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Denver, 6:15 AM
Fri Nov 27
29 posts in the last 24 hours
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11/06/09
Say what you will about pretty much everything else in the Wii system, but the two-piece controller is definitely the way to go. Small hands, large hands, in-between hands, cthulhoid tentacles, it doesn't matter. The controller is however big and whatever shape you want it to be, based on how you choose to pose your arms while playing. Want to have a more traditional experience? Hold them near each other in front of you like a standard two-hand controller. Feel like being more casual about it? Drape one arm over the armrest, and rest the other on your leg. Maybe you're looking for new ways to challenge yourself? Wrap one arm around the back of your neck, and sit on the other one. #art
11/06/09
how long have you been gaming? you don't sound like the average 12 years old kid, but indeed you complain like one.
now, on topic, I for one, am more sensitive to the pain caused by any nintendo D-Pads on my fingers, than any other kind of phisical damage.
Ergonomics are the human dimension proyected in the design of an usable object, and as far back as I can remember, controls are not only to hold, but to press buttons too.
If you take damage by holding a dualshock , then I can safely say I get damaged by using the wiimote's button, any of them . Wich is more anti-ergonomic? #art
11/08/09
I own three consoles. A Wii, a black Atari 2600, and a wood-grain Atari 2600. I've suffered through all you "hardcore" gamers whinging about how the PS3 Boomerang looked ugly (don't care, looks fairly comfortable), and how the DS Phat supposedly caused hand cramps by being too large (it's actually because it's small, which gets worse with the DS Lite unless you strap it into some Nerf Armor). I've got an 8.75" handspan, and I'm telling you right now that both the 360 and PS3 controllers are utter garbage from an ergonomic standpoint.
For the record, I'm also sick of the fact that weekend handymen have cause the power tool industry to switch from pistol grip screwguns (which are great for driving screws without first drilling pilot holes) to T-grip screwguns (which are pretty much designed to just be comfortable to hold as you stand there doing nothing).
We live in a nation that has forgotten what "ergonomic" means, and since the market is driven by the consumers, it's making it more difficult for _me_ to find handheld devices that are actually designed to be comfortable rather than simply look cool. And if I was complaining like the average 12-year old, I'd be griping about how they should look cooler. #art
11/08/09
11/06/09
To simplify:
If you have big hands - 360
Small hands - Dualshock
And if like me you find the idea of laying sprawled on the sofa with hands either side of you then the Wiimote is for you. Though I do prefer the dualshock to the 360 as I have small palms and long fingers. #art
11/06/09
360: Grab it full-on and wrap your hands around it.
DualShock: Set it on your fingers with fairly open hands - it won't fall - really. It takes effort to drop it.
When I hold a DualShock, the heels of my hands aren't even on it. Like that, it's the most comfortable controller I've ever used. The only issue I have is if I'm playing a fighting game for a long time, the underside screw hole near the d-pad makes a hell of a hot spot on the side of my middle finger. #art
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The funny thing is it felt almost like the big cheap Mad Catz Dreamcast controllers which were the worst aftermarket controllers I'd used.
The XBox S and 360 ones are so much better... #art
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i've always prefered the Dualshock, iv'e been using it's many variations over ten years now. It's got the perfect number of buttons, great d-pad, symmetrically placed sticks, good size, and it doesn't feel like a toy in your hands. as ergonomic as the handles on the Gamecube controllers may have been, the color scheme, button layout, and stick placement were all terrible, and the d-pad was underutilized. 360 controllers, while not terrible suffer from crappy stick placement and the worst dpad since the saturn. #art
11/06/09
BUT! ...I find the terms "asymmetrical joke" rather unfounded.
#1: the color scheme is the weakest point of your argument, so let's get that out of the way. It is possible to buy controllers of all different types of colors - Black, of course, being the most acceptable, certified hardcore color amongst the players of the top tier, is in high quantity. But it also comes in banana, strawberry, and kiwi flavors.
#2: symmetrically placed sticks = superior? Okay, so again this comes down to preference, but I think even the 360 (and I hate that controller) has much more comfortable finger placement. Something about it feels natural.
#3: "feels like a toy" in your hands. ie, it feels like you're holding something fun.
#4: "d-pad was underutilized" - not a problem with the controller, but the games.
I will agree that the button layout is strange. Personally, I like having the different shaped buttons (I can literally feel a spark of delight when I consider how pleasing it was to slide my finger across the a-button and press the joyously-shaped "x" or "y" button), and I also liked their placement (apart from the "z" button).
Okay, now some positives for the GC controller that often go unmentioned.
#1: the c-stick and the analog stick both have a perfect amount of resistance. I hate to bag on the dualshock, but you forced me - that thing is no joy to push at all. It's either all or nothing - any game that requires an in-between push creates a tiny frustration in my mind b/c the controller doesn't seem to like being pushed only a little.
#2: the heft of the controller. It feels like I'm holding something. Perfect weight for me.
#3: the plastics Nintendo uses are unique. The outer shell is smooth, not smudgy - ergonomic, not forced on the hands - and the c-stick has (man, I don't even know what kind of material is used) a great feel to it. It grips your finger whenever you apply even the slightest pressure. Delightful.
So that's my story and I'm sticking to it. I, too, call myself a gamer.
By no means do I hate the dualshock either - but I feel like with this last generational leap, Sony had a chance to 1-up that design and really were unable to come up with anything substantial. And I owned a PS3 for awhile, so I consider myself knowledgeable. #art
11/06/09
Mainly because I'm a weirdo and like my controllers to be heavy, I still have 2 big "Duke" controllers for the old xbox, and i've replaced all my sixaxes with DS3s, for that reason alone. so for me the weight of the gamecube controls always put me off. of course Then the wavebird came out and i was more contented.
I still dislike the placement of the sticks, although your point about the material used for the "c" button was spot on, i want to coat everything i own in that stuff. but the right stick being placed higher than the left irks me to no end. For me it's a symmetry issue. It's easier for my mind to decode controls when both sides of the controller mirror each other, i have the same problem with the Xbox controls. so yea, each controller has its pros and cons. sorry to sound like such a douche bigelow earlier.
Although, i think we can both agree that the z button needs to be sent to an orphanage. #art
11/06/09
Not everyone plays, or only plays, FPS games. Some of us like games that are not FPS games.
That is all. #art
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That said, I do like it for racing games, fighting games, basically anything where I'm not as worried about the camera. #art
11/06/09
Yes, maybe the 360 controller is more comfortable and the sticks better placed, but the analog sticks for the dualshock are still very useable.
On the flip side, the d-pad for the 360 is completely useless. But the d-pad on the dualshock is the best one around at the moment.
Also, with the dualshock 3, you have the not so great motion control. As I said, not great, but it is there.
The dualshock does everything, and it does everything well enough that I don't really think that there is a need to change it.
To be honest, good controllers are hard to make.
I believe that the Dreamcast controller and GameCube controllers where pretty bad. very stocky with small buttons.
The N64 controller is simply aweful.
The Saturn controller was pretty good, as was the MegaDrive and SNES.
The MasterSystem had a pretty shite controller as well compared to the NES controller which is one of the best that has been made.
The NeoGeo was a little bulky, the same can be said for the original Xbox controller. The update was better but still, that d-pad.
The thing I don't understand is why so many people actually 'dislike' the dualshock. #art
11/06/09
"The thing I don't understand is why so many people actually 'dislike' the dualshock."
Again, well said. I don't see how you can LOOOOVE the 360 controller but absolutely HAAATE the DS when the things are so damn similar. The differences are minute, and the 360 controller took many more notes from the DS design than the other way around. If your hands are big or you have arthritis, I'm sorry to sound inconsiderate but it's pretty ridiculous to call the design "bad." You have to realize you're a special case and don't represent the average person.
I'd like to think the DS won an award for a reason. #art
11/06/09
You are wrong about the gamecube controller by the way, the buttons are either slightly larger or of a comparable size to say the buttons on the wiimote,(I had this conversation on kotaku a while back and actually did some quick measurements with my other controllers.) One of the design ideas for it was to make the button that you use the most, (the A button) significantly larger than usual making it easier to distinguish, a very clever idea and one I would love to see in other controllers.
I've found that the gamecube controller has been one of the most comfortable to use because of both the size of the handles and the heft it has.
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Well yes it's subjective, however whilst I am at the outlying reaches when it comes to hand size it is possible to make accommodations to make it possible for both ends of the curve as it were, to use a controller comfortably. That's the genius of a good design and why it isn't pointless to debate it.
Both myself with my very large hands,(honestly I'm beginning to make myself sound like an orang utan here!) and my daughter with her very small hands can use the gamecube controller because of the design of the handles. That is a good design, I just wish that the second analogue nub was better it really is annoying at times. #art
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360 controller is lightyears ahead in terms of stick placement and it's triggers.
Yes the 360 dpad sucks, but how many modern 3D games use the dpad for more than selecting inventory items or some other ancilliary function?
DS3 is okay for certain types of games like Katamari, or Ratchet n Clank, and fighters, racers, and retro games, but I wouldnt dream of trying to play Modern Warfare 2 on it.
#art
11/06/09
Well, I started my gaming with a one button joystick! Since then I've tried out all of the more common and some of the uncommon controllers.
I used the N64 controller before using the none rumble playstation controller and then the rumbling version. I did use the gamecube controller before the PS 2 version however but I've found all the iterations of the PS controllers have had the same basic gamers claw problem. #art
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The point is, is that you can still play FPS's on the dualshock with success. But using the d-pad on the 360 as your main control is just horrible to have to do.
Almost everyone who I knew that bought SFIV on the 360 bought a stick as well. Now, yes, people who buy the PS3 version did that too but the game is still highly playable with the DS d-pad. #art
11/06/09
Pah! Enough about my hands!
I do have U.S. size fifteen feet so you know what that means.
Yep, I find it very hard to find shoes!
Ook! #art
11/06/09
There you go. You've adapted your hands to conform to the placement on the GC controller, so it takes a little longer to adapt to the Dualshock. Especially if you're convinced the problem is with the controller itself, not in your own head. If you just take a little patience and realize you simply need to play a few games with it and find a position that works for you instead of treating it like a bad GC controller you will realize that it's fine. #art
11/06/09
So you're saying a game has to be 3D to be worth playing on the 360? Because without that limitation I can think of many amazing games that came out very recently and require a decent D-pad.
Shooters are still highly enjoyable on the PS imo, it's never been a barrier for me or my friends. #art
11/06/09
Oh PLEASE! and you accuse me of self delusion!
I have used loads of controllers over the years and as I have said use both the previous iterations of the PS controller to the gamecube one. I am use to it, the basic design,(and problem) hasn't changed greatly over the years. From reading the other threads it's not just me that has had complaints about the controller and it has been an issue for years.
Perhaps you need a little patience and need to take some time and instead of just treating it as good because it is a playstation controller you may realise that it is possible that some people find it uncomfortable because it is uncomfortable. #art
11/06/09
A side note and not directed at anyone:
Whenever the subject of ergonomics come people have to strongly say one thing is better than the other.
Nothing is better than the other, it's a very personal thing, mostly because unlike controllers we are not made in factories and our hands are very variable.
That said I prefer the PS3's dualshock over the 360's controller but the latter isn't bad either. I'm just glad we're away from the Mega Drive 2 controller days.
Both controllers have their own set of good and bad but that's natural. People's hands don't grasp things similarly either, otherwise we wouldn't have people with butterfingers or those who just can't catch. It's the reason why studies into robotic hands still go on. #art
11/06/09
I don't even understand this reply, you got excited over nothing.
Well keep bashing the controller I guess, there's plenty of us out there who are using it with no problems. #art
11/06/09
I'm also not so sure I understand the "D-Pad ruins everything" compaint. Sure, it's very important for shooters, but how many other games do you really control with the d-pad? I mean, Alien Hominid was just fine with the thumbsticks, and its a fairly archetypal 2d platformer. #art
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Didn't mean to imply that at all. I hate the the 360 dpad ruins many XBLA and retro games for me. I switch to my SFIV pad or gigantic joystick just to play Bomberman.
I'm no fan of that dpad. But imo, for modern, 3D titles, I prefer the 360 cotroller over DS3 almost every time. #art
11/06/09
Im glad thats cleared up and someone agrees with me. #art
11/06/09
No, that's not what I meant at all. Here is his question: " Sure, it's very important for shooters, but how many other games do you really control with the d-pad?" And I gave him a list of fighting games for which the D-Pad is important.
The question was not "what type of games is the DS good at?" If it were that, I'd say every type, some more than others: fighters more than FPS games.
Glad that's cleared up. #art
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It's patently obvious that the problem isn't in my head, there are several comments in this thread that show that I am not the only person to have a problem with the various play station controllers.
I have shown that I have played with the DS several times over the various iterations, none of the experience or patience will alter the fact that it is not well designed.
If you had a game that had bad controls you would quite rightly complain about it, why should we not complain about a console that has a controller that is uncomfortable? That is what many people in this story are doing.
As to the tone, nearly half of my post was a reversal of what you yourself had posted, so perhaps you should ask yourself why you are getting so excited over this. You have already stated that it's just an opinion but then that the opinions of people who are having problems should be ignored, followed by the implication that the people who have had problems have shown either no patience, haven't been able to use the controller correctly or that the problem is "in your own head".
11/06/09
There are plenty of comments in this thread agreeing with you, but that doesn't mean that they don't all have the same problem as you, especially considering the overwhelming majority that likes or at least doesn't mind the thing, and considering it won an award.
Great, you've played with the DS many times and patience didn't help. Maybe your large hands really are not compatible with it, then again you have to realize that you're not the average gamer (I'm pretty sure I've touched on this before). It does sound inconsiderate, and I guess Nintendo and Microsoft have found a way to accomodate more people, but that doesn't mean that Sony's design is "bad."
I never said people shouldn't complain, the PS3 is what it is today thanks to complaints. Again with the twisting my words. What I said was if you're just senselessly bashing the thing, then have at it while most of us are using it with no problems. But criticizing is healthy, and I was just telling you how I got over the change the DS brings when you don't start with it.
I never got excited one second. I didn't use any caps, no demeaning word and my post was honestly trying to help. When I'm cranky it's pretty obvious. Again I think you just got really defensive for nothing.
I never stated that the opinions of anyone should be ignored, it seems you're confusing me with someone else. And the implications you inferred are also incorrect. Before I even brought the patience bit I did say that people with arthritis or large hands might not be able to adapt that easily, but that they have to understand that they are not exactly the average person. #art
11/06/09
I really love the design of the DualShock, but honestly, I think it's time for a change. It was a great controller when it was first designed, but I'd hardly call it ergonomic by today's standards. I actually prefer the Xbox 360 controller in terms of comfort, but I always find myself going back to the DualShock because it has a D-pad that, well, actually doesn't annoy the crap out of me.
Ergonomic would have been PS3's prototype "batarang" controller that so many people had an uproar over. If people just sat and thought about it for a while, they would have realized it could have had potential to be a great controller: #art
11/06/09
I sometimes feel as though I am the only person in the world who dislikes the playstation controller. I've never found it to be comfortable at all, especially the first iteration without the rumble bit. Now I will admit that I suffer from pretty bad arthritis which does affect my hands now but I've always felt that it is just to small for somebody with slightly larger than average hands,(and I have very big hands).
The gamecube had one of the most comfortable controllers I've ever used and surprisingly enough I've found the wii controller to be very easy on the hands when you use it, I believe that it's because it's in two pieces. #art
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Pfft. #art
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