the user to focus on the plot points, though.

JimElNino
Well I think this game is mostly about the gameplay, which makes sense coming from an indie developer. I'm not saying the story is unimportant but it seems to me that it's not the focus of the game. I definitely don't think the Isometric view point affects the story in any way, at least to me. I think the plot points could be spread out better, but I can forgive that given the circumstances. I do think that when the story takes center stage it is pretty neat and it has potential.

Brian C.
One thing I always try to do, when looking for deeper meaning in a game, is to look at the way the story is presented. I think it's interesting that a game that deals with issues of free will, religion and the greater good forces you to play from both a fixed perspective and one that looks down on the world, a sort of fourth person point of view.
Maybe we should talk a bit about the plot of the game, any thoughts on the storyline?

Tyler
I am really enjoying the story. I found it hard to keep up on what's going on at first, but the message log is very helpful. I came in expecting a cheesy sci-fi story but it's actually engaging. The twist at the end of the section is especially good.

NYLatenite
The pov and puzzles didn't get in the way of the story for me during the intro, but once you get past that, they really do start becoming a hindrance. The pov causes a lot of frustration in judging distance and orientation and the puzzles, while interesting, don't make much sense other than being there for the sake of going from one room to another. Take the water traps for example - what possible reason do they have for existing on the Eidolon? It all combines to create a break from any suspension of disbelief because you're either doing something for little reason or cursing at the game because you missed a jump or pushed a box a little too far and have to restart the room. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the puzzles, but the pacing of the story compared to the number of puzzles could be better. (second question answer (the storyline) to follow)

NYLatenite
As for the story itself, what intrigues me is the robots the humans have created. They took the route of creating servants that have the same failings, prejuduces and spirit as their masters - despite the fact that it is obviously a bad choice for am unsupervised long term caregiving trip.

Brian C.
That's an interesting point. I found, in particular, it very intriguing that early on in the game Eve is described as Hel's conscious and knowledge and that he has to give her power in exchange for that knowledge.

DaveKap
I'll reply to both questions asked. :)
The fact that the isometric view is static is the real problem. This gets in the way of trying to discern how the puzzles are supposed to work. Because the puzzles are harder to understand, they are more frustrating to complete. Add to this with the fact that once you finish one or two puzzles there are more puzzles waiting for you with few rewards between them and you start to see "story filler". This filler is used merely to justify defeating a puzzle and in the end hinders a real semblence of a thick plotline.

When the game started and it told me about the HEL9000 I instantly said "Okay so HEL is in charge and he's going to go crazy but because I'm a robot working for him I'll have some kind of internal conflict over whether or not to take his commands and that'll lead to some goofy adventure where we figure out that robots have souls yadda yadda yadda." And even though I was right... I'm still enjoying the little plot they made up. Though in the end it seems more like they built the plot around the game and not the other way around.

Desmo
Like darkowl said, I think the game engine was created first and the story was added later. I do believe the story is coming across though... somewhat slowly but I'm interested whenever a message box pops up. Things really picked up in the last room where where HEL was revealed to be more than just a computer program. But overall I would have to say that it's generic and somewhat predictable. Big guys picking on little guys... overlord figure gone bad... ghost in the machine. We've seen it all before. I'm enjoying it, but haven't had any deep soul searching moments yet.

Tex
I think the storyline is good and well done. But as everyone seems to agree on, it is to spread out making it hard to follow. It has the typical weak little guy saving the world motif going for it and that seems to make for a good, somewhat compelling, story. I agree with Latenite that the story and the puzzles don't go together. What kind of ship has corrosive liquid pooling around in mass quantities everywhere? It's interesting that the humans created robots to take care of this ship on this journey but they still feared that the robots would develop feelings and emotion. I agree with DaveKap that the plot was built around the game. I'm still interested in what happens to Asimov.

Kirth G.
Well, for me this game has a first impression of being young and carefree, almost for a 8-15 audience, but then the references begin to appear.. Very heavily influenced by SciFi themes and authors. Isaac Asimov being the highest influence so far. This include it's Robotics laws, the main character name and the terraforming mission like in his "Foundations" series. Of course it also touches the subject of what defines humankind or what are "feelings" love, hate, dream like Arthur C. Clarke did with 2001 (Hal 9000 anyone). It also touches our fear of being controlled again by our own creations (Matrix, or Mary Shelley's Frankenstein). The fun carefree side reminded me a lot of the movie Tron, the mini-games the sounds the whole "hacking" into a system and some of the goofy dialog that transpires between the characters.
The gameplay might get a little frustrating at the beginning, as mentioned before POV and controls (I had to use a gamepad for easy maneuvering my robot).
P.S. Please forgive my spelling english it's not my first language.
But don't get me wrong I have fully enjoyed the whole experience.

Brian C.
Did anyone pick up on Asimov's reaction to Zelda saying the word God? I thought that was interesting, it was almost as if he was saying that robots can have spirituality. And then later, at the end of the section there's talk of the humans being put inside the robots.

jpnance
To say nothing of the quality of the story, I found it sort of odd that the intro cinematic explicitly defined the robots as necessarily "emotionless" yet we've never seen them any other way. At first, I thought it was just sloppy writing but now, as we realize that robotic emotions are becoming the chief motivator of the story, it seems weird that we wouldn't actually see the evolution.

JimElNino
I am curious to see what role EVE will play in the game and whether or not she is the root cause of the issues on the ship. I'm not yet convinced that she is the innocent victim that she claims to be when you first meet her. I also think the sleeping crew provides an interesting backdrop for the events that are unfolding, the idea that a system put in place by the crew to watch over them during the voyage could actually be murdering them is both interesting and unnerving. It's not the most original story but it works well within the confines of the game world.

Brian C.
Good point Jim. Specifically, it reminds me that the game never really gets you emotionally invested in the humans of the ship. They are, for all intents and purposes, like luggage. Why should I care as Asimov that they might die?

FloatingWorld
I actually was going to mention what JP did, but if I may expound...
I believe the narrator mentioned that Hel would be worried if he was capable of such an emotion, yet its very obvious in the story that He/she/it is most certainly capable of emotion, as well as the robots on board. I don't mind the artistic freedom of implementing emotion into robots, yet I do have to gripe about the discrepancy, as I don't think we didn't see the evolution, I think it was simply an oversight.

Dark J.
I remember at the part where HEL tells you to recycle yourself and Zelda stops you, I went in the recycler anyways but I just spawned in the room again which ruined the story a bit. So to me, it seems that the story is more of an excuse to move from room to room. I did like how they twisted up some of the puzzles when they added elements like the big robot guy and when you had to roll that robot around. I agree about how annoying it is that the isometric view is static and you can't rotate it. It is especially annoying when doing jumping puzzles.

Tyler
In response to BC's point. It's almost like the exact opposite of most media. The humans are disposable and the robots are who you become attached to.

DaveKap
It was pretty easy to pick up on Asimov's reaction to Zelda saying "God" because I myself actually reacted to it. So much so that when I read it, I kinda sat there and thought out loud, "God? What is she talking about? That makes no sense for a robot to talk about God." Then I go ahead and further the dialogue only to see Asimov reacting the same way. Did a good job of rattling me a little bit as it felt like a fourth-wall breaking.

MTVERNON
(br00tusv4)I found it interesting that Zelda reacted with (what I seem to remember being) curiosity when Asimov mentioned death. The fact that she brushed off "thank God" as "just an expression" had me
assuming that she might not have much notion of either concept. I'm undecided as to how much stock we should put in the robots as emotional beings.

Tex
I didn't think anything about the word "God" when it was mentioned. Humans programed these robots so they may have programed that kind of language.
...while humans are secondary to the story we can't forget that they still made these robots.

Kirth G.
If we keep on analyzing this, we can see that there is too much actually to say that it was a "glitch" in the main story. Maybe the developers are toying with us. Asimov since the beginning has show quite an array of emotions making his colleagues to question it's behavior. But at the same time he is amazed by Zelda reference to "God". I feel that all this is on purpose.

Podcastauto has a question:
How many influences on the developers could you spot? Things like Asimov being an author, Raistlin a figure from DragonLance books, Zelda from games, etc.

Brian C.
I personally thought the choice of Zelda as a name was bizarre. It didn't seem to add anything to the story and keeps distracting me.

Luke P.
I actually found the references a little off-putting. Little too obvious. Call your thinking robot Asimov and your heroine Zelda and it just throws you off, like swatting a fly with a sledgehammer

Tyler
I don't think we can judge the story quite yet. At the end it we could find that the developers created a masterpiece where we were led along believing that they were throwing random things in. Or it could really be just random things thrown in

MTVERNON
The name's definitely have me intrigued; so many of them are loaded with meaning. Raistlin, in particular, surprised me. And then there's Energon, an alternacurrency. Not to mention enemies that are reminiscent of robots from movies like Short Circuit and The Black Hole. It all has me wondering just how much of this game's meaning will be derived from references, popular culture and otherwise.

jpnance
I agree with Brian that those names (especially "Zelda") feel a bit out of place, especially when you consider that most of the ghosts have sufficiently made-up-sounding labels. It would seem to indicate that they COULD have given the characters original names but chose not to for a specific reason.

Kirth G.
As influences go I noted Isaac Asimov (foundations series, robotic laws), Tron (master control, hacking into the system), Transformers (energon cubes, humor), Arthur C. Clarke (2001 Space Odissey, someone killing the crew who is on suspended state), Black hole robots etc. I did not find the Zelda reference as being particulary distracting (Zelda's Prisoner but who is the prisoner, you or the humans in cryo?.).
I meant of course the robots.

Luke P.
See, MTVERNON, I think that's the danger in reading too much into a game like this. It's a small-time puzzler/RPG. The plot, while interesting on a broader level, is quite derivative and poorly communicated. Reading deeply into every line or event could lead you nowhere, since in the end they're just words propelling you from one puzzle/conflict to the next, not part of some grand, sweeping narrative.

MTVERNON
I totally agree, Luke; it kind of allows you to make excuses and/or enrich the narrative on false pretenses. It's a distraction. Though maybe the developers will have justified it by the game's end.

Brian C.
And that's the jaded point of view. While Luke is mostly likely right, where's the fun in that? I'd much rather try to turn every bug and puzzle into some thoughtful representation of deeper meaning. Maybe the lack of saves is representative of an uncaring God. Maybe the abundance of robot destroying liquids is really meant to illustrate the United State's dependence on oil. See, it's fun!

NYLatenite
I also think another problem with the names is that in many ways they define the roles of each character. Asimov, for want of a better term, is the voice of reason, HEL is referred to as the Master Control Program in the introduction - both names of which were programs with massive rampancy issues, Zelda is the female character and friend of the protagonist who early on is in need of rescuing, Samson is a huge strong robot, etc. It's almost like telegraphing what a character's role in the game is before that information really should be learned.

JimElNino
To comment on what Luke said, I think it is important to keep in mind that nearly every small time developer tries to make a name for themselves with gameplay, and I think that is the case with this game. I still think we can judge and analyze the finer points of the story, but we should keep some perspective while doing so.

DaveKap asks:
How does the use of recognizable names for key characters affect your opinion of the game? Does having all the references make you think it's cute, take away from the believability, force you into pre-conceived notions as to what the characters will be like (as it did for me)?

FloatingWorld
I would say that it takes away from the believability. It's just too derivative. But the question one has to ask themselves is; with characters that are so derivative and reliant upon reference, did the developers ever intend for us to immerse ourselves into the storyline?
Not to say that we can't look further in, but I think the developers only ever intended for its players to take the story at face value

Tex
The names while recognizable are what they are, names. I don't think there is deeper meaning. One can say that the developers chose those names because they wanted to use names from science fiction and fantasy to provide some aspect of familiarity for the player. Or they might have needed names and chose randomly. We will have to see what happens to Asimov and whether there is an correlation to the other stories these names are from. that will be interesting to explore later.
and look, here I found a deeper meaning to the names....huh.

Brian C.
OK, so lets talk about the actual gameplay for a bit. I was sorta fascinated with how Asimov dies (repeatedly at my hands). For a main character, your character, his death is very sudden. I found that it often startled and sometimes angered me. I'd be at the ass end of a long series of painfully hard jumps and maneuvers only to have Asimov disintegrate. It's sort of like having a firecracker go off in your hand, but with less blood. Do you think this is meant to have meaning or was just the result of fast coding?

darkowl
I think it was neither. To me both the platforming and JRPG hack sections were a throwback to those games from the 80s and 90s where the difficulty was high - they were a real challenge, and a real reward.

DaveKap
I think the developers played a lot of Super Mario Sunshine. If you've played the game, you'll know that the bonus stages consist of you maneuvering Mario in some difficult manner over intricately placed obstacles only to, most likely, die many times in the process forcing you to restart the stage. This wasn't the first game to do it and it obviously isn't the last, but there are certain types of players who see this as a challenge to overcome while other players will see it as a frustrating experience. I personally felt it was frustrating but can understand how some may find it fun. In the end, I don't believe there's any true meaning to it, but I doubt it's poor coding either. In the end, it's merely the way the game was meant to be played in order to not be a simple "walk to the right side of the screen -> win" kind of game.

Luke P.
I actually enjoyed it. I thought the way they dealt with his "existence", ie you can store his memory and just get new bodies for him, took a lot of the frustration out of it. I think because you never got the impression you were ACTUALLY KILLING him, every repeat felt like a continuation of the same attempt, not a reboot. "Oh, that body's gone? Get him a new one and let's try that again".

NYLatenite
I think for one, it's there to add challenge. I you respawned at the exact point of death, the game would be over in a far shorter time. What annoyed me was how a lot of times it was simple things that shouldn't happen that caused those deaths or the need to reset the level. I can push a box, but not pull?, etc. It probably didn't help that I was using a gamepad to play (360 wired) where the analog stick isn't quite ideal for the controls.

FloatingWorld
While some of the puzzles rooms are rip-out-your-hair hard, I could see the developers throwing us a bone every once in awhile. For example, in the room where you get one of the leg servos, the one with the platforms that disappear, once you actually reached those platforms, the rising/falling platforms activated, saving you the heartache of starting ALL the way over. It's almost as if they say "we know, we know...here's a little help." In that way I know the difficulty is there on purpose, but they try to appease in small ways. I appreciate that.

Tyler
I think that the margin for error was the most frustrating part. It was minuscule in most places and the slightest bump plunged me to my death. The rising water puzzles are the biggest offenders of this. Even if you completed 90% of the puzzle and just messed up on the last jump, you were screwed. As I was time and time again.

JimElNino
Well on one hand he is a robot, so it does make sense that he violently explodes (video game sense at least). I agree with you in that the sudden deaths startled me a few times. Is that intentional, I can't really say with any confidence either way. I will say that I think the devs put too much care into the look and feel of this game to simply get lazy with the main characters death animation, so I don't think that is the case. Think of it this way, if it was the other extreme and he just sort of stops moving in an animation that takes 15 seconds, would that be better?

Podcastauto asks:
Potential questions - Would better graphics make this a better game? Is the game itself worth $25? (I believe the game+gameclub is worth $15, but not $25 to play it alone.) How many secret areas have you found?
personally, i loved the graphics, there were a few minor graphic bugs, but the over the top lighting and compact feel of the game were perfect for the experience I was expecting

jpnance
This sort of gets to a question I was hoping to bring up. We've gotten so used to the idea that games made these days are getting to be too easy but should it be acceptable for poor implementation to add to the difficulty of a game? At what point do we decide that these boxes are just way too easily moved and not that the developers thought a high sensitivity would make for a good challenge? Specifically, I'm reminded of the original Final Fantasy's "Ineffective!" message whenever you'd have an attack queued up for an enemy defeated earlier in the round.

Luke P.
Don't think it's worth $25, there's not enough polish on it for that. $15 is a sweet price for this, $20 at a stretch if it came in a nice box :) The graphics were great, though. Loved the lighting, especially in the darker sections, it was a lot more atmosphereic than I was expecting.

Brian C.
OH, jpnance touches on one of my very, very, very favorite subjects. I've long held that gamers are in need of some major tough love. I'm so tired of the endless auto-saves that allow you to baby-step your way through a game, no matter how difficult. And don't even get me started on MMOs. I spent much of E3 trying to convince devs at Blizzard, SOE and others that they need to institute permanent death in MMOS. You die in a game, it's over. But I digress...

DaveKap
I love the style of the game, both in and out of hacking. The way the enemies warp or explode makes for a satisfying experience while the lighting effects and textures looked really slick. I'd have to say the only thing that could have used work was the UI, as it currently not only looks poor, but is poorly built and accessed as well. It feels like a $15 game but not a $25 game, primarily because the experience doesn't feel very rewarding or as enjoyable as other $25 games I've purchased in the past. I've found about three secret areas and I don't think I would have gotten as far as I have without them. I dare say they shouldn't be secret because they're practically necessary to advance.

JimElNino
I think the graphics are actually really good for this type of game, they seem very crisp and there are very very few ugly textures. The lighting is more than adequate and the animations get the job done. I'd pay $25 for this game, I almost feel like I owe them the rest of their money actually. Hell, with the $10 "next-gen tax" any game under $30 is a steal nowadays. I have only found one secret area, and it wasn't very hard to find.

Brian C.
Darkowl and Br00tusv4 both want to talk about the differences between the game's isometric puzzle elements and its JRPG elements.

br00tusv4: I'm curious to see what everyone thinks about the relationship between our isometric POV and the vaguely top-down "hacking" segments.

Darkowl: The turn-based ghost hacking is a strong contrast to the real-time isometric platforming. Do you feel that this inclusion of such contrasting styles provides for a more rounded game experience (both world and gameplay) compared with the game just having focussed one or the other?

FloatingWorld
As someone who grew up on JRPG's, the battle sessions are a breath of fresh air. Though I can completely understand that some who have expressed dislike for these portions. I'm surprised at the amount of depth in skills, and the well-executed manner in which you engage. Combined with heavy puzzle elements, I really think the developers produced something original in Mr. Robot, gameplay wise.

JimElNino
I think for a game to blend/cross different genres when it comes to gameplay, each genre has to be done well, and I think this game does a great job with that. It's definitely more of a platformer/puzzler than it is an RPG, but the RPG elements don't feel tacked on to me at all.

Tyler
If this game didn't have the JRPG system in it, I wouldn't enjoy it as much as I do now. It really gives me a break from the excruciating puzzles.

Brian C.
Amen! :)

jpnance
I disagree with Jim. The hacking segments seem like a total chore in that you just go around searching for the stuff to kill. There's a little bit of strategy involved in the battles but none of them have been especially intensive. It really feels to make like I just sort of meander around the capacitors and have to find whichever enemies need killing.

MTVERNON
The change in perspective from isometric to JRPG is interesting to me because I think it says something about Asimov's character. Only I'm not sure what. Maybe the "hacking" segments speak to the robotic side of him, the one that wants logic and order? While the iso. bits represent Asimov's human-like emotions?

Brian C.
OK, folks I think that's it. Feel free to talk without raising hands now. First, I wanted to thank you all for taking the time to help with this experiment and I look forward to talking a bit more about it next Thursday. The next assignment will be to make it through the cryo chapter. For now, I wanted to ask everyone what they thought. How should we change things? Did this work for you?

Wow, it's like college all over again. I was up till 3:30 this morning cramming for our Mr. Robot Game Club, I suspect I wasn't the only one. Having nearly played through the first assignment, I can attest that there is no way in hell this is an eight hour game. Which is a good thing. My wife, suspicious that she may have married a lackluster gamer, is suspicious that perhaps I just suck at Mr. Robot, but I'm assuming those of you playing along have noticed that the game is much longer than we originally thought.... someone... anyone?

Oh, I noticed some questions about where to stop. I've included the above screenshot of the hub room to help you out. Remember you're going to want to play through the intro, which ends at the hub room, and then through the Storage level until you get back to the hub room. Yes, that takes foreverrrrrrrrrr. The last two levels, which we will break up into separate assignments, are through those two other doors. Don't go through them, not yet.

We will be meeting tonight at 9:30 p.m. Eastern. Just come to the site and look for the Game Club Mr Robot Discussion post. And bring smarty-pants questions and an open, thoughtful mind.

Don't forget: This is the first week of Game Club. If you're interested in playing through a game along side a group of friends and then discussing the deeper meaning of the game and its plot, don't forget to hop in.

It's definitely not too late to catch up. Just read through the rules and the first assignment for Mr. Robot and then use our 40 percent discount code (found in the Rules entry) to pick up the game and do your assignment by this Thursday. See you then.

Game Club [Kotaku]