As the 360 and PC are apparently very similar to program for, I can see why they don't want to bother with the PS3. Why have to learn a totally different system and probably still have a ton of problems after release when you can focus all resources on a PC and 360 version and just get those out the door with minimal issue?
And like 20 other developers have complained about the PS3 development as well. #valve
@KefkaticFanatic: The thing is that there are optimization tricks that you can only learn from having worked on the PS3 that aren't obvious from working with the regular PC architecture. For example, when you program for the PC or 360, you normally don't think too much about what processes/threads to spin off. With the PS3, you have to actively think about that and program it into the code. Once you learned/realized what you can spin off from the main program, you can repeat that to a certain degree on a multi-core CPU with the 360/PC. #valve
@PoweredByHentai: Key phrase there is "to a certain degree." Programming for the PS3 is like learning a whole new language, with completely different grammar, word meanings, and syntax.
Learning fluent German may have improved my English, but not by very much. #valve
@Paul_Is_Drunk: Not exactly. It'd be more akin to learning Lisp and then using that level of understanding on your everyday duties in Java or C++.
Or put it another way, it'd be more like learning Latin and then applying that knowledge to the major European languages. You may not know every word in the English dictionary but having learned Latin, you're essentially better prepared to deal with words that you've never seen in your life on the SAT/GRE because of the root words that are based on Latin. #valve
@PoweredByHentai: Well, English is a German derived language, with a wide spattering of French (from the Norman conquest) and Latin, and honestly I aced the SAT back when it was 1600 was still the top score without learning any Latin, but I do see your point. #valve
@Paul_Is_Drunk: Didn't know english was german derived, i guess i was deceived all my life.
Programming for the PS3 is very much like programming for Windows and then porting the same program to Mac System Classic, the architecture, the design principles, it's all very different.
Where as programming for a 360 is the same as for a PC and programming for the Wii is very much the same as for a PPC unix system (Mac OS8 to OSX pre-intel to continue the mac comparison xD) #valve
@xilefian: Really? The Anglo-Saxons were Germanic tribes, and lower Saxony is still a state in Germany today. Old English took many of its strong conjugations from altmodisch German.
I think this is pretty well known, so I don't know if you were so much deceived, as it is one of those weird facts that somehow eludes you. I know that's happened to me a few times, though I can't think of any examples off the top of my head. #valve
@KefkaticFanatic: I think the real issue is less what they choose to support, but more how they present themselves about it. It's fine to leave the PS3 out of it, it's fine to make comments as to why, but if they keep coming back to the topic and slagging the system, it just makes them sound like a bunch of whiny amateurs, and of course it's going to upset that player base too. At this point, Valve has a reputation for it. They could have just said "it's too hard for us - it'd take too many resources for the return we'd make" and leave it at that.
Instead, Newell comes out and says the PS3 is [news.teamxbox.com] or "a waste of everyone's time" and just comes off sounding ignorant and fanboyish when you look at all the developers who don't have these issues with the system, and can make a game that actually runs smoothly and properly on it. There are other companies who don't support the system, but they don't make a big show of it and badmouth it just because they can't handle it.
@fuchikoma: I actually wouldn't call it fanboyism, but more arrogance. I interpret it as "it would be a waste of time for us to have to port it over to the PS3 as the sales would be less plus we're already making shitloads of money so who cares?"
Wow, Pitchford is starting a side business just bashing Valve, it seems.
Anyway, what the crap does this jackhole's opinion matter regarding Valve and the PS3 anyway? Maybe he and his company should pay more attention to how their products work on which platforms (*cough*Borderlands*cough*PC) before he goes about throwing stones. #valve
@Slander: Wow Lombardi and Faliszek are starting a side business just bashing the PS3 it seems.
Anyway, what the crap do these jackhole's opinions matter regarding the PS3. Maybe their company and them should just learn to shut their mouths instead of alienating an entire demographic of gamers. (*cough* See it works both *cough* ways.) and quit dicking around and make HL2 Ep 3. #valve
@Ozymandias: Promoting entire thread just to show that both companies are acting like babies. Thanks for the rhetoric and the counter-example, fellas! #valve
Look, Valve and World of Warcraft are the only reasons that PC gaming is still limping along. If it weren't for these two monoliths of PC gaming, publishers would have completely forsaken the PC. It's only the insane success these two are achieving that is convincing publishers to still support the PC in any capacity.
It pains me to say this, as it was only recently that I started "console" gaming in any serious way. My childhood was dominated by Civilization 2 and my teenage years were dominated by Battlefield 1942 and Everquest. It greatly pains me to see that the PC has been reduced to what it is now. But Steam is one of the only things preventing the PC from just completely going the way of the arcade, and I'm getting really tired of this "everyone hate the guy at the top" mentality that's emerging. They f'ing bend over backwards for the customers, and there are still people running around screaming about how Valve screws them over. There is no reason to hate Valve other than the fact that they are the top dog or because they use DRM. The second reason is valid, I guess. But even their DRM is the most flexible, more permissive form I've yet seen. Hell, by letting you install a game simply by downloading it to any computer you own, eliminating disk checks, adding achievements, and letting you chat in-game with your friends, it's one of the only DRMs that actually add value rather than purely punishing the consumer. I actually *like* buying games on Steam now, whereas not even a year ago I would never buy a purely digital copy.
Kill Valve, and you kill PC gaming. Sorry. But it's the truth. Kill World of Warcraft, and you might kill the MMO genre, though I suspect SOE will continue on. But kill Valve, and you will see a mass exodus of all major publishers. Mark my words. #valve
@thenino85: What about Firaxis, The Creative Assembly, Bioware (play Dragon Age on PC & consoles to see which version is #1), and all the rest?
The only people who say PC gaming is dying are those who don't remember the last 4 times this has been said (it's a 5 year cycle as PCs start to outpace consoles), and believe only exclusives make or break a system, which is a dumb label to slap on a PC to begin with.
If PC gaming were truly dying, then why is almost every major release also given a PC version?
"Well you Valve don't really think that, because look what you've done on the PC side. You've supported that, you've added all this content to Team Fortress 2, and you've left us hanging."
Valve have repeatedly stated that the reason they haven't been able to support the 360 version is twofold. Firstly they do not want to have to charge for it, so are hoping to get it all out of the door in one update that they can release for free (Microsoft allow one free DLC unless you fuck around with them to get more).
Secondly, the 360 cannot physically process the amount of information TF2 now has to load. They have pointed this out already, that in order to load all the new updates into the current 360 release of TF2, they will have to find new ways of compressing the information and making it less memory intensive. It is not viable to put any real work into this until all the class packs are released, otherwise any work done will go to waste when even more data has to be added.
While I appreciate Valve are a bit unfair towards Sony, I understand that they would most likely need to split the company up to code for the PS3, something they don't want to do.
I also appreciate that the above two things are pretty common knowledge, but I had to raise the point! #valve
Gearbox seems to have a thing about Steam. To be fair with them, I actually wonder why they seem to be the only ones to realize that Valve owns the largest digital distribution platform for PC games. Valve is actually in the league of Microsoft or Sony itself, in that it is not only a developer, not only its own distribution company, but also the owner of the platform in which their games are published alongside third party games.
Valve is the closest to a first party the PC has, but people keep looking at it as if it's small business, as if it's a bunch of kids in a garage saying "The PS3 sucks, dude!" It kind of reminds me of the gradual, horrified realization that Google was actually a huge multinational company with monopolistic tendencies in the last few years. I'm expecting a similar change of positioning for Valve, soon.
@noelveig: Gearbox's issue with Steam is about fairness. Granted, Valve and Gearbox are essentially competitors on the PC market, but the only one with a digital distribution service set up is Valve. The issue they're worried about is whether Valve will treat Gearbox's IP fairly on the distribution system or not.
While it seems trivial, the fact of the matter is that Valve is a private company and not a publicly traded one. This means that there's no real way to enforce a check against the company executives the way you normally would with a publicly traded company. For example, if you own 1% of Microsoft's stocks, you have the right to attend its shareholder meeting and say straight to Ballmer/Gate's face how much of an idiot you believe them to be and they will actually listen mostly because they have to. With Valve, since there aren't any stockholder meetings, you can't go up to Newell's face to say that he's a fatso mostly because there aren't any stocks for you to own in the first place. Remember, these are examples; extreme examples, but ones that illustrate the difference between what you can do to a publicly traded firm with one that isn't publicly traded.
What it boils down to is leverage; rather, the ability to leverage your interests against Valve.
What Gearbox might be doing is to provoke Valve into doing something stupid so that they can highlight/appeal it to the FTC or something and sic an anti-monopoly suit against Valve in order to split Steam off of Valve. It's a convoluted process and many things could go wrong but it's possible to pull off. #valve
I want to know where did the myth that the "Orange Box" on the xbox 360 is even good come from? It maybe got an update for teamfortress once. I really don't think PS3 owner is missing something the Xbox owner has on this one. They are cleary PC oriented all the way. #valve
@Pornosaur: That's exactly what I was thinking. Yeah we got a better Orange Box on 360 than the PS3 got, but there has still been very little support.
The only reason Valve likes the 360 is that they can hide behind Microsoft's policies and charge for what little DLC they deem the 360 users worthy of. Despite that, they've still failed to deliver any additional content besides the expansion for L4D... It really doesn't look like they care for 360 either.
Step 1) Get Valve guy to shit talk PS3 on Kotaku.
Step 2) Get Gearbox guy to counter-shit talk Valve guy on Kotaku
Step 3) Valve and Gearbox get publicity, Kotaku gets content.
What's that about underlying sleaziness, Randy? #valve
I don't really see any sleaziness there dude. It's the Kotaku editors jobs to find and post articles like this for you to read, and even if it weren't, how is that Randy's fault? #valve
It's good to see a game dev coming to the defense of the PS3 for once. God knows it doesn't happen. With all the hard work Sony's done to come out of its initial PS3 rut and provide quality software, you'd think it catch a damn break for once. You know, a year from now when we've seen the full effects of its price drop most will be singing a different tune; and Valve's comments will seem close-minded and elitist in retrospect. #valve
11/08/09
So it just means I dont really care about Valve & they never get any of my money. #valve
11/08/09
All three consoles and both handhelds kick ass, though each also have their issues. #valve
11/08/09
And like 20 other developers have complained about the PS3 development as well. #valve
11/08/09
11/08/09
Learning fluent German may have improved my English, but not by very much. #valve
11/08/09
Or put it another way, it'd be more like learning Latin and then applying that knowledge to the major European languages. You may not know every word in the English dictionary but having learned Latin, you're essentially better prepared to deal with words that you've never seen in your life on the SAT/GRE because of the root words that are based on Latin. #valve
11/08/09
11/08/09
Programming for the PS3 is very much like programming for Windows and then porting the same program to Mac System Classic, the architecture, the design principles, it's all very different.
Where as programming for a 360 is the same as for a PC and programming for the Wii is very much the same as for a PPC unix system (Mac OS8 to OSX pre-intel to continue the mac comparison xD) #valve
11/08/09
I think this is pretty well known, so I don't know if you were so much deceived, as it is one of those weird facts that somehow eludes you. I know that's happened to me a few times, though I can't think of any examples off the top of my head. #valve
11/09/09
Instead, Newell comes out and says the PS3 is [news.teamxbox.com] or "a waste of everyone's time" and just comes off sounding ignorant and fanboyish when you look at all the developers who don't have these issues with the system, and can make a game that actually runs smoothly and properly on it. There are other companies who don't support the system, but they don't make a big show of it and badmouth it just because they can't handle it.
11/09/09
But perhaps it's just me. #valve
11/08/09
Anyway, what the crap does this jackhole's opinion matter regarding Valve and the PS3 anyway? Maybe he and his company should pay more attention to how their products work on which platforms (*cough*Borderlands*cough*PC) before he goes about throwing stones. #valve
11/08/09
Anyway, what the crap do these jackhole's opinions matter regarding the PS3. Maybe their company and them should just learn to shut their mouths instead of alienating an entire demographic of gamers. (*cough* See it works both *cough* ways.) and quit dicking around and make HL2 Ep 3. #valve
11/08/09
11/08/09
It pains me to say this, as it was only recently that I started "console" gaming in any serious way. My childhood was dominated by Civilization 2 and my teenage years were dominated by Battlefield 1942 and Everquest. It greatly pains me to see that the PC has been reduced to what it is now. But Steam is one of the only things preventing the PC from just completely going the way of the arcade, and I'm getting really tired of this "everyone hate the guy at the top" mentality that's emerging. They f'ing bend over backwards for the customers, and there are still people running around screaming about how Valve screws them over. There is no reason to hate Valve other than the fact that they are the top dog or because they use DRM. The second reason is valid, I guess. But even their DRM is the most flexible, more permissive form I've yet seen. Hell, by letting you install a game simply by downloading it to any computer you own, eliminating disk checks, adding achievements, and letting you chat in-game with your friends, it's one of the only DRMs that actually add value rather than purely punishing the consumer. I actually *like* buying games on Steam now, whereas not even a year ago I would never buy a purely digital copy.
Kill Valve, and you kill PC gaming. Sorry. But it's the truth. Kill World of Warcraft, and you might kill the MMO genre, though I suspect SOE will continue on. But kill Valve, and you will see a mass exodus of all major publishers. Mark my words. #valve
11/08/09
The only people who say PC gaming is dying are those who don't remember the last 4 times this has been said (it's a 5 year cycle as PCs start to outpace consoles), and believe only exclusives make or break a system, which is a dumb label to slap on a PC to begin with.
If PC gaming were truly dying, then why is almost every major release also given a PC version?
"Sorry. But it's the truth."
Yeah... it really isn't... #valve
11/08/09
Can I just raise a point.
"Well you Valve don't really think that, because look what you've done on the PC side. You've supported that, you've added all this content to Team Fortress 2, and you've left us hanging."
Valve have repeatedly stated that the reason they haven't been able to support the 360 version is twofold. Firstly they do not want to have to charge for it, so are hoping to get it all out of the door in one update that they can release for free (Microsoft allow one free DLC unless you fuck around with them to get more).
Secondly, the 360 cannot physically process the amount of information TF2 now has to load. They have pointed this out already, that in order to load all the new updates into the current 360 release of TF2, they will have to find new ways of compressing the information and making it less memory intensive. It is not viable to put any real work into this until all the class packs are released, otherwise any work done will go to waste when even more data has to be added.
While I appreciate Valve are a bit unfair towards Sony, I understand that they would most likely need to split the company up to code for the PS3, something they don't want to do.
I also appreciate that the above two things are pretty common knowledge, but I had to raise the point! #valve
11/08/09
Valve is the closest to a first party the PC has, but people keep looking at it as if it's small business, as if it's a bunch of kids in a garage saying "The PS3 sucks, dude!" It kind of reminds me of the gradual, horrified realization that Google was actually a huge multinational company with monopolistic tendencies in the last few years. I'm expecting a similar change of positioning for Valve, soon.
11/08/09
While it seems trivial, the fact of the matter is that Valve is a private company and not a publicly traded one. This means that there's no real way to enforce a check against the company executives the way you normally would with a publicly traded company. For example, if you own 1% of Microsoft's stocks, you have the right to attend its shareholder meeting and say straight to Ballmer/Gate's face how much of an idiot you believe them to be and they will actually listen mostly because they have to. With Valve, since there aren't any stockholder meetings, you can't go up to Newell's face to say that he's a fatso mostly because there aren't any stocks for you to own in the first place. Remember, these are examples; extreme examples, but ones that illustrate the difference between what you can do to a publicly traded firm with one that isn't publicly traded.
What it boils down to is leverage; rather, the ability to leverage your interests against Valve.
What Gearbox might be doing is to provoke Valve into doing something stupid so that they can highlight/appeal it to the FTC or something and sic an anti-monopoly suit against Valve in order to split Steam off of Valve. It's a convoluted process and many things could go wrong but it's possible to pull off. #valve
11/08/09
11/08/09
The only reason Valve likes the 360 is that they can hide behind Microsoft's policies and charge for what little DLC they deem the 360 users worthy of. Despite that, they've still failed to deliver any additional content besides the expansion for L4D... It really doesn't look like they care for 360 either.
11/07/09
Pitchford hit the nail pretty firmly on the head there. #valve
11/08/09
11/08/09
It's a 100% factual statement. Simple as that. Business is business.
You can't act butt-hurt when someone calls you out over it, though. #valve
11/07/09
11/07/09
but anyone who buys a Valve product on anything other than a PC is really harming themselves.
Valve tastes best with the PC. just like Chocolate tastes best with Peanut Butter. #valve
11/07/09
hehe, he should watch his step. #valve
11/07/09
Step 2) Get Gearbox guy to counter-shit talk Valve guy on Kotaku
Step 3) Valve and Gearbox get publicity, Kotaku gets content.
What's that about underlying sleaziness, Randy? #valve
11/07/09
I don't really see any sleaziness there dude. It's the Kotaku editors jobs to find and post articles like this for you to read, and even if it weren't, how is that Randy's fault? #valve
11/08/09
11/07/09
11/07/09