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Denver, 5:59 AM
Tue Dec 22
57 posts in the last 24 hours
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12/16/09
I mean what gets me more excited for a new game coming out then just about anything is knowing that "Dev Studio X" is making the game, because I know those guys in particular make good stuff. This of course extends to individuals as well, as you're basically just narrowing it down even further as to who's actually responsible for making a great game great.
And don't forget that Kojima doesn't need to make Metal Gear anymore. How much hype would a new non MGS Kojima production get? Just his supervisory role on the new Castlevania made more headlines then the actual studio's name did. But it's not just huge names like him or someone like Miyamoto either, I mean one of teh reason I was really excited for Uncharted 2 was Amy Henning.
It wasn't a name I ever really saw tossed around at all, but when I beat the first game and saw her prominently listed in the credits right away I knew "Ok, this girl right here must have been a big part of why this game is so amazing!" Why? Because I knew of her as being one of the big brains behind most of the Legacy of Kain games. Nowadays, between the two franchises mentioned, I'm pretty much sold on any project this woman is holding the reins too.
Credits are important. It helps us identify these creators whose works we identify with, that we enjoy. To me game selection is more like picking out a book to read then a movie to go see, it's a lot more invested time at stake. Most people are more inclined to rad something when they're familiar with an authors past works after all, there's value in your past work and in your name. So to that end I think proper credits listing is very important. Someone may only be a junior assistant lighting tech now, but tomorrow he might be this era's Miyamoto. If that's the case then we should all want to know exactly what he's up to.
The game development community should just start a guild or something. Do whatever Hollywood does for the credits roll. Say what you will of Hollywood, but as I understand it the end credits are ALWAYS complete and accurate and furthermore are simply not something you fuck with. Ever.
12/16/09
Now I do agree that people should be properly credited for your work but I disagree with your reasoning.
12/16/09
Why cause you don't like the one name I dropped? To be honest I don't really know much about Cliff myself, he's not one of "my" attention catchers, but he's a well known figure and for the sake of my argument reaching as broad an appeal as possible it's important to use names that people would recognize.
I mean I could have mentioned my buddy Terrada Takanobu instead, but I doubt his name would have grabbed any attention. You wouldn't have made this post for example :)
12/17/09
I doubt that most of us could name any. From that point crediting is overrated.
But in the end I don't see the point of not giving people a spot in the end credits. I mean if nobody really cares anyways and the credits being already really long, just give them a mention there.
12/17/09
12/16/09
Well, except maybe movies - and that's only a maybe (the same sort of thing goes on, but at least 'everyone knows' what really happened, it is that incestuous). Plus, the movies have a far greater proportion of freelancers and stronger unions. Straight employees get about the same as everyone else.
Employment is employment and that's the way it works.
12/16/09
Quite frankly, it's inexcusable. Give credit where credit is due. If they worked on it for a significant period of time (let's say a month), they should get credit. They've been paid anyway and it costs nothing to add more names to credit lists. There's no excuse. Zero.
Anyone who supports the idea of not giving credit to someone who works on a video game deserves a kick in the head. You would probably be disgusted if this happened in music, movies, fine art, or literature (and that includes comic books). Working in the entertainment sector is difficult with often little financial compensation. I'll say it again for emphasis: if you support people being cut out of the credits of something they put work into, you deserve a kick in the head. Preferably with steel-toes.
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12/16/09
As someone striving to get into the industry, I'd hate for this to happen to me so hopefully by the time I'm entering the industry, it's matured and this problem doesn't exist anymore.
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The real issue here is receiving credit for what you worked on. Many in the industry are creative and hard-working people that feel they "left their mark" on a particular game they worked on and want to receive recognition for it, regardless of their motives. Who are you to say "it's just an ego thing" and "they shouldn't worry about it." Clearly, it's much easier for you to say in your mostly removed and outside perspective. Again, it's not about YOU, it's about the people who feel this way. Thinking "Well, I don't feel this way so no one else should either" is completely misguided and unfair.
**Also, please do not bash unions because you think everyone is in agreement with you; they are not. Please think a bit more before making blanket statements about how "unions are bad because of Detroit's economy."
12/16/09
The real issue here is receiving credit for what you worked on. Many in the industry are creative and hard-working people that feel they "left their mark" on a particular game they worked on and want to receive recognition for it, regardless of their motives. Who are you to say "it's just an ego thing" and "they shouldn't worry about it." Clearly, it's much easier for you to say in your mostly removed and outside perspective. Again, it's not about YOU, it's about the people who feel this way. Thinking "Well, I don't feel this way so no one else should either" is completely misguided and unfair.
**Also, please do not bash unions because you think everyone is in agreement with you; they are not. Please think a bit more before making blanket statements about how "unions are bad because of Detroit's economy."
12/16/09
You can always list the games on your resume, and employers look at that before checking any credits listing sites.
12/16/09
I really hope that people open their eyes to what these men and women pouring out their souls into, and respect them for it. What's being done to these "unsung heroes" feels downright illegal. As an aspiring developer, I salute all of them. Great jobs, guys.
12/16/09
Everywhere in every industry people work their butts off and do stuff that isn't in their 'title' because that is their job and what they get paid for. You get paid to do what you can to get the product out the door and create revenue for your company/studio/etc so they can keep paying you and your co-workers.
12/16/09
I would argue on behalf of the artists for games especially. Would you be okay with someone simply stating that 'Papal Decree' or Pope Julius II was responsible for the painting of the Sistine Chapel? Of course you wouldn't. Not that Modern Warfare 2 is a worthy comparison but you get the idea. People in the gaming industry make a lot of sacrifices in order to ship a product. These people are not asking for an unreasonable return on that investment, just proper credit. And the publisher/developer should be decent enough to see that through.
What is so difficult about tracking down a name and title?
12/16/09
In terms of the making sacrifices, everyone does that. Are my 80 hour weeks less of a sacrifice because I work in chip design instead of game design? (not saying you are saying that, but making the comparison)
Maybe I put too little emphasis on titles in the gaming world though. I just know that in the engineering world if you have the skills of a senior or staff engineer even though you are an associate engineer, you put your skills on your resume and that is what you future employer bases what title they give you and how much they pay you, not what title you had before.
Also to your last question, you are right, they should be able to track down a name. I still think people are lucky that they get credited at all.
12/16/09
I know nothing about chip making, so I will try not to make any judgements. In the gaming world, a title can mean the difference between your next job or not. Certain developers will only hire a Senior Animator if you've already had experience as a Senior elsewhere. That's not to say that your skillset goes unnoticed, but neither do the titles you worked on.
And I am not suggesting that engineers do any less or more of a task on a given title. I just find it ridiculous that a developer would deliberately leave someone out when they've made a clear and tangible contribution to the finished product. I'm sure if my studio rolled me onto a title for a week while we waited for some assets to come through that I wouldn't receive a credit, and that's more than fair. But having that "you should feel lucky" attitude is a completely threadbare argument.
And yes, I do think that there are much more important matters to spend one's time on than a game credit. But these people aren't asking for raises or something that will put the employer at any kind of risk. They are asking to be recognized, along with their colleagues, on a product to which they contributed equally.
12/17/09
I think what I was trying to get across is that in many jobs, most of the work is execution of ones skill and not actually artistry. People train in the tools that allow you to take that clay and turn it into a beautiful game. I train in the tools that allow me to turn specifications and customer demand into a working chip. That is why I was thinking the artistic part is gets pulled too far. Yes, there are plenty of artists that work on games, concept art, writing, all the other stuff I don't know about. I just feel that the guy that is executing the tools he has been trained in to make a game is not much different than other industries peoples execution on the skills they know.
I guess a simple title goes farther in the game industry other than true experience and that sucks. And I'm sorry that I made that generalization. I just thought that actual experience and skill might be worth more to future employers, but I guess not.
12/17/09
My point was not that your wife's or your own position is not difficult, necessary, or important. I quite honestly have no idea what she or you do from day to day and that comment was based on assumptions of my own experience in print design. I stand by the idea that it is just not the same thing as creating art for a game. Saying that the work an artist in the gaming industry does is simply an execution of one's skill is double talk. Of course it's an execution of one's skill. Very few people, if any, simply started down a path with any art form and excelled beyond their peers. Just because someone trains in something does not make it less skillful, in fact, the opposite is true. Those skills are developed over time, recognized, and paid for and promoted accordingly (hopefully). You yourself had to develop a set of skills in order to be a chip maker. So I agree, the fundamental way you go about learning anything is the same. Practice makes perfect. I just don't see how honing a skill makes you less eligible for credit. How does doing the job for which you were hired make you less entitled to the perks? Yes, I am being paid, but the folks above me are also directly benefiting from my work. It's an excellent system of give and take, most of the time.
I apologize if I made it seem like skill is looked upon as less important than title (although I think this is sadly true in almost any industry). Of course if one's skill is refined enough than the rules of competition can and should come into play. But some developers don't like to play by these rules, and don't want to allow the proper credit. That credit plays a big role in being visible to other employers in the marketplace. This, along with your portfolio/resume and networking skills are what get your foot in the door and eventually establish payscale, benefits etc.
Again, I feel that the intentional removal of individual's names who contributed to the authoring of a project is wrong. If the "no big deal" attitude is taken then why can't it just not be a big deal to establish a standard as to how you receive a game credit.
12/16/09
Why does the entertainment industry feel that this is required?
When I'm job hunting I have a resume that lists my contributions, and references to back it up.
I don't work any less hard to put out a release for my company's software projects, or have any less of a "crunch time". When you do the work, and do it well, you get all the recognition and adulation you should need from your company. They keep paying you, give bonuses maybe, and you can look any coworker in the eye and know that they are aware of how important you are... that should be enough for anyone, anything past that is ridiculous ego.
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12/16/09
It's a ridiculous conceit that only the entertainment industry suffers from. Although I *am* interested in who played the zany and complicated supporting character in my favorite movies, or that Seth Green did a voice role in Mass Effect, what does the fact that John Smith was lead environmental artist have to do with my enjoyment of a game?
It's not like I'm IMDB'ing Mr Smith to play games that he designed the palm trees on. If he's good at it, though, he'll be recognized within the industry as a great palm tree designing talent and will be rewarded accordingly, in exactly the same way that turning out a first class feature for the iPhone or a wildly popular extension for Salesforce will get you acclaim in the real world.
12/16/09
You can write all of this in your CV, nobody will prevent you doing so. The real stuff in CV is there and that's what is important when assuming new projects or trying to find a new job at different company. If they ask you why you were not present in the Credits, answer that a number of people were not credited for the work they've done. If the recruiter has a knowledge of the industry they will no doubt agree and understand the situation.
Moreover, Credits are an after-thought, to make you feel good about yourself. The company has no obligation whatsoever to make a Credit list. Just that the developer is "expecting" this shows that they make a direct parallel with the movie industry, ignoring 52735692357 other industries where employees don't get any sort of recognition. They are doing their job, they get paid for that. Everything else is extra.
Then there's the issue of additional work responsibilities not reflected in title/pay/bonuses, but that's common for all industries - very often you will be asked to assume more than your work description demands. Yesterday a security guard was arranging trolleys at my local mart, I doubt they have it in their job description. Ofc it is wrong and there should be a mechanism for preventing this to happen.
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And to those who might consider the credits to be some sort of digital penis type gamer score affair, you have to remeber that very few people intend on making a career out of QA. Look at many games jobs listings "Must have at least two credited titles..."
So again, for it would be bad enough of it were just those looking to break out of QA - but to not give the Devs the nod isn't cool at all...