Frankly, I think both the 360 and PSwhatever controllers are garbage from an ergonomic standpoint. The 360 may be okay for people with tiny hands (kids, dainty women, etc.) but the one time I picked up a 360-for-PC controller it felt positively dinky in my hands. And the one time I picked up a Logitech PC controller that was based on the design of the Dualshock, I darn near shattered the thing with how fast I had to put it down. Those angled grips are so anti-ergonomic that I think my hands would have felt better if I'd simply dipped them in acid.
Say what you will about pretty much everything else in the Wii system, but the two-piece controller is definitely the way to go. Small hands, large hands, in-between hands, cthulhoid tentacles, it doesn't matter. The controller is however big and whatever shape you want it to be, based on how you choose to pose your arms while playing. Want to have a more traditional experience? Hold them near each other in front of you like a standard two-hand controller. Feel like being more casual about it? Drape one arm over the armrest, and rest the other on your leg. Maybe you're looking for new ways to challenge yourself? Wrap one arm around the back of your neck, and sit on the other one. #art
@Purple Dave: serious question:
how long have you been gaming? you don't sound like the average 12 years old kid, but indeed you complain like one.
now, on topic, I for one, am more sensitive to the pain caused by any nintendo D-Pads on my fingers, than any other kind of phisical damage.
Ergonomics are the human dimension proyected in the design of an usable object, and as far back as I can remember, controls are not only to hold, but to press buttons too.
If you take damage by holding a dualshock , then I can safely say I get damaged by using the wiimote's button, any of them . Wich is more anti-ergonomic? #art
@DLNO-001:
I own three consoles. A Wii, a black Atari 2600, and a wood-grain Atari 2600. I've suffered through all you "hardcore" gamers whinging about how the PS3 Boomerang looked ugly (don't care, looks fairly comfortable), and how the DS Phat supposedly caused hand cramps by being too large (it's actually because it's small, which gets worse with the DS Lite unless you strap it into some Nerf Armor). I've got an 8.75" handspan, and I'm telling you right now that both the 360 and PS3 controllers are utter garbage from an ergonomic standpoint.
For the record, I'm also sick of the fact that weekend handymen have cause the power tool industry to switch from pistol grip screwguns (which are great for driving screws without first drilling pilot holes) to T-grip screwguns (which are pretty much designed to just be comfortable to hold as you stand there doing nothing).
We live in a nation that has forgotten what "ergonomic" means, and since the market is driven by the consumers, it's making it more difficult for _me_ to find handheld devices that are actually designed to be comfortable rather than simply look cool. And if I was complaining like the average 12-year old, I'd be griping about how they should look cooler. #art
The funny thing is the whole 360 pad vs Dualshock argument basically boils down to how big your hands are.
To simplify:
If you have big hands - 360
Small hands - Dualshock
And if like me you find the idea of laying sprawled on the sofa with hands either side of you then the Wiimote is for you. Though I do prefer the dualshock to the 360 as I have small palms and long fingers. #art
@Odin: I find the most comfortable way to hold them varies.
360: Grab it full-on and wrap your hands around it.
DualShock: Set it on your fingers with fairly open hands - it won't fall - really. It takes effort to drop it.
When I hold a DualShock, the heels of my hands aren't even on it. Like that, it's the most comfortable controller I've ever used. The only issue I have is if I'm playing a fighting game for a long time, the underside screw hole near the d-pad makes a hell of a hot spot on the side of my middle finger. #art
@ph15h: Seriously, when I hear ergonomic table, I think curvy. When I think of a curvy table... I remember the ones from the milkbar scenes in Clockwork Orange. Not very utilitarian. #art
How do you have subterranean levels on a world with no terrain?
Joking aside, I've always found it peculiar that all the worlds in Star Wars are made up almost entirely of a single type of environment. Ice planet = Hoth; Desert planet = Tattooine; Swamp planet = Dagoba; Forest planet = Moon of Endor; etc., etc.
I'm excited they're putting such variety into Coruscant. I'm personally a little bored with the outer shell of the planet that's been in all the prequels. I can't wait to explore the under belly of the city and get a taste of that grittier Star Wars.
@excaleranth: Not entirely correct. Vista (in its 32-bit iteration) can address just a hair over three gigabytes of RAM... exactly the same as every other 32-bit operating system on Earth. However, Vista had 64-bit versions of all its RTM configurations... available at exactly the same price as the 32-bit versions. Windows 7 will also be available in 64-bit editions... and all 64-bit operating systems can safely address more RAM than you can fit into your motherboard.
It's worth pointing out that one particular flavor of Windows XP had 64-bit support, but it was not an intended release at launch and is not an easy piece of software to work with. Despite that, many gluttons love to be punished, and swear by XP64 to this day. Ugh.
Sort of off-topic, but on the subject of pronounciation, how do you say Ico? I always pronounced it like eye-co, but then when I started to hear people say it out loud, they all seem to pronounce it like Eco.
In the movies, it's been pronounced as Coru-sant and Corrus-kant. Maybe the Star Wars equivalent of a regional (or we can assume planetary) dialect at play? meh, I don't know. I think it's safe to say you can get away with pronoucing it either way. I say Corrus-kant too!
@Ursus-Veritas: Sorta like Han's name. Everyone but Lando says it like "Hon" as in Honolulu, where as Billy Dee says "Han" like you were going to say "hand"
@Showmeyomoves!: Hmmm, I'm sure it was aside from Anakin's use. And the real word itself in the real world is comes from 'Coruscant' - as in, like unto a Corusca gem - which is pronounced Corrus-Kant. Meh, I stand beside my planetary dialect theory.
@WhiteMage: People can pronounce things differently you know. I say Ee-nix as well over Eh-nix. I thought it made more sense, especially when you see people saying 'Squeenix'.
@Ursus-Veritas: I'm well aware people can pronounce things different ways. That does not in any way change that words/names have a distinct pronunciation in mind by those who create them.
@Sobersean: This is like Goblet of Fire all over again (when Rowling spells out how to pronounce Hermione, and I had been doing it wrong for years). And that sounds a bit like Square-Anus.
@WhiteMage: Not sure, just saying that we say "Eenix" here and always have, but then you hear Gametrailers reviews of SE games among others and they always pronounce it as "Eh nix". When you hear it that way it just sounds so off if you're used to pronouncing it as EEnix.
Would take someone with more time than me to dig up an official SE game where the intro says "Eh nix" officially or whatever. I have a few but I'm about to get too busy to look through them.
@iRaybot: This is the most intelligent comment I've ever seen.
Much like how ellen is eelin and ever is eever and enemy is eenemy and enter is eenter and emily is eemily and elevator is eelevator, right?
Jesus christ, here's the wacky thing: Those language rules you learned in 1st grade? The ones that say a vowel-consonant-vowel sequence means the first vowel is a long one? Yeah, that's bullshit that barely applies.
Plus it's not even a word, it's a name, so it is pronounced however the people who madeit up say it is pronouined. Are you enix? No? Then let someone who knows what they're talking about explain it.
Edited by WhiteMage says fix the comments grr at 10/10/09 2:41 PM
WhiteMage says fix the comments grr was starred
WhiteMage says fix the comments grr was unstarred
@iRaybot: Yeah I always heard that Enix was a take on the word "Phoenix" which was kind of obvious to me how it would be pronounced, because you wouldn't say "Phenix".
Then, to confuse it worse, you read how the Japanese word would be said and it would be "Enikkusu", which would be pronounced as "Eh Nee Koo Soo" (right?) so I see where people would be pronouncing it that way as well.
@WhiteMage: I'm studying the nature of the english language as part of my BA course, and that rule applies alot more than you think it does my friend.
'Ee' is the sound that, out of the 40 abstract sounds used in the english language, is typically utilised in word construction instead of the 'Eh' sound. More often than not, if the word begins with the letter E, it's pronounce using that 'Ee' interjection - that 'eh' is a dialectic occurence.
@WhiteMage: Oh I'm sorry that the language structure and rules sentient beings have used for thousands of years - that every sentient being is subconciously born with knowledge of for christ's sake -isn't good enough for you.
The rules of language are only 'ridiculous' and 'extremely inconsistent' if you don't really know what you're talking about. Which, by the looks of things, you do not.
@Ursus-Veritas: English is a ridiculously hard language for non-native speakers to learn, because it's a cluster of other languages and doesn't make any sense to them. It's disorganized and hte basic rules we're taught to follow as a rule are not truly rules and are not consistent whatsoever-
if there are multiple exceptions, it is not consistent. We ARE taught that vowel-consonant-vowel means the first vowel is long, but that's not consistently true at all! Right now I see multiple words that show that- Image, video, kotaku(the a), Veritas, something, ridiculous, about. Do I have ot go on? He said, extremely rudely, "ENGLISH SAYS THAT IT IS ENIX BECAUSE THAT IS HOW IT WORKS" when I have just shown a whole bunch of exceptions to that supposed rule.
I before E except after C is the worst example.
And again, english rules for pronunciation? Still no bearing whatsoever! It's a name! It's made up! It's pronounced how they want it to be pronounced! And you cannot say "English says it is pronounced this way, therefore it is" because that simply isn't fact or proper reasoning- it's pronounced however they want it to be, it doesn't follow set rules. As proven right there in that video- they pronounce it Square Eh-nix. SO all this "GOD YOU'RE STUPID ENGLISH LANGUAGE RULES SAY IT IS EENIX THEREFORE IT IS" crap you people are spouting is completely wrong!
@Akiraa22: Yeah I was looking for videos like that that I had seen in the past, but my Youtube-fu had failed me. As far as what you win? A high five? On the down low? Ooooh too slow!
@WhiteMage: 'And again, english rules for pronunciation? Still no bearing whatsoever!'
Except for, you know, the existence of Dialetics? If you'd taken the liberty to understand and read what I'm saying, you'd see that I said the 'Eenix/Ehnix' thing can be boiled down to dialetics ('More often than not, if the word begins with the letter E, it's pronounce using that 'Ee' interjection - that 'eh' is a dialectic occurence.', there you go if you can't be bothered to go back and check). You can't say that the rules don't apply just because it's convenient for your side of the arguement White Mage!
We're not interested in the physical act of turning a page in a book, just as the act of pressing "play" on a remote isn't what brings us to watch movies. The few ways in which our input affects experiences within these mediums are trivial at most.
So the source of our interest towards them can be found almost completely from elements of the output of the media. Many times, these elements are found almost exclusively within the narrative (which is a subset of the output, and can be thought of in this case simply as a string of events that spans the length of the media).
Ultimately, however, the disposition of a person towards a book or movie is determined not by the output itself, but by how we interpret that output.
The potential magnitude of our disposition towards a narrative is almost always directly proportional to the percentage of elements in the narrative that we feel we can understand and thus empathize with on some level. We can only understand something in terms of the what we already know, so elements of a narrative that we understand are elements that we've translated to our own experiences or to some other part of ourself.
In other words, our maximum enjoyment of a narrative in a book or movie is limited by how frequently we can translate elements in a narrative to elements in our own life (whether or not we consciously make that translation). Lets call these specific narrative elements "relatable."
When a narrative contains contradictions such as non-canonical character behavior, we are forced to strengthen our suspension of disbelief. If we cannot, then much of our connection to the narrative (the set of relatable elements) we be severed. So it is important that narratives be created with careful attention placed on being believable and consistent. But Unlike books, and movies, however, the narrative of a game at any time during gameplay is determined by the user's input an instant before. Then a user generally has the freedom to cause events that may not seem consistent to events that came before it. This is generally a huge issue in video game narratives. In response, game developers have to do the best they can to reduce the frequency and severity of any possible contradictory actions the user can create.
Some games take a more tedious (but arguably less risky) approach of preemptively removing the most noticeable potential contradictions by either restricting a player's actions in some way, or providing canonical explanations via text/video/audio. Using similar in-game cues, the narrative of a game can also be strengthened by providing more "evidence" that it is self-consistent, and complete, and thus more likely to be relatable as discussed above.
Other games try a more simple, but possibly more effective (and arguably very risky) approach of providing a minimal exposition upon which the narrative
will grow such that the elements in the exposition are generally relatable to most users. Trying to obtain minimality of the exposition is key as it would only allow for a comparatively small number of potential user actions that would cause a self-contradicting narrative. Thus a user's narrative throughout the game would likely have a good chance of including a relatively small number of elements that are not relatable do to canonical inconsistency.
Said another way, a game with a very simple yet relatable exposition, would have a better chance at having a relatable narrative, because the exposition is simple enough that user actions will rarely cause any conflict. Also, as user actions will provide most of the narrative elements, the user will generally find them them to be comparable. This approach has the potential to make the game narrative both very personal, and potentially much more engaging.
Ueda's and his team have done an incredible job at realizing the narrative potential of the latter approach.
11/06/09
Say what you will about pretty much everything else in the Wii system, but the two-piece controller is definitely the way to go. Small hands, large hands, in-between hands, cthulhoid tentacles, it doesn't matter. The controller is however big and whatever shape you want it to be, based on how you choose to pose your arms while playing. Want to have a more traditional experience? Hold them near each other in front of you like a standard two-hand controller. Feel like being more casual about it? Drape one arm over the armrest, and rest the other on your leg. Maybe you're looking for new ways to challenge yourself? Wrap one arm around the back of your neck, and sit on the other one. #art
11/06/09
how long have you been gaming? you don't sound like the average 12 years old kid, but indeed you complain like one.
now, on topic, I for one, am more sensitive to the pain caused by any nintendo D-Pads on my fingers, than any other kind of phisical damage.
Ergonomics are the human dimension proyected in the design of an usable object, and as far back as I can remember, controls are not only to hold, but to press buttons too.
If you take damage by holding a dualshock , then I can safely say I get damaged by using the wiimote's button, any of them . Wich is more anti-ergonomic? #art
02:09 AM
I own three consoles. A Wii, a black Atari 2600, and a wood-grain Atari 2600. I've suffered through all you "hardcore" gamers whinging about how the PS3 Boomerang looked ugly (don't care, looks fairly comfortable), and how the DS Phat supposedly caused hand cramps by being too large (it's actually because it's small, which gets worse with the DS Lite unless you strap it into some Nerf Armor). I've got an 8.75" handspan, and I'm telling you right now that both the 360 and PS3 controllers are utter garbage from an ergonomic standpoint.
For the record, I'm also sick of the fact that weekend handymen have cause the power tool industry to switch from pistol grip screwguns (which are great for driving screws without first drilling pilot holes) to T-grip screwguns (which are pretty much designed to just be comfortable to hold as you stand there doing nothing).
We live in a nation that has forgotten what "ergonomic" means, and since the market is driven by the consumers, it's making it more difficult for _me_ to find handheld devices that are actually designed to be comfortable rather than simply look cool. And if I was complaining like the average 12-year old, I'd be griping about how they should look cooler. #art
11/06/09
To simplify:
If you have big hands - 360
Small hands - Dualshock
And if like me you find the idea of laying sprawled on the sofa with hands either side of you then the Wiimote is for you. Though I do prefer the dualshock to the 360 as I have small palms and long fingers. #art
11/06/09
360: Grab it full-on and wrap your hands around it.
DualShock: Set it on your fingers with fairly open hands - it won't fall - really. It takes effort to drop it.
When I hold a DualShock, the heels of my hands aren't even on it. Like that, it's the most comfortable controller I've ever used. The only issue I have is if I'm playing a fighting game for a long time, the underside screw hole near the d-pad makes a hell of a hot spot on the side of my middle finger. #art
11/06/09
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10/10/09
Joking aside, I've always found it peculiar that all the worlds in Star Wars are made up almost entirely of a single type of environment. Ice planet = Hoth; Desert planet = Tattooine; Swamp planet = Dagoba; Forest planet = Moon of Endor; etc., etc.
10/10/09
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[www.hulu.com]
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shit.
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You can get 4gb of RAM for like $50.
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10/11/09
It's worth pointing out that one particular flavor of Windows XP had 64-bit support, but it was not an intended release at launch and is not an easy piece of software to work with. Despite that, many gluttons love to be punished, and swear by XP64 to this day. Ugh.
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I do know Jake Lloyd had trouble with pronouncing it the 'correct' way in Episode I (cause he was used to pronouncing it the 'wrong' way), and they eventually just took it out (he was supposed to say it during the dinner scene on Tatooine, with Jar-Jar, Qui-Gon, Padmé and Shmi).
Yes, I am a Star Wars nerd. I also make sure to spell "Wookiee" with two e's.
10/10/09
I guess it all depends which side of the galaxy you grew up on ...
10/10/09
Star Wars nerdery is fun =D
10/10/09
You've been a great audience. I'll be here all week. Try the Trikaloo Surprise and dont forget to tip your waiter.
10/10/09
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IT'S EH-NIX?!
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Would take someone with more time than me to dig up an official SE game where the intro says "Eh nix" officially or whatever. I have a few but I'm about to get too busy to look through them.
10/10/09
Much like how ellen is eelin and ever is eever and enemy is eenemy and enter is eenter and emily is eemily and elevator is eelevator, right?
Jesus christ, here's the wacky thing: Those language rules you learned in 1st grade? The ones that say a vowel-consonant-vowel sequence means the first vowel is a long one? Yeah, that's bullshit that barely applies.
Plus it's not even a word, it's a name, so it is pronounced however the people who madeit up say it is pronouined. Are you enix? No? Then let someone who knows what they're talking about explain it.
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10/10/09
Then, to confuse it worse, you read how the Japanese word would be said and it would be "Enikkusu", which would be pronounced as "Eh Nee Koo Soo" (right?) so I see where people would be pronouncing it that way as well.
10/10/09
10/10/09
'Ee' is the sound that, out of the 40 abstract sounds used in the english language, is typically utilised in word construction instead of the 'Eh' sound. More often than not, if the word begins with the letter E, it's pronounce using that 'Ee' interjection - that 'eh' is a dialectic occurence.
10/10/09
Still has absolutely no bearing on how the freaking word is pronounced.
There HAS to be someone with better reasoning than "The ridiculous rules of englisht hat are extremely inconsistent say so".
10/10/09
The rules of language are only 'ridiculous' and 'extremely inconsistent' if you don't really know what you're talking about. Which, by the looks of things, you do not.
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do i win something now?
10/10/09
if there are multiple exceptions, it is not consistent. We ARE taught that vowel-consonant-vowel means the first vowel is long, but that's not consistently true at all! Right now I see multiple words that show that- Image, video, kotaku(the a), Veritas, something, ridiculous, about. Do I have ot go on? He said, extremely rudely, "ENGLISH SAYS THAT IT IS ENIX BECAUSE THAT IS HOW IT WORKS" when I have just shown a whole bunch of exceptions to that supposed rule.
I before E except after C is the worst example.
And again, english rules for pronunciation? Still no bearing whatsoever! It's a name! It's made up! It's pronounced how they want it to be pronounced! And you cannot say "English says it is pronounced this way, therefore it is" because that simply isn't fact or proper reasoning- it's pronounced however they want it to be, it doesn't follow set rules. As proven right there in that video- they pronounce it Square Eh-nix. SO all this "GOD YOU'RE STUPID ENGLISH LANGUAGE RULES SAY IT IS EENIX THEREFORE IT IS" crap you people are spouting is completely wrong!
10/10/09
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Except for, you know, the existence of Dialetics? If you'd taken the liberty to understand and read what I'm saying, you'd see that I said the 'Eenix/Ehnix' thing can be boiled down to dialetics ('More often than not, if the word begins with the letter E, it's pronounce using that 'Ee' interjection - that 'eh' is a dialectic occurence.', there you go if you can't be bothered to go back and check). You can't say that the rules don't apply just because it's convenient for your side of the arguement White Mage!
10/09/09
So the source of our interest towards them can be found almost completely from elements of the output of the media. Many times, these elements are found almost exclusively within the narrative (which is a subset of the output, and can be thought of in this case simply as a string of events that spans the length of the media).
Ultimately, however, the disposition of a person towards a book or movie is determined not by the output itself, but by how we interpret that output.
The potential magnitude of our disposition towards a narrative is almost always directly proportional to the percentage of elements in the narrative that we feel we can understand and thus empathize with on some level. We can only understand something in terms of the what we already know, so elements of a narrative that we understand are elements that we've translated to our own experiences or to some other part of ourself.
In other words, our maximum enjoyment of a narrative in a book or movie is limited by how frequently we can translate elements in a narrative to elements in our own life (whether or not we consciously make that translation). Lets call these specific narrative elements "relatable."
When a narrative contains contradictions such as non-canonical character behavior, we are forced to strengthen our suspension of disbelief. If we cannot, then much of our connection to the narrative (the set of relatable elements) we be severed. So it is important that narratives be created with careful attention placed on being believable and consistent. But Unlike books, and movies, however, the narrative of a game at any time during gameplay is determined by the user's input an instant before. Then a user generally has the freedom to cause events that may not seem consistent to events that came before it. This is generally a huge issue in video game narratives. In response, game developers have to do the best they can to reduce the frequency and severity of any possible contradictory actions the user can create.
Some games take a more tedious (but arguably less risky) approach of preemptively removing the most noticeable potential contradictions by either restricting a player's actions in some way, or providing canonical explanations via text/video/audio. Using similar in-game cues, the narrative of a game can also be strengthened by providing more "evidence" that it is self-consistent, and complete, and thus more likely to be relatable as discussed above.
Other games try a more simple, but possibly more effective (and arguably very risky) approach of providing a minimal exposition upon which the narrative
will grow such that the elements in the exposition are generally relatable to most users. Trying to obtain minimality of the exposition is key as it would only allow for a comparatively small number of potential user actions that would cause a self-contradicting narrative. Thus a user's narrative throughout the game would likely have a good chance of including a relatively small number of elements that are not relatable do to canonical inconsistency.
Said another way, a game with a very simple yet relatable exposition, would have a better chance at having a relatable narrative, because the exposition is simple enough that user actions will rarely cause any conflict. Also, as user actions will provide most of the narrative elements, the user will generally find them them to be comparable. This approach has the potential to make the game narrative both very personal, and potentially much more engaging.
Ueda's and his team have done an incredible job at realizing the narrative potential of the latter approach.
10/10/09
10/10/09