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Denver, 10:50 PM
Wed Dec 2
63 posts in the last 24 hours
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Original material is licensed under a Creative Commons License permitting non-commercial sharing with attribution.
11/24/09
11/25/09
11/24/09
There is no excuse for charging $150 for a 120GB HDD that is manufactured identically to 120GB hard drives that sell for $50 brand new.
11/24/09
11/24/09
The theory of supply/demand is also based on the assumption of consumers acting logically. This is not the case here. Microsoft isn't relying on informed consumers making intelligent supply/demand decisions. They are relying on uninformed consumers buying a gimped version of their console (Arcade) because of the deceptively low price and then later end up paying MORE than they would have for an elite just to get full functionality. That's why people are angry at Microsoft, because they rely on deception about the actual cost of what consumers think they are getting, and then screw the consumers by preventing competition on the items that provide their console its basic functions (adequate storage, wifi, etc).
11/24/09
like that ever happens.
11/24/09
#speakup
11/24/09
11/24/09
Why not wouldn't be the first time microsoft has been taking to court for using their monopoly to force out competitors.
Analogy time its like only being allowed to use Ford parts on a ford truck with the force of eula and copyrights to back them up. They try to do that ford would be rightfully taken to the cleaners.
11/24/09
So does Chevrolet have the right to stop other companies from making parts and accessories for their cars? Or make them pay a licensing fee for making the parts in the after-market?
Need a new set of rims, or tires? Call Chevy. Need a new set of windshield wipers? Call Chevy.
Guess how expensive the memory cards will be without competition.
I have said this so many times - once you buy your console MICROSOFT DOESN"T OWN IT, YOU DO!
Datel doesn't use any proprietary technology that MS owns a patent on to make these aftermarket memory cards.
What MS is doing is protectionism, and the consumer loses.
11/24/09
11/24/09
And what about competition for memory cards? There are alternatives to Sony's memory cardsfor the PS2. But look at how much memory cards still are, 25 bucks for 8 MB, and you're calling MS's memory cards a rip off?
11/24/09
Now, whether it's legal or not is another question, and I would guess that MS is in the 'legal but ethically reprehensible' category.
This is a bit different than buying a Ford car and only being able to fit it with Ford parts. This is like having your Ford car's computer fitted with a module to make it talk like Kit, then going in for a 100k mile check-up and complaining because your car doesn't talk like Kit anymore because the computer was reset/changed.
Again, I'm not saying its right, but it's what they want to do for their business, and there's nothing wrong with it. You can act just about as protectionist as you want when it comes to computer hardware and software.
The perfect comparison to this is notebook chargers. If you plug a non-Dell-approved charger into a Dell notebook, or an older model Dell charger into a newer Dell notebook, it will give you a notice that the adapter you're using was not made for that model, and it will not charge the battery (but will run on power from the wall). Again, protectionist, but not illegal.
And yes, MS should be sneered at for retroactive protectionism.
11/24/09
None of these analogies quite fits. Car companies and Microsoft have every right to design their equipment however they want even if it means that it won't work with other companies' hardware.
Now the legal issue comes into play because (I am guessing) the update is forced upon consumers. I am not familiar with XBOX but I know that for PS3 if you don't update you can no longer use many features (online gaming etc.) THAT would be like Ford saying "You have to let us update your car so that you can't use those custom wheels anymore or else it won't be able to drive on the highway anymore."
And as for the dell charger argument I don't think they do this to protect against using other chargers. Smaller portable machines use less power and thus the power adapter has a lower voltage and/or current rating. This just isn't enough to simultaneously power and run the larger machines
11/24/09
In the 50's or 60's, the bigger car companies came out with oil drain plugs that required a special wrench that they did not sell to non dealers. The courts ruled that this was an unfair market advantage.
11/24/09
Hardware can be made however you would like to make it, in any industry. It's your product. Proprietary products are not illegal, and without them our economy would be shit, frankly. There is big business in making third party iPod/printer/phone charger, etc. peripherals and cables. Each of those third party companies are at an admitted and blatant risk of the company that produces the actual product (the iPod, printer, phone charger, etc.) altering it via software to render their products useless. This is exactly what Microsoft is doing with the 360.
This is far from the first time this has been done, if you'll recall Apple actually did this with third party video cables in a firmware update for the iPod/iPhone.
That was more recently than Pearl Harbor, if we're keeping score.
#speakup
11/24/09
Ford didn't build the highways.
Thanks for the perfect analogy to demonstrate my point.
#speakup
11/24/09
On a side note I was very interested in buying one of these memory cards and an SD card to go with it as a cheap way of getting more storage space on my 360 while also making it more portable. If the court does rule in Datel's favor I think I still will go that route.
#speakup
11/24/09
As for the overall argument, MS definitely marks up their peripherals far to high. It's rather pathetic the prices they charge. I can get a 1 tb hard drive for less than their 120 gb. I could see some markup because it is of course their branding. Sony has done similar and it was already mentioned with their ps2 memory cards. Sony though has never pushed other products off the field (as far as I know from just looking at the amount of off brand items for playstation).
If people can in fact cheat with these memory cards in some way... then they should fix it through coding their software better. I don't know the extent of what can be done with these though. I do know someone who has perfect gamer scores as soon as they pop in a game though. I really don't see that as a major issue though since it's dead obvious that he cheats.
11/30/09
That's an interesting point. I'm not saying it would win but I think the argument is that if you buy something that as advertised the company should not force you to change it. If you buy a phone from Verizon (I know they don't make the phones but they sell them) should Verizon then be allowed to later make your phone unusable, especially if you are under contract to pay for their service (similar to xbox live)?
In my opinion a company should be able to design their product to be compatible or incompatible with whatever hardware/software/accessories etc. they want but after the product is sold the company should not be able to force consumers to disable these features.
11/30/09
The more accurate analogy is: if you buy a VERIZON phone (let's say they make one) for use on THEIR service, and you pick up a third-party headsett that makes it able to say... listen to other peoples' conversations, should Verizon then be allowed to make your phone unusable?
The answer is, undoubtedly, yes.
Now, are things like cheating on gamerscore as SRS BZNS as listening to other conversations? No. I was only using your analogy to show you a more appropriate way of describing what is happening.
12/01/09
12/01/09
The licensing thing brings up an interesting question. I bet they probably didn't ask MS knowing that it wouldn't happen. Having those memory cards readily available on the market would compete pretty well with their hard drive sales.
11/24/09
If you want your card to be supported, don't blatantly support cheating with expandable cards. Just make normal cards?
11/24/09
By the end of it you're Joe Schmoe electronics who couldn't keep his costs down because of those fees, and are selling a comparably functional product at a similar price to the 800lb gorilla.
11/24/09
Well then I see no reason why they should be puni- wait a minute
11/24/09
As a company, your product may fail for doing so, which may or may not make the company that owns the platform giant douches.
However, the company that develops that technology via reverse-engineering, as a business, has to understand that they could be retroactively f***ed. Consumers need to understand the same thing.
Noone has to like these rules, but they are the rules.
11/24/09
11/24/09
11/24/09
11/24/09
If you then consider Microsoft's enforcing only its cards, we start to run into the printer cartridge issue.
11/24/09
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11/24/09
As with all unlicensed products, it has and will always be at the customers expense and risk when using such products. In essence, when you buy anything unlicensed-"Buyers Beware"
There is no guarantee that it is going to work.
I wonder, can't you get around the problem by finding someone that doesn't update their console? My brother's xbox isn't connected to the internet, so I would just take my memory card over, transfer the data then use a licensed memory card to transfer it back to my HDD. Kind of a pain in the ass, but not as big of a pain in the ass as replaying all of those games again...
11/24/09
Should a company that makes bread need to seek a license from the toaster manufacturer?
11/24/09
11/24/09
So why would you question this?
#speakup
11/24/09
#speakup
11/24/09
11/24/09
I'm not supporting MS, but the legal answer is "go pound sand". The ethical and 'damn the man' answer is "That's f'ing retarded."
Don't like it, don't buy future MS consoles.
11/24/09
Public companies have to release reports on an annual basis called 10-Ks. In those reports, which are made public, is a section that lists dependencies for the company. As in, if X happens, our company could immediately fail. (Side note: You wouldn't believe how many of these, especially in software, list Microsoft's continued existence as a dependency.)
When purchasing third party peripherals, you're purchasing something knowing that it is dependent upon the system to which you're attaching it not being changed to prevent it from working.
If you don't know that, then now you do.
11/24/09
I hate using analogies because they don't prove anything but imagine if you bought a PC game (like I did once with Orange Box) and when you brought it home and tried to install, it doesn't work with your laptop (like mine didn't) You couldn't bring it back to the store to complain or to ask for a refund. It was my fault that I didn't check the system requirements beforehand to see if it would run on my laptop and in the end, it's my fault that I have to to live with a useless $49 paperweight/fancy art piece/box.
I'm not saying I agree with Microsoft, or that I don't feel for those that lost their game saves because I do. Lord knows, how much I dread the "Memory Corrupt" screen but legally speaking, there is nothing wrong with what Microsoft is doing.
#speakup
11/24/09
11/25/09
11/25/09
11/25/09
Also, you'd be right about being able to use a non-updated console to transfer the data back. That would be better than losing all your data.
11/24/09
The innovation does not come from changing the shape or size of USB-B port just to make you buy a $20 cable over a $0.25 one. It's a waste our materials and resources and a way of squatting over your customers and make extra "free" revenue for doing little to no work (I'm looking at Microsoft, Sony, Cell Phone Makers, etc.)
Europe made is a law that all charging devices must use a standardized port: how amazing would that be here in the states? No more worrying about losing "fake" expensive chargers and what not.
GRRR burns my ass.
11/24/09
Seriously if you think that you are being mistreated as a consumer then stop buying their products. Tell other people to stop buying their products and why they should not. Write the company a letter and tell them why you won't buy their products but for God's sake don't expect the government to step in and make more laws just to make you happy and save you a few bucks on a controller. Don't we have more serious issues at hand.
And I freaking hate proprietary plugs, jacks, cables, ect . . . too. They're expensive, inconvenient, and wasteful because we have to get a new wire or set of headphones or whatever to use them instead of using what we already have.
11/24/09
I like that train of thought. Allowing proprietary standards is environmentally wasteful and economically unsound for consumers...but we should allow companies to do it anyway and place the responsibility for forcing multi-billion dollar corporations to act ethically on a small percentage of consumers that care enough to boycott as opposed to the big ol' government.
Mind you, all of this is coming from a conservative who hates big government.
11/24/09
11/24/09
This is disruptive technology and Ken is absolutely right in his statement.
Granted there are cases like "My coffee is hot I need a warning label to tell me this" where things get absurd. But if you think a simple "Just don't buy it then" tactic has any bearing on this industry then you're sadly mistaken.
Statistically speaking one person can only impact 10 people. These were numbers handed to me by my last job mind you I'm not pulling this out of my ass. For every good thing that happens to a customer only 3 people will hear about it. For every bad thing that happens to a person and gets them fired up about it 10 people hear about it and at best 3 people from each of those 10 will relay. You're looking at best 30 people hearing of the cause with a low likelihood of joining said cause.
PS3 doesn't have to much issue with this at least in the console arena as it is fairly all market standards. USB, Wifi, Hard Drive, Memory STicks (for those who have the card readers), Bluetooth, etc. It all works.
Microsoft could do themselves of favor by not resorting to enforced monopoly tactics. They'll certainly lose this case.
11/24/09
11/24/09
In the end the market decides though. People bitch about proprietary stuff but it usually isn't enough to drive them into making a sacrifice and doing without and that's my point. People want what they want but they don't want to make a sacrifice to get it or make a statement and they don't even feel that they have any responsibility.
It's like people who complain that cable television costs too much but they keep paying for it and they don't make the sacrifice of canceling and sending the cable company a clear message. So maybe the price is too high but not high enough, huh?
Oh well. I'm just not going to claim to be a helpless victim every time a company does something lame and say the government should protect me from nonstandard plugs. Their are more nefarious things to protect us from such as outright fraud and deception.
11/24/09
I'd love to think that companies earn themselves some good will from consumers too when they do things right like putting a standard headphone jack on a phone or a standard mini-USB plug on an MP3 player. I always brag on my friends when I get a new gadget or something I love to point out when they do stuff right "Hey, check it out. I can just plug in my old head phones and with this jack I can hook it up to my old stereo!"
11/24/09
11/24/09
Just because I hate big government doesn't mean all forms of government control is negative. There are times when getting regulations is a good thing.
If I hated all forms of government control without thinking whether the effects would be good or bad, I wouldn't be a conservative that hate big government. I would be a mindless sheep.
#speakup
11/24/09
11/24/09
11/24/09
11/24/09
11/24/09
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11/24/09
Same with Pystar, sure some of their tactics are a tad shady, but route for them to set the precedent on 'Mactel' machines.
11/24/09
Datel openly admitted in the briefing that in order to develop their product they had to circumvent Microsoft's copy-prevention and security measures. What Datel calls "Technology Barriers".
That's in violation of both US and International copyright laws. The US Digital Millennium Copyright Act, the European Union's Copyright Directive, and the World IP Organization's Copyright Treaty all make it illegal, for anyone, to circumvent copy-prevention and security measures for DRM.
Again, Datel, in their briefing, clearly states that in order to bring their product to market they needed to do this. Not that attempted to go through legitimate channels in order to bring their product to market (they never once suggested or implied they sought or that Microsoft refused to license to them) but rather that Datel willfully broke copyright law in order to bring an illegal product to the market.
11/24/09
they're not circumventing microsoft's copy prevention and security measures to gain illegal access to copyrighted material. they're not stealing anything from microsoft or any other IP. they're simply removing the artificial barriers that have been placed between their product and microsoft's product. DRM was never intended to stifle development of 3rd party peripherals, it's there to protect IP holders. microsoft is hiding behind their copy protection and using it as a shield against competition which is an illegal, anti-competitive practice.
11/24/09
Datel is not disabling the security measures and copy prevention, but their product DOES allow for others to do so. I am certain that Microsoft would not have taken action had Datel not given "consumers" (read pirates) the ability to load their own programs onto the proprietary consoles. Unlike Sony and Nintendo, who just sort of whine about pirates, Microsoft is taking more forcible action against those who would destroy the console world.
11/24/09
11/24/09
I agree that third party peripherals should be allowed and Microsoft should find a way to prevent unethical usage from those devices as opposed to banning the devices altogether.
However, I have my doubts that Datel is not doing something illegal. They have made innumerable products that people have used to circumvent DRM for piracy, including the 'Freeloader' mentioned in the article. Sometimes, they hide this through side means (including the ability in Action Replay, stating it is for imports, etc), but other times, they pretty much outright do it (their peripherals for the PSP, for example).
Aside from all of this, I have to agree with Logical regarding the kind of company Datel is. As someone who purchased their products in the past, I've seen firsthand just how poor their company is not just with their products, but with their support too. This shouldn't have any impact on the integrity of their claims against Microsoft, but it does make it very difficult for me to believe their arguments.
11/24/09
11/24/09
That isn't the case, however. Datel NEVER sought to license their product with Microsoft. There is no complaint in the brief that Microsoft's created a barrier to licensing because they never sought a license through Microsoft.
Datel didn't just recently, for this product, circumvent Microsoft's copy-prevention and security measures. This was done long before the memory units came to market, in order to create their other products which required that capability in order to connect to the Xbox 360 or it's data storage devices.
#speakup
11/24/09
let's not forget that microsoft isn't taking legal action against datel here, if this were an open'n'shut case for copyright violations don't you think they would?
11/24/09
I believe it came to a head. There may have been some other things involved, a more recent Homebrew convention may have provided Microsoft with a greater understanding of how people were able to circumvent things, but overall I think this was a means to reduce the frustration of legititmate gamers on Xbox LIVE as well as the Xbox LIVE staff involved in policing members.
Unfortunately in the mix are likely legitimate gamers, who have never used their Datel product for any inappropriate use. They are the victims and depending on how this case is resolved, they'll have to determine if they seek a remedy.
#speakup
11/24/09
These are absolutely completely different concepts.
For example:
If Datel had been developing mod chips to allow you to play unauthorized copies of games on an Xbox, that would have been a violation of the DMCA.
By contrast, if Datel had figured out a way to make their own games to play on the Xbox without Microsoft's endorsement or authorization (which would require circumvention of the very same systems), then they would NOT have been in violation of the DMCA.
The difference is that in the first scenario they were removing protection from intellectual property that was not their own - clearly a DMCA violation. In the second scenario they would simply be "ignoring" the copy protection for the purposes of enabling their own IP. Now, if in the process of circumventing the anti-copy system (which is also what keeps legitimate third-party software from running on an Xbox without being "blessed" by Microsoft) they had used proprietary Microsoft code, THEN that would be a copyright violation, but NOT for circumvention of an anti-copy system, but for the use of copyrighted code.
There is already a great body of legal precedent on these counts.
11/24/09
However, I am aware that under US Copyright law it was legal to reverse-engineer for the purpose of creating ones own product so long as the original copyright was not infringed.
However, the language of the DMCA "...criminalizes production and dissemination of technology, devices, or services intended to circumvent measures (commonly known as digital rights management or DRM) that control access to copyrighted works. It also criminalizes the act of circumventing an access control, whether or not there is actual infringement of copyright itself."
Can you cite precedent?
#speakup
11/24/09
The citation you posted from the DMCA does not apply to the type of activity Datel was involved in. The devices and services they provided did not allow the circumvention of DRM. There were no digital rights involved. If you want precedent you can look all the way back to Nintendo vs. Galoob in the case over the Game Genie. Galoob won because Nintendo's argument about infringement was pure bullshit (and they knew it).
You can also look at Nintendo vs. Tengen. Nintendo won the case because Tengen actually used Nintendo's own code to bypass the lockout chip in the NES. But a couple of years later when Color Dreams and a couple of other unlicensed vendors started making Nintendo carts, Nintendo couldn't touch them because they didn't use Nintendo's own code to circumvent the lockout.
Maybe this is going too far back, but you ever wonder why Genesis carts made by EA looked different? EA figured out how to bypass Sega's lockout circuit right out of the gate, and Sega couldn't do squat about it.
Microsoft knows Datel's activities don't violate the DMCA. Think about it - if they were in violation of the DMCA don't you think Microsoft would have sued them a long time ago? The ESA has gone after practically every company doing so from large operations like Lik-Sang to little single person web-shops. And if that activity were even a little gray, legally speaking, don't you think their lawyers would have been smarter than to divulge it?
Back in the early days of Windows, when it was just a GUI for DOS, Microsoft was successfully sued for doing the same sort of thing. They actually put a check in the Windows code to prevent a competitor to DOS called DrDOS from working. It was quite literally something like "If OS=DrDOS then Fail". The mechanism preventing Datel's memory devices from working may be more technologically sophisticated than that, but the logic - by Microsoft's own admission - is exactly the same. Neither thing constitutes DRM by any stretch of the imagination, or more importantly as defined by the DMCA.
To look at it another way, what Datel was doing with the Xbox 360 did not modify or remove the copy protection being used by the Xbox 360. Any disk that you put into a machine during or after the use of the Datel devices in question will still be subject to all the copy checks. They did not use any copyrighted computer code (at least if they did, that is not being alleged here). Put simply, nothing Datel has done according to this article and the legal filing are in violation of the DMCA.
#speakup
11/24/09
11/25/09
#speakup
11/25/09
Under the DMCA, you cannot circumvent the technological barriers in order to create a product that works with both the program and data.
Datel, by reverse engineering or compromising Microsoft's technological barriers built a device which interacts with a Program (the OS) and the Data (Save files, profiles, and downloadable content including games).
There is also a provision in the DMCA that allows a company to reverse engineer if 1) there is no other way to obtain the information and 2) they request permission.
There is another means of obtaining the information in order to create interoperability with the Xbox 360, that's through licensing.
Again, based on the brief, Datel has not suggested that at any point they attempted to license a product for the Xbox 360 OR requested permission to reverse engineer the product.
#speakup
11/25/09
How is it that Open Office can run in Windows and access/manipulate Word and Excel files without violating the DMCA? Winamp runs in Windows and can manage DRM music. I can copy DRM music and movies as many times as I want, but if I don't have the proper authorizations on a given system, the media cannot be accessed. I guess I'm at a disadvantage here, being that my working knowledge of console DLC/downloadable games rights is based on the (apparently far superior) Sony system, whereby the PSN account of the purchaser must be active on the machine for any DRM downloaded content to be used. Are similar circumstances not required on a 360?
It seems to me that if Datel were engaged in any actual DMCA violation, that instead of (or in addition to) simply disabling their cards through an update, MS would have hit them with their own suit, which would have barred the sale of Datel's cards, as well as the financial benefit of restitution for damages.
Regardless, I haven't seen you illustrate how Datel is circumventing MS's DRM. Simply copying data does not mean the data can actually be used by an unauthorized party, and in fact, copying DRM media is perfectly legal for personal backup purposes.
#speakup
11/24/09
they've been getting so much bad PR lately with these crazy amount of banning and RRODs, etc...
i think nintendo and sony should be the ones who make the video games..
11/24/09
11/24/09
11/24/09
#speakup
11/24/09
But hey, congrats to MS for only taking what... 3+ years to make a machine that is still far less reliable than their competitors'.
11/24/09
11/24/09
"Skyrocketing..." [snicker] Right. Slims have been on the market less than three months. My mid-2008 fat is on for 6-8 hours on weekdays (much more on weekends) and chuggin' along just fine, thanks, and my Dec-2007 soft-BC hasn't had any issues either. It's really mainly the ~3yr old *launch* models that are now having some YLOD problems.
BTW, diode problems won't cause YLOD.
#speakup
11/24/09
You can argue that it's in order to protect people from putting custom savegame data. Yes, that's true. Once you forget that USB adapters to plug your Official 360 memory card for PC are readily available. Hell, i've used them to put a Pro Evo Option File on. So banning this just means "hackers" can opt for an alternative.
Therefore, i feel there's very little justification for this move, and I for one completely agree with what Datel are doing. It's not about security, its about monopoly.
11/24/09
More than likely that USB adapter you speak of is a Datel product as well, as Datel is the only manufacturer of one that I'm aware of.
Datel illegally circumvented Microsoft technology in violation of US and International law. It did not seek to sell licensed accessories from Microsoft. The Xbox 360 is a closed system, it is not a PC. Therefore, Microsoft is free to regulate what hardware and software is used with the device; just as Sony, Nintendo, Apple and any other manufacturer of a closed system is allowed and has been allowed to do so.
A PC is an open system. A system built on components that anyone can manufacturer any one of those components including the OS, of which Microsoft is a manufacturer.
Microsoft is not at liberty to define what hardware and what software is used on an open system. The software developer either develops for Windows or they develop for another operating system. The hardware developer either develops something compatible to the standards that exist on that system as well as software to run on a given OS, or they don't.
In a closed system, the manufacturer of the device defines what hardware and software are permitted and which ones are not. In this respect they have control, not a monopoly.
Had Datel pursued an attempt to license a product with Microsoft and Microsoft refused, they might have a case.
As it stands, in the briefing, Datel has not made the case that Microsoft's refusal to license to them caused them to break US and International law in order to bring a product to market. Instead, what Datel is arguing is that they willfully broke US and International law in order to bring a product to market, and when Microsoft prevented their illegal product from working they allege Microsoft did so within a monopoly.
I think, unfortunately for this lawfirm, they saw the argument Datel made and Microsoft, heard the word monopoly and saw $$ (dollar signs). Unfortunately, they forgot about a little thing called the DMCA.
11/24/09
Somehow, Sony has managed to allow the use of any SD or CF card (on models with readers), and any USB-capable storage media to store game saves, without any problems regarding hacking or cheating that I'm aware of (aside from a single CoD4 hack that was promptly patched). Perhaps MS should focus more on the security of their code than on anticompetitive business practices.
11/25/09
If I was a lawyer, working for Microsoft, that would be one of my counter arguments.
The problem with using DMCA is everyone will hate you, and I don't think Microsoft's desire was to stiffle such "innovation". Inarguably, Datel has had products on the market which could be used equally for both good and nefarious uses. Luckily for Microsoft the cost for these products were high enough that the average gamer wouldn't bother with them (granted less than $200 isn't a huge amount). In May, when Datel released their memory units they provided a cheap, easy means of gamer score cheating, achievement cheating, as well as theft of DLC content including games.
It no longer cost $150 to do this, it now cost $30. So in a very short period of time the amount of cheating escalated.
I want cheaper memory/storage devices. Don't assume I don't. I want Microsoft to lower their prices. Don't assume I don't. There is a legitimate way to do business and there is an illegitimate what to do it and Datel, in my opinion, did not pursue the legitimate way to do it.
Based on my reading of the DMCA and based on persons more familiar with Copyright law and the DMCA, Microsoft may have a clear and legitimate defense and claim against Datel.
To cite pre-DMCA case law as precedent as others have done is tricky, because this very issue in whole has NEVER been tried. So this case will set precedent if Microsoft pursues using an allegation that Datel violated the DMCA.
#speakup
11/25/09
#speakup
11/24/09
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11/24/09
There are IP issues and Competition/Antitrust issues that will have to be decided should things ever get as far as trial.
11/24/09
11/24/09
There are a lot of links there that MS are making.
11/24/09
11/24/09
#speakup
11/24/09
11/24/09
The thing didn't even encourage piracy since you couldn't use it to play pirated versions. Freeloader owners still bought legit copies.
I'm sure Nintendo tried to pass it off as "protecting the customer" or some such nonsense, but all they achieved was pissing off the type of gamers who spend way more than average on video games, and pushing a good portion of them towards the Homebrew channel - which, unlike the FL, does allow piracy.
Without the Freeloader, I couldn't have played the uncensored version of NMH. If they censor NMH2 in Europe, maybe I should just wait and hope for a PS3/360 version in a couple of years...
11/24/09
11/24/09
11/24/09
It's a little akin to Nintendo moving to block the use of R4 cartridges. They identified a peripheral device that could hurt the integrity of their system and/or their interests and moved to block it. Whether this is good for Microsofts image or not however, is still up for debate.
11/24/09
because then you are interfering with others game time.
Why don't MS go ape shit when modders turn their 360's into a huge pair of tits?
11/24/09
That doesn't make it right (or wrong). This just makes me like MS even less, they're prices are already reminding me of Nintendo in the N64 era. Don't get me started on tehir DLC prices!
11/24/09
With regards to your post, you're right in that regard; you are free to do with your xbox as you please- including downloading the latest patch/update. It's you choice whether you want to take it online to do so. But when you do, you accept all responsibility in making that choice (including allowing Microsoft the access to change your system). Hence, why I think Datel will have a difficult time winning this particular case.
#speakup
11/24/09
#speakup
11/24/09
11/24/09
They sued Jaleco over the Game Genie back in the day because they felt it took all the fun out of their games if players could just wish up infinite health or lives.
These days it's more about piracy prevention measures and the like (the aforementioned R4), but they've done some weird things with lawsuits in the past, for sure.
11/24/09
11/24/09
Other than thatm the general consensus is that when you buy something, you own it, and thus can do whatever you want with it.
According to US law, what Microsoft did is, in fact, illegal, since the update specifically targets Datel's product... so they activate Shield Type 8 and negate Microsoft's spell card.
11/24/09
11/24/09
Yeah you definitely can't get banned for a case mod. But it's kind of frowned upon, and doing so you have to bypass the warranty sticker. I've had my 360 since release so it's obviously out of warranty, so I bought a neat casemod for it.
Who here has seen the inside of a 360? The thing is so damn insulated it's no wonder half of them went wrong :/ It's wrapped in two layers of plastic and a sheet of metal for gods sake! What were they thinking!
Since I've installed my casemod my 360 runs even faster now and doesn't slow down after being on for 6+ hours at a time now. Man I've had it for years and it's not even crashed. Not that anyone would believe me on that :P
11/24/09
If the end user violates the EULA/TOS then Microsoft has, through it's remedies in the EULA/TOS, to withdraw your license to use certain or all aspects of the software.
Regardless, Datel violated US and International copyright law when they willfully circumvented copy-prevention and security measures Microsoft had in place. Not only did they willfully do it, but they openly admitted to doing it even going so far as to express how much time and money was invested into illegally circumventing those measures.
Yet they NEVER once mentioned where they approached Microsoft about licensing data storage products, where Microsoft required a significant portion of their profit to do so, or that Microsoft ever REFUSED to allow them to officially license any data storage products.
Hmmm...so what Datel is contending, and what you support is that they should be allowed to break the law in order to sell their product, create a product which is knowingly used for and is required in order to hack or cheat on the Xbox LIVE service, a product that allows it's nefarious users to damage the quality of service obtained through Xbox LIVE for other users, and while other legitimate 3rd-party accessory manufacturers license their products, they do not have to.
BULL SHIT!
11/24/09
11/24/09
Right after the video game crash, I think Nintendo was fiercely worried about the possibility of a software flood (which happened on the Atari), so they created a lock-out chip and sued Galoob for what they think of circumventing it.
This may not be completely accurate, but I believe that was the case.
11/24/09
#speakup
11/24/09
#speakup
11/24/09
Why did I say Jaleco? Blah.
They sued for copyright infringement, making the argument in court that they were creating derivative works of Nintendo games, but that was more the legal argument than the reason behind the lawsuit in the first place.
Kinda like how they went after Blockbuster for copyright infringement over the manuals because they couldn't get them for renting games.
The fear was that if people were able to cheat their way through games, the satisfaction level would drop, and now you've got a different problem entirely from just 'bad games.'
They had other measures in place to prevent a software flood. The licensee program, in those days, limited companies to no more than five Nintendo games per year.
The lockout chip was also targeted at preventing a software flood, but mostly through disincentivizing companies from setting up a production chain outside of Nintendo's control, as Tengen eventually tried to.
#speakup
11/24/09
11/24/09
11/24/09
11/24/09
#speakup
11/27/09
Yes, you can play on PC, if you have good enough PC, your card is supported, but won't even be able to use your old save.
11/27/09
Well, but as long as someone doesn't care about online play, DLCs, online upgrades, movies, news, achievements/trophies, communication with other players, and basically doesn't mind being in last gen(even with HD graphics)... X360 is still cheaper alternative to PS3.
I bought my X360 mostly for Tales of Vesperia, which now might come for PS3 with more content, as it's not so exclusive anymore(I don't know if it's already announced for non-JP markets).
11/27/09
I thought you were referring to the "monopoly" Microsoft has over gaming that Datel brings up in their suit, my bad.
In response to your problem, I feel for you- that must suck horribly. One solution or work around I posted elsewhere in this thread is to try to find someone (perhaps one of your friends?) that has a 360 not yet updated or connected to the internet. My brother, for example, doesn't connect to the internet. Bring your card over, transfer it to the HDD and then use an authorized memory card to transfer it back to yours.
A pain in the ass, I know but it's better than losing all of your saves :(
Good luck!
11/27/09
Let me know how everything works out!
11/28/09