@milford: It has actually been the symbol of the German army since 1871. During the world war years it was switched to the straight lined Greek cross version. Then as you said in 1956 the standard iron cross was re-adopted.
@milford: The Iron Cross has been in use by the German armed forces in one form or another long before 1956, easily into the early 1800's if not earlier.
@E.E.Woulfe:
I was wondering why I remember the Red Baron having a different Iron Cross than that of the WWII generation, and why the Iron Cross in that picture looked like the Red Baron's...
Thanks for the brief history lesson. XD
I actually never realized that the German army re-adopted the old Iron Cross again.
@AOClaus: You and E.E.Woulfe are right. I probably should have expressed myself more clearly. I was of course referring to the use of the Symbol by the Bundeswehr.
shaun@onelastcontinue promoted this comment
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Michael Dukakis - Curse you baseball gods! was unstarred
One thing I've noticed between Turn 10 and Poly, is that they have diffrent ways of rendering the cars they look diffrent some how? Am I the only one to notice?
@CarlMarssilas: No, i've noticed it since the screen for forza have been coming out. There is something about Forza 3's shaders that make it have an almost cell shaded look in my opinion- I think its just not enough color depth in the paint- in forza the color just gets darker as it becomes more angled relative to the light source, but in GT it seems to shift slightly as it darkens- more how it works in real life. That being said, I think that generally the landscape in forza looks a little better, but its hard to say as I haven't seen much from GT5 proper yet apart from quick cutting car shots.
@CarlMarssilas:
Most definitely. The cars in Forza look a bit more... accentuated? As if they've been touched up for a magazine ad or something. It makes them look more vibrant, where the GT cars basically look like photos, but may come off as a bit "sterile" to some since it's so matter-of-fact in presentation.
I don't have enough basis to compare the scenery. I commented on how good it looked in the new Forza in a screenshot, then someone pointed out other shots that looked as blurry as GT4, so I'm not sure what the state of it is. I do notice in GT the bystanders look excellent if you're zooming past them, and ridiculously fake if you stop and look at them.
@fuchikoma:
Not seeing a single pixel at all in the photos they show, screams "touched up".
ESPECIALLY with only 720p resolution. I can run games 1920x1200 on my PC with 16x AA and still find some pixels somewhere ... those shots are too flawless.
@supo: You can indeed unlock the cars without pre-ordering it. It's not one of those pre-order bonuses where you see others drive lambos while you drive your Skyline.
Again, these cars can be unlocked by anyone who owns the game so you don't need to pre-order if you don't want to.
@-MasterDex-: if GT had a track that was just a 50 mile long straight. any other track and a veyron will have no chance against the better handling cars. except possibly on an oval circuit.
i'd have to pick the lambo or enzo.
@lordofsword: Check out Top gears power lap list sometime (as I posted below). While the veyron isn't the fastest around the track, its number 5, and beats every street legal Aston Martin, Lambo, and ferarri they've tried. it corners decently well, and the acceleration out of the turns, and braking force going in cancel out the slight drop in speed during the turns
@lordofsword: Contrary to popular belief, the Veyron isn't your American muscle car all about power and top speed. The suspension and AWD system is designed to handle its massive weight in corners. The Veyron itself weights very close to a Nissan GT-R and therefore in that sense it is easy to see how a Veyron can still have its ups with handling.
@neko613: I know all about the Veyron, but on a really tight, twisty track like Eigar Nordwand or Cote d'Azure I'm sure something lightweight and agile like an Atom would beat it easily.
I forgot they actually put the Veyron on the TG track, but TG don't allow non-street legal cars, GT does. A Veyron wouldn't come close to a Le Mans racer (like the DBRS9 which lapped in 1.08 on TG) which ignoring the F1 cars are always the fastest in GT games.
Not really sure what I'm trying to say anymore, but there will be and always have been much, much faster cars than the Veyron in every GT game so speed isn't much of a reason to pick that car over the others.
Interesting. I hope they've retuned the race system though, so that you actually need to drive cars somewhat near what the competition drives- in gt4 only Manufacturer events really bothered doing that, but even then, you'd end up racing something like a Merc Gullwing vs an SLK-GTR, which doesn't make much sense.
Even better if they let you choose the cars in the field (at least for arcade mode races), something that I have felt the series has always lacked. Veyron vs other equally scary-fast cars would be nice instead of a random grab bag of cars.
@Vrank92: I usually found that most times the AI couldn't pass because they'd all be running cars which weren't very comparable- especially when running the Muscle Car championship and a 427 or the custom car shows up and just trounces everyone else. I liked GT2 (I think it was that one) as it had HP restrictions. While the idea that you could show up to a race in any car and race is nice, most organized races usually have restrictions and classes that would prevent you from taking a F1 car to a K car race.
@-MasterDex-: Just for quick reference, here are these cars, or their ancestors, and their time and overall rank on the Top Gear Test Track:
6. 1.18:3 - Bugatti Veyron
10. 1:19.0 - Enzo Ferrari
14. 1:19.7 - Nissan GT-R
The fastest Lambo ever is the Lamborghini Murciélago LP670-4 SuperVeloce in the 9 spot at 1:19:00.
And for those keeping track at home, the fastest street legal car to run?
1. 1:17.1 - Gumpert Apollo Sport
Its an ugly ass car, but I hope to god it made it into GT portable and/or GT5
@SacGamer: No, this will let you customize your cars on the same level as Gran Turismo because despite popular belief, go faster stripes don't actually make you go any faster.
@-MasterDex-: I actually don't know what sort of customization the typical Gran Turismo game has. I've seen people put some amazing art on their cars in Forza though. Does Gran Turismo not offer that? Kinda lame if not.
@SacGamer: Kinda lame if not.
I don't see how it is. Honestly, if all you want to do is paint your cars with pretty colours and stickers then there's no reason for you to get Gran Turismo.
Gran Turismo has never been about being in a pimped out ride, it's always been about the cars, the racing and the joy of learning to drive and tune each different car which, for most car enthusiasts, is exactly what makes Gran Turismo the king.
@-MasterDex-: If it's really about the cars, you would WANT that level of customization. Simply picking a color is boring when other games offer so much more. I think in Forza people can even share their designs with others. How does that not blow this game away?
And the gameplay doesn't even look all that much different, really.
@SacGamer: Did you just call a Nissan GTR, Bugatti Veyron and Ferrari Enzo meh!? MEH!? There's a reason that these cars are pre-order bonuses, they're some of the most respected and applauded modern supercars in the world right now....I dont know ANYBODY who would say that every single one of them is 'meh'.
You sir, are unique.
@SacGamer: @SacGamer: @SacGamer: Listen.. this is GT PORTABLE, is there a forza portable I haven't heard of? If you want to start a GT5 vs Forza3 debate do it some place else, we know you guys love to "customize" your cars with crazy stripes, so forza3 is for YOU, GT5 fans like to race more than 8 cars at a time, with nigh races, weather, rally (nascar) all thrown in together with a crazy number of kickass cars. So you choose the one you like the best, but for portables there is no forza, so no stripe customization on the go for you, sir.
I'm sick and tired that in any GT related story there is always someone talking about how the customizations in forza is so superior to GT, who cares? The people who do care already have forza, so stop asking for it on a game that clearly has other things on his priority list. These are different games with different priorities, if you like to pimp cars get forza, stop acting like a god damn preacher.
Edited by ( shake cows, win a ) Milkshake! at 08/04/09 10:34 AM
( shake cows, win a ) Milkshake! was starred
( shake cows, win a ) Milkshake! was unstarred
@SacGamer: Some didn't really say this explicitly but GT lets you customize cars on a mechanics level. It's actually quite educational. Nearly any part of the car is upgradable and tunable. For instance, in GT3 I focused a lot on gear ratios and learned a lot about top speed and acceleration tweaking.
@SacGamer: GT series have mostly kept to wheel options and in gt4 the ability to add a rear spoiler for aerodynamics.
I wouldn't know what else they have down the line as far as customization goes but i'm sure wheels and spoilers will probably just be it :P
I doubt they'd allow user-generated content (forza-carskins) in gran turismo. Gran Turismo was never known for car customization, but more on fine tuning your car for racing.
I find this is where Gran Turismo really draws it's staying power in some long time fans like myself. The want to experiment with different tunings and settings just to get it handling the way we want it, and forever improving on it even by the slightest. This for me expands the replay value of the game far more than visual modifications.
With the right settings and a bit of help from nitrous in gt4, I was able to take first on a 3-lap race using a honda crx against higher-end bmw's and mercedes' :)
the satisfaction of driver and tuning/mechanic skill is really really worth it :)
Not saying car-skins shouldn't be in the next installment, but I won't really care if it isn't~ ;P
@SacGamer: I question your automotive tastes. That there is the worst looking Lamborghini ever made.
@MasterDex: I love my Forza, not only can I make the car drive exactly like I want by mucking with tire alignment, pressure, toe, camber, brakes, etc. I can also make it look different than Blue GT-R, and get people to hate me specifically in an online match.
I've never played Gran Turismo though. What makes it 'the king?' The lack of any good 360 racing wheels makes me very interested in GT5. By your response, I imagine it doesn't touch Need For Speed Underground in customization options as far as aesthetics go, but how indepth does the typical GT go into actual tuning? Can you add a wing for downforce, or any other functional mods that change the appearance?
@ricardofreitas: He made two comments, 'Your church doesn't have a bathroom? Isn't a church with a toilet way better?' is essentially what it came down to, how is that preaching? Your second paragraph, and the paragraph I'm writing now is preaching.
Yes, you're right though, there is no Forza Portable. However, the argument could easily of been about Need For Speed. And there is a Need For Speed portable, with easily addable racing stripes.
@MDevonB: Really bad show of tuning, basically because the quality is low and the music is terrible (and the car is a dog and the racer a spaz), but you can see how you can change suspension options, gear ratios, lsd, tcs, etc etc. Course, this is for GT4, and if polyphony has done anything in the past 7 whatever years then they've hopefully made the purchasing go faster...
I hate this pre-order B.S.! If you want to give someone something for free, then by all means do it. But offer it as DLC (at a cost) for those that don't pre-order it or that are late to the bandwagon.
@PuffTheMagicDragon:
I agree with that sentiment - who wants extra content in a game that isn't good anyway? How do you know it's good until it's released?
But in GT, it would be suicidal not to include these cars in the normal game - unless they're some special Polyphony-picked tuned versions (in which case, they'll dominate online play, and online will be pointless. Whee! Like NFS:Carbon PSP - Murcielago vs Murcielago 24/7!) If it's just those colours of those cars, then... meh, who cares?
@fuchikoma: I get the impression its simply the colours. The cars themselves are in the game - skipping the Bugatti alone would be enough to kill a lot of sales. I think this is just "you have this at the start".
They position Gran Turismo PSP as the game to push the PSPGo, being released simultaneously through the Playstation Store and through retail on the launch of the Go. Then, after all that, they go and make some cars preorder exclusive, meaning the only way to get the full game is to buy the physical, non-Go-compatible copy. It's seriously seems like nobody in Sony talks to eachother sometimes.
@Nobuyuki: Correct me if i´m wrong, but the pre-order must come in a redeem code number, so it would be compatible with both physical or downloadable. Also, i think they will take the Patapon 2 route with this one and sell vouchers.
@Nobuyuki: Couldn’t have put it better myself. Maybe perhaps though, Gamestop will be selling the download copy as well, basically a voucher for downloading the game?
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I was wondering why I remember the Red Baron having a different Iron Cross than that of the WWII generation, and why the Iron Cross in that picture looked like the Red Baron's...
Thanks for the brief history lesson. XD
I actually never realized that the German army re-adopted the old Iron Cross again.
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Agreed, they both look great, but your statements about Forza fits what I have felt as well.
08/04/09
Most definitely. The cars in Forza look a bit more... accentuated? As if they've been touched up for a magazine ad or something. It makes them look more vibrant, where the GT cars basically look like photos, but may come off as a bit "sterile" to some since it's so matter-of-fact in presentation.
I don't have enough basis to compare the scenery. I commented on how good it looked in the new Forza in a screenshot, then someone pointed out other shots that looked as blurry as GT4, so I'm not sure what the state of it is. I do notice in GT the bystanders look excellent if you're zooming past them, and ridiculously fake if you stop and look at them.
08/05/09
Not seeing a single pixel at all in the photos they show, screams "touched up".
ESPECIALLY with only 720p resolution. I can run games 1920x1200 on my PC with 16x AA and still find some pixels somewhere ... those shots are too flawless.
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Again, these cars can be unlocked by anyone who owns the game so you don't need to pre-order if you don't want to.
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i'd have to pick the lambo or enzo.
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I forgot they actually put the Veyron on the TG track, but TG don't allow non-street legal cars, GT does. A Veyron wouldn't come close to a Le Mans racer (like the DBRS9 which lapped in 1.08 on TG) which ignoring the F1 cars are always the fastest in GT games.
Not really sure what I'm trying to say anymore, but there will be and always have been much, much faster cars than the Veyron in every GT game so speed isn't much of a reason to pick that car over the others.
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And @ MasterDex, er, didn't GT5 Prologue have Ferraris? LOTS of them?
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Even better if they let you choose the cars in the field (at least for arcade mode races), something that I have felt the series has always lacked. Veyron vs other equally scary-fast cars would be nice instead of a random grab bag of cars.
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Cant comment on the citreon (#4)
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6. 1.18:3 - Bugatti Veyron
10. 1:19.0 - Enzo Ferrari
14. 1:19.7 - Nissan GT-R
The fastest Lambo ever is the Lamborghini Murciélago LP670-4 SuperVeloce in the 9 spot at 1:19:00.
And for those keeping track at home, the fastest street legal car to run?
1. 1:17.1 - Gumpert Apollo Sport
Its an ugly ass car, but I hope to god it made it into GT portable and/or GT5
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I don't see how it is. Honestly, if all you want to do is paint your cars with pretty colours and stickers then there's no reason for you to get Gran Turismo.
Gran Turismo has never been about being in a pimped out ride, it's always been about the cars, the racing and the joy of learning to drive and tune each different car which, for most car enthusiasts, is exactly what makes Gran Turismo the king.
08/04/09
And the gameplay doesn't even look all that much different, really.
08/04/09
You sir, are unique.
08/04/09
I'm sick and tired that in any GT related story there is always someone talking about how the customizations in forza is so superior to GT, who cares? The people who do care already have forza, so stop asking for it on a game that clearly has other things on his priority list. These are different games with different priorities, if you like to pimp cars get forza, stop acting like a god damn preacher.
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*shudders*
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*cries*
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I wholeheartedly agree.
Man, I have stripes on my briefs too but that doesn't make me go any quicker.
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I wouldn't know what else they have down the line as far as customization goes but i'm sure wheels and spoilers will probably just be it :P
I doubt they'd allow user-generated content (forza-carskins) in gran turismo. Gran Turismo was never known for car customization, but more on fine tuning your car for racing.
I find this is where Gran Turismo really draws it's staying power in some long time fans like myself. The want to experiment with different tunings and settings just to get it handling the way we want it, and forever improving on it even by the slightest. This for me expands the replay value of the game far more than visual modifications.
With the right settings and a bit of help from nitrous in gt4, I was able to take first on a 3-lap race using a honda crx against higher-end bmw's and mercedes' :)
the satisfaction of driver and tuning/mechanic skill is really really worth it :)
Not saying car-skins shouldn't be in the next installment, but I won't really care if it isn't~ ;P
08/04/09
@MasterDex: I love my Forza, not only can I make the car drive exactly like I want by mucking with tire alignment, pressure, toe, camber, brakes, etc. I can also make it look different than Blue GT-R, and get people to hate me specifically in an online match.
I've never played Gran Turismo though. What makes it 'the king?' The lack of any good 360 racing wheels makes me very interested in GT5. By your response, I imagine it doesn't touch Need For Speed Underground in customization options as far as aesthetics go, but how indepth does the typical GT go into actual tuning? Can you add a wing for downforce, or any other functional mods that change the appearance?
@ricardofreitas: He made two comments, 'Your church doesn't have a bathroom? Isn't a church with a toilet way better?' is essentially what it came down to, how is that preaching? Your second paragraph, and the paragraph I'm writing now is preaching.
Yes, you're right though, there is no Forza Portable. However, the argument could easily of been about Need For Speed. And there is a Need For Speed portable, with easily addable racing stripes.
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I agree with that sentiment - who wants extra content in a game that isn't good anyway? How do you know it's good until it's released?
But in GT, it would be suicidal not to include these cars in the normal game - unless they're some special Polyphony-picked tuned versions (in which case, they'll dominate online play, and online will be pointless. Whee! Like NFS:Carbon PSP - Murcielago vs Murcielago 24/7!) If it's just those colours of those cars, then... meh, who cares?
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