It is a shame that Guild Wars has apparently decided that their use of instancing was the problem. I liked that most of the game could be played independently.
What I had a problem with was how they split the baby between enabling solo-play and pushing group-play. While they made the opening chapters of the game enjoyably solo-able and continued to make that theoretically possible, they did the balance and difficulty progression such that exploring the world solo became a puzzle-like headache of carefully deciphering the level design for possible solo solutions. That wasn't particularly fun.
@sixfootgnome: I'd have to agree as I tried to solo GW myself. Starts off fine, quite fun actually, then becomes frustratingly difficult to do.
Though I bought GW and Factions, I never did pick up the 3rd expansion so I didn't get to try heroes. While I'm not fond of henchmen to begin with, I really feel heroes should have been rolled out as a normal feature and not locked to acquiring via an expansion pack.
The FAQ on their site claims that GW2 will be solo-able though, so here's hoping.
@Rirath: Heroes are quite nice. You can also get them in Eye of the North, which is accessible at level 10 if you have it; that essentially gives you a monk, mesmer, and elementalist to run with in Prophecies--and the mesmer is grown up Gwen, the little girl from the tutorial.
Henchmen got an AI update and skill set change recently. It has massively improved their performance. The only missions where it's still tricky to play with them are the handful that requires splitting the party into 2 groups. (Heroes can be flagged individually which means You + 3 heroes can be 1 group and "everyone else" another.)
As to AJ's original article? I totally agree. I DREAD the new non-instanced approach the game is taking. I like how in the game now I can decide I'm going to go kill X boss and hope his rare item drops, or capture his elite skill and I just go into the zone and I have it all to myself. No killstealing, griefing, or camping EVER happens and I like it that way!
@Alessar: Guess you hadn't read the other interviews where kill stealing wouldn't a problem, if someone tries to do, that they still get rewarded... but not with the phat loot you got for actually doing something the bugger.
@Floreum: Honestly I believe that gold farmers will find a way to spoil things no matter what measures are in place. Here's a random example: in final fantasy xi, fishing was a popular past time. Due to rampant botting, aggressive monsters patrolling the coast line were added in, making it harder for real people to fish and eliminating certain camp grounds regular experience parties would have used in the past.
I played GW constantly since launch until probably the last 6 or 8 months. The more I hear about GW2 the less I am interested in the game.
What drew me to the game was that it wasn't like other MMOs I tried - the instancing is what I valued the most in the game play experience - followed closely by building skill bars that were innovated and allowed for success.
The world doesn't need yet another WoW knock off - I think the reason no other MMOs have really been successful is that they all try to copy WoW. They make tweak a craft system, have a different setting, different art styles etc - but the core structure are the same. GW was different at its core and while that didn't knock WoW out of #1 it made for a #2 place game with tons of sustained audience - well above what ever the #3 place flavor of the month was.
To sum it up - every time I read "More like other MMOs" it makes me less likely to buy GW2
It is weird that they do that.
With GW they had somewhat of "niche" market all for themselves and now they are going to compete with all the other existing MMO.
Jesus Christ. Am I the only one that has been completely turned off by this?
I played GW because I've heard it was like a spiritual successor to D2. It wasn't really, which in the end made me glad, but it retained the main aspect that made D2 fun (at least for me): Limited number of people around me.
What bored the living hell out of myself when playing MMOs was that my screen was cluttered full of people I simply did not give two feces about, and did not affect my life in any shape or form. GW and D2 alike did not have this problem because of their instancing. With Guild Wars, I could solo easily, just like in D2. I really hope I can keep doing this at GW2... Because the reason I played GW in the first place was because it wasn't like the others, in the first place, what the hell.
I have a problem with people thinking that GW's art style was realistic, it was stylized very heavily. WoW is cartoony, that's the only reason GW seems realistic.
That aside, I absolutely LOVE the art and the game and will be picking this up day one.
@Bradley Litzenberger: I played in the beta long before I had any interest in or was even following WoW and I also saw them as realistic given the time at which it came out
I really liked the instanced setup for GW. Then again, I'm not a big group player and I played GW solo most of the time. I basically played the storyline quests solo and then grouped with other people when the mood struck. I just hope they maintain the no monthly fee structure. I just don't play any online game enough to justify a monthly fee. I think that's why I got into it in the first place, I didn't feel guilty for not playing. Just had fun and never worried about it. But I ended up buying all 3 expansions.
@subnet6: That game originally had me at no monthly fees and the fact that strategy is required to do well. But I had a hell of a hard time finding a good group to do missions with. THAT needs fixing.
@Tye-The-Czar: Really? That's one problem I never had. Maybe I was lucky, but I was approached by a friendly Guild early on that had lots of variety in its membership. I pretty much had people offering to group whenever I got on, although, like I said, I generally enjoyed playing the game solo.
For me, GW mostly distinguishes itself by keeping the emphasis on what a player can do in an instance with only 8 of their skills. Entire wikis have spawned around the topic of skillbar/attribute configuration in GW.
Unlike most MMO's, the challenge in GW has little to do with reaching the modest level cap of 20 or acquiring the game's best performing equipment. Rare armour and weapons acquired in GW through typical MMO-style grind may look prettier, but their stats make them no better than the gear available from most traders.
I hope that GW2's with it's reduced instancing keeps the focus on skill usage and stat configuration rather than grind.
Hmmm I smell a WoWkiller. Let's hope that WoW2 doesn't make a surprise appearance sometime around GW2's release.
I wouldnt hold it against Activision to do something like this, or at least announcing WoW2 around GW2's release. They'll have been working on it for 4-5 years by then... Its a risk that ArenaNet should definitely factor into whatever plans they have for the GW2 launch.
I for one am super psyched for this game. GW1 was the only MMO I've ever "gotten into", and Im looking forward to the next one. I think it's because it didnt make me feel I was [i]required[/i] to put time into it, but rewarded me when I did put time into it.
I hope GW2 gives me the same feeling. If it does, I'll probably play it!
@infinitezero: How could they not make WoW2? WoW is a money printing machine, you think theyre going to pass up on a building an even bigger, better money printing machine? Of course not!
Its in development now, it has to be. Activision Blizzard don't really have a choice about it, a WoW2 is inevitable.
@TheOmnitron: or they could constantly put out expansion for the first one forever and never make a wow2. Cause the rate they are going with expansions, if a new player wants to get in WoW they have to shove alot of money to get started and that doesnt even include the monthly fees.
Guild Wars' greatest achievement was that it was multiple games that, after the initial game purchase were free to play for years to come.
You could play single player missions with a team of AI players to help. You could play multi player missions with a mix of AI and live, or all live, players. You could play single player team PvP battles with AI players vs. another single player with AI players. You could play multi player team PvP battles. Finally, you could play large multi player team PvP guild battles.
From an instanced world that you and your group roamed freely in, to large scale Guild Battles, this game has it all, to me. I only hope that the next game will be as well done as this one (which I have - and continue - to play since the first beta tests for the game).
I'm just glad that they're making the world persistent. If they can keep the same storytelling, awesome combat, and the most balanced PVP I've played of any MMO, then I'm down for a sequel.
@rathorial: I'm pretty hyped for it myself. Making the world persistent will make it easier to convince my friends to play. Oh and the whole no monthly fee thing.
@LilSpitfire: WoW doesn't have branching narrative though. They have linear quests that update state based on how far along you are.
So this is going one step further than that. The choices you make will change the state of those zones, not just how deep into the quest chain you are.
In a lot of ways GW2 looks like it's going to be more similar to SWTOR than WoW. But no sub fee, and lots of carried over Guild Wars goodness.
@EolirinX: Isn't WOW doing a branching narrative with this upcoming expansion though? Or maybe I've been reading incorrectly into how they are re-imaging the old zones.
Either way if Guild Wars pulls it off I hope WOW follows suit.
I like it when MMOs bounce good ideas off each other. Strengthens the overall genre.
@LilSpitfire: Absolutely. Cross pollination is important. :)
As to the new expansion, I'm not sure if they are or not, but I don't remember hearing anything about it specifically. They might be doing some stuff with the new quests for the Worgen and Goblin starting zones, but I don't think they mentioned adding additional phasing to the rest of the game.
In any event, until we see those quests or someone points me at a more detailed interview with Blizzard, all we have to work on is what's in the game now, which has zero branching, and what's in the GW2 article, which is pretty impressive: not only are your choices in game going to reflect on future quest lines, the quest lines you get in the first place are going to be based on decisions that you make at the start of the game about your character's history. This is the relevant paragraph from the interview:
"When a player creates a character in Guild Wars 2, they will be able to answer many questions about their personal character history. These answers will help determine your personal story in the game. As many fans have theorized, one of the first things you choose is a 'subdivision' of your race, which provides a more personal feel to your character's history. For the humans, that means their ancestry--Elonan, Krytan, Ascalonian and Canthan--and also their social status as gentry or commoners of the city of Divinity's Reach. For charr, it primarily means their legion, whether Blood, Ash, or Iron. The asura choose between the three most respected colleges of learning; Synergetics, Dynamics, and Statics. The sylvari follow the path of their seasonal cycle, or the time of day in which they awakened, being Dawn, Day, Twilight or Night. The norn choose their personal totem, and may choose to walk in the path of bear, snow leopard, raven or wolf. From these and other initial determinations, a wealth of personalized storylines develop, so that each player in the game experiences a story that is individually tailored to their character."
@ggodo, the man from R.O.A.C.H.: There will be two types of PVP, one of which resembles GvG, and possibly arena, where you go to a specific spot, and it auto-levels/provides skills/equipment so that everyone is on an completely equal playing field.
Additionally, there will be a server vs server pvp area, which is completely separate from the pve zones, where you'll have a more "world pvp" sort of experience, where there'll be objectives that you can randomly try to help out with, and you can enter and leave the pvp at any point. There will be no pvp in the pve zones.
@EolirinX: ok, good, I like the dedicated PvP not being entirely dependant on what random loot you have drop for you. Really don't like that aspect of WoW
@ggodo, the man from R.O.A.C.H.: Yeah, no good structured pvp system should be based on randomized loot or differences in character level, something that even Blizzard finally wised up to when they started doing structured arena tournaments and providing equipment to the characters in them.
@ggodo, the man from R.O.A.C.H.: I think they even give you a max level character for it, actually. But it's only for tournaments, and they're not automated like they are in GW... so there are more restrictions on how it works.
But yeah, the PVP character thing was pretty cool. GW2 does away with that as I recall; you just have the pve characters, but it will still auto-level your guys and provide skills/equipment when you go to the structured pvp areas. Hopefully they give us enough slots, or let us change our primary profession, so that we don't need to worry about having to delete our characters if we need a different primary profession for pvp.
@EolirinX: I would love that. the problem will be if race affects stats, that's one more varible into te structured PvP that I didn't think of until you talked about having enough slots. We'd need near unlimited slots, especially compared to GW1
@ggodo, the man from R.O.A.C.H.: I think it's more about secondary powers than stats (norn becoming a totem animal for instance), and they've flat out said that the histories don't count in terms of which powers you can use, so it's one per race.
So if they let us respec primary professions, we only need 5 characters. If they don't, you'd need at most 5 x the number of primary professions slots, assuming those secondary powers mattered at all to pvp (which they may not). Making those secondary abilities PvE only would easily remove that issue.
@EolirinX: True, very true. I'd be fine with that. I just really want to be able to play one class in PvE and a Mesmer in PvP. because Mesmers are the best thing to come out of Guild Wars. An entire class devoted to messing with everyone else?
How could that not be awesome?
@ggodo, the man from R.O.A.C.H.: We don't know what the professions will be yet, so Mesmer may not make it exactly in tact. I'm sure there'll be some sort of interrupt/hex class though. It'd be weird if there wasn't. It's such an important part of team play. It may not be as limited to that as the original mesmer was though.
@EolirinX: Yea, I have a PvE Mesmer on GW and it's really not the same. Too many enemies for it to be really effective or fun. I don't want to have to level a Mesmer so my team will be fleshed out.
Wasn't there just an article where a WoW developer suggested that other MMORPG's should NOT copy it's model to succeed? I'm intrigued by the zombie MMO in dev. That will be a buy for sure for me.
@whitjm5: If they can capture the combat of L4D with the story of World War Z I will be ecstatic. I've been waiting for a survival-type zombie MMO now.
I liked the idea of the original Guild Wars, but I just couldn't get into it. I bought it over steam, but the world itself just seemed... Empty.
It was satisfying at first, to see a beautiful, sprawling landscape without people running around, but after the first hour or two, it was eerie. I missed having random passerby's ask me questions, or people running in my direction for help with a mob that was destroying them. Hell, I even missed the level 80 Blood Elf Paladins attacking me out of nowhere. I also didn't much care for the menu style, although that might seem like nitpicking; but it seemed like the entire game was one of those crappy F2P jRPG MMO's. I don't know, maybe I need to give it another shot when I rebuild my computer.
Wasn't the whole reason why people loved Guild Wars in the first place BECAUSE it was nothing like other MMOs?
Kinda seems to be defeating the purpose here...
Ultimately they'll probably be able to attract a good chunk of people from the other MMO markets but I imagine there will be a large community of people who refuse to move passed Guild Wars 1.
@KnightsofRound: A lot of people complained about the lack of persistent spaces, and the game is undeniably empty feeling because of it.
If they keep the core aspects of what made GW unique, like the skill system, the way progression is light and easily adjustable, the anti-grind mentality, etc, then the addition of more traditional zones won't negatively impact the bits that people really loved, while removing one of the biggest downsides to the design; the lack of other people.
My big problem with Guild Wars was that you couldn't walk around the world and see other people. One thing I like about every other MMO is that you can randomly run into and help or be helped by others.
12/09/09
What I had a problem with was how they split the baby between enabling solo-play and pushing group-play. While they made the opening chapters of the game enjoyably solo-able and continued to make that theoretically possible, they did the balance and difficulty progression such that exploring the world solo became a puzzle-like headache of carefully deciphering the level design for possible solo solutions. That wasn't particularly fun.
12/09/09
Though I bought GW and Factions, I never did pick up the 3rd expansion so I didn't get to try heroes. While I'm not fond of henchmen to begin with, I really feel heroes should have been rolled out as a normal feature and not locked to acquiring via an expansion pack.
The FAQ on their site claims that GW2 will be solo-able though, so here's hoping.
12/10/09
Henchmen got an AI update and skill set change recently. It has massively improved their performance. The only missions where it's still tricky to play with them are the handful that requires splitting the party into 2 groups. (Heroes can be flagged individually which means You + 3 heroes can be 1 group and "everyone else" another.)
As to AJ's original article? I totally agree. I DREAD the new non-instanced approach the game is taking. I like how in the game now I can decide I'm going to go kill X boss and hope his rare item drops, or capture his elite skill and I just go into the zone and I have it all to myself. No killstealing, griefing, or camping EVER happens and I like it that way!
12/10/09
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12/09/09
What drew me to the game was that it wasn't like other MMOs I tried - the instancing is what I valued the most in the game play experience - followed closely by building skill bars that were innovated and allowed for success.
The world doesn't need yet another WoW knock off - I think the reason no other MMOs have really been successful is that they all try to copy WoW. They make tweak a craft system, have a different setting, different art styles etc - but the core structure are the same. GW was different at its core and while that didn't knock WoW out of #1 it made for a #2 place game with tons of sustained audience - well above what ever the #3 place flavor of the month was.
To sum it up - every time I read "More like other MMOs" it makes me less likely to buy GW2
12/09/09
'Other MMOs' doesn't always mean 'World of Warcraft'.
12/09/09
With GW they had somewhat of "niche" market all for themselves and now they are going to compete with all the other existing MMO.
Hmm doesn't sound like a good move to me.
12/09/09
I played GW because I've heard it was like a spiritual successor to D2. It wasn't really, which in the end made me glad, but it retained the main aspect that made D2 fun (at least for me): Limited number of people around me.
What bored the living hell out of myself when playing MMOs was that my screen was cluttered full of people I simply did not give two feces about, and did not affect my life in any shape or form. GW and D2 alike did not have this problem because of their instancing. With Guild Wars, I could solo easily, just like in D2. I really hope I can keep doing this at GW2... Because the reason I played GW in the first place was because it wasn't like the others, in the first place, what the hell.
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That aside, I absolutely LOVE the art and the game and will be picking this up day one.
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Unlike most MMO's, the challenge in GW has little to do with reaching the modest level cap of 20 or acquiring the game's best performing equipment. Rare armour and weapons acquired in GW through typical MMO-style grind may look prettier, but their stats make them no better than the gear available from most traders.
I hope that GW2's with it's reduced instancing keeps the focus on skill usage and stat configuration rather than grind.
12/08/09
I wouldnt hold it against Activision to do something like this, or at least announcing WoW2 around GW2's release. They'll have been working on it for 4-5 years by then... Its a risk that ArenaNet should definitely factor into whatever plans they have for the GW2 launch.
I for one am super psyched for this game. GW1 was the only MMO I've ever "gotten into", and Im looking forward to the next one. I think it's because it didnt make me feel I was [i]required[/i] to put time into it, but rewarded me when I did put time into it.
I hope GW2 gives me the same feeling. If it does, I'll probably play it!
12/08/09
12/09/09
Its in development now, it has to be. Activision Blizzard don't really have a choice about it, a WoW2 is inevitable.
12/09/09
12/08/09
You could play single player missions with a team of AI players to help. You could play multi player missions with a mix of AI and live, or all live, players. You could play single player team PvP battles with AI players vs. another single player with AI players. You could play multi player team PvP battles. Finally, you could play large multi player team PvP guild battles.
From an instanced world that you and your group roamed freely in, to large scale Guild Battles, this game has it all, to me. I only hope that the next game will be as well done as this one (which I have - and continue - to play since the first beta tests for the game).
12/08/09
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12/09/09
WoW is fun, but the game just gets too repetative in the end-game, and PVP is underbalanced.
The no monthly fee should help a great deal too. Hoping they keep the variety of skills they had in the last game for the sequel too.
12/08/09
You know this could actually rock pretty hard. I didn't care too much for the shallow story of the first iteration but the combat was great.
Let's see how they fleshed out everything this round.
12/08/09
So this is going one step further than that. The choices you make will change the state of those zones, not just how deep into the quest chain you are.
In a lot of ways GW2 looks like it's going to be more similar to SWTOR than WoW. But no sub fee, and lots of carried over Guild Wars goodness.
12/08/09
Either way if Guild Wars pulls it off I hope WOW follows suit.
I like it when MMOs bounce good ideas off each other. Strengthens the overall genre.
12/08/09
As to the new expansion, I'm not sure if they are or not, but I don't remember hearing anything about it specifically. They might be doing some stuff with the new quests for the Worgen and Goblin starting zones, but I don't think they mentioned adding additional phasing to the rest of the game.
In any event, until we see those quests or someone points me at a more detailed interview with Blizzard, all we have to work on is what's in the game now, which has zero branching, and what's in the GW2 article, which is pretty impressive: not only are your choices in game going to reflect on future quest lines, the quest lines you get in the first place are going to be based on decisions that you make at the start of the game about your character's history. This is the relevant paragraph from the interview:
"When a player creates a character in Guild Wars 2, they will be able to answer many questions about their personal character history. These answers will help determine your personal story in the game. As many fans have theorized, one of the first things you choose is a 'subdivision' of your race, which provides a more personal feel to your character's history. For the humans, that means their ancestry--Elonan, Krytan, Ascalonian and Canthan--and also their social status as gentry or commoners of the city of Divinity's Reach. For charr, it primarily means their legion, whether Blood, Ash, or Iron. The asura choose between the three most respected colleges of learning; Synergetics, Dynamics, and Statics. The sylvari follow the path of their seasonal cycle, or the time of day in which they awakened, being Dawn, Day, Twilight or Night. The norn choose their personal totem, and may choose to walk in the path of bear, snow leopard, raven or wolf. From these and other initial determinations, a wealth of personalized storylines develop, so that each player in the game experiences a story that is individually tailored to their character."
12/08/09
I can see GW2 taking a rightful place among MMOs if they can pull it off.
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Are we sure that's not WoW 2? :p
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Additionally, there will be a server vs server pvp area, which is completely separate from the pve zones, where you'll have a more "world pvp" sort of experience, where there'll be objectives that you can randomly try to help out with, and you can enter and leave the pvp at any point. There will be no pvp in the pve zones.
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I thought it was nice to be able to have a slot open for just PvP and swap it for whatever class I needed for my team.
12/08/09
But yeah, the PVP character thing was pretty cool. GW2 does away with that as I recall; you just have the pve characters, but it will still auto-level your guys and provide skills/equipment when you go to the structured pvp areas. Hopefully they give us enough slots, or let us change our primary profession, so that we don't need to worry about having to delete our characters if we need a different primary profession for pvp.
12/09/09
12/09/09
So if they let us respec primary professions, we only need 5 characters. If they don't, you'd need at most 5 x the number of primary professions slots, assuming those secondary powers mattered at all to pvp (which they may not). Making those secondary abilities PvE only would easily remove that issue.
12/09/09
How could that not be awesome?
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It was satisfying at first, to see a beautiful, sprawling landscape without people running around, but after the first hour or two, it was eerie. I missed having random passerby's ask me questions, or people running in my direction for help with a mob that was destroying them. Hell, I even missed the level 80 Blood Elf Paladins attacking me out of nowhere. I also didn't much care for the menu style, although that might seem like nitpicking; but it seemed like the entire game was one of those crappy F2P jRPG MMO's. I don't know, maybe I need to give it another shot when I rebuild my computer.
12/08/09
Kinda seems to be defeating the purpose here...
Ultimately they'll probably be able to attract a good chunk of people from the other MMO markets but I imagine there will be a large community of people who refuse to move passed Guild Wars 1.
12/08/09
[wiki.guildwars.com]
12/08/09
If they keep the core aspects of what made GW unique, like the skill system, the way progression is light and easily adjustable, the anti-grind mentality, etc, then the addition of more traditional zones won't negatively impact the bits that people really loved, while removing one of the biggest downsides to the design; the lack of other people.
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