"recently, Batman: Arkham Asylum, Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2, et al. — can be great fun, and we have become quite skilled at making them, but they also represent something of a creative red herring: 'The part that speaks to the human condition is in the cutscenes, not in the interactivity.'"
This is a statement that really bothers me. Why? Because it suggest that what speaks to me as an individual isn't a particular moment, or something off script but a cutscene - and while the developers may have put in a lot of work into a cutscene and have included some meaningful and impacting dialogue and imagery that does not mean that it is what affects me the most.
In his examples of Batman and MW2 the moments that spoke to me the most were things that were just happening in-game, and not carefully crafted cutscenes. In Batman it came at moment where there was a room full of enemies (like always) and I was given the option of taking them all out silently or merely sneaking past the all. There was no reason to even engage in conflict and yet I chose to nonchalantly walk right up to the group and beat the living daylights out of each individual. Why did I need to do something so violent? It wasn't an option suggested by the developers and it was totally unnecessary, and yet, I felt the need, if not the desire, to want to brutal beat each individual. This was a moment that spoke to my human condition because it suggested that, if given the chance (and the power) I would rather see my enemies suffer by my hands than leave them to just stand around and act stupidly (or later come to knock me out from behind).
In MW2, the moment that stands out in my memory was a segment that was scripted but it was the actions of one of my friends that caused me to think about its importance. In the mission 'Wolverines' when America is first invaded there is a section where your commander carries a wounded soldier on his back from one restaurant to another - while being fired at. You, as the player, are told to go down there and cover them - protect them as they travel to safety. I ran out of the restaurant, straight to the other building and risked my life to make sure they made it safely across; I shot anyone who got in my sights, and used my body as a shield to protect what I assume was an indestructible NPC. At first, I thought nothing of it, until I watched my friend complete the same mission. When he was asked to defend the characters he didn't leave the building, he didn't even move to the door to cover them as they walked up, he didn't even look at them - instead he just kept firing at a rather annoying enemy that was popping up and down at the exact moments my friend was firing this sniper rifle. I told him he had to defend them and he just shrugged it off, when the ordeal was over and they were safe (and the wack-a-mole enemy still alive) I asked him: 'why didn't you protect them?' to which he replied 'why would I? I'm not going to die for people I don't care about?' And then the moment clicked for me: I was willing to leave the relative safety of a building to protect my team regardless of how real or fake they were because there was a part of me that just couldn't let them be out there on their own when they needed help - my friend on the other hand wasn't at all moved by their plight, he came first and if they made it, it probably just meant more heads for the enemy to aim at before they got to him. This moment, more than any other in the game (cutscene or not) really spoke to me and the 'human condition' and the difference between my friend and myself and out priorities.
Perhaps Hecker is missing what is right in front of him; yes, cutscenes play an unnecessarily large role in today's games: with the current technology and countless examples of 'interactive story telling' there isn't really a need to rely on them to tell stories any longer. But in many cases what speaks to the human condition isn't so much what the developers put in the story as it is the individual moments and how they speak to us as individual gamers. #development
Here we are again, as in every discussion involving the A-word ("Art"), struggling to define our terms and never quite making it into the debate. Mentioning Art in a debate is like mentioning Hitler. It stops the discussion cold.
Big-money developers need to ask "why" every so often, even when making power-fantasy games. But after you ask why - and I think more developers do this than Hecker gives credit - you have to ask "how". "How" is the troubling question here, and it's the part that trips everyone up.
Hecker only makes a few concrete suggestions about how to answer this question:
1. Make storytelling more interactive; stop depending on cut-scenes.
2. Stop over-emphasising military and superhero power fantasies.
Fair enough. In short, "make more interactive and diverse games", which everyone would like, but no one seems to know how to do consistently or profitably.
In other words, the "problem", and I'm not convinced there is one at all, is not with developers, but with the market they serve, which punishes flawed but unique visions, and rewards polished repetition. #development
@vid3oman64: It's even harder if you do not have a lot of computer knowledge. I'd dare say it's impossible - you could design (on paper) a great, simple game, but have simply no idea how to properly build it. That hinders so many people, it's not even funny. #development
While I see what he is driving at and his points about gaming becoming a 'cultural ghetto' are valid I must disagree with some of his arguments for those points, and the first is that he thinks that video games "F--k it up" on units sold, cultural impact and diversity of content. Unfortunately, these three things cannot co-exist unless it is some sort of cosmic miracle. If something sells well it is usually 'safe' - the market knows what it is, they trust it and little risk is involved. Just look at television shows and film: there are what, four CSI's? Dozens of interchangeable sitcoms? One of this summers biggest films was Transformers 2, which is not culturally significant in any way. What sells well, or is the most popular is not always diverse: there are plenty of fantastic indie bands that will find a niche audience while someone like Britteny Spears sells millions of albums.
Arguing that because the most popular video games all share similar traits they are causing a 'cultural ghetto' while using film and music as examples of diversity is contradictory. Most music sounds similar within each genre and most films all share the same plot conventions. You can rarely have diversity, cultural impact and be popular all at the same time. It isn't impossible but it is rare and expecting it of most video games is naive. Modern Warfare 2, for example, will be popular, and like the first, will have a large cultural impact (most of the people I've sold the game to where I work are the same kind of people that buy Wii Fit) - however, no one is going to call the game diverse. Assassin's Creed was all three, but it wasn't perfect and its the only game that I can think of from the 360/PS3 consoles that pulls off being all four of his criteria (revenue, units sold, diversity, and cultural impact - after AC came out a lot of games began to add that sort of stealth; it was no longer all shadows and sitting still).
To be diverse you need to be prepared to sacrifice revenue - occasionally it works out, like Guitar Hero, but when something diverse comes along and succeeds you get imitators (or sequels and spin offs) and then you are back to saturating the market with the same thing. Unlike movies and music it is very difficult to create your own diverse project. Its possible on PC, and consoles are beginning to get into the indie scene but most of it is crap and the good stuff - like in film and music - often finds a loyal but small audience and that is considered a failure in our industry because we still have some growing up to do.
I think, instead of worrying about CoD or Halo being diverse we should nurture our niche games. The big guys will always be similar, we as gamers like certain things and the big games always give us those things in expertly crafted titles but the small and 'diverse' games are forgotten and then you get articles like this that piss and moan about the 'lack of diversity' and having a 'culture ghetto'. NO! The diverse stuff is out there and sometimes its amazing but we're to busy yelling about how the game that sells 8 million copies doesn't break any new ground or 'plays it safe' to notice that something new and risky is calling out for our attention. Who cares if MW2 isn't diverse? Someone is taking the risk this guy is talking about, and someone out there is creating a game with a 'why?' behind it but it won't get any attention because it won't sell a million copies and it won't have sold those million copies because no one payed it any attention, they were to busy saying 'everything is like Halo'.
We need to get past complaining about the redundancy of big games, like film and music IT WILL ALWAYS BE THAT WAY - but in film and music they appreciate the small things, they give them festivals and coverage in the media, we don't do that in gaming, we shove the little guy to side. Our media doesn't care, maybe it'll get a post on a site if the author has played the game or it starts making waves but magazines don't really cover the small guys and web sites don't either. Unless its a new IP from Activision or EA most couldn't give to shits; and this is the problem, perhaps instead of looking for originality from the major publishers we should find the 'diamond in the rough' so to speak, stop talking about the lack of diversity if you aren't willing to look for originality. If I were to walk you down the main aisle of a video store or music store you'd say: 'well these are all the same, nothing is original where's the different stuff' and I'd reply 'well if you turn the corner, you'll find the less popular but original stuff'. For example, a film called 'Starting out in the Evening' is one of my favorite movies, well it sure as hell isn't going to be beside Transformers, same goes for 'One Week' - another great movie (fellow Canadians, watch. this. movie). Turn the proverbial corner, seek out the originality and the diversity, don't expect it to be thrown in your lap...
@Alexander-the-Supernaut: I know what you mean but I think you are being a shade hard on the video game industry.
If you look at the top 50 grossing films of all time it is dominated by sci-fi, fantasy and comic films.
However I think part of the argument is that many "niche" films still make money, a lot of Deniro films are definitely not bog standard Taxi Driver, Casino, Goodfellas, Raging Bull, but they all grossed profits. Million dollar baby made money and won an Oscar or three as did Brokeback Mountain. Okay they didn't make as much money as Star Wars or Lord of the rings or Harry Potter or Spiderman, but not everything can.
But I think part of the problem is that it is difficult to ascertain what our equivalent of Goodfellas or Brokeback or Blade Runner is?
Is it World of Goo? not really because those films still had budgets and named actors, World of Goo would be probably more Blair Witch. Is it Deus ex? Fahrenheit? will if so then there isn't a problem because both those games sold units enough to make reasonable money and won a lot of respect.
Is it Sims? well if so then we really don't have a problem at all because it is one of the best selling game series of all time. #development
@Bleemo: If I came off as hard on the industry it is coincidence. I have no real issue with big games or anything like that - I love MW2 and Halo as much as the next guy; the point I was trying to get across is that we shouldn't expect originality to come from the big guys. Sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn't, and there isn't a problem with that; they are in the business to make money and like my example of Guitar Hero sometimes originality equates to massive amounts of money. Niche titles, like niche films and niche bands, tend to make their money back because their development cost simply because it cost them so little so they do make profit (not always, but its possible). Look at Paranormal Activity - it cost $15,000 to make but it made millions of dollars at the box office. And this is where I think our industry needs to play a little catch up.
See, Paranormal Activity gained a lot of momentum by finding its small audience and exploiting it. Suddenly it was all over the net, it was in reputable papers and popular magazines. But the small games in our industry don't receive that treatment, sure if it comes from a well known publisher than it will (like Valve with Portal) but more often than not it won't receive any coverage. I really think this is what we need to get passed - instead of cover stories about the latest Activision or EA title spend some time with the indie side of our industry. The risk with that however is that there are a lot of terrible independant games out there - A LOT - so I think what our industry, or rather, our media, needs to do is find the success story, the Paranormal Activity, if you will and exploit it, parade it around and tell us all how great it is. If the big publishers see that we want risk, and we want new things and it will grant them coverage and money than they will respond. Right now, they have no reason to branch out, and why would they? They make millions on what is already a guaranteed success - DJ Hero, a true risk from Activision even if it carried the Hero name, was a failure, while Guitar Hero continues to do well. So why go out on a limb?
Sometimes the coverage doesn't work well either - Brutal Legend hasn't worked out too well for EA, despite a ton of media coverage and a being told by said media that: 'oh well its Tim Shafer, everyone should love it'. Its difficult to really nail down what the issue is because more often than not, no one really knows themselves. Yes, we all want risk but at what cost? Wouldn't it be better for Activision to do something new in an already existing title than create a whole new IP? We get the game we love, they get the money they love and the industry gets something new (see: Call of Duty 4's multiplayer). It truly is a double edged sword - you can take a risk and be original, but you may also alienate the majority of players and the game could flop. I don't want to be hard on the industry because at the end of the day I think they are doing a great job. I'd like to see some new things put I would also be happy if those new things were introduced in the games I already know (add a little spice to things, raise the bar for what a sequel can be, not just a cash grab).
The overall feeling I was also trying to get across, at least from my perspective, is than at least once a week I see an article or hear a gamer, complaining about a lack of original titles and they almost always (especially the gaming journalist) expect the 'diverse' titles to be handed to them by Microsoft, or EA, or Activision and they tell me that our industry is broken, and will fail if they don't create something new - but these same journalists won't cover or even mention the truly original and diverse games that are already out there and I think that is hypocritical.
I completely agree with you when you say: '...I think part of the problem is that it is difficult to ascertain what our equivalent of Goodfellas or Brokeback or Blade Runner is?' You hit the nail on the head with that statement. In our industry, with so many styles of play and so many different genres just how do we decide what makes something stand out above the rest? What makes one game in one genre better than another game in a different genre? In film and music it is fairly easy for something to rise above the rest of the pack and transcend its own genre limitations (Blade Runner is a perfect example). In gaming, however, with so much out there that is SO different (Puzzle, Racing, Shooting, Sports, etc) its hard to find that one 'classic' that all gamers can recognize as a pinnacle of the industry.
Actually, interestingly enough, I'd make the argument that Modern Warfare 2 IS that game - think about it, most people I've played with and most people I've sold the game too aren't 'hardcore' gamers and many don't even play shooters other than Infinity Ward's opus. If any title transcends genres it would be the one many call 'unoriginal' - and isn't that funny? We have games that make us ask why, and we have games that unite players and speak to the human condition already; they are right in front of us, we just choose to ignore them because it may include a number in its title... #development
@ostartero: Fun, entertaining, all the same damn thing. If I'm not enjoying the game on a fundamental level, then no amount of good story and artistic qualities will make it right. #development
When I initially read the quote on Kotaku about how comics are "in the pop cultural ghetto", I was grossly offended, and found the statement absurd. I was ready to dismiss his argument as garbage right there.
Sigh. But, no, I actually bothered to read his whole article, and it's rather absurd.
His complaint isn't that games aren't artistic- it's that the artistic games aren't "mainstream" enough. The aforementioned comic book complaint? He doesn't complain that comic books aren't artistic or diverse enough- he complains because most people see them as entertainment, not art. Instead of focusing on actual artistic integrity or diversity, his entire article obsesses on sales numbers.
He actually compares video games to Celine Dione, arguing that, because Celine Dione reaches a greater market, her work is superior.
He completely ignores the cultural concept of art. Art doesn't care if it is "approved" by the mainstream or not, it simply exists for and of itself.
And, for that reason, there are plenty of culturally and artistically successful games and comics.
I mean, Van Gogh only sold one Mona Lisa in his lifetime, and only a few people even cared. #development
@Ad-hominem: erm.. I think you mean Van Gough only sold one Sunflower.... Da Vinci painted the Mona Lisa.... but I do see your point, just because something is popular it does not make it any good, just because something is ignored by the vast majority it does not make it worthless #development
Being too linear has serious issues, probably not the best example, but for a RPG FFX was way way way too linear (still loved that game though)
And I found GTA IV to be on the other end of the scale, too open ended, the story seemed disjointed as a resut of it.. I know many will disagree though. #development
@WhiteMage Says Fix the Promotion System: He's not saying they're bad. He's saying that when interaction is separated from story in a linear game-scene-game-scene setup, it limits the way games can convey ideas. #development
@WhiteMage Says Fix the Promotion System: No, you're focusing on the game as a whole. He's focusing on the notion of interactivity conveying ideas. Linearity doesn't hurt a game's ability to convey ideas.
The trend towards separating interaction and story (i.e., the actual actions you're performing not having an intrinsic meaning) is what the author has a beef with. By working within the usual "story as reward" paradigm, we're limiting other options for storytelling. #development
@WhiteMage Says Fix the Promotion System: None of the cutscenes in FFX count as games. They're movies. That they exist within a game is irrelevant, as the game part of FFX does not say anything meaningful, and the "movie" part of FFX does not teach us anything about how to make better games.
It's not that they can't be enjoyable or meaningful, as that they don't do anything to further the growth of the medium. That's fine in and of itself, but if that's all you end up seeing getting made, the medium will stagnate completely. #development
@WhiteMage Says Fix the Promotion System: If both are not intertwined in better ways, then yes, there is no development in terms of bettering gaming as an artistic medium.
If you're going to have a story driven game, the point of improvement is in the interface between play and narrative.
If you're going to keep the game parts completely separate, then making the stories better means you're studying cinematography and screenwriting. Neither of which have anything to do with gaming. And no matter how much you iterate on the combat and progression systems, if you're not saying anything with them, they're not art.
And this is important because you *can* make the gameplay into story. BioShock actually provides a few good examples of this, despite having some very large flaws that I take great issue with. The one part of the game that was absolutely brilliant in terms of a narrative device was the "Would you kindly" reveal. It was clever, and it turned what you'd been doing the whole time into a meaningful narrative element. I personally felt that the whole "it's a stab in the back" thing they were going for ended up falling flat due to the issues I had with other parts of the game, but tying the gameplay and the narrative together in that fashion was legitimately brilliant.
And then there are games like Myst, or Shadow of the Colossus, where the act of exploration is the method by which the narrative is revealed and explored. Or games like Fl0wer, which create a feel and a mood and an emotion via their gameplay. These are all methods that move our understanding of gameplay forward, they push the boundaries of how we understand what it means to play a game.
Final Fantasy X does not do this, despite being a good game, with a good story.
I don't like artsy fartsy games and prefer lowbrow hack and slash and mindless action over thought provoking soul-searching psychodramas where your very existence is brought into question and you are left feeling inspired and in a metaphysically altered state of being after being touched by your game or whatever.
It's still worth discussing and reading about though. But I just inwardly roll my eyes. If I want a book, I'll read a book. If I want to watch a movie I will watch one. If I want art I will create it (professional artist here) or I will go seek out art that others have created and enjoy it. If I want to pull out a sword and stab some orc in the chest, I will play a video game and not wonder "why" I'm doing it. I'm doing it because it's the only venue I have outside of LARPING for crying out loud that I can do it in any virtual sense of the word.
I will say though that the whole Comic book thing was misrepresented. How many movies have been based on comics? How many of the top movies of all time have been based on comics? If that isn't art imitating life then... His example there doesn't hold water and he could have definitely used a better comparison tool.
Now, time to get mad at me because I don't agree. Don't forget to try to convice me that I'm wrong, and your opinion is the right one for me, that's an art in itself.
Edited by Sobersean: aka Doctor Aquafresh at 11/14/09 12:59 PM
Sobersean: aka Doctor Aquafresh was starred
Sobersean: aka Doctor Aquafresh was unstarred
@Sobersean: I disagree somewhat. I mean, sometimes I want a mindless hack and slash, but thought provoking experiences are nice too. Why can we not have both?
I mean, there are movies like Rambo, and then there is sstuff like the Matrix. #development
@Sobersean: there's no reason why a game shouldn't be more than lowbrow entertainment. "If I want to read a book I'll read a book" is just a dumbass excuse to cover up the fact that you're childish. #development
1) that we are all different, with different views of through provoking and depth. Really? The Matrix Thought provoking?
2) just because some guy says "sorry games are not art" doesn't mean he is right. It is the culture that decides what art is, not a few individuals. #development
@Sobersean: Congratulations, you have completely missed his point. Plot has nothing to do with interactivity. Some games have stupid convoluted plots, but that's not artsy-fartsy; that's ... something else.
The point is that games have separated gameplay from story, perhaps in an attempt to be more like other media. It is a problem I also have with interactive media. No reason why art cannot be interactive. No reason why art cannot coexist with "popcorn games". But for it to be art, likely it will have to do something that cannot be done in other media, which means that it's point must be told via interactivity.
As for comic book movies, how many people that enjoyed the X-Men movies read the comics they were based on? How many people that saw Hell Boy read any of Mike Mignola's work? And what of Watchmen and V for Vendetta? You realize, don't you, that every time Alan Moore writes a comic book, his goal is to make something that could not be done in any other medium? That's why he has opposed so vehemently the porting of his work to other media. Never mind Citizen Kane, where is the Alan Moore of video games? #development
@Sobersean: There's Michael Bay and then there's Orson Welles. There's Thomas Kincaid and there's Leonardo da Vinci. There's Stephen King and there's Charles Dickens. There's Kanye West and there's Mozart.
There can be variations within media, not all video games have to be "lowbrow hack and slash" nor will there ever be a time when "soul-searching psychodramas" is all you will be able to buy at your local Wal-mart. #development
@blackswordca: At the time, I couldn't think of anything but the Matrix lol. I know there are deeper examples though, but something like the Matrix does make me think.
Like this Japanese movie called Yamato no Tachi or something. It was about a bunch of Japanese people on Japan's last battleship that was getting attacked by the allies, and they knew they were all going to die.
It just goes to show you, in war we are really all the same, even what we fight for. #development
I think of Rockstar as the David Chase (Sopranos, later Northern Exposure) of games. They don't re-invent the wheel (and therefore don't frighten the money-men or alienate the audience hive-mind), but they use that familiarity of genre as a field to explore some new and experimental storytelling ideas. #development
@Halo_Override: Though to be fair, once Rob Morrow decided he didn't want to be the star of a successful, popular, boundary-pushing television show anymore, they were kinda backed into a corner. But that last stretch of Provenza/Polo/Maggie+Chris was pretty painful. #development
Honestly, those that don't think that Games are a form of 'Art' are narrow minded individuals.
On top of that, he he believes comic books not to be art, then thats a whole new kettle off fish.
I'm sure that there are many, many comic readers that would disagree. Me included. And to be honest, rightly so.
On art work alone, comics would be classed as art. On top of that, to go into the development of stories and characters, that too, in some form, could be classed as art.
We should now have become mature enough as a human beings to realise that art is not classified by age, but that seems to be what it ends up being.
For instance, the Mona Lisa or Devine Comedy or Citizen Kane are usually classed as art, why? Because they added a new perspective on the posibilities?
If thats the case, then many games could be classed as art, and as well should be.
People who still believe games not to be art are narrow minded.
They have to look at what has happened and what has been developed from that point. What has been made and experienced.
If they can not find 'art' within gaming, then the simply aren't looking. #development
@GunFlame: Lots of things can be classified as art, since the term "art" itself is so vague. But how many games and comics can be considered good art? In comics (or graphic novels I suppose) there are certainly some outstanding works that approach our best literature and cinema, but those cases seem to be the exception to the rule. I think that's what he was getting at with the phrase "cultural ghetto." Can you imagine if every movie had the same plot as the graphic novels that are on the shelves right now? Don't get me wrong: they do what they do very well (or else Hollywood wouldn't be cashing in on their success), but if I wanted to learn something new, I wouldn't go looking for enlightenment in a comic book store.
The same could be said for games for the most part. There's a handful that have surprised me in the past, but being surprised is just as much about what you're expecting as it is about what you experienced. Set the bar low enough and even a modest achievement seems like a huge step in the right direction. #development
@GunFlame: games *can* be "art," (as in something that compares favorably to quality literature and cinema) but that doesn't mean they *are.* There are maybe a handful of games that qualify (not sure what they are, but I'll just assume they exist), and they're just a drop in the bucket. #development
I would say that there are many people that would call a lot of games and comics masterful works of art.
This would be coming from the gamers and readers that are fans of the said media, the 'experts' we could say.
If they believe that part of there passion is art, then, it is.
This guy using art as the base of the argument, but it just carries no water.
Even in the past, something that has been considered art by one, could be considered blasphemas by another.
To say that 2 medias aren't art, based on popularity is just wrong.
Popularity is dictated by the time, go forward 40 years or so and there will be games that would be thought of as works of art.
So, why not cut the bull shit, call what we see, and tell people that games can be considered a form of art.
If it gets called an art or not, it won't have any effect on the gaming public. Buy surely this should also not have an effect on whether or not it can be called art.
But hey, i'm just a gamer with a long time passion who would class some of there gaming experiences as 'art'. #development
@GunFlame: I think your point is valid. Games do deserve to be considered art. The difference between our opinions, though, is that I think good art should deserve to be called good art. Simply changing the label won't change people's perceptions of video games. We need to support the games that have earned the right to be put up for comparison with history's greatest achievements, otherwise we're simply diluting what it means to be a great artist. In any case, I appreciate your passion for the issue. Your stance is actually very similar to one that I held a few years ago about art in general. But that's also why I think I can see the flaw in it. #development
While i believe that videogames may well be a mass-accepted media one day, it will never be an inherited part of human culture.
The gaming community is a subculture, the technology generation arguement can only go so far. While in our own community we may see games such as SoTC as a reverie/art, it will never be acknowledged as such outside our community.
Games can be art, just not publicly accepted art. Gaming as a medium can mature, sure, but the negative connotation to videogames, as it still exists, will not allow for public acceptance just yet.
@D-K, stubbed his toe..*swears*: You have to tell us why gaming as a subculture is an inevitable state of affairs in order to make the first assertion. Never is a strong word. #development
@EolirinX: That'd be quite the wall of text i'm affraid.. There is no way i can convey the message properly in this format, but i'm sure with a little lateral thinking, you'll get what i'm driving at. #development
@D-K, stubbed his toe..*swears*: You do know that movies were pretty much scorned when they first came out too, right? And were for a good few decades?
Inevitability is going to be down to whether or not developers bother trying to do more than the same thing over and over again. (That's the core of what Hecker means about falling into a comic book like trap, where even if there's really amazing stuff, it doesn't remove the social stigma of the medium.)
The ball is very firmly in the game developers' court, and with things like the Wii and DS, we're moving further away from a future that's limited to a specific subculture. And then there's the statistics on people under age 40 and their views on gaming being heartening; there're generational forces at work, and they're almost universally positive for gaming eventually becoming culturally mainstream. #development
This is exactly how I feel! This is what needs to happen! This needs to be acted upon, not repeated in voice time and time again! By the grace of god, developers, ask why. #development
@vid3oman64: No problem, you'll go get rid of all the trolls, i'll get to work on all the teabaggers and we'll meet back here at half past impossible.. mmkay?
This is a subject that can not be acted upon, only slowly shifted over time. #development
Really, it needs to stay above 24FPS.. anything faster and the human eye really can't make a distinction. The only problem is if you're sitting right on that edge and turn a corner to a garden or something with a lot of polygons, bam, you see a slow down.
So really, like protector one said, if they can keep it above 30 and keep it locked down above 30 than I really don't care at all what my FPS is. #ratchetclank
@Aphex Ninja: The human eye CAN make a distinction between 24 FPS and 60 FPS. The difference is, in fact, enormous, and I'm not pretending to be one of those cocky graphics whores. It's a very basic difference, and a very noticeable one. #ratchetclank
@RockyRan: You can notice it being smoother, but it's not as dramatic as it once was in older games. Hell, I wouldn't have built the rig I have if I didn't care about high FPS .. my point is basic film FPS, not necessarily gaming as you can take a whole bunch of other factors into play as well .. cpu, ram, etc.. all which help boost FPS .. something that wouldn't exist in film.
So as I do see your point, I can tell you that its not so much a distinction between frames as it is a smoother game. #ratchetclank
11/15/09
This is a statement that really bothers me. Why? Because it suggest that what speaks to me as an individual isn't a particular moment, or something off script but a cutscene - and while the developers may have put in a lot of work into a cutscene and have included some meaningful and impacting dialogue and imagery that does not mean that it is what affects me the most.
In his examples of Batman and MW2 the moments that spoke to me the most were things that were just happening in-game, and not carefully crafted cutscenes. In Batman it came at moment where there was a room full of enemies (like always) and I was given the option of taking them all out silently or merely sneaking past the all. There was no reason to even engage in conflict and yet I chose to nonchalantly walk right up to the group and beat the living daylights out of each individual. Why did I need to do something so violent? It wasn't an option suggested by the developers and it was totally unnecessary, and yet, I felt the need, if not the desire, to want to brutal beat each individual. This was a moment that spoke to my human condition because it suggested that, if given the chance (and the power) I would rather see my enemies suffer by my hands than leave them to just stand around and act stupidly (or later come to knock me out from behind).
In MW2, the moment that stands out in my memory was a segment that was scripted but it was the actions of one of my friends that caused me to think about its importance. In the mission 'Wolverines' when America is first invaded there is a section where your commander carries a wounded soldier on his back from one restaurant to another - while being fired at. You, as the player, are told to go down there and cover them - protect them as they travel to safety. I ran out of the restaurant, straight to the other building and risked my life to make sure they made it safely across; I shot anyone who got in my sights, and used my body as a shield to protect what I assume was an indestructible NPC. At first, I thought nothing of it, until I watched my friend complete the same mission. When he was asked to defend the characters he didn't leave the building, he didn't even move to the door to cover them as they walked up, he didn't even look at them - instead he just kept firing at a rather annoying enemy that was popping up and down at the exact moments my friend was firing this sniper rifle. I told him he had to defend them and he just shrugged it off, when the ordeal was over and they were safe (and the wack-a-mole enemy still alive) I asked him: 'why didn't you protect them?' to which he replied 'why would I? I'm not going to die for people I don't care about?' And then the moment clicked for me: I was willing to leave the relative safety of a building to protect my team regardless of how real or fake they were because there was a part of me that just couldn't let them be out there on their own when they needed help - my friend on the other hand wasn't at all moved by their plight, he came first and if they made it, it probably just meant more heads for the enemy to aim at before they got to him. This moment, more than any other in the game (cutscene or not) really spoke to me and the 'human condition' and the difference between my friend and myself and out priorities.
Perhaps Hecker is missing what is right in front of him; yes, cutscenes play an unnecessarily large role in today's games: with the current technology and countless examples of 'interactive story telling' there isn't really a need to rely on them to tell stories any longer. But in many cases what speaks to the human condition isn't so much what the developers put in the story as it is the individual moments and how they speak to us as individual gamers. #development
11/14/09
Big-money developers need to ask "why" every so often, even when making power-fantasy games. But after you ask why - and I think more developers do this than Hecker gives credit - you have to ask "how". "How" is the troubling question here, and it's the part that trips everyone up.
Hecker only makes a few concrete suggestions about how to answer this question:
1. Make storytelling more interactive; stop depending on cut-scenes.
2. Stop over-emphasising military and superhero power fantasies.
Fair enough. In short, "make more interactive and diverse games", which everyone would like, but no one seems to know how to do consistently or profitably.
In other words, the "problem", and I'm not convinced there is one at all, is not with developers, but with the market they serve, which punishes flawed but unique visions, and rewards polished repetition. #development
11/14/09
They're are plenty of people who create music, write novels, and make movies for art instead of their bottom line.
We need to make game development more accessible, or at least comparable to indie film making. #development
11/14/09
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11/14/09
Arguing that because the most popular video games all share similar traits they are causing a 'cultural ghetto' while using film and music as examples of diversity is contradictory. Most music sounds similar within each genre and most films all share the same plot conventions. You can rarely have diversity, cultural impact and be popular all at the same time. It isn't impossible but it is rare and expecting it of most video games is naive. Modern Warfare 2, for example, will be popular, and like the first, will have a large cultural impact (most of the people I've sold the game to where I work are the same kind of people that buy Wii Fit) - however, no one is going to call the game diverse. Assassin's Creed was all three, but it wasn't perfect and its the only game that I can think of from the 360/PS3 consoles that pulls off being all four of his criteria (revenue, units sold, diversity, and cultural impact - after AC came out a lot of games began to add that sort of stealth; it was no longer all shadows and sitting still).
To be diverse you need to be prepared to sacrifice revenue - occasionally it works out, like Guitar Hero, but when something diverse comes along and succeeds you get imitators (or sequels and spin offs) and then you are back to saturating the market with the same thing. Unlike movies and music it is very difficult to create your own diverse project. Its possible on PC, and consoles are beginning to get into the indie scene but most of it is crap and the good stuff - like in film and music - often finds a loyal but small audience and that is considered a failure in our industry because we still have some growing up to do.
I think, instead of worrying about CoD or Halo being diverse we should nurture our niche games. The big guys will always be similar, we as gamers like certain things and the big games always give us those things in expertly crafted titles but the small and 'diverse' games are forgotten and then you get articles like this that piss and moan about the 'lack of diversity' and having a 'culture ghetto'. NO! The diverse stuff is out there and sometimes its amazing but we're to busy yelling about how the game that sells 8 million copies doesn't break any new ground or 'plays it safe' to notice that something new and risky is calling out for our attention. Who cares if MW2 isn't diverse? Someone is taking the risk this guy is talking about, and someone out there is creating a game with a 'why?' behind it but it won't get any attention because it won't sell a million copies and it won't have sold those million copies because no one payed it any attention, they were to busy saying 'everything is like Halo'.
We need to get past complaining about the redundancy of big games, like film and music IT WILL ALWAYS BE THAT WAY - but in film and music they appreciate the small things, they give them festivals and coverage in the media, we don't do that in gaming, we shove the little guy to side. Our media doesn't care, maybe it'll get a post on a site if the author has played the game or it starts making waves but magazines don't really cover the small guys and web sites don't either. Unless its a new IP from Activision or EA most couldn't give to shits; and this is the problem, perhaps instead of looking for originality from the major publishers we should find the 'diamond in the rough' so to speak, stop talking about the lack of diversity if you aren't willing to look for originality. If I were to walk you down the main aisle of a video store or music store you'd say: 'well these are all the same, nothing is original where's the different stuff' and I'd reply 'well if you turn the corner, you'll find the less popular but original stuff'. For example, a film called 'Starting out in the Evening' is one of my favorite movies, well it sure as hell isn't going to be beside Transformers, same goes for 'One Week' - another great movie (fellow Canadians, watch. this. movie). Turn the proverbial corner, seek out the originality and the diversity, don't expect it to be thrown in your lap...
11/15/09
If you look at the top 50 grossing films of all time it is dominated by sci-fi, fantasy and comic films.
However I think part of the argument is that many "niche" films still make money, a lot of Deniro films are definitely not bog standard Taxi Driver, Casino, Goodfellas, Raging Bull, but they all grossed profits. Million dollar baby made money and won an Oscar or three as did Brokeback Mountain. Okay they didn't make as much money as Star Wars or Lord of the rings or Harry Potter or Spiderman, but not everything can.
But I think part of the problem is that it is difficult to ascertain what our equivalent of Goodfellas or Brokeback or Blade Runner is?
Is it World of Goo? not really because those films still had budgets and named actors, World of Goo would be probably more Blair Witch. Is it Deus ex? Fahrenheit? will if so then there isn't a problem because both those games sold units enough to make reasonable money and won a lot of respect.
Is it Sims? well if so then we really don't have a problem at all because it is one of the best selling game series of all time. #development
11/15/09
See, Paranormal Activity gained a lot of momentum by finding its small audience and exploiting it. Suddenly it was all over the net, it was in reputable papers and popular magazines. But the small games in our industry don't receive that treatment, sure if it comes from a well known publisher than it will (like Valve with Portal) but more often than not it won't receive any coverage. I really think this is what we need to get passed - instead of cover stories about the latest Activision or EA title spend some time with the indie side of our industry. The risk with that however is that there are a lot of terrible independant games out there - A LOT - so I think what our industry, or rather, our media, needs to do is find the success story, the Paranormal Activity, if you will and exploit it, parade it around and tell us all how great it is. If the big publishers see that we want risk, and we want new things and it will grant them coverage and money than they will respond. Right now, they have no reason to branch out, and why would they? They make millions on what is already a guaranteed success - DJ Hero, a true risk from Activision even if it carried the Hero name, was a failure, while Guitar Hero continues to do well. So why go out on a limb?
Sometimes the coverage doesn't work well either - Brutal Legend hasn't worked out too well for EA, despite a ton of media coverage and a being told by said media that: 'oh well its Tim Shafer, everyone should love it'. Its difficult to really nail down what the issue is because more often than not, no one really knows themselves. Yes, we all want risk but at what cost? Wouldn't it be better for Activision to do something new in an already existing title than create a whole new IP? We get the game we love, they get the money they love and the industry gets something new (see: Call of Duty 4's multiplayer). It truly is a double edged sword - you can take a risk and be original, but you may also alienate the majority of players and the game could flop. I don't want to be hard on the industry because at the end of the day I think they are doing a great job. I'd like to see some new things put I would also be happy if those new things were introduced in the games I already know (add a little spice to things, raise the bar for what a sequel can be, not just a cash grab).
The overall feeling I was also trying to get across, at least from my perspective, is than at least once a week I see an article or hear a gamer, complaining about a lack of original titles and they almost always (especially the gaming journalist) expect the 'diverse' titles to be handed to them by Microsoft, or EA, or Activision and they tell me that our industry is broken, and will fail if they don't create something new - but these same journalists won't cover or even mention the truly original and diverse games that are already out there and I think that is hypocritical.
I completely agree with you when you say: '...I think part of the problem is that it is difficult to ascertain what our equivalent of Goodfellas or Brokeback or Blade Runner is?' You hit the nail on the head with that statement. In our industry, with so many styles of play and so many different genres just how do we decide what makes something stand out above the rest? What makes one game in one genre better than another game in a different genre? In film and music it is fairly easy for something to rise above the rest of the pack and transcend its own genre limitations (Blade Runner is a perfect example). In gaming, however, with so much out there that is SO different (Puzzle, Racing, Shooting, Sports, etc) its hard to find that one 'classic' that all gamers can recognize as a pinnacle of the industry.
Actually, interestingly enough, I'd make the argument that Modern Warfare 2 IS that game - think about it, most people I've played with and most people I've sold the game too aren't 'hardcore' gamers and many don't even play shooters other than Infinity Ward's opus. If any title transcends genres it would be the one many call 'unoriginal' - and isn't that funny? We have games that make us ask why, and we have games that unite players and speak to the human condition already; they are right in front of us, we just choose to ignore them because it may include a number in its title... #development
11/14/09
Or else it will be a boring game. It could have the greatest story in the world, but it will fail as a game.
This whole "games need to be art" movement is really irksome.
11/14/09
Is the movie "Titanic" or any other movie based on a tragedy fun? No, they're entertaining.
If all games stay as mindless "fun" then the industry will stay dominated by teenage/college boys. #development
11/14/09
11/14/09
Sigh. But, no, I actually bothered to read his whole article, and it's rather absurd.
His complaint isn't that games aren't artistic- it's that the artistic games aren't "mainstream" enough. The aforementioned comic book complaint? He doesn't complain that comic books aren't artistic or diverse enough- he complains because most people see them as entertainment, not art. Instead of focusing on actual artistic integrity or diversity, his entire article obsesses on sales numbers.
He actually compares video games to Celine Dione, arguing that, because Celine Dione reaches a greater market, her work is superior.
He completely ignores the cultural concept of art. Art doesn't care if it is "approved" by the mainstream or not, it simply exists for and of itself.
And, for that reason, there are plenty of culturally and artistically successful games and comics.
I mean, Van Gogh only sold one Mona Lisa in his lifetime, and only a few people even cared. #development
11/14/09
11/14/09
My bad.
I feel silly now. #development
11/14/09
I don't like that he acts like linearity and familiar gameplay are automatically terrible. Linearity especially.
Hint: Linearity HELPS make games more "worthwhile" because it helps tell the story a lot better. #development
11/14/09
Being too linear has serious issues, probably not the best example, but for a RPG FFX was way way way too linear (still loved that game though)
And I found GTA IV to be on the other end of the scale, too open ended, the story seemed disjointed as a resut of it.. I know many will disagree though. #development
11/14/09
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11/14/09
11/14/09
The trend towards separating interaction and story (i.e., the actual actions you're performing not having an intrinsic meaning) is what the author has a beef with. By working within the usual "story as reward" paradigm, we're limiting other options for storytelling. #development
11/14/09
11/14/09
A linear video game is a fun middle ground between the two. #development
11/14/09
It's not that they can't be enjoyable or meaningful, as that they don't do anything to further the growth of the medium. That's fine in and of itself, but if that's all you end up seeing getting made, the medium will stagnate completely. #development
11/14/09
I am not understanding how ocassionally separating story from gameplay magically stagnates development of one of them or both.
It's a flawed concept. "Unless both are intertwined, both will stop developing"? That doesn't make any sense. #development
11/14/09
If you're going to have a story driven game, the point of improvement is in the interface between play and narrative.
If you're going to keep the game parts completely separate, then making the stories better means you're studying cinematography and screenwriting. Neither of which have anything to do with gaming. And no matter how much you iterate on the combat and progression systems, if you're not saying anything with them, they're not art.
And this is important because you *can* make the gameplay into story. BioShock actually provides a few good examples of this, despite having some very large flaws that I take great issue with. The one part of the game that was absolutely brilliant in terms of a narrative device was the "Would you kindly" reveal. It was clever, and it turned what you'd been doing the whole time into a meaningful narrative element. I personally felt that the whole "it's a stab in the back" thing they were going for ended up falling flat due to the issues I had with other parts of the game, but tying the gameplay and the narrative together in that fashion was legitimately brilliant.
And then there are games like Myst, or Shadow of the Colossus, where the act of exploration is the method by which the narrative is revealed and explored. Or games like Fl0wer, which create a feel and a mood and an emotion via their gameplay. These are all methods that move our understanding of gameplay forward, they push the boundaries of how we understand what it means to play a game.
Final Fantasy X does not do this, despite being a good game, with a good story.
11/14/09
It's still worth discussing and reading about though. But I just inwardly roll my eyes. If I want a book, I'll read a book. If I want to watch a movie I will watch one. If I want art I will create it (professional artist here) or I will go seek out art that others have created and enjoy it. If I want to pull out a sword and stab some orc in the chest, I will play a video game and not wonder "why" I'm doing it. I'm doing it because it's the only venue I have outside of LARPING for crying out loud that I can do it in any virtual sense of the word.
I will say though that the whole Comic book thing was misrepresented. How many movies have been based on comics? How many of the top movies of all time have been based on comics? If that isn't art imitating life then... His example there doesn't hold water and he could have definitely used a better comparison tool.
Now, time to get mad at me because I don't agree. Don't forget to try to convice me that I'm wrong, and your opinion is the right one for me, that's an art in itself.
11/14/09
I mean, there are movies like Rambo, and then there is sstuff like the Matrix. #development
11/14/09
11/14/09
I suppose your comment does prove two things.
1) that we are all different, with different views of through provoking and depth. Really? The Matrix Thought provoking?
2) just because some guy says "sorry games are not art" doesn't mean he is right. It is the culture that decides what art is, not a few individuals. #development
11/14/09
The point is that games have separated gameplay from story, perhaps in an attempt to be more like other media. It is a problem I also have with interactive media. No reason why art cannot be interactive. No reason why art cannot coexist with "popcorn games". But for it to be art, likely it will have to do something that cannot be done in other media, which means that it's point must be told via interactivity.
As for comic book movies, how many people that enjoyed the X-Men movies read the comics they were based on? How many people that saw Hell Boy read any of Mike Mignola's work? And what of Watchmen and V for Vendetta? You realize, don't you, that every time Alan Moore writes a comic book, his goal is to make something that could not be done in any other medium? That's why he has opposed so vehemently the porting of his work to other media. Never mind Citizen Kane, where is the Alan Moore of video games? #development
11/14/09
There can be variations within media, not all video games have to be "lowbrow hack and slash" nor will there ever be a time when "soul-searching psychodramas" is all you will be able to buy at your local Wal-mart. #development
11/14/09
Like this Japanese movie called Yamato no Tachi or something. It was about a bunch of Japanese people on Japan's last battleship that was getting attacked by the allies, and they knew they were all going to die.
It just goes to show you, in war we are really all the same, even what we fight for. #development
11/14/09
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11/14/09
Honestly, those that don't think that Games are a form of 'Art' are narrow minded individuals.
On top of that, he he believes comic books not to be art, then thats a whole new kettle off fish.
I'm sure that there are many, many comic readers that would disagree. Me included. And to be honest, rightly so.
On art work alone, comics would be classed as art. On top of that, to go into the development of stories and characters, that too, in some form, could be classed as art.
We should now have become mature enough as a human beings to realise that art is not classified by age, but that seems to be what it ends up being.
For instance, the Mona Lisa or Devine Comedy or Citizen Kane are usually classed as art, why? Because they added a new perspective on the posibilities?
If thats the case, then many games could be classed as art, and as well should be.
People who still believe games not to be art are narrow minded.
They have to look at what has happened and what has been developed from that point. What has been made and experienced.
If they can not find 'art' within gaming, then the simply aren't looking. #development
11/14/09
That is what i say to that. #development
11/14/09
The same could be said for games for the most part. There's a handful that have surprised me in the past, but being surprised is just as much about what you're expecting as it is about what you experienced. Set the bar low enough and even a modest achievement seems like a huge step in the right direction. #development
11/14/09
11/14/09
I would say that there are many people that would call a lot of games and comics masterful works of art.
This would be coming from the gamers and readers that are fans of the said media, the 'experts' we could say.
If they believe that part of there passion is art, then, it is.
This guy using art as the base of the argument, but it just carries no water.
Even in the past, something that has been considered art by one, could be considered blasphemas by another.
To say that 2 medias aren't art, based on popularity is just wrong.
Popularity is dictated by the time, go forward 40 years or so and there will be games that would be thought of as works of art.
So, why not cut the bull shit, call what we see, and tell people that games can be considered a form of art.
If it gets called an art or not, it won't have any effect on the gaming public. Buy surely this should also not have an effect on whether or not it can be called art.
But hey, i'm just a gamer with a long time passion who would class some of there gaming experiences as 'art'. #development
11/14/09
Just because they have been around longer doesn't mean that they have more quality.
In one way, it just means that they have just had time to make more shit.
And if you look at some movie and book stores, you would probably start to think that as well.
Just my opinion though. #development
11/14/09
11/14/09
Except there aren't.
"Just because they have been around longer doesn't mean that they have more quality."
I never said or implied that quality has anything to do with age. #development
11/14/09
The gaming community is a subculture, the technology generation arguement can only go so far. While in our own community we may see games such as SoTC as a reverie/art, it will never be acknowledged as such outside our community.
Games can be art, just not publicly accepted art. Gaming as a medium can mature, sure, but the negative connotation to videogames, as it still exists, will not allow for public acceptance just yet.
And honestly, I'm fine with that.
11/14/09
11/14/09
Any subculture is subjected to judgment of every culture by default. Big fish eat smaller fish. #development
11/14/09
11/14/09
11/15/09
Inevitability is going to be down to whether or not developers bother trying to do more than the same thing over and over again. (That's the core of what Hecker means about falling into a comic book like trap, where even if there's really amazing stuff, it doesn't remove the social stigma of the medium.)
The ball is very firmly in the game developers' court, and with things like the Wii and DS, we're moving further away from a future that's limited to a specific subculture. And then there's the statistics on people under age 40 and their views on gaming being heartening; there're generational forces at work, and they're almost universally positive for gaming eventually becoming culturally mainstream. #development
11/14/09
A million times, YES!
This is exactly how I feel! This is what needs to happen! This needs to be acted upon, not repeated in voice time and time again! By the grace of god, developers, ask why. #development
11/14/09
This is a subject that can not be acted upon, only slowly shifted over time. #development
11/14/09
11/13/09
10/30/09
10/30/09
So really, like protector one said, if they can keep it above 30 and keep it locked down above 30 than I really don't care at all what my FPS is. #ratchetclank
10/30/09
10/31/09
So as I do see your point, I can tell you that its not so much a distinction between frames as it is a smoother game. #ratchetclank
10/30/09
A) 30 fps or higher;
B) LOCKED DOWN.
10/30/09
Im looking at you Mass Effect. #ratchetclank